Author Topic: Latest GRC-12 TSO Product  (Read 18550 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6631
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« on: December 15, 2018, 07:28 PM »
Check this out...and such a simple concept.  [smile]

https://youtu.be/1s0x4gtuxMM?t=6

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 12084
  • Magnum - My new little boy
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2018, 07:41 AM »
This topic has been restored.

Peter

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1475
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2018, 08:32 AM »
Interesting.

Now combine that with the makita way of having a lower part that spreads the load to protect the slot bottoms from being deformed by the screws - with something that holds both parts together when removing the connector - and it would be something.

Offline blaszcsj

  • Posts: 464
  • I like building stuff with my hands.
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2018, 09:27 AM »
This looks exactly like the rail connectors Woodpecker used to fix their parallel cut system a few years back.
OF1010 EQ Router | MFT/3 | DF500Q | Carvex 420 | ETS EC 150/3 | CT 36 Auto Clean | TSC55 | LR32 | OF1400 EQ Router | ZOBO Metric Set | CXS Li 2.6 - 90 Limited Edition | Universal Cleaning Set | HKC55 | Centrotec CE-SORT | RO150 FEQ | DTS 400 | RO90 DX | CTSYS | C18 Drill | SysLite KALII | Syslite STL 450 | RAS 115 E | OF2200 EB

Offline Cochese

  • Posts: 309
    • The 144 Workshop
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2018, 09:29 AM »
Interesting, I was going to pick up the Betterley connector after Christmas.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1910
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2018, 10:08 AM »
The connectors are quite thin. Can you trust them to remain straight and be rigid enough to act like alignment tool?

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 564
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2018, 10:29 AM »
I think not having them like the Makita was a big miss.
Instagram @matts.garage

Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2644
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2018, 01:19 PM »
I like the idea of these. However, I think that some have rails that differ slightly and may only want one of these to align the inner (center) T-slots while leaving the outer (left edge) T-slots to be joined with a connector that does not self align.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1910
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2018, 01:30 PM »
I like the idea of these. However, I think that some have rails that differ slightly and may only want one of these to align the inner (center) T-slots while leaving the outer (left edge) T-slots to be joined with a connector that does not self align.
Excellent point.


Offline duburban

  • Posts: 1043
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2018, 05:57 PM »
cool, i agree.

Just cannot beat the wedge system. I made 2 pair and finally feel good about having my tracks connected.
helper: i used a festool "circular saw" to do something simple and it made it really hard

me: exactly, it makes simple cuts complicated and complicated cuts simple

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 12084
  • Magnum - My new little boy
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2018, 07:28 PM »
Two threads have been merged.

Peter Halle - Moderator

Offline dlu

  • Posts: 176
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2018, 08:41 PM »
Cool, and disappointing - wish that they didn't have the grub screw bearing on the track. Even the "inverted flathead" screw that Woodpecker uses would be a big improvement IMHO.

Offline TSO_Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 122
    • TSO Products LLC
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2018, 01:31 PM »
thank you all for the comments - and helpful feedback!
We also check our email box
                                              info@tsoproducts.com
for customer comments to hear from folks who actually have used the product.

We will respond to the questions in the preceding posts after we see a pattern. If we have made design choices that are not spot on, or fall short of reasonable customer expectations, we will acknowledge that and fix them to the extent that may be feasible. That's how we and our products get better [smile]

Hans and Eric


Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1910
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2018, 02:30 PM »
I think not having them like the Makita was a big miss.
Perhaps only a thin spacer under the set screw. In TSO design the connector is acting as a straight edge and needs to be rigid. It is already quite thin. Making it in two pieces (like Makita's) will weaken it even more.
As previously mentioned an inverted flat head, perhaps with plastic padding, should work well.

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 1924
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2018, 03:59 PM »
Or just use non-marring set screws like these and don't crank them down too tight.

https://www.mcmaster.com/set-screws

Love the TSO products that I have (latest order showed up today) and really respect Hans and Eric for their innovation however $50 does seem a mite steep.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline gunnyr

  • Posts: 182
    • Compass Custom Creations
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2018, 08:38 PM »
The Betterly StraightLine Tool is $109, the Festool Connectors are $40 for the pair.  $50 for a tool that replaces both seems pretty good to me!  As I already have the Betterly and two sets of Festool Connectors I don't see the need for the TSO product, if I didn't have the Betterly I would jump on these!

