Author Topic: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight  (Read 7420 times)

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Offline Roachmill

  • Posts: 268
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2020, 02:56 PM »
I'd be interested in seeing what the diameter of the reemer is instead of the length. IS it taking it to 20.10mm?
Good point! Keep in mind that NASA do not use my calipers so measurement to the nearest atom is not guaranteed. With that said, here we have what they say a 12mm Parf Pup and the reamer come out at:



I spent 10 minutes reaming out the holes on the top for my centipede (produced using a jig with Festool 20mm bit) which, up until now, were way too tight for Parf dogs. As a result I'll be passing on the myriad of old dogs from a multitude of manufacturers and ordering more Parf dogs. No more futzing around picking and choosing between dogs that are too tight or too loose.

As to just using Valcromat or HDF... for something I cut to bits and replace on a regular basis I'll stick to the cheaper MRMDF, PGS and 10 minutes reaming. I'm done with router jigs, worrying about router bit concentricity (I'm looking at you OF1400!) and will this dog fit snug or be loose. I believe I have, after several years, attained a MFT and dog zen state. Sad, I know!

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Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8000
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2020, 04:19 PM »
@Cheese - ever since we introduced our 18" inch Precision Triangles we have been faced with the varying accuracy of hole patterns and bore diameters.

This led us to introduce two styles of our Double Groove(TM) Dogs. For most operations involving Dogs in a 20mm benchtop hole pattern, an ultra-tight fit is not required and not even helpful - hence our standard Dog which does not need to "pushed" in, nor require extra effort to withdraw.

If the fit of our standard Dogs leaves an undesirable amount of  play, that can be substantially reduced or eliminated by using a TSO SpeedKnob from below to draw the Dog into a perfectly perpendicular relationship with the top.

Hans

Thanks for the Dog information Hans @TSO Products 

I never looked at or considered purchasing your dogs because I already have so many on-hand. Woodpeckers aluminum, Woodpeckers delrin, Qwas, Lee Valley yada yada. I even have several aluminum versions that I turned myself on the lathe. [eek]

So like Roachmill and probably many others on this forum I just keep a pile of them on the bench and then go through the drill "this one's too tight, this ones too loose".

Now that I know you provide Dogs in 2 different diameters, I'm going to take a different approach and purchase several of each and then make a decision as to which ones work best.

One of the table tops is 1 1/2" thick maple that I used a 20 mm Zobo bit on.

The other table top is 18 mm BB ply that I used the Festool 20 mm bit on.

We'll see what shakes out.  [smile]

Offline Claimdude

  • Posts: 424
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2020, 07:55 PM »
Cheese,

I have the tight fit TSO dogs and have been very happy with them! My top is a CNC'd top based on the Drawing that Hans provides. I used plane old MDF and have no problems with changes in dimensions. My shop is climate controlled with humidity typically around 45%. You won't regret getting the TSO dogs.

Jack

@Cheese - ever since we introduced our 18" inch Precision Triangles we have been faced with the varying accuracy of hole patterns and bore diameters.

This led us to introduce two styles of our Double Groove(TM) Dogs. For most operations involving Dogs in a 20mm benchtop hole pattern, an ultra-tight fit is not required and not even helpful - hence our standard Dog which does not need to "pushed" in, nor require extra effort to withdraw.

If the fit of our standard Dogs leaves an undesirable amount of  play, that can be substantially reduced or eliminated by using a TSO SpeedKnob from below to draw the Dog into a perfectly perpendicular relationship with the top.

Hans

Thanks for the Dog information Hans @TSO Products 

I never looked at or considered purchasing your dogs because I already have so many on-hand. Woodpeckers aluminum, Woodpeckers delrin, Qwas, Lee Valley yada yada. I even have several aluminum versions that I turned myself on the lathe. [eek]

So like Roachmill and probably many others on this forum I just keep a pile of them on the bench and then go through the drill "this one's too tight, this ones too loose".

Now that I know you provide Dogs in 2 different diameters, I'm going to take a different approach and purchase several of each and then make a decision as to which ones work best.

One of the table tops is 1 1/2" thick maple that I used a 20 mm Zobo bit on.

The other table top is 18 mm BB ply that I used the Festool 20 mm bit on.

