Author Topic: Part 1: Routing/Milling 80/20 for Festool clamps using an MFS & a 1010  (Read 7521 times)

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Online Cheese

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I have a work bench extension table that's made from 40 series 80/20. I'm also in the process of refinishing a Simpson full view exterior door that I need to enlarge the hinge mortises on. I decided the hinge mortising would be easiest to perform at waist level using the MFS.

Thus, to enable the door to be secured to the table horizontally, on its edge, I needed to remove 2 of the 80/20 legs and route in clearance slots to receive both Festool Quick clamps and a couple of 5/16-18 carriage bolts on "L" handles that attach some angle supports to hold the door.

I decided to use a 1/4" diameter, 4-flute carbide end mill with a 10.8 mm router bushing on the 1010 router. This combination gave me an offset of 2.2 mm per side.
The Festool clamp leg measures .470" wide by 3.750" long.  I converted these numbers to metric and then added the offset of 2.2 mm to each side.
Thus the Festool clamps need a clearance slot 16.5 mm wide by 100 mm long. However, because the 4-flute bit is not a plunge bit, I wanted the MFS to overhang the front of the 80/20 by 10 mm. So I added another 10 mm to the length dimension.
I set the MFS to 16.5 mm x 110 mm and I set the speed of the router to 3.

The 4-flute carbide end mill




The basic setup showing clamping methods and the MFS assembled and upside down.




The MFS is placed over the 80/20 and clamped in place. Notice that it overhangs the 80/20 by 10 mm so that there is clearance for the end mill.


This is the finished clearance slot and the next photo shows the Festool clamp installed.


« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 02:48 PM by Cheese »

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4858
Very nice results!

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7668
One of the things that works out well when using the MFS with 80/20 extrusions, is that the extrusions are slightly narrower (by design) in the slot area. So if it's a 40 mm square extrusion, the slot area will measure 39.6 mm. This means that once the MFS brackets are snugged up on the MFS, the MFS cannot be placed over the extrusion. Rather it has to be slid on the extrusion from the front. This makes the connection between these 2 items more secure. A single clamp on the top of the MFS secures everything.

This shows the MFS clamp on the 80/20 from underneath.



This shows the clamp and the 80/20 in contact with one another.


This shows how little the 80/20 can move away from the MFS clamp. That sliver of light is maybe 2 mm. You can also check the distance on the bottom of the bracket vs the slot...again, maybe 2 mm of movement.
This makes the machining of the 80/20 fast. Slide the MFS off, rotate the 80/20 to machine a different side, slide the MFS back on and clamp with a single clamp.


« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 02:47 PM by Cheese »

Online Cheese

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As I mentioned in Part 1, I also needed to slot the 80/20 to fit the head of a 5/16-18 carriage head bolt. I'll spare you the math and just say that it needs a 24 mm x 24 mm slot. Heres a shot of the bolt/handle assembly.


I opened the MFS to 24 mm wide but kept the length to the original 110 mm. I decided to use a wooden stop block in the MFS to limit the router travel to 24 mm. I again wanted to maintain a 10 mm gap for end mill clearance at the front of the 80/20 extrusion.

I determined I needed to cut a stop block that was 24 mm x 73 mm.


Using the same end mill and router bushing and inserting the stop block produced this.




Final product for using both clamping elements.


« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 02:46 PM by Cheese »

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7668
Very nice results!

Thanks Michael [smile]

FWIW...I use isopropyl alcohol as a lubricant. It gives a nice clean cut and isn't as messy as WD40. Besides it evaporates.  [cool]

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4858
Very nice results!

Thanks Michael [smile]

FWIW...I use isopropyl alcohol as a lubricant. It gives a nice clean cut and isn't as messy as WD40. Besides it evaporates.  [cool]

Never thought of using alcohol. The latest addition to my prop kit is a small spray bottle of alcohol from CVS. Very handy and now it will get more use.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7668
Never thought of using alcohol. The latest addition to my prop kit is a small spray bottle of alcohol from CVS. Very handy and now it will get more use.

Just be careful Michael, nonferrous metals only as it is flammable. And you don't need much. It evaporates fairly slow so a little squirt will last for 20-30 seconds. The upside though is it drys clean.