I don't understand the concern about dimpling the guide rails with the connector set screws.  I simply snug down the set screws and move on.  Yep, my rails have dimples in them.  To date it has not affected their functionality.  What am I missing?
Semper Fi,
Jeff

TS 55 REQ|HKC 55|PSB 420|DF 500|ETS EC 125/3 EQ|ETS 150/3|DTSC 400|RO 90|RO 150|OF 1400|MFK 700|LR 32|MFS 400/700|CXS (2)|PDC 18|DWC 18-4500|CT MIDI|CT 26|CT 48|MFT/3 (2)|VAC SYS-SET|DUO-SET|SYSLITE KAL II
US Marines - UK Wildcats - Cincinnati Reds

Offline TSO_Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 122
    • TSO Products LLC
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2018, 11:24 PM »
Richard,
Thank you for your kind remarks about TSO and your set screw suggestion – which is exactly what is  standard on the GRC-12 Connectors (see picture)

Your comment about TSO being “a mite” pricey tells us we need to be more clear:
It’s easy to overlook that it requires two (2) connectors while Makita and Festool sell and price them as individual units
Because the Makita connector consist of two stamped steel strips it’s easy to think the set, consisting of two stamped steel strips provides two connectors but actually  requires 2 sets of these. So here is the cost picture:

TSO GRC-12 consisting of 2 fully machined connectors $ 49.95
MAKITA one 2-piece stamped steel strip Connector $ 24.99  requires 2 sets = $ 49.98
Festool Connectors $ 20.00 ea. – requires 2 = $ 40.00

Thanks guys for your interest
Hans and Eric

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6132
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2018, 11:29 PM »
@TSO Products,

Thank you for clearing up the set screw question. My guess was they were soft nose set screws, but it is not clear in the video or on the website.

Tom

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 1924
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2018, 08:27 AM »
Richard,
Thank you for your kind remarks about TSO and your set screw suggestion – which is exactly what is  standard on the GRC-12 Connectors (see picture)

Your comment about TSO being “a mite” pricey tells us we need to be more clear:
It’s easy to overlook that it requires two (2) connectors while Makita and Festool sell and price them as individual units
Because the Makita connector consist of two stamped steel strips it’s easy to think the set, consisting of two stamped steel strips provides two connectors but actually  requires 2 sets of these. So here is the cost picture:

TSO GRC-12 consisting of 2 fully machined connectors $ 49.95
MAKITA one 2-piece stamped steel strip Connector $ 24.99  requires 2 sets = $ 49.98
Festool Connectors $ 20.00 ea. – requires 2 = $ 40.00

Thanks guys for your interest
Hans and Eric

No offense intended guys, the comment wasn't meant in relation to other alternatives. I should reserve my yapping on prices, cost is relative to value & value is dependent on utility/functionality.

I highly value stuff that just works for it's intended purpose, which your guide squares are a prime example of, and I am sure these connectors fit that category as well.

Keep up the great work.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Chippiegary

  • Posts: 8
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2018, 05:23 PM »
Was wondering if these connectors are going to be available in the Uk ?,post and packing from USA makes them ridiculously expensive , asked the question via email from Tso no reply yet ?

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2766
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2018, 06:29 PM »
Just received my set.  I'll try them out in the next couple of days.


Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 12084
  • Magnum - My new little boy
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2018, 07:49 PM »
@neilc , looking forward to your thoughts!

Peter

Offline Cochese

  • Posts: 309
    • The 144 Workshop
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2018, 10:28 AM »
@neilc , looking forward to your thoughts!

Peter

Same. When you consider the Betterley is $100 and still needs a set of connectors, for $50 this seems like a pretty smart play if everything lines up like it should.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1475
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2018, 04:52 AM »
@TSO_Products is there a european distributor? Shipping these from the US would be prohibitive costwise.

