Author Topic: NEW! Festool STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table (US)  (Read 10961 times)

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Offline jobsworth

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Re: NEW! Festool STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table (US)
« Reply #90 on: April 25, 2020, 09:56 PM »
@closenough

FYI
this has happened before. When festool has a limited time offer w a cut off date. Dealers order qtys for themselves to sell. Its not unusual. That limitedtime  installers set in the mini systainer with the clear lid though originally limited order can stil be found for sale at dealers.


Online Gregor

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Re: NEW! Festool STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table (US)
« Reply #91 on: April 26, 2020, 04:48 AM »
this has happened before. When festool has a limited time offer w a cut off date. Dealers order qtys for themselves to sell. Its not unusual. That limitedtime  installers set in the mini systainer with the clear lid though originally limited order can stil be found for sale at dealers.
Could be a possible explanation, but making the table a one-time thing would (at least from my professional perspective) make no sense as a business decision. So I rate this as unlikely, but what do I know...

The communication we received about the STM 1800 was the following, in part:
Quote
April 13, 2020 - All orders are due and finalized. No orders or changes will be accepted after this date.
The 'in part' thing could hold the key to this, should another part hold an information like 'delivery date for initial orders will be $date'.

Because in that context it makes perfectly sense to have a deadline for dealers after which orders can no longer be processes for that delivery window as the stuff will already be inside a container (and that already be on its way on a truck/train/ship).

While at it, a little rant about 'one-time' things:

The whole concept is flawed at the core. Imagine being the one deciding for (or against) the 'one-time' marketing ploy:
Either thing is as good as advertised, then your crime against humanity of withholding thing from mankind (the part that did not order that one moment, eg. since not being born yet) would deliver you straight down there where lava, fire and brimstone is waiting (thanks, wordfilter, for disallowing 'homestead of evil in four letters') when you hand the spoon... or thing is garbage, then you would end there too for trying to con people into buying garbage thing using it's rare, only now, don't miss out, you'll regret not doing it now and similar messages aimed at manipulating their brain state to favor your interest instead of theirs. Every way I looked at it so far I end up with either the product, the seller or both to be avoided.

So why not, as a novel approach to business, be honest about what is going on?

If your product is brilliant but you have no idea how much you can sell (and/or you do not have the upfront money to create it): no problem, make a pre-sale where instead of 'one-time' pre-planting one foot firmly into the lava (through claiming that this will be it, with the consequences outlined above) you are perfectly open about Now is a chance to get thing now. Another batch will happen should enough demand exist (verified through a pre-sale like this, opening directly after this production run) to make another production run feasible. But at this point in time it is unknown to us when (or even if) this will happen, but given enough demand we will certainly make more of thing (simply because not doing that would both be a sin (see above) and a bad business decision (should be self-explanatory)). So order now to get one delivered at $date for sure!

That would motivate me (and I think I'm not alone with that view) way more more to buy thing than the 'one-time' approach, simply because I prefer dealing with honest men taking pride in providing excellent products at fair conditions (to both sides of their location in the production chain) .

Please take with a grain of salt, whole bag (if needed) in case you currently do what I despise and feel like I just wronged you.
Note to moderators: lockdown made me itchy and worsened my intellectual tourette, please have mercy.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 05:27 AM by Gregor »

Offline Shane Holland

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Re: NEW! Festool STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table (US)
« Reply #92 on: April 26, 2020, 10:41 AM »
The 'in part' thing could hold the key to this, should another part hold an information like 'delivery date for initial orders will be $date'.

Because in that context it makes perfectly sense to have a deadline for dealers after which orders can no longer be processes for that delivery window as the stuff will already be inside a container (and that already be on its way on a truck/train/ship).