Sometimes when drilling holes in aluminum, some of the aluminum will weld itself to the drill bit. Rather than removing the drill bit and manual scraping the aluminum off (that stuff is on there), I'll give it a squirt of IPA and between the heat, the vibration and the alcohol, the aluminum shard will remove itself from the drill bit.  [cool]
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 09:35 AM by Cheese »

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1253
I'll give it a squirt of IPA and between the heat, the vibration and the alcohol, the aluminum shard will remove itself from the drill bit.  [cool]

@Cheese seems like a terrible waste of India Pale Ale to me although I much prefer a good stout or porter  [big grin]

Ron

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1892
A very nice illustration and description of a process many 8020 users could apply to their benefit.
One question: It seems the issue of the end mill not being bottom cutting would be mitigated by just plunging the router centered over the slot. This would be useful if one wanted to do the routing without disassembling.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7668
I'll give it a squirt of IPA and between the heat, the vibration and the alcohol, the aluminum shard will remove itself from the drill bit.  [cool]

@Cheese seems like a terrible waste of India Pale Ale to me although I much prefer a good stout or porter  [big grin]

Ron

Ya Ron, as I typed that out I had mixed emotions about using the term IPA.  [big grin]

But then I figured heck, if you want to squander your IPA on machining some aluminum...you’re a better man than me...or maybe just less thirsty.   [smile]
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 09:37 AM by Cheese »

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7668
A very nice illustration and description of a process many 8020 users could apply to their benefit.
One question: It seems the issue of the end mill not being bottom cutting would be mitigated by just plunging the router centered over the slot. This would be useful if one wanted to do the routing without disassembling.

Thanks Greg...to your question, that’s the reason I decided to start the routing 10 mm from the end of the 80/20. That gives a nice pocket in which to plunge the router bit and not engage it in the aluminum. A sort of dead zone. Then moving in a clockwise fashion, you’d only be removing a small amount of material. Which brings up a more important point that you’re alluding to.

My real focus in this “how to tutorial” was to provide a “you can do this” moment...I still hate that commercial.  [eek]

With more people using 80/20, this seemed like a useful discussion in how to optimize the functionality of using 80/20 materials. If you’re using 80/20 then you’re also using the slots for clamping. However, butt up 2 pieces of 80/20 material to each other and you lose the access to at least one of the clamping slots.

Another barrier to knock down is that it seems that a lot of people are intimidated by trying to rout aluminum. I consider it to be just another more dense version of wood. Unfortunately, when using a handheld router on aluminum, the sounds are different as well as the tactile feel through the router. There is a cacophony of different sensations that are both new to and disconcerting to the person that may be well versed in using a router on hard wood.

Just my minimal effort in encouraging woodworkers to try something different.

Offline DynaGlide

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Are there any negative effects of sending aluminum chips through the router and CT hose during machining?
Instagram @matts.garage

Offline Vondawg

  • Posts: 357
Cheese...great “how to” share ...so much more cleaner/precise than my wooden jigs
Thx for the IPA tip and nice pictures!
There are no mistakes....just new designs.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7668
Are there any negative effects of sending aluminum chips through the router and CT hose during machining?

Not that I'm aware of because they really aren't hot and they're also very small. They come off the end mill as a series of very fine slivers.

Besides, it's best to use some type cutting fluid and whether it's AlumaTap, WD40 or IPA, the small chips kind of form a rough slurry and just don't get sucked up for the most part. I'd be surprised if aluminum chip evacuation is any more than 10%-20%.

Here's a photo of the aluminum chips. The photo can be misleading, these little shards are about .005"-.007" thick.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 10:07 AM by Cheese »

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7668
Cheese...great “how to” share ...so much more cleaner/precise than my wooden jigs
Thx for the IPA tip and nice pictures!

Thanks Vondawg... [smile]  the MFS has been a game changer for me. Like everyone else, I've had to make routing guides/jigs for most of my adult life and maintaining accuracy has always been an issue. Then having put so much time and labor into these guides I can't stand parting with them. So they get saved in a corner of the shop JUST IN CASE I EVER NEED IT AGAIN. [crying]   [crying]

With the MFS I just keep a notebook with the settings used and whatever other pertinent information I need. Pretty simple.

