Author Topic: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs  (Read 5177 times)

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Offline wriv

  • Posts: 2
UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« on: November 09, 2020, 03:25 AM »
Hello!

I'm new to the forums and to the craft, but have been slowly building my MFT-style bench (Paulk Smart Bench) as a first project. I'm using the Parf Guide Mark II to make the dog holes and have been struggling with loose fitting dogs no matter what I try.

The dogs always have noticeable play in the hole. It doesn't take any pressure to seat them; there's enough play that they drop in from gravity alone. I reached out to Axminster and after a few exchanges, they sent me a new 20mm cutter that they tested before shipping. I was hopeful this would address the issue, but I get the same loose fit using both of the bits.

Here are 2 videos I recorded showing how the dogs fit (apologies if this isn't the best way to post videos)
https://d2dmppnfx8a8m8.cloudfront.net/parf/parf-loose1.mov
https://d2dmppnfx8a8m8.cloudfront.net/parf/parf-loose2.mov

I'm following the instructions for the system. The locator pins are fully seated when drilling the pilot holes. I use the pins to align the guide block and even clamp it down to make sure it doesn't lift or tilt while drilling. I'm drilling slowly and pecking as recommended.

I've tested the fit with both the included Parf Locator dogs and also with a pair of TSO Close Fit dogs. I measure dogs both to have a 19.95mm diameter.

I've also tested in a few different materials: Baltic Birch (12mm and 18mm), MDF (12mm), and MDO (12mm). Same result.

I've made sure to use both of the bushing in the guide block. Same result.

I've also tried chucking the bits into my Rockler drill guide to eliminate the guide block and drill runout as a factor. Same result.

At this point I'm questioning my expectations for the product (which seems excellent aside from this issue). Most of the reviews and tutorials rave about a snug dog fit with zero play (even too snug), but this has not been my experience.  To be fair, the loose fit I'm experiencing is probably manageable but I can't shake the feeling that something is off.

How snugly do everyone else's dogs fit in their PGS produced dog holes? Are my expectations the problem or is there some other factor I'm failing to account for?

Thanks in advance for any ideas or suggestions!

Will
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 11:28 AM by wriv »

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Online AstroKeith

  • Posts: 193
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2020, 03:52 AM »
Hi Will & welcome.

I've used the Part guide to drill about 300 holes so am pretty familiar with it. Some other people seem to have trouble getting the 96mm spacing right, not so many on hole "snugness".

I can get a clean 'gravity drop' in about half of my holes, but then they are mostly well 'run in' by now. The new holes are more snug.

You're right to be careful on the actual dogs themselves.

Looking at your excellent videos I would say they are OK overall. The 'waggle' test you show isn't fair as so little of the dog is in the hole. Which brings me to my main point - the bench tops must be 18mm+ thickness.

Personally I dont care for the simple bench dog clamps that produce a strong levering action on the hole, even with a hold down knob. Bessey make a good clamp mounting plate that overcomes this issue.
Bench dogs work best with clear lateral forces against them and absolute tightness isn't critical.
You want them to be tight enough so that using dogs to set up a square cut is accurate. I think yours looked OK.
Retired engineer/scientist

Offline wriv

  • Posts: 2
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2020, 08:58 PM »
Quote
Looking at your excellent videos I would say they are OK overall. The 'waggle' test you show isn't fair as so little of the dog is in the hole. Which brings me to my main point - the bench tops must be 18mm+ thickness.

Appreciate the response! It had crossed my mind that the material's thickness could be a factor, but the few tests I did in 18mm material had the same results. Plus, the locator pins have all fit extremely snug in the pilots holes, regardless of the material thickness, so I didn't pursue this further. I may need to revisit. The majority of my tests since then have been in 12mm material.

Also useful to know that many of your dogs also drop in from gravity alone. Maybe my expectations need calibration more than my tools.

Thanks for the insight!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 09:16 PM by wriv »

Offline mkasdin

  • Posts: 475
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2020, 09:55 PM »
You can try using shellac in the holes. Don’t get overzealous.  Just a little and that will tighten the holes. The other thing I’ve done is put a single wrap of plumbers Teflon tape and the dogs will fit in snug. No jiggley dogs. 🐶

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 496
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2020, 06:26 PM »
Quote
Looking at your excellent videos I would say they are OK overall. The 'waggle' test you show isn't fair as so little of the dog is in the hole. Which brings me to my main point - the bench tops must be 18mm+ thickness.

Appreciate the response! It had crossed my mind that the material's thickness could be a factor, but the few tests I did in 18mm material had the same results. Plus, the locator pins have all fit extremely snug in the pilots holes, regardless of the material thickness, so I didn't pursue this further. I may need to revisit. The majority of my tests since then have been in 12mm material.