Offline TSO_Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 122
    • TSO Products LLC
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2018, 12:36 PM »
Was wondering if these connectors are going to be available in the Uk ?,post and packing from USA makes them ridiculously expensive , asked the question via email from TSO no reply yet ?

YES,  www.axminster.co.uk will have stock as soon as we get production ramped up to supply everyone. Our dealers are not set up yet Meanwhile we can fill individual small orders  and ship via US Postal International First Class. We will announce it via our TSO INSIDER newsletter. GO to www.tsoproducts.com and click on subscribe.

Thank you for asking!

Hans and Eric

Offline TSO_Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 122
    • TSO Products LLC
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2018, 12:48 PM »
@TSO_Products is there a european distributor? Shipping these from the US would be prohibitive costwise.

@Gregor - on the European continent TSO Products are well stocked by http://www.bannedlink.com/ in Amsterdam.
as we replied earlier to the availability question in the UK, we are gearing up to supply stock of the GRC-12 Connector Set to our international dealers. In the meantime we can fill small individual International orders via US Postal International First Class mail.

Hans and Eric

Offline TSO_Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 122
    • TSO Products LLC
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2018, 01:00 PM »
I like the idea of these. However, I think that some have rails that differ slightly and may only want one of these to align the inner (center) T-slots while leaving the outer (left edge) T-slots to be joined with a connector that does not self align.

@Corwin - glad you raised that question because we addressed that close tolerance concern and guide rail variability from the beginning. Remember that our GRS-16 series Guide Rail Squares are designed to handle the normal production variances of Guide Rail Extrusions. We sweated that quite a bit in the beginning to get it right and have that issue well in hand. Your comment highlights the fact that there is more to getting it right than meets the eye.

Thank you for nudging us to point this out. We regularly ask ourselves if we are providing too much information about our products and our customer's eyes glaze over or if we don't provide enough. We'll add a paragraph about this on our website product page.

Hans

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2766
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2018, 10:28 PM »
I put the GRC-12 connectors on a pair of 1080 guide rails.

The GRC-12 units are slightly thicker than the Festool ones given the bevel.  They are made from aluminum rather than steel.  They include allen head screws and a wrench rather than typical straight-head screws for adjustment.  (BTW, I also made a set of connectors similar to the Makita ones out of a couple of pieces of steel and they work, but the allen screws are a little small for much torque to tighten them and I don't use them as much as I have used the Festool connectors because of that.)

I installed the GRC-12 units in one rail, tightened them and then slid the second rail in place leaving a slight space between the two rails - maybe 1/16" and tightened them up with no straightedge.  Upon checking with a Festool level for a straightedge, the outside edge was off by .004" over the length of the level.  However, when aligning the level to the inside extrusion, it was dead-on with no measurable error in alignment.

I then picked up the guide rail in the middle and shook it a bit while on the edge, to see how it deflected when two were clamped together.  I did notice upon placing it back down on the bench that the rails were no longer straight.  They were out of alignment by perhaps 1/8" and I had to straighten them out.  I did not try a similar technique with the Festool connectors but I would bet they too would slip.  I had hoped the GRC-12 connectors would 'hold' given the beveled clamping method.  But there is a lot of force across a nearly 2200mm rail when you start shaking it.

To be honest, I'm pretty careful with connected rails when moving them so my 'shake test' might be considered a bit extreme.  But I wanted to see if the connectors would keep things in alignment. 

I'll spend some more time with them and report back what I find.

I'd say the connectors are definitely easier to install and get set up - and I like the hex head screws for easier adjustment.  Based on a quick test, they aligned upon first install very well.  But I think regardless of the connectors (festool, TSO, Makita) you're going to want to still use care when moving connected rails to insure they stay straight.

neil


TSO thickness



Festool thickness



.004 alignment variation on outside extrusion of rail



No alignment variation on inside extrusion

Offline ScotF

  • Posts: 2689
Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2018, 12:34 AM »
Good test, Neil. Thanks for the pics and write-up. I am curious why these would not be longer - seems that a longer length would be more secure. I too am careful when connecting rails, but I have had them move and it is frustrating. I was hoping this would solve that issue, but looks like that might not be the case. I would be interested in hearing how these perform as you put them through more testing.  Thanks!