We'll see what shakes out.  [smile]

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8000
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2020, 08:52 PM »
Cheese,

I have the tight fit TSO dogs and have been very happy with them! My top is a CNC'd top based on the Drawing that Hans provides. I used plane old MDF and have no problems with changes in dimensions. My shop is climate controlled with humidity typically around 45%. You won't regret getting the TSO dogs.

Jack

Thanks Jack, I appreciate your feedback.  [smile]

Like you, the benches are in the basement where it’s 50-70 all year long with good humidity control.
I’m going to purchase the tight Dogs and go from there. If they’re too tight I’ll modify them on the lathe and that will quickly point me in the direction I need to go to fine tune this situation.

Offline NSC77

  • Posts: 1
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2020, 12:55 PM »
You can get a reamer for this on Amazon that works perfect for this. I've built my own custom MFT like atomic Ryan and used it to get the holes perfect.  https://www.amazon.com/Taper-Straight-Shank-Finishing-Reamer/dp/B0788LLRHW/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=20mm+reamer&qid=1603990491&s=hi&sr=1-3


Offline Bernmc

  • Posts: 75
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2020, 03:06 PM »
Axminster sent me a reamer - ran it through the holes and it solved the problem.

They really are excellent at sorting out issues. Mark of a great company.

Offline timbrier

  • Posts: 1
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2020, 04:50 AM »
I stumbled upon this thread yesterday and found the info about the reamer. I got my MFT top from ebay and use benchdogs.co.uk dogs so I wasn't going to be able to get it for free through support. I emailed the technical team though and you can buy it through the Axminster sales phone line. The order code is 107586 and it costs £16.98 plus postage. Was about £20 all in for me and it arrived first thing the next day.

Offline Roachmill

  • Posts: 268
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2020, 05:32 AM »
I stumbled upon this thread yesterday and found the info about the reamer. I got my MFT top from ebay and use benchdogs.co.uk dogs so I wasn't going to be able to get it for free through support. I emailed the technical team though and you can buy it through the Axminster sales phone line. The order code is 107586 and it costs £16.98 plus postage. Was about £20 all in for me and it arrived first thing the next day.
That's great to hear and thanks for sharing the details too [big grin]

Offline Roachmill

  • Posts: 268
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2020, 09:13 AM »
Well look at that... they're now live on their site https://www.axminstertools.com/ujk-parf-system-reamer-for-20mm-holes-107586
« Last Edit: December 04, 2020, 09:57 AM by Roachmill »

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 625
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2020, 09:53 AM »
Well look at that... they're now live on their sitehttps://www.axminstertools.com/ujk-parf-system-reamer-for-20mm-holes-107586

Thanks for the link. Don't like paying about $30US for it but I have three MFTish slabs with about 300 holes that I've been so frustrated with the tight fit I gave up using the dogs. Maybe this will convert me [big grin].

Offline Roachmill

  • Posts: 268
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2020, 10:08 AM »
You won't regret it Mike. I still look upon my one with the eyes of a teenager in love for the very first time  [big grin] [eek]

Offline Imemiter

  • Posts: 87
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2020, 12:54 PM »
My stocking stuffer! It's a Christmas miracle. :)
CSX, TID18, HKC55, OSC18, OF1010, DTS400, ETS125, RAS115, LR32, CTSys, CTMidi, CT-VA-20

Offline Vtshopdog

  • Posts: 75
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2020, 06:06 PM »
Of course it comes out after I bought the 20mm hand reamer suggested in another thread.
Attaching to a drill is very appealing, might as well own both.

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 625
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2020, 03:16 PM »
My Axminster reamer was delivered today - quicker shipping than Amazon Prime!

Offline Roachmill

  • Posts: 268
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2020, 06:13 AM »
My Axminster reamer was delivered today - quicker shipping than Amazon Prime!
You did well to get your hands on one as they sold out pretty quickly. I [scratch chin] suspect [scratch chin] there was a rush on them after Peter published his excellent in-depth video on them.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2020, 07:27 AM »
When they went out of stock just after the video was published Axminster put another bunch on the web site but those were sold out this morning. Nobody had any idea that the reamer would be so popular.

So, I have just spoken to Axminster and they are on the case. For some reason (that I do not understand) their web site is currently not allowing a back order reservation to be made for the reamers. These are made on a huge CNC machine which is longer than my house. Although they have two of these both are currently in mid flight producing other kit. It can take a couple of hours to retool, calibrate and restock one of these machines ready for a new job and so the next batch cannot now start in production until Monday.

