Author Topic: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again. (Read 102361 times)

Tinker · « **Reply #210 on:** January 30, 2018, 03:05 PM »

I think you have 30 days from the date of purchase to take it back.

Gregor · « **Reply #211 on:** January 30, 2018, 04:18 PM »

Quote from: andyraines on January 30, 2018, 01:00 PM

I’ve been using it lightly for 3 weeks now and today

You're within the '30 days money back no questions asked', so you can simply return it for a full refund.

Peter Halle · « **Reply #212 on:** January 30, 2018, 04:22 PM »

Unfortunately I believe the poster is in a country where the return period is 15 days.

Peter

IndyMike · « **Reply #213 on:** August 28, 2018, 10:08 AM »

I just picked up the TS 55 and the CT 36 and was looking at getting the Kapex to replace my Kobalt miter whose dust collection is atrocious... I was directed to this thread and after reading this and doing a bit more research on my own - Festool has lost a $1,400+ sale here.

It seems to me that it really shouldn't be that hard for Festool to identify what is going wrong with these saws and to update a part/make a change to resolve it.

I do understand nothing lasts forever - and there will be outliers that fail much sooner, and that's what a warranty is for. That said - there is no way I would spend $1,400+ for a saw that may or may not last more than a couple of years.

brentasmith · « **Reply #214 on:** September 05, 2018, 10:27 PM »

Your usage puts you in an entirely different category than the ones experiencing failures... in other words your opinion isn't relevant what so ever

Quote from: jimbo51 on July 04, 2017, 09:46 AM

I bought my Kapex soon after they went on sale in the US. I had to get the miter adjuster fix that came out soon after the introduction.

My use ranges from very light to light by the standards of most people on this forum. I have had no issues with the saw like are being described here.

In defense of Festool, the percentage of motor failures appears to be very low. For example, if the failure rate is less than 1 per 1000, then it can be very difficult to pinpoint the cause.

After such a long time, they are now in a difficult position in a marketing and legal terms.

For marketing, it is tricky to make things right when doing so admits you have failures you do not understand. Hardly a great position for a premium tool company.

From a legal point of view, making it right for the customer could be viewed as admission of a problem that has been long known and ignored. That might put them in a position of being accused of knowingly selling defective tools. That would not be tolerated by any corporate legal team.

Festool's best hope is to discover a cause that can be recognized as unknowable in the general sense. If they could claim that, then the above issues can be avoided and customers can be dealt with in a fair manner.

kevinculle · « **Reply #215 on:** September 06, 2018, 07:52 AM »

Festool has had plenty of time to evaluate the Kapex motor failures. Even if they are only occuring at 1,000 ppm (1 per thousand) there has been a steady drumbeat here of consistent failure posts for what, at least two years. Imagine the failure resulted in injury to the operator rather than just a dead saw...I suspect there would have been both a fix and a retrofit kit for all saws in the field some time ago. This failure presents the kind of risk to Festool's and the Kapex's reputation that Festool should take a belt and suspenders approach and substantially upgrade all of the parts and subsystems in the Kapex that are in the failure path. I suspect instead they are continuing to build a failure prone tool while they figure out the minimum cost and disruption to their tooling and process revision that is likely to work. Meanwhile every week or so another Kapex owner sees the smoke let out of his pride and joy SCMS...pity!

SRSemenza · « **Reply #216 on:** September 06, 2018, 09:15 AM »

Quote from: brentasmith on September 05, 2018, 10:27 PM

Your usage puts you in an entirely different category than the ones experiencing failures... in other words your opinion isn't relevant what so ever

Quote from: jimbo51 on July 04, 2017, 09:46 AM
I bought my Kapex soon after they went on sale in the US. I had to get the miter adjuster fix that came out soon after the introduction.

My use ranges from very light to light by the standards of most people on this forum. I have had no issues with the saw like are being described here.

In defense of Festool, the percentage of motor failures appears to be very low. For example, if the failure rate is less than 1 per 1000, then it can be very difficult to pinpoint the cause.

After such a long time, they are now in a difficult position in a marketing and legal terms.

For marketing, it is tricky to make things right when doing so admits you have failures you do not understand. Hardly a great position for a premium tool company.

From a legal point of view, making it right for the customer could be viewed as admission of a problem that has been long known and ignored. That might put them in a position of being accused of knowingly selling defective tools. That would not be tolerated by any corporate legal team.

Festool's best hope is to discover a cause that can be recognized as unknowable in the general sense. If they could claim that, then the above issues can be avoided and customers can be dealt with in a fair manner.

Of course it is. Especially since the failures cover a wide range of users and the terminology that people use such as "light", "everyday", "heavy", "moderate", etc are all relative. And even if saws that get "light" usage don't fail, that is still useful info.