Also useful to know that many of your dogs also drop in from gravity alone. Maybe my expectations need calibration more than my tools.

Thanks for the insight!

That's really surprising. I have had/used the Parf-Guide system for so long that the MK2 system wasn't around yet. it has always been great. My main assembly table has 325 holes in 3/4" MDF and they all fit very well. None of mine will "fall in", they have to be pushed. I also have a side table that is used for cross-cutting with the UJK dogs. It is made from 3/4" melamine coated particle board. I insert/remove the rail dogs from the same holes quite frequently and no issues there either.
My bit has drilled a minimum of 500 holes and I have never had a loose one?
CSX
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PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
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Offline seturner

  • Posts: 9
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2021, 10:12 PM »
I am having this issue as well.  Does anybody experience play between the guide bushing and the 20mm cutter shaft?  I do and the shaft on my cutter measures 9.97mm.

I have reached out to both Axminster and TSO.  TSO is going to send me a new cutter whenever they get stock.  Axminster says they cannot send me one due to customs and tax.

I suspect the spike on my cutter is a little off center or bent. When I first begin drilling the 20mm holes using the guide, the drill and cutter wobble some when the cutter engages the mdf, or it could be due to the play between the guide bushing and the cutter shaft.

Regardless, my TSO close fit dogs are loose in most holes.

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3479
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2021, 05:43 AM »
Is it possible that the people with loose holes are using a drill with too much runout?
Birdhunter

Offline Roachmill

  • Posts: 298
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2021, 06:23 AM »
I suspect the spike on my cutter is a little off center or bent. When I first begin drilling the 20mm holes using the guide, the drill and cutter wobble some when the cutter engages the mdf, or it could be due to the play between the guide bushing and the cutter shaft.
Just checking the basics here - are you drilling the 3mm guide holes first (the ones done with the rulers and guide bush) before using the 20mm cutter? the point on the 20mm bit is supposed to have the holes there to guide it through and I'd imagine without them it would have all sorts of problems.

Offline seturner

  • Posts: 9
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2021, 10:20 AM »
Is it possible that the people with loose holes are using a drill with too much runout?

I wonder that as well.  I am using a Milwaukee M12 Drill/Driver with Hammer functionality(No, I am not using it in Hammer mode LOL).  The drill is a bit crude.

However, when drilling the 20mm holes, since the drill is heavy, I make sure the drill body is aligned with the jig so that if it trys to tip, the weight is along the jig and not across it.

Offline seturner

  • Posts: 9
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2021, 10:31 AM »
Just checking the basics here - are you drilling the 3mm guide holes first (the ones done with the rulers and guide bush) before using the 20mm cutter? the point on the 20mm bit is supposed to have the holes there to guide it through and I'd imagine without them it would have all sorts of problems.
I am indeed using the rulers and drilling the 3mm guide holes.  I am positing that the spike is a little off and since the cutter is constrained by the guide at one end and the spike in a 3mm hole on the other, that an off center or bent spike can cause an eccentric motion on the cutter resulting in a slightly larger or non round hole. 

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5228
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2021, 01:51 PM »
I wonder if everyone with this issue are using Part Dogs. Not all dogs are the same size.

Offline seturner

  • Posts: 9
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2021, 02:06 PM »
I wonder if everyone with this issue are using Part Dogs. Not all dogs are the same size.

I for one experience the loose fit with the included locator dogs as well as the tso double groove close fit dogs.

Offline Wayne CW

  • Posts: 39
  • Wayne
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2021, 02:46 PM »
I just finished my top using the Parf Guide. When i experimented with my Milwaukee drill i found it a bit top heavy so i ordered a CXS and oh what a difference. But i think the Milwaukee would have done the job. One thing about the Axminster parf dogs with the chamfered collar it allows them to seat properly without any wiggle and they are solid. I tried a 20mm pin which came with my Insta Track Square and they were a little loose in the holes for sure. When i ordered my guide i did order a pair of tall and a pair of the short dogs.
"There is always something new to learn and old age isn't an excuse to quit."

Offline Wayne CW

  • Posts: 39
  • Wayne
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2021, 02:57 PM »
I wonder if everyone with this issue are using Part Dogs. Not all dogs are the same size.

I for one experience the loose fit with the included locator dogs as well as the tso double groove close fit dogs.

For those with the wiggle issues i'm just wondering what would happen if you put a coat of lacquer or such to the parts of the dog that goes into the hole and of course let it dry and then see if you get the fit you are after? … just a thought. Not sure if lacquer would stick but anything is worth a try … even clear nail polish?
"There is always something new to learn and old age isn't an excuse to quit."