I have warned Axminster about the popularity (I suspect they knew this anyway) and they will not let anyone down.

Peter

Offline pixelated

  • Posts: 248
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2020, 08:50 AM »
The Axminster site does let you signup for an email notification when the stock is replenished. The reamer will be just the thing for my MFT 800 which has tighter holes than the current MFT. It's great news that Axminster has decided to make this a regular product.

Offline Vtshopdog

  • Posts: 75
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2020, 03:26 PM »

....... Nobody had any idea that the reamer would be so popular.......

Peter

Perhaps inserting the qualifier "at Axminster" would be appropriate??
 ;D ;D ;D

Asked Santa for this plus revision dogs as stocking stuffer and they arrived yesterday.  (Quite happy that my wife is much less prone to procrastinate than I am and ordered right away.  Left to my own devices I would be waiting for the backorder units)

Axminster shipping and service is really good. 

Offline Imemiter

  • Posts: 87
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2020, 07:18 PM »
Mine came in yesterday. $7USD to ship it around the world. What a time to be alive. It's very nicely turned. I've done about twenty holes so far on my home-gamer bench of 1/2" Baltic and it's working well. Thanks Santa! 
CSX, TID18, HKC55, OSC18, OF1010, DTS400, ETS125, RAS115, LR32, CTSys, CTMidi, CT-VA-20

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8000
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2020, 10:17 PM »
Personally, I think the time has come to embrace the similarity in the machining tolerances of metals with the machining tolerances of wood.

Twenty years ago people in the woodworking industry would exclaim that anything machined within 1/16" to 1/32" is GOOD ENOUGH.

Times have changed, wooden rulers are no longer being used to measure critical dimensions, bad Stanley tape measures are no longer being viewed as the arbiter of precise dimensions. People are using knee mills and CNC machines to machine wood and they consistently rely on +/- of .001" tolerances for inlays.

We've rounded the corner and that's a good thing.

Sure, wood expands with humidity but aluminum and plastic expand with temperature and from a manufacturing consistency  standpoint, we've been able to successfully gather that in within the last 15 years.

The future will embrace this new method of thought, and the biggest break-throughs will be with the folks that strive to achieve +/- .015" in wood rather than those that say 1/16" is good enough. 1/16" is good enough for framing...but not much else for fine woodworking.

This reamer thread is a great example, the reamers people are exploring are machine tools developed for the metal fabrication industry. The cross-over is astounding.


Offline mkasdin

  • Posts: 426
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2020, 02:20 AM »
Personally, I think the time has come to embrace the similarity in the machining tolerances of metals with the machining tolerances of wood.

Twenty years ago people in the woodworking industry would exclaim that anything machined within 1/16" to 1/32" is GOOD ENOUGH.

Times have changed, wooden rulers are no longer being used to measure critical dimensions, bad Stanley tape measures are no longer being viewed as the arbiter of precise dimensions. People are using knee mills and CNC machines to machine wood and they consistently rely on +/- of .001" tolerances for inlays.

We've rounded the corner and that's a good thing.

Sure, wood expands with humidity but aluminum and plastic expand with temperature and from a manufacturing consistency  standpoint, we've been able to successfully gather that in within the last 15 years.

The future will embrace this new method of thought, and the biggest break-throughs will be with the folks that strive to achieve +/- .015" in wood rather than those that say 1/16" is good enough. 1/16" is good enough for framing...but not much else for fine woodworking.

This reamer thread is a great example, the reamers people are exploring are machine tools developed for the metal fabrication industry. The cross-over is astounding.

When I was in the military (Seabees), if anyone asked about the tolerance or fit the answer at times “good enough for a government job (government work).” That meant somewhere in the 1/8” with a tolerance of +/-  1/8”. I do agree with you, in the age of cheap digital micrometers and super precise measuring tools and cutting machines the world of WW has evolved into machining wood in some cases? I’m guilty by default.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 03:24 AM by mkasdin »

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2020, 05:59 AM »

When I was in the military (Seabees), if anyone asked about the tolerance or fit the answer at times “good enough for a government job (government work).” That meant somewhere in the 1/8” with a tolerance of +/-  1/8”. I do agree with you, in the age of cheap digital micrometers and super precise measuring tools and cutting machines the world of WW has evolved into machining wood in some cases? I’m guilty by default.