@Gregor the reason I posted only that portion is that Festool prohibits dealers from sharing their communications publicly. The delivery date is the same for all orders and all dealers, mid-September.
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Offline DeformedTree

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Re: NEW! Festool STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table (US)
« Reply #93 on: April 26, 2020, 11:53 AM »


If your product is brilliant but you have no idea how much you can sell (and/or you do not have the upfront money to create it): no problem, make a pre-sale where instead of 'one-time' pre-planting one foot firmly into the lava (through claiming that this will be it, with the consequences outlined above) you are perfectly open about Now is a chance to get thing now. Another batch will happen should enough demand exist (verified through a pre-sale like this, opening directly after this production run) to make another production run feasible. But at this point in time it is unknown to us when (or even if) this will happen, but given enough demand we will certainly make more of thing (simply because not doing that would both be a sin (see above) and a bad business decision (should be self-explanatory)). So order now to get one delivered at $date for sure!


Correct, set them up as batch1 batch2.  I might even say say up front there will be a second batch, but everything beyond that is unknown based on sales.  This way people who are interested but need to see the product first can, they will just have to wait to the second round, and if they don't commit then, they loose their chance if no more batches are made. Committing a grand to something you won't see for half a year is rough, if they were a small no name company, no one would go for it.

Batch making stuff if a good option for products.  Festool should consider this for a lot of NAINA.   Batch of metric tools (well they should just bring them back in full), but also try things like 230V tools. Keep it easy and do like Mafell does and just sell them with the German plugs on them (really they just sell the full German model as is), people can just have a small shucko plug environment or they can mod if they want.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: NEW! Festool STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table (US)
« Reply #94 on: April 26, 2020, 12:34 PM »
When something is labelled as "One-time," it should be "One-time."

The marketing ploy of "One-time Tool" with the clear intention based on past behavior of producing and selling more of it in the future (say, a year or two later after the demand builds up) is a lie to me. Period.


« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 12:36 PM by ChuckM »

Online Gregor

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Re: NEW! Festool STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table (US)
« Reply #95 on: April 26, 2020, 02:54 PM »
The 'in part' thing could hold the key to this, should another part hold an information like 'delivery date for initial orders will be $date'.

Because in that context it makes perfectly sense to have a deadline for dealers after which orders can no longer be processes for that delivery window as the stuff will already be inside a container (and that already be on its way on a truck/train/ship).

@Gregor the reason I posted only that portion is that Festool prohibits dealers from sharing their communications publicly. The delivery date is the same for all orders and all dealers, mid-September.
It wasn't ment as a criticism from my side (as I expected some 'ballclamps' style paperwork a dealer has to sign with his own blood prior to getting stuff), just tried to transport the perspective that an information out of context is more likely to be misunderstood.

Batch making stuff if a good option for products.  Festool should consider this for a lot of NAINA.   Batch of metric tools (well they should just bring them back in full), but also try things like 230V tools. Keep it easy and do like Mafell does and just sell them with the German plugs on them (really they just sell the full German model as is), people can just have a small shucko plug environment or they can mod if they want.
A good while back I dumped a long list of thoughs into the Ideenoffensive (their externalized brainstorming), among these was to give an IT capable intern two weeks to setup a site where US folks can register, select their local dealer and directly order all NAINA stuff they want, pay with credit card, the stuff be shipped with the next container coming anyway (so no risk to festool at all as of no inventory cost as all shipped product is already sold) and finally delivered through their normal dealer network (so these get their cut, giving them incentive to order NAINA stuff to showcase to their customers - and possibly even to stock up on it so they can offer 'have it now' (instead of order and wait some weeks for the next container to arrive) as a service.

Never heard anything about it again, sadly. No idea why they didn't go for it, total cost (my projection, I do such things for a living) for the whole thing would have been less than 5k€ (meaning: what the intern would actually have gotten paid)... which they (as I estimated) would have recouped within the first few hours of that thing going beta through a post here on the FOG (asking interested users to test it, no public advertisement for it till all bugs have been squashed to not repeat the 'new website' dumpster fire).

(edit: it's NAINA)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 02:52 AM by Gregor »

Online Gregor

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Re: NEW! Festool STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table (US)
« Reply #96 on: April 26, 2020, 03:01 PM »
When something is labelled as "One-time," it should be "One-time."