Offline Rick Herrick

  • Posts: 525
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2021, 04:15 PM »
I just finished my top using the Parf Guide. When i experimented with my Milwaukee drill i found it a bit top heavy so i ordered a CXS and oh what a difference. But i think the Milwaukee would have done the job. One thing about the Axminster parf dogs with the chamfered collar it allows them to seat properly without any wiggle and they are solid. I tried a 20mm pin which came with my Insta Track Square and they were a little loose in the holes for sure. When i ordered my guide i did order a pair of tall and a pair of the short dogs.

I bought my MKII about a year ago based on videos by Peter Parfitt.  I bought the CXS simply because I saw him use it and it worked great.  No regrets.

Offline Wayne CW

  • Posts: 39
  • Wayne
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2021, 04:32 PM »
I just finished my top using the Parf Guide. When i experimented with my Milwaukee drill i found it a bit top heavy so i ordered a CXS and oh what a difference. But i think the Milwaukee would have done the job. One thing about the Axminster parf dogs with the chamfered collar it allows them to seat properly without any wiggle and they are solid. I tried a 20mm pin which came with my Insta Track Square and they were a little loose in the holes for sure. When i ordered my guide i did order a pair of tall and a pair of the short dogs.

I bought my MKII about a year ago based on videos by Peter Parfitt.  I bought the CXS simply because I saw him use it and it worked great.  No regrets.

Right on Rick! I am certain enjoying both purchases.

Regards Wayne
"There is always something new to learn and old age isn't an excuse to quit."

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8563
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2021, 08:22 PM »
I am positing that the spike is a little off and since the cutter is constrained by the guide at one end and the spike in a 3mm hole on the other, that an off center or bent spike can cause an eccentric motion on the cutter resulting in a slightly larger or non round hole.

The center point pilot/spike of the Forstner bit will not cause an oversized hole. The Forstner bit will be guided only by the Oilite bushing and the diameter of the hole will be determined by the OD of the Forstner bit. I’d check the Forstner bit closely for burrs or rough edges/areas. It doesn’t take much to cause an oversized hole.

Offline seturner

  • Posts: 9
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2021, 10:59 PM »

Please watch linked video of me demonstrating my 20mm cutter.

At the beginning, I spin the cutter without the bit touching the mdf.  I then engage the spike of the bit with the mdf.  Finally, I actually drill into the surface.


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8563
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2021, 11:40 PM »
Ya, I understand completely what you're saying  [smile] , but there's no way that a 1/8"-3/16" diameter centering point when engaged in wood will overturn the centering of a 1/4"-5/16" shaft when constrained within an Oilite bearing. I think the issue is cutting spurs that are not concentric or an Oilite bearing that is not within spec. The cutting spurs would make the most sense because when engaged with the wood, the mechanical advantage is such that they would indeed dictate what path the Forstner bit will take.

The good news is that there seems to be no movement with the Parf Guide, that's a good thing and one less thing to worry about, the pins appear to hold it solidly in place.

I'd focus on the spurs or the Oilite.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 11:50 PM by Cheese »

Online squall_line

  • Posts: 404
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2021, 12:44 AM »
FWIW, on my CXS, I almost always pull the trigger with my middle finger and stabilize the body of the drill with my index finger.  This also puts the meat of my hand closer to the centerline of the drill bit for less off-axis pressure.

Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 243
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2021, 05:41 AM »

Please watch linked video of me demonstrating my 20mm cutter.

At the beginning, I spin the cutter without the bit touching the mdf.  I then engage the spike of the bit with the mdf.  Finally, I actually drill into the surface.

From what I can see in your video, there is a lot of wobble.  I didn't experience any wobble of the 20mm cutter when I made the 200 holes in my workbench top.

Offline Vondawg

  • Posts: 417
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2021, 07:57 AM »
It looks as though you’re not clamping the (MKll) jig ….is that correct?
There are no mistakes....just new designs.

Offline Wayne CW

  • Posts: 39
  • Wayne
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2021, 11:31 AM »

Please watch linked video of me demonstrating my 20mm cutter.

At the beginning, I spin the cutter without the bit touching the mdf.  I then engage the spike of the bit with the mdf.  Finally, I actually drill into the surface.



Operating your drill without any support on the jig is not a good thing to do. By placing you left hand firmly on the jig not only stabilizes the jig but will stabilize your upper body. Forstner bits were designed for use in a drill press and can be difficult to steady without one, but since we are using it free hand more or less, we need a firm grip on it. Let it score the surface lightly first then apply downward pressure. Also this is a an eco system and using the dogs designed by the system maker is crucial in my opinion. UJK also make the Super Parf dogs that can be locked into the holes.
"There is always something new to learn and old age isn't an excuse to quit."