Seth

deepcreek · « **Reply #217 on:** September 06, 2018, 10:06 AM »

I must admit that the repeated threads on Kapex motor failure have affected me.

I've had my Kapex going on ten years and originally used it to trim out a house I built for my Mom. It was Craftsman style with custom molding and block paneling so lots of work.

Now my Kapex lives a life of luxury in a shop environment for a few cuts here and there. Definitely not every day and often not even weekly.

Yesterday, I had to make a couple hundred cuts for a large project.

With each start of the motor, I found myself worrying if this would be the cut where it died.

I know it's irrational but the perception is there.

Managing perception is as important as managing reality.

In my opinion, Festool's silence on the matter has hurt its reputation.

tjbnwi · « **Reply #218 on:** September 06, 2018, 10:13 AM »

One of mine let out the magic smoke yesterday (the one that's about 10 years old)--don't have time right now to replace the armature--went out and bought another one.

The saw(s) have made money from the first day I've owned them.

It's not the first brand miter saw I've had cook an armature, won't be the last.

Tom

jimbo51 · « **Reply #219 on:** September 06, 2018, 10:55 AM »

"Your usage puts you in an entirely different category than the ones experiencing failures... in other words your opinion isn't relevant what so ever."

My opinions are based on the experiences reported in this thread and on senior management behavior I witnessed working in two large companies. They are not based on my personal experience with the Kapex.

My opinions were about the challenges Festool is facing in dealing with this issue. Which of the challenges I mentioned relate to my level of saw usage?

Cheese · « **Reply #220 on:** September 06, 2018, 11:59 AM »

Quote from: deepcreek on September 06, 2018, 10:06 AM

With each start of the motor, I found myself worrying if this would be the cut where it died.

I know it's irrational but the perception is there.

I certainly share your angst...everytime I pull the trigger it makes me think about these Kapex threads. Is today the day?

The only other piece of equipment I've owned that's caused me the same amount of trepidation when I used it was a 1958 Chevy Impala with a 348.

Fire it up...cross your fingers...and hope you make it home. But that was 50 years ago and it was kind of accepted back then, this is now 2018, expectation levels have changed over the last 50 years.

ChuckM · « **Reply #221 on:** September 06, 2018, 12:10 PM »

Quote from: jimbo51 on September 06, 2018, 10:55 AM

"Your usage puts you in an entirely different category than the ones experiencing failures... in other words your opinion isn't relevant what so ever."

My opinions are based on the experiences reported in this thread and on senior management behavior I witnessed working in two large companies. They are not based on my personal experience with the Kapex.

Useful and relevant opinions are not just limited to experience. People can offer helpful ideas or even advice based on observations and analysis, drawing on other experiences and assessments of theirs.

A case in point is Peter Drucker whom I admire for his insightful views and writings on organizations. He offered advice to governments, businesses, and non-profit entities. He had never been a CEO, a marketer, etc., but this Austrian thinker predicted, among other things, privatization and decentralization; the rise of Japan to economic world power; the decisive role of marketing (Facebook, Google. etc. were not even born!); and lifelong learning (the recent oil recession has caused many to take a new career path as their old jobs never came back).

I may never have used an XL (I have), but don't discount my opinion on it (if I have any), as I have had solid field experience with the DF500. Don't even discount the opinions of others who have only used a biscuit joiner but not a Domino joiner, because we shall look at the opinions themselves to decide what they are worth. Many tablesaw users, for example, are unsafe users, but I would not listen to them for their opinions on how to work safely in a shop, no matter how "heavily" their saws are used.

IndyMike · « **Reply #222 on:** September 07, 2018, 08:36 PM »

So is it just the armature that needs replaced when they let out the magic smoke? Is it an expensive replacement? Can it be done by the end user?

SRSemenza · « **Reply #223 on:** September 07, 2018, 11:33 PM »

Quote from: IndyMike on September 07, 2018, 08:36 PM

So is it just the armature that needs replaced when they let out the magic smoke? Is it an expensive replacement? Can it be done by the end user?

Armature mainly but there could be other parts.

Yes.

That really depends on the end user. But for three years it's on Festool.

Seth

Cheese · « **Reply #224 on:** September 08, 2018, 11:09 AM »

Quote from: IndyMike on September 07, 2018, 08:36 PM

So is it just the armature that needs replaced when they let out the magic smoke? Is it an expensive replacement? Can it be done by the end user?

See reply 72 in this thread.

