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Author Topic: CT22 start-up issue resolved?  (Read 8300 times)

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Offline esincox

  • Posts: 4
CT22 start-up issue resolved?
« on: March 12, 2008, 12:39 PM »
After quite a bit of deliberation (w/myself), I've decided to jump into the Festool Pool, starting with the RO125 and the CT22 package.  But I'm all about due diligence with what I buy, especially when it comes to dropping this much $$ on a sander...

Over the past few months I've noticed several topics concerning the CT22 not powering up properly and the system having to go back in to Festool for repair.  I wouldn't be concerned if I'd only seen it brought up once, but there were enough to make me think twice about the order.  Or maybe there weren't that many more, but because it is the dust extraction unit I was considering it stuck in my mind.  In any case, I was wondering if a definite problem had been located and fixed and if I would get a CT22 w/out that problem if I were to order one today or if I would get a CT22 that might still have that known issue?

While trying to look up issues on the CT22, I started coming across problems people had with the RO125!  A part of me is now concerned about the other half of what I wanted to order.  Then again, a different part of me says, hey, you're looking at a discussion board where the people with the issues are most likely to post something vs. the much higher percentage of people who own the same tool and don't have any problems and aren't going to bother getting onto a discussion group to simply say their tool works as designed.

So are there any significant issues with the RO125 I should be wary of?  Or are these extreme, not the norm, examples?  I understand nothing is perfect in life and in a production batch of 1,000 sanders you're bound to end up with a few that might have issues.

I guess I have concerns because in my mind I equate Festool to Lie-Nielsen.  Let me explain:  If I buy an old Stanley #5 off of ebay, I expect to have to tune the plane and sharpen the blade to get it working the way I want.  If I buy a plane from Lie-Nielsen, for the money I'm spending I expect the plane to make good curls right out of the box.  Likewise, if I buy a Dewalt miter saw from Amazon and get a free 1/4 sheet sander with it, I'll expect it to work like a free 1/4 sheet sander (and not for very long, at that).  But if I drop $360 on a Festool sander, I'll expect it to function pretty much at peak performance right out of the box, er, Systainer (hehe).

So if you can understand, I get a little concerned when I see people saying things like, "You need to run it for about 10 hours to break it in before it will start feeling like they say it should."  For that price, I should have to run it for 10 minutes to break it in before it will start feeling like it is advertised.

Or is this just a case of people buying tools and NOT reading the instructions that come with them (where they would find the best way to run such-and-such tool is on this setting with this dust extractor)?

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Offline CharlesWilson

  • Posts: 458
Re: CT22 start-up issue resolved?
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2008, 01:04 PM »
I don't think there are a lot of problems with either CT22 or the RO sanders. What appears on this forum are those few cases where problems arise. You should be advised, however, that there appears to be a bit of a 'break-in' period for the RO sanders. After a few hours of operation things will smooth out, and there will be little tendency for vibration or erratic movement.

I am not sure how much of the break in period is operator break-in versus mechanical break-in.

Charles
Charles Wilson

Offline Ned

  • Posts: 1146
Re: CT22 start-up issue resolved?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2008, 01:08 PM »
...I get a little concerned when I see people saying things like, "You need to run it for about 10 hours to break it in before it will start feeling like they say it should."  For that price, I should have to run it for 10 minutes to break it in before it will start feeling like it is advertised.

Welcome to FOG, esincox.


When we're talking about break in, I think the Festool-Lie-Neilsen comparison might not be the most appropriate.  Perhaps a better analogy would be mass market power tool vs. Festool on one hand, and mass market passenger car vs. Cummins or Caterpillar diesel on the other.  You have to break the big ones in, but they're going to last a lot longer.

To get the moving parts to their best performance before they leave the factory could easily add 50% to the price, if not double it.  Moving parts are the difference between a Festool and a Lie-Neilsen.

Consider that some cheap sanders (like the freebie DeWalt you mentioned) might have an intended lifespan of 50 hours use.  Just guessing here, but I would not be surprised by such a low number.  They're made to sloppy tolerances and the materials are chosen for that intended lifespan.  Of course they work 100% out of the box--they were made loose to begin with!