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 885
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2021, 11:39 AM »
FWIW, on my CXS, I almost always pull the trigger with my middle finger and stabilize the body of the drill with my index finger.  This also puts the meat of my hand closer to the centerline of the drill bit for less off-axis pressure.

lol. I never understand people using their index finger on the trigger with this drill. It goes from being the most ergonomic drill I’ve ever used to one of the least. But we’re all different.
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline seturner

  • Posts: 9
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2021, 12:20 PM »
FWIW, on my CXS, I almost always pull the trigger with my middle finger and stabilize the body of the drill with my index finger.  This also puts the meat of my hand closer to the centerline of the drill bit for less off-axis pressure.

lol. I never understand people using their index finger on the trigger with this drill. It goes from being the most ergonomic drill I’ve ever used to one of the least. But we’re all different.

I know lol. I literally purchased the drill yesterday and have not become accustomed to using it the optimal way!

Offline seturner

  • Posts: 9
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2021, 12:23 PM »


Operating your drill without any support on the jig is not a good thing to do. By placing you left hand firmly on the jig not only stabilizes the jig but will stabilize your upper body. Forstner bits were designed for use in a drill press and can be difficult to steady without one, but since we are using it free hand more or less, we need a firm grip on it. Let it score the surface lightly first then apply downward pressure. Also this is a an eco system and using the dogs designed by the system maker is crucial in my opinion. UJK also make the Super Parf dogs that can be locked into the holes.

You are right. I was holding my camera(phone) with my off hand. I usually hold the guide as steady as I am able.


Offline seturner

  • Posts: 9
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2021, 12:28 PM »
I'd focus on the spurs or the Oilite.

There is play between the oilite bushing and the cutter shaft.  My drill shaft measures 9.97 mm with digital calipers.  I don’t have the means to accurately measure the bushing ID.


Offline AnthonyE

  • Posts: 21
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2021, 12:43 PM »
I purchased the Parf MKII about a year ago and had the exact opposite issue.  I wasn't able to use the kit until my bench was complete which was about 3 months ago.  I was blown away by the accuracy of the rules and the 3mm pins.  I went through and drilled all the holes I could until I had to use the 20mm dogs to position the jig.  Once I started trying the 20mm pins none of my holes were large enough to accept the dogs.  I used multiple different brand calipers and proved that my bit had a diameter of 19.92mm which was too much under spec therefore wouldn't accept dogs that were 19.95mm to 19.98mm.  I was able to get the reamer and was also sent a new cutter.

Reaming out all my holes was an absolute nightmare.  I had to keep a cup of ice cold water and cool the reamer after every hole otherwise the hole would eventually be slightly oversized due to the expansion of the steel with the heat. I eventually finished and the holes ended up dead on.  Once the new bit arrived it was also dead on!!

Unfortunately your holes sound slightly oversized therefore my experience doesn't help at all. I will say that your drilling technique is super important.  Peter Parfit has a video showing the technique for drilling.  I would drill the holes using the pecking technique making sure that your chips are constantly being cleared out. I'm shocked that the new bit didn't fix the issue.  Use a set of calipers and measure the outside diameter of the bit right at the spurs.  What's the diameter?

I also would recommend trying out some "close fit" dogs from TSO.  These dogs are at least 19.98 to 19.99mm.  I typically use these when I'm needing to be super accurate fro crosscuts.

Offline Wayne CW

  • Posts: 39
  • Wayne
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2021, 05:28 PM »
FWIW, on my CXS, I almost always pull the trigger with my middle finger and stabilize the body of the drill with my index finger.  This also puts the meat of my hand closer to the centerline of the drill bit for less off-axis pressure.

lol. I never understand people using their index finger on the trigger with this drill. It goes from being the most ergonomic drill I’ve ever used to one of the least. But we’re all different.

Good point Mr B … makes sense … i shall give it at try on my next go with CXS. I've just had it a week so still getting used to it but i do enjoy using it thus far.
"There is always something new to learn and old age isn't an excuse to quit."

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 398
Re: UJK Parf Guide Mark II and loose fitting dogs
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2021, 03:08 PM »
On occasion I read about the PARF guide system and to be honest, I don't get it. 

The only thing I ever wanted was a template with 1.00" diameter holes appropriately placed for a MFT top.  It need not cover the entire top; 4 rows would be enough.  And then it could be shifted.

Used with a router and 1.00" O.D. template guide (7/8"  I.D.) it would accommodate a 0.750" diameter router bit.  The only accessory needed would be two bench dogs with 3/4" at one end and 1" at the other for indexing to the next station. 

It would be made from 1/4" hardboard or any other dimensionally stable sheet good.  It certainly could be sold for the price of a PARF system, and it would be easier to use and should be as accurate as the CNC that made the template. 

If there is something I am missing, let me know.  But PARF is starting to look like a hobby to me.