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/another-dead-kapex-55656/

demographic · « **Reply #225 on:** September 09, 2018, 10:29 AM »

Is the Kapex 60 Brushless?
If it is I iimagine I'll wait till Festool make a cordless version of that and keep using my old but reliable Makita 110 volt chopsaw in the meantime. Thats been working fine since 2003 or so.
Can't see me buying the 120 anyway as its a big numb thing to move about on a daily basis and I don't need the extra capacity now that I have a HKC.
In the UK we have also kind of got out of the massive crown moulding fashion so its very rare indeed that I need the capacity in both directions the 120 has.
If I had a woodwork shop I might think otherwise but I'm out o site every working day and for me the big ones size outweighs its usefullness. The 60 however is appealing, as long as its reliable and ideally cordless.
Possibly with a cord that plugs into the battery housing like the new DeWalt flexvolt tools.

Cheese · « **Reply #226 on:** September 09, 2018, 11:10 AM »

Quote from: demographic on September 09, 2018, 10:29 AM

Is the Kapex 60 Brushless?

I don't believe it is.

IndyMike · « **Reply #227 on:** September 09, 2018, 01:02 PM »

Kapex is not brushless.

Tim Raleigh · « **Reply #228 on:** November 04, 2018, 04:45 PM »

Quote from: tjbnwi on September 06, 2018, 10:13 AM

It's not the first brand miter saw I've had cook an armature, won't be the last.

Pretty well sums up my attitude. Use tools, break tools, fix tools finish project.
Tim

Kodi Crescent · « **Reply #229 on:** November 08, 2018, 06:37 PM »

This is the perfect opportunity to make a parody song to the tune of Cheech and Chong's "Up in Smoke".

"Up in smoke, that's where my Kapex goes..."

john5mt · « **Reply #230 on:** January 05, 2019, 12:51 PM »

Just to help with the documentation bought mine in 2013 died 12/19/2018

I used to believe it was a problem some people were having just because they were lemons.

Pretty sure now every kapex is a lemon.

I've been told the same BS
don't use them on the same circuit as a CT
They're not meant to be used in a production capacity.

BULL

every advertisement for the stupid thing shows it hooked up to a CT in a production environment.

between this and my carvex exploding my confidence in festool longevity is gone.

Gonna fix it because when it runs i really like it. But had to buy a big Yellow to get me through till the parts show up. Probably put an extra armature on the shelf so im not forced to wait for the repair next time.

Coen · « **Reply #231 on:** January 15, 2019, 06:21 PM »

Quote from: john5mt on January 05, 2019, 12:51 PM

I've been told the same BS
don't use them on the same circuit as a CT
They're not meant to be used in a production capacity.

BULL

every advertisement for the stupid thing shows it hooked up to a CT in a production environment.

Probably because the advertisements were shot in Germany, where they use the 230V version. Default circuit there being ~16A you can pick and match anything and get away with plugging it into the CT. It says "2400W" max here for what can be plugged into the CT.

kevinculle · « **Reply #232 on:** January 15, 2019, 08:06 PM »

Quote from: Coen on January 15, 2019, 06:21 PM

Probably because the advertisements were shot in Germany, where they use the 230V version. Default circuit there being ~16A you can pick and match anything and get away with plugging it into the CT. It says "2400W" max here for what can be plugged into the CT.

There is an old engineering principle that a product needs to be engineered for the context you sell it into. So if you are a car manufacturer whose home market is a temperate meticulously paved flatland and you decide to sell cars into the USA they'd better work in the very cold and the very hot on dirt and gravel roads and go up and down hills, etc. If the Kapex depends on German electrical supplies to be reliable it should only be sold in Germany or the EU. Don't get me wrong such mismatches can show up as a product is rolled out but there is no excuse for not fixing it 10 years later!

Coen · « **Reply #233 on:** January 15, 2019, 08:27 PM »

Quote from: kevinculle on January 15, 2019, 08:06 PM

Quote from: Coen on January 15, 2019, 06:21 PM

Probably because the advertisements were shot in Germany, where they use the 230V version. Default circuit there being ~16A you can pick and match anything and get away with plugging it into the CT. It says "2400W" max here for what can be plugged into the CT.

There is an old engineering principle that a product needs to be engineered for the context you sell it into. So if you are a car manufacturer whose home market is a temperate meticulously paved flatland and you decide to sell cars into the USA they'd better work in the very cold and the very hot on dirt and gravel roads and go up and down hills, etc. If the Kapex depends on German electrical supplies to be reliable it should only be sold in Germany or the EU. Don't get me wrong such mismatches can show up as a product is rolled out but there is no excuse for not fixing it 10 years later!

With 110V you will always keep problems. I like to wonder why the US doesn't adopt 230 Vac and the metric system. After biting the bitter bullet once it's only savings. Or lead the way with 350 Vdc or something.

But are the Kapex saws sold today still the same internally? I hope they changed what was broken?

SouthRider · « **Reply #234 on:** January 15, 2019, 10:07 PM »

"I like to wonder why the US doesn't adopt 230 Vac and the metric system. After biting the bitter bullet once it's only savings. Or lead the way with 350 Vdc or something."