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2445
Routed lock cutout into Kawneer aluminum door, 1/4" Amana aluminum routing bit from Toolstoday, lubed with WD-40 in hand spray bottle.  Saved a $700.00 prep charge.
293853-0
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 10:26 AM by rst »

Online Cheese

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Part 4: Routing/Milling 80/20 for Festool clamps using an MFS & a 1010
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2019, 10:52 AM »
This is the final part in this series. As mentioned in Part 1 this entire exercise was because I needed to hold an exterior door to my workbench.

The lower "L" bracket in place to support the edge of the door.


The lower "L" bracket and the upper "L" bracket in place while the door is clamped to the upper "L".


This general door position makes enlarging the existing hinge mortises easy. Everything is done from above and it's all at waist level.


Of general interest, I'm a huge fan of Starrett flexible machinist scales. I have both 6" and 12" versions and use them constantly for precision measuring. On some projects I'll use them more than a tape measure.

Here's a shot of me placing the edge of the existing hinge mortise 3.5 mm from the MFS. This measurement is being done inside a small pocket, an impossible task with a tape.



The reason this works well is because the Starrett scales are so flexible. In the final photo notice how much the scale is flexing. I've owned these scales for 45 years and have done this type of measurement with them for 45 years. A testament to their robustness.  [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 10:58 AM by Cheese »

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2026
@Cheese great tutorial. I need to cut some slots in my assembled sys/mft cart on the front face. Since I cannot enter the slot from the end and will need to plunge I'm thinking of using an 8mm or 1/4" bit that'll fit the 15 series slot.

Assume you are cutting full depth in one pass, just letting the mill side-cut & shave from the slots edge?

It's gonna be fun cutting in a horizontal orientation...

Thanks,

RMW

PS - grab a few of these and you can use your L-brackets in slots without the carriage bolt clearance:



As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7668
@Cheese great tutorial. I need to cut some slots in my assembled sys/mft cart on the front face. Since I cannot enter the slot from the end and will need to plunge I'm thinking of using an 8mm or 1/4" bit that'll fit the 15 series slot.

1. Assume you are cutting full depth in one pass, just letting the mill side-cut & shave from the slots edge?

2. It's gonna be fun cutting in a horizontal orientation...

3. PS - grab a few of these and you can use your L-brackets in slots without the carriage bolt clearance:


Thanks Richard  [smile]

1. Full depth, one pass. Produces nice little shards. Make sure you don't climb cut.  [eek]  Climb cutting on a knee mill is one thing, climb cutting with a handheld router is another. CW direction. @rst  has mentioned that he uses and likes a Whiteside aluminum bit. That may be in my future.

2. I hear you...better you than me. [big grin]

3. Thanks for that Richard, I forgot about those because I've never used them before. I'm placing an 80/20 order today so I'll add a couple to the order.

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1253
Richard I know you don’t want disassemble the cart but maybe pull the systainers and flop it over on the back or side. I am really uncomfortable with out of position free hand routing.  [eek]

Ron

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2026
@Cheese great tutorial. I need to cut some slots in my assembled sys/mft cart on the front face. Since I cannot enter the slot from the end and will need to plunge I'm thinking of using an 8mm or 1/4" bit that'll fit the 15 series slot.

1. Assume you are cutting full depth in one pass, just letting the mill side-cut & shave from the slots edge?

2. It's gonna be fun cutting in a horizontal orientation...

3. PS - grab a few of these and you can use your L-brackets in slots without the carriage bolt clearance:


Thanks Richard  [smile]

1. Full depth, one pass. Produces nice little shards. Make sure you don't climb cut.  [eek]  Climb cutting on a knee mill is one thing, climb cutting with a handheld router is another. CW direction. @rst  has mentioned that he uses and likes a Whiteside aluminum bit. That may be in my future.


I'll give it a try. I've got a bazillion bits around having collected them for the Shapeoko I use too seldom. Thanks.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2026
Richard I know you don’t want disassemble the cart but maybe pull the systainers and flop it over on the back or side. I am really uncomfortable with out of position free hand routing.  [eek]

Ron

Never considered that, thanks for the suggestion Ron. Good excuse to clear out sawdust.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2026
Figured out a variation on @Cheese idea on routing out the 1515 slot to get Festool clamps in using some AL cutoffs.