The marketing ploy of "One-time Tool" with the clear intention based on past behavior of producing and selling more of it in the future (say, a year or two later after the demand builds up) is a lie to me. Period.
I think I already made my point about it always being evil and/or stupid, regardless of it being a lie or not... there IMHO is nothing positive in the concept, for both seller and buyer.

YMMV.

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: NEW! Festool STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table (US)
« Reply #97 on: April 26, 2020, 04:23 PM »
The "kickstarter" model is what "one time tool" should be.  If you can get people to commit to an order to cover the cost to make it, good, and give them a break for it, then have regular production.

Of course even big companies have tried to corrupt that process by running kickstarters, which just goes against the whole concept. There is some logic to them doing it, but when you have the budget, and money and would have made it without doing a kickstarter, just do it without.

Offline JimH2

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Re: NEW! Festool STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table (US)
« Reply #98 on: April 27, 2020, 10:34 AM »
I think I already made my point about it always being evil and/or stupid, regardless of it being a lie or not... there IMHO is nothing positive in the concept, for both seller and buyer.

YMMV.

Having spoke the owner of Woodpeckers who are known for making one-time tools the premise is simple. They can make small the various products they offer so long as they are small runs where the sales are a lock. I don't know of anytime they have cancelled a product for lack of pre-sales. If they had to maintain an inventory of all the products they make they could not do so as maintaining an inventory in hopes a few sales a year does not work. One-time tool sales also help a company employ more people than they would if they only sold a handful of products or just outsourced the whole operation to China.

Most people look at it as an opportunity to buy something that would not otherwise be made. I will not criticize anyone who brings products to market as it is non-trivial and expensive. If the product is so good that it warrants be added to their regular products that too is great because they found a product that has a wider acceptance.

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: NEW! Festool STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table (US)
« Reply #99 on: April 27, 2020, 09:44 PM »
I think I already made my point about it always being evil and/or stupid, regardless of it being a lie or not... there IMHO is nothing positive in the concept, for both seller and buyer.

YMMV.

Having spoke the owner of Woodpeckers who are known for making one-time tools the premise is simple. They can make small the various products they offer so long as they are small runs where the sales are a lock. I don't know of anytime they have cancelled a product for lack of pre-sales. If they had to maintain an inventory of all the products they make they could not do so as maintaining an inventory in hopes a few sales a year does not work. One-time tool sales also help a company employ more people than they would if they only sold a handful of products or just outsourced the whole operation to China.

Most people look at it as an opportunity to buy something that would not otherwise be made. I will not criticize anyone who brings products to market as it is non-trivial and expensive. If the product is so good that it warrants be added to their regular products that too is great because they found a product that has a wider acceptance.

But that answer makes no sense.  You don't have to keep an item always in stock.  Most companies don't do that.  You make stuff in batches.  You know how well it sells, so that dictates how often you make a batch or how big.  Some batches might sit there for years, nothing wrong with it, it might just not be a quick seller, and or the set up time/effort drives making a large batch even if it sits for a while.  If a batch runs out, you just let customers know it's out, and if you intend to make more.

If it's a new product and you don't know if it will sell well, make a small batch, go from there.

Plenty of companies will take orders over a course of a year for something, then do a manufacturing run. It's way easier and cheaper than making a couple items at a time/day. It would basically be madness to have nothing around and schedule the workers based on orders thru the course of the day. "Bill, go make a 8" square", "Bob go make a 6" triangle and cut a wood box for it while you are at it",

Thus this gets back to the Kickstarter model, get orders for the first batch to see if there is market to make it, then if there is, do it, everything after that is demand. I think Festool is basically doing this here.  If later on they make another offering of it but the price is higher, then the "supporters" got a discount for their support.  Obviously it's a bit odd in that they are making them normally for the rest of the world.  In this case it's less of a support to manufacture and more of a support to import.