Now consider the Festool sanders, which apparently run for decades in the hands of tradesmen.  OK, maybe not decades in all cases, but a long, long time.  Compared to a Festool's intended lifespan, 10 hours use to get everything bedded in is nothing.

In truth, I'm impressed that Festools need to be broken in.  Breaking in is just using it, not trying desperately to tune it or adding aftermarket stuff to cope with design deficiencies.

Ned


« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 04:55 PM by Ned Young »

Offline Fred West

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Re: CT22 start-up issue resolved?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2008, 01:12 PM »
Esincox welcome to the board and the slope. :D I have had the CT22 and RO 150 for sometime now and put many, many hours on both. Not a single issue here. Fred
Domino,TS 75, Trion PS 300, RO 150, ETS 150/5, DTS 400, RS 400, LS 130, RS 2, Deltex 93, CT 33 CT 22, CT Midi & 3 MFT 1080s, OF 1400, C 12, RAS 115, MFK 700, MFT/3 :o)

Offline Daviddubya

  • Posts: 704
  • Arizona, USA
Re: CT22 start-up issue resolved?
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2008, 01:30 PM »
Problems are highlighted by this and other forums.  I suspect you would get very bored reading a long thread that says, "I have one and it works as advertised".  I have used a CT22 for several years, and have three Festool sanders in my home-based shop.  Not a single problem with any of these, or any other of my Festool collection.  Using a Rotex sander does take a little time getting used to the feel.  Utilizing the variable speed feature of the CT22 solves the problems of the sanders sticking to the material surface.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 01:33 PM by Daviddubya »
David W. Falkenstein
in Cave Creek, AZ, USA

Offline bruegf

  • Posts: 805
  • Michigan
Re: CT22 start-up issue resolved?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2008, 02:07 PM »
I've had my CT22 and RO125 for 2 years now and have been very satisfied with them, no regrets at all, inspite of the high initial cost.

Fred
Fred

Offline esincox

  • Posts: 4
Re: CT22 start-up issue resolved?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2008, 02:25 PM »
Thank you all for your quick responses!  Points well taken, especially this one...

I suspect you would get very bored reading a long thread that says, "I have one and it works as advertised". 

I'm always a little wary with spending my "fun" money, especially when it isn't terribly easy to come by.  But in this case I don't think it is justified, so I'll give my favorite (fes)tool dealer a call this week and put in my order before the ever-looming April 1st dealine!

(We can always hope the price increase is some kind of a cruel joke, right?)

Oh... you can call me Ethan.  "esincox" is so... formal.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 02:28 PM by esincox »

Offline Rom Lee

  • Posts: 47
Re: CT22 start-up issue resolved?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2008, 04:11 PM »
A couple of weeks ago I was sanding down a couple of large planked table tops for clients (started with RO150, then to ETS150/3 and finished with the 125).

Halfway through the 2nd top (using the ETS150), I noticed the CT22 had stopped.  Puzzled, I toggled the power switch from Auto to Manual and back to Auto.  Started up the sander and the CT22 powered up. 

I continued sanding and then switched to the 125.  After sanding for 5 minutes, the vacuum stopped.  This time toggling the power switch didn't work. 

I then worked through different combinations of CT22 and sanders to see if I could narrow down which tool was the culprit or if it was the vacuum.  I tried plugging all the sanders to a separate wall outlet and they all worked fine.  However, the vacuum wouldn't when plugged into the same outlet.

Uh oh.  I thought of some of the CT22 posts on FOG.  Bad switch?

Then I started mentally "scrolling" through all the things that might cause the vacuum to cease functioning.  What other activities with the vacuum might have caused the problem?  Then I remembered reading somewhere (it was either FOG or the Festool knowledge base) that the vacuum will not operate if the filter bag is full.

I opened the vacuum and, sure enough, the bag was packed solid with waste.  Then I remembered that I had used the HL850 to plane down the rough stock for the table tops. 