Because EVERY OTHER TOOL MADE BY EVERYBODY ELSE lasts for endless years on 110V in the US, and we don't need to retrofit the largest consumer market in the world over one bad product.

Cheese · « **Reply #235 on:** January 15, 2019, 10:30 PM »

Quote from: SouthRider on January 15, 2019, 10:07 PM

Because EVERY OTHER TOOL MADE BY EVERYBODY ELSE lasts for endless years on 110V in the US, and we don't need to retrofit the largest consumer market in the world over one bad product.

Amen...and that was a great statement...certainly made my day.

As an aside, I own a Milwaukee Holeshooter drill purchased by my father in 1948. He used it every day on the job in the HVAC industry until he retired in 1985. It's had 4-5 sets of brushes installed but it still works to this very day. It's been dropped from scaffolding and been swung by its cord. It still survives...it still works like when it was new. There's a lesson to learn here.

Coen · « **Reply #236 on:** January 16, 2019, 02:05 AM »

Quote from: SouthRider on January 15, 2019, 10:07 PM

"I like to wonder why the US doesn't adopt 230 Vac and the metric system. After biting the bitter bullet once it's only savings. Or lead the way with 350 Vdc or something."

Because EVERY OTHER TOOL MADE BY EVERYBODY ELSE lasts for endless years on 110V in the US, and we don't need to retrofit the largest consumer market in the world over one bad product.

Lol, we retrofitted our entire country decades ago. Now pure savings. Double the power over the same copper, half the copper for the same power or half the losses with the same copper.

Job and Knock · « **Reply #237 on:** January 16, 2019, 03:54 AM »

Quote from: john5mt on January 05, 2019, 12:51 PM

I've been told the same BS
don't use them on the same circuit as a CT
They're not meant to be used in a production capacity.

One of the reasons for buying Festool, for buying Kapex, is the superior dust extraction. And in the face of what we have in Europe, that is legislation mandating the use of class M dust extraction at all times on all tools which cut wood and wood-based products, it has become absolutely necessary to run a saw through a vacuum with automatic start. Secondly, if they aren't meant to be used in a production capacity why do Festool sell a 110 volt version of the Kapex in the UK? In this country we have two different voltages - 230 volts (nominal) @ 50Hz for general/domestic use and 110 volts (55+55 volts centre-tapped) @ 50Hz specifically for use on construction sites and in docks, harbours and on railways works. By selling any 110 volt tool here you are effectively stating that it is suitable for use in a production environment. This is why you rarely see low-cost Chinese power tools in 110 volt - they just aren't durable enough.

Does this mean Festool now saying that my £1500 saw/extension combination isn't suitable for the purpose I bought it for? Where did that comment originate?

hemlock · « **Reply #238 on:** January 16, 2019, 12:03 PM »

I have refrained from weighing in on this issue for quite some time. I re-tooled my shop over the past 7 years with mostly Festool. I started because of the need for dust collection and got hooked on that and their quality. Overall, I am happy with them. I appreciate their build quality, dust collection, and performance--especially those that are innovative (e.g., domino). I have 15 different Festool "tools" (including MFT and LR32). I do not have a Kapex. I have a Bosch Glide 12" CMS. I just couldn't justify the additional cost of the Kapex years ago. The Bosch has performed extremely well; however, recently I began reconsidering replacing the Bosch with a Kapex for better dust collection. I will not until the Kapex issue is addressed by Festool. I understand Festool reads these posts. I hope they do. Frankly, its insulting to their loyal customer base to, at best, "explain away" the problem or, at worse, seemingly ignore it. As a constructive comment for the problem, I hope the US version of the REB includes some explanation of how the motor in it addresses previous problems (hopefully it does). However, I suspect the liability of acknowledging there was a problem will prevent that from happening; in which case I will not upgrade my CMS, and my view of Festool will be diminished more than it already is.

ChuckM · « **Reply #239 on:** January 16, 2019, 12:21 PM »

Like many of the current owners of a Kapex, I am concerned about the possibility of a motor failure in my saw. But since I have the saw and it is the only CMS I have, I just enjoy it to the fullest. For those of you who are waiting for the release of a new Kapex that is "motor-issue free," your waiting may never end. But that is ok as long as whatever CMS you have is all that you need.

Festool has not officially acknowledged the existence of any motor deficiency in its Kapex, and we as consumers or owners do not know either how bad the motor issue really is. Waiting won't solve anything.

I know I wouldn't have waited because by the time I had finished waiting (if there was such a thing), my woodworking life might have come to an end, given my age. In the meantime without waiting, I have used my Kapex on many of my builds, with excellent precision and dust control. The risk (of failure) is worth taking in my case.