Telling folks it's "one time". and then down the road you make it regularly is lying to people.  If you are just trialling the market, come up with a new name for what you are doing. Lots of companies put products in their stores, see how they sell and then decided if these stay, become a regular product, or never come back, or get a few adjustments for the next try.  IKEA is a great model of this.  Stuff that worked out well stays forever, some stuff gets adjusted for a second try or 2 to see if they can make it work, other stuff comes and is gone quick.

We may never know why Festool did it like this. I really wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being something like a safety sticker or some very minor thing they have to do for the US.  So they decided the way to do it is just do a batch and have the plant adjust for one minor thing and ship them.  Of course this is no different than what they do for all the tools normaly.  Obviously on any given day, run, they just make a version of a tool for one region/country,  then switch.  A German TS55 doesn't get followed by a US TS55, followed by a UK TS55 followed by 2 German TS 55s and then ....   It's batch made.  Maybe there is some customs benefit to shipping them all at once verses doing the paperwork over and over.


Offline Distinctive Interiors

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Re: NEW! Festool STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table (US)
« Reply #100 on: April 28, 2020, 03:18 AM »
When something is labelled as "One-time," it should be "One-time."

The marketing ploy of "One-time Tool" with the clear intention based on past behavior of producing and selling more of it in the future (say, a year or two later after the demand builds up) is a lie to me. Period.

Perhaps I've missed something here,....But can anyone show me where Festool have stated that this STM 1800 is a "One Time Tool"....???

The STM is available to us here in Europe and I can find no mention that it is a limited time offer. I know that not everything Festool make is available in North America, perhaps they are just testing the waters prior to its general release....?

An old expression that springs to my mind whilst reading this thread......"Dont look a gift horse in the mouth".
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 03:23 AM by Distinctive Interiors »

Offline Shane Holland

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Re: NEW! Festool STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table (US)
« Reply #101 on: April 28, 2020, 09:12 AM »
Perhaps I've missed something here,....But can anyone show me where Festool have stated that this STM 1800 is a "One Time Tool"....???

@Distinctive Interiors I try to always put "(US)" in the subject for my posts when they are US-specific. Festool USA had offered dealers a one-time opportunity to order the STM 1800 through 4/13. The same may or may not be true in other countries, but I believe the STM 1800 is a full-time offering elsewhere.
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Offline Distinctive Interiors

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Re: NEW! Festool STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table (US)
« Reply #102 on: April 28, 2020, 04:53 PM »
Perhaps I've missed something here,....But can anyone show me where Festool have stated that this STM 1800 is a "One Time Tool"....???

@Distinctive Interiors I try to always put "(US)" in the subject for my posts when they are US-specific. Festool USA had offered dealers a one-time opportunity to order the STM 1800 through 4/13. The same may or may not be true in other countries, but I believe the STM 1800 is a full-time offering elsewhere.

Hi Shane,

My apologies if you thought I was having a pop at you, but on the contrary!

It was other posters comments that the STM 1800 was a one time tool, in a similar way to how Woodpeckers sell & market some of their tools that drove me to make my post.( I own quite a few and really like Woodpeckers stuff by the way.....) The way I read your first post in this thread, suggested that this was/is a limited time introductory offer....and a very good one at that! I can't find anywhere in any of Festools public information either here in Europe or over there in North America, that suggests that this is a one time tool.....?

Tim.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 04:59 PM by Distinctive Interiors »

Online Gregor

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Re: NEW! Festool STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table (US)
« Reply #103 on: April 30, 2020, 10:22 AM »
An old expression that springs to my mind whilst reading this thread......"Dont look a gift horse in the mouth".
Which is an old expression, these days we know that a BBQ when the thing drops dead can have severe health implications (as there likely is a reason why it fell over)... leading to you being left with a decomposing corpse that you have to dispose of... which comes with a price tag these days in many (if not most, or even all) places, you can't simply leave it at the side of the road anymore (as was OK in the Good Old DaysTM).

That expression is IMHO exactly that: old... and, as I just argued, likely already obsoleted by time.