So, I learned two things:

1.  I had assumed (I guess from previous experiences with tools from other manufacturers) that it isn't necessarily the fault of the tool, in this case Festool.  Sometimes it's a matter of user error or lack of familiarity with the tool.  In this case the CT22 was "smarter" than me.  I have two other vacuums (Porter Cable, made in Italy) that even when the filter bags are full will continue to operate.  The problem is that the PC isn't pulling anything in anymore.  Basically the CT22 was just telling me to change the bag (or prevent possible damge to the motor?) by shutting itself off.

2.  Planing makes big chips and fills up bags very quickly.  I don't plane alot but if I did, it might be worthwhile purchasing the Longlife filter bag.

What's my point?  Sometimes the solution to a problem is straightforward ("Is the machine plugged in?").  Sometimes it's not knowing the full capabilities of the machine.  Sometimes it's just broken.  What I've grown to like alot about Festool is that the engineering and quality do a very good job anticipating and complementing the user's efforts and not solely for the edification of an engineer(s) ego.  Most of the Festool line of tools seem designed to be used everyday by everyone.  Yes, the prices are a very real hurdle but over time, seem to be worth it.

By the way, my shop has the following Festool items:  TS75, CT22 (2 ea.  One with boom arm) CT Midi (1 ea.), Domino, C12, HL850, OF1040, RO150, ETS150/3, ETS125, MFT800 (2 ea.), several guide rails and Systainers for other tools.  Other power tools include a Powermatic 2000 table saw, JET 14" bandsaw, JET 15" drill press, Porter Cable 13" lunchbox planer, JET joiner, Makita 10" SCMS, shop made router table with PC motor and Jess'em lift, Makita 18V LiOn impact driver, Bosch jigsaw and "Colt" router.  JET 1 1/2 HP portable single stage dust collect and JET ceiling mounted dust filter.

Hand tools include Veritas bench, block and joiner hand planes.  Backsaws and chisels from Lie Nielsen.  Japanese pull saws. 

What I do:  design and build custom furniture


Offline brandon.nickel

  • Posts: 241
  • Currently Peoria, IL - Eventually back to CO
Re: CT22 start-up issue resolved?
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2008, 09:20 PM »
I have also had a CT33 and RO150 for over 2 years.  The only time my CT has ever switched off is after continuous duty pulling in drywall dust (RO150 + Brilliant 220) for several hours.  I'm not sure exactly why as the bag wasn't full.  The HEPA filters were filthy though.  After washing the filters the vac ran for several more hours with no problems.  I've done this same routine a couple of times.  I'm guessing the vac is hitting a thermal shut-off point or a restriction (intake high vacuum) limit.  In normal woodworking operation it's never been anything but flawless.  Festool doesn't recommend using the CT as a drywall/plaster vac btw.
TS55, MFT1080, Domino, OF1400, LR32, RO150E, DTS400, Trion, CT33

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: CT22 start-up issue resolved?
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2008, 12:20 AM »


Then I started mentally "scrolling" through all the things that might cause the vacuum to cease functioning.  What other activities with the vacuum might have caused the problem?  Then I remembered reading somewhere (it was either FOG or the Festool knowledge base) that the vacuum will not operate if the filter bag is full.





Hi,

    Your CT shuts down when the bag is full?   Is this a Non US version?

Seth

Offline Rom Lee

  • Posts: 47
Re: CT22 start-up issue resolved?
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2008, 01:25 AM »
No.  Purchased at Woodcraft, Seattle. 

Offline SRSemenza

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  • Posts: 9615
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: CT22 start-up issue resolved?
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2008, 01:27 AM »
Hi,

    Huh, my CT33 keeps on going even afterthe bag and inlet are full.


Seth

Offline Rom Lee

  • Posts: 47
Re: CT22 start-up issue resolved?
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2008, 01:58 AM »
Now I can't wait to see if this happens again.  I'm going to search the Forum and the Festool knowledge base, too, and make sure my mind isn't playing tricks on me (it seems to happen more and more to my 56 year old brain).