Clamped some 1/4" by 2" strips to the 1515 and a 1/2" by 1.5" chunk for an end stop:





OF1400 with a 30mm copy ring and a 1/4" spiral carbide router bit at the slowest setting.



As suggested I used some Denatured alcohol for lube, cut like butter.



Using the 30mm copy ring gave me a total of 8mm in movement, 4mm each side of center. The 1/4" bit (6.35mm) took ~3mm off each side of the 8mm slot so it ended up ~14mm wide OAL, perfect for the clamps.





20 minutes to gather everything up, 5 minutes to clamp each setup together and 60 seconds for the cuts.

I am loving having a dedicated metalwork table again, the weldtables.com tab/slot tops are brilliant! So easy to use and they handle most any setup you could need for cutting, grinding, drilling/tapping, and of course welding. It's an MFT for metal.

Thanks for the inspiration @Cheese  [thumbs up]

RMW

 
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7668
Figured out a variation on @Cheese idea on routing out the 1515 slot to get Festool clamps in using some AL cutoffs.

Thanks for the shout-out @Richard/RMW I do appreciate your kind words.   [smile]   My whole reason for starting the aluminum milling thread was to encourage others to branch out and use other materials than wood. Wood, stainless, stone, aluminum, brass, plastics and even carbon fiber can have a positive impact on a wood working project. It doesn't have to be just wood. There seems to be some reluctance/trepidation for people to explore machining aluminum with wood working tools. That's a myth I want to dispell.

I've machined soapstone, slate and NY blue stone with wood working tools. You just gotta-wanna. [big grin]

On a better note...love your welding table. [thumbs up]

Because we only have a 1 car garage and it's stuffed with bicycles, motorcycles, a lawnmower, a snow blower, and Stihl lawn maintenance equipment, I had to put my welding gear in storage.  [crying]   [crying]

I really want to start welding again...FWIW...you may have pushed me over the top to revisit those areas that are so important for the creative process to continue to produce.

Nice photo's too by the way Richard, they make the process easier.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 11:17 PM by Cheese »

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1253
Hey @Cheese might want to take a look around and see if any of the community colleges or high schools offer a adult ed welding class. Our community college has one that meets for 10 3 hour sessions once a week in the evening. Once they figure out you are not going to blow yourself up or set yourself on fire, they let us work on personal projects. There are a few of us that keep taking it again for the shop time.

Ron

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2026
Figured out a variation on @Cheese idea on routing out the 1515 slot to get Festool clamps in using some AL cutoffs.

...love your welding table. [thumbs up]

Because we only have a 1 car garage and it's stuffed with bicycles, motorcycles, a lawnmower, a snow blower, and Stihl lawn maintenance equipment, I had to put my welding gear in storage.  [crying]   [crying]

I really want to start welding again...

Yea so the frames I was making yesterday are part of the 59th re-org of my massive (12' by 10') wood/metal shop caused by the careless addition of the metalworking table and welding gear. In a small workspace a random tool acquisition can snowball unbelievably easily into a situation where you (1) cannot move or (2) have every worksurface covered with stuff.

The welding gear leads to needing a stock of steel standing in 2 shop corners waiting for a rack to be built. To make room for the 24" by 48" table I had to remove 8 SF of cabinets with drawers and relo the fasteners into parts bins in cubbies hanging from the walls. With the cabinets gone there is nowhere for the drill press, disk sander or bandsaw to sit, let alone the 20V SCMS (love that machine) that is sitting on top of the tablesaw, or the 14" metal chop saw or the portaband.

The latest iteration will have a 27" deep worksurface mounted on the rear wall for all the bench tools & open underneath for the tablesaw cart, material storage and seldom used bench machines like the planer. These frames are the first step:



To get there I broke down and did a blocking plan in SU:





The plan is to have the new worksurface along the rear wall, the SYS/MFT cart and welding table on the front/side walls. Perhaps I will finally reach small-shop Nirvana, loosely defined as being able to use my tools/worksurfaces without first having to move something out of the way...

RMW

As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline rvieceli

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@Richard/RMW you need to breakdown and put up a dedicated metalworking shed.  [wink]

Ron

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2026
@Richard/RMW you need to breakdown and put up a dedicated metalworking shed.  [wink]

Ron

@rvieceli you're a mind-reader.