Yes, I have used "Close enough for government work" a few times in my videos.

The great thing about better precision (and as this is a Parf Guide thread) is the ability to cut things accurately, especially square, as everything then comes together so easily. Also, repeat cuts tend to be identical rather than - close enough for government work.

Cheers.

Peter

Offline GigaWatt

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  • Life long woodworker & retired Electrical Engineer
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2020, 10:03 AM »

When I was in the military (Seabees), if anyone asked about the tolerance or fit the answer at times “good enough for a government job (government work).” That meant somewhere in the 1/8” with a tolerance of +/-  1/8”. I do agree with you, in the age of cheap digital micrometers and super precise measuring tools and cutting machines the world of WW has evolved into machining wood in some cases? I’m guilty by default.

Yes, I have used "Close enough for government work" a few times in my videos.

The great thing about better precision (and as this is a Parf Guide thread) is the ability to cut things accurately, especially square, as everything then comes together so easily. Also, repeat cuts tend to be identical rather than - close enough for government work.

Cheers.

Peter
I just recently started buying Festool equipment and decided to build an MFT. I own an Avid CNC which is a great piece of equipment. Having stated that, a CNC is only accurate when you have it calibrated to the accuracy required for your work. Mine is calibrated down to 1/64" which is good for most of my. I don't have the equipment to calibrate to 0.001". I cut a test MFT top with 6 rows of holes in both X & Y axsis. Tools that used 2 adjacent dog holes was passible however tools like the TSO Triangle that are dogged across multiple holes caused problems. If your cnc is off 0.001 of in accuracy, that multiplies across a number of holes.

I bought the UJK Parf Guide and used it to build a 32" X 48" table. It is dead on accurate across any number and configuration of holes! I plan on building another table and several add on's and the Parf Guide System is a "Must Have Tool".

I purchased bench dogs from TSO, UJK Tech, BenchDogs UK and Sauter Shop. I prefer the "TSO Close Fit", TSO Standards slide in and out easily. I used the pecking method described in Peter's video to drill my top. Each and every hole has a snug fit and I have to use a dog clamp to remove short dogs or push from under the table. I prefer the accuracy of that as opposed to having a looser fit.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 10:05 AM by GigaWatt »

Offline Wood_Slice

  • Posts: 39
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2021, 09:19 PM »
Using the fostner bit is there a way to make sure the bottom is chip free/no tear out without having a backer board underneath it? Should I slow or speed up the bits turning motion. Drill with pressure downwards slower?
DF 500 + Assortments | ETS EC 125/3 EQ | CT MIDI | MFT3 + Elements|

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2021, 04:47 AM »
Using the fostner bit is there a way to make sure the bottom is chip free/no tear out without having a backer board underneath it? Should I slow or speed up the bits turning motion. Drill with pressure downwards slower?

With the Medite MR MDF that I use there is very little tear out. If you do find it happening then reduce the pressure on the drilling motion towards the end of the hole so that the thin layer, just before the bit comes out the far side, is not "pushed" out rather than "cut out". It is better to maintain the drill speed through the process.

Peter

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 702
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2021, 06:44 AM »
Using the fostner bit is there a way to make sure the bottom is chip free/no tear out without having a backer board underneath it? Should I slow or speed up the bits turning motion. Drill with pressure downwards slower?

Remember the 3mm center of the bit does not cut so a backer board would have to have the 3mm hole perfectly aligned in the center for every hole.

Offline cubevandude

  • Posts: 103
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2021, 08:04 AM »
Using the fostner bit is there a way to make sure the bottom is chip free/no tear out without having a backer board underneath it? Should I slow or speed up the bits turning motion. Drill with pressure downwards slower?

I set the jig so it just drills about 3mm and do one side, then flip it over and drill it right through on the other side.  Its more work, but stops and chipout.

Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 198
Re: UJK Parf Guide dog holes too tight
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2021, 08:47 AM »
I set the jig so it just drills about 3mm and do one side, then flip it over and drill it right through on the other side.  Its more work, but stops and chipout.

This is what I will do when it's time to replace the the top of my workbench.  It is more work, especially for a top with 200 holes, but should produce a clean hole with no breakout.