Offline Forrest Anderson

  • Posts: 1072
Re: CT22 start-up issue resolved?
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2008, 12:55 PM »
I have also had a CT33 and RO150 for over 2 years.  The only time my CT has ever switched off is after continuous duty pulling in drywall dust (RO150 + Brilliant 220) for several hours.  I'm not sure exactly why as the bag wasn't full.  The HEPA filters were filthy though.  After washing the filters the vac ran for several more hours with no problems.  I've done this same routine a couple of times.  I'm guessing the vac is hitting a thermal shut-off point or a restriction (intake high vacuum) limit. 

The CT22/33 manual mentions that there is indeed a thermal cut-out:

----------------
Temperature control.
To prevent overheating, a temperature control device switches the vacuum cleaner off before reaching a ctritical motor temperature is reached (sic)  -  let the vacuum cleaner cool down for about 5 mins
----------------

It sounds as though the filters got clogged up, with the result that the airflow through the machine could no longer keep the motor cool. The motor overheated, and the temperature control device tripped and switched off the motor to let it cool down.

It would seem reasonable that a very full and compacted bag would also result in restricted airflow, causing the motor to overheat and tripping the themal cut-out.

Forrest

Compiler of the Consolidated List of Festool Links - the place to go for Festool reviews, manuals, brochures and videos!

Offline esincox

  • Posts: 4
Re: CT22 start-up issue resolved?
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2008, 03:10 PM »
Wow.  I just had a completely unproductive conversation with Larry at my local woodcraft store.  I wanted to find out if they had the stock to sell me a RO125/CT22 package this week.  He said they had most Festool stuff in stock, but that they didn't sell the RO125 with a CT22 - they only sold it with the Midi or the CT33!

"Sorry, Larry?  I'm looking at the Festool website right now and I'm pretty sure they do... can you please check again?" 

(My mom taught me to always say, "please".)

He searched through the catalog again and after a painful five minutes finally found it.  He gave me the price and I asked him what it would be with taxes (I know I can get it tax-free with free shipping if I buy it on-line, but I really do appreciate and understand the need for supporting local businesses, so I was fully planning on buying from the store just a short 10 minutes from my house). 

After another five minutes (seriously?  Isn't it as simple as (price) x (local tax rate) = (total price)?  I was starting to get a bit agrivated at this point...) he came back with the total price.

I tried to confirm that price would still be good until April 1st.  He said as far as he knew that price would always be good!  I mentioned the price increase after April 1st and he said there was no such thing. 

"Sorry, Larry?"  I said, "I find that interesting because the Woodcraft e-mail I'd just received told me to hurry in and beat the April 1st price increase!  Are you telling me I don't need to hurry in to beat any price increase?"

He said, "If you are saying there is a price increase, then you know more than us, sir."

Wow.  No offense, Woodcraft of Saint Louis, but I'm seriously thinking about buying my Festool from a dealer who does know more than me.


Offline Ned

  • Posts: 1146
Re: CT22 start-up issue resolved?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2008, 03:49 PM »
Ethan--

I too believe in supporting local businesses.  I'd even be willing to pay a bit more, or at least the sales tax.  There are real advantages to a local dealer.

The moment I find a dealer within a 60-mile radius who knows as much and cares as much as Anthony, or Bill, or Bob, or Ron, or Timmy, I'm there.

The most distressing thing about your experience isn't the lack of technical knowledge--there's a great deal to learn about Festools.  The worst is that apparently Larry didn't read the memos about the price increase or the combo packages.  It's good if the seller knows how to use the tools; it's required that they know how to sell them.

They might be useful for that box of Rubin on a Sunday aftermoon, but you do need to find another dealer.

Ned

Offline Rom Lee

  • Posts: 47
Re: CT22 start-up issue resolved?
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2008, 06:06 PM »
Thank you, Forrest.  I thought I had read the reference to the thermal shutoff somewhere.  The brain is intact but my memory is suspect.