Working thru some coverage issues, may need a variance to expand the shop and possibly build a canopy over the grills and some storage/countertops.

And an outdoor oven. Maybe [not worthy]

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7668
Perhaps I will finally reach small-shop Nirvana, loosely defined as being able to use my tools/worksurfaces without first having to move something out of the way...

I hear you loud and clear Richard. Move items off the drill press to use it, move items off the metal chop saw to use it (and the metal chop doesn't have much real-estate in the first place  [tongue]), move items off the planer to use it. About the only tools that are safe from being used as available storage space are the 2 bench grinders.

Looking at your welding table made me think about how much some things have changed. The first welding classes I took were at the local Vo-Tech about 50+ years ago. Every welding table there was just a bunch of welded angle iron with supports that used fire brick as the welding surface. What a kluge job but that was the common solution back then.

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1253
Still have those tables at our school that’s where they do the oxy/acetylene welding 

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2026
Perhaps I will finally reach small-shop Nirvana, loosely defined as being able to use my tools/worksurfaces without first having to move something out of the way...

I hear you loud and clear Richard. Move items off the drill press to use it, move items off the metal chop saw to use it (and the metal chop doesn't have much real-estate in the first place  [tongue]), move items off the planer to use it. About the only tools that are safe from being used as available storage space are the 2 bench grinders.

Looking at your welding table made me think about how much some things have changed. The first welding classes I took were at the local Vo-Tech about 50+ years ago. Every welding table there was just a bunch of welded angle iron with supports that used fire brick as the welding surface. What a kluge job but that was the common solution back then.

You got it. In my case the bandsaw (10") is sitting on the Shapeoko3 CNC.

At the risk of totally sidetracking this thread... metal shop for me was first discovered in junior high 40+ ago. With the welding tables you described but oxy/acetylene only. We did have a couple of lathes and the same teacher taught drafting, I took every shop class I could get after that.

These new holey tables for welding seem to be recently DIY-practical, I guess due to lasers & CNC. The machined Strong Hand tables are too pricey (& heavy) for most of us DIY'ers.

In my 20's I started with a buzz box & then moved up to an old Millermatic 175 MIG and did side jobs making/selling trailers and ?? Abrasive chop saw and a 4" angle grinder I had until 20 years later SS Sandy claimed it along with the little 115V MIG I'd downgraded to following my move to the east coast. I'd been determined to replace it and last year grabbed a beautiful Miller 215 115/230 after a long internal debate over MIG/TIG ended with a practical pull the trigger and weld steel compromise. That little machine on 230V will lay down a killer bead on up to 1/4" material even though it rated for less. All this lead to the welding table and my spring-2019 shop-reorg predicament.

I just saw that Miller released a MIG/TIG AC/DC machine for around $3K & buyer's remorse set in. I'd really like to have TIG aluminum capability but that leads to multiple gasses and right back to "where the heck do I put this stuff?".

Ron's right, the only solution is more shop space.  [doh]

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7668
Hey @Cheese might want to take a look around and see if any of the community colleges or high schools offer a adult ed welding class. Our community college has one that meets for 10 3 hour sessions once a week in the evening. Once they figure out you are not going to blow yourself up or set yourself on fire, they let us work on personal projects. There are a few of us that keep taking it again for the shop time.

Ron

Ya I agree 100%...I did that for years when registering for "Machine Tool Process" at the local Vo-Tech.  Because our local Vo-Tech instructor and I both worked for 3M at the time, we became kindered spirits of sorts....and once I proved I wasn't going to destroy the shop and burn down the building I was left to do my own projects.  [smile]

An interesting footnote...I brought in 15" diameter American Racing wheels in magnesium and decided to turn the profile down because they were pitted. Everything was fine until I mentioned that they were magnesium, at which time the instructor went directly to the wall and pulled off a fire extinguisher and he stood in front of me as I turned down the profile on the wheels. Greg later stated that magnesium with the addition of a little water can start a fire that can't be easily extinguished.

I brought those magnesium chips home, started them on fire...what a show...lesson learned.

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2861
We have a facility in Chicago - Arc Academy - which is a maker space for welding and metal working.  They offer classes plus you can rent shop time for $20/hour.  Might see if there is a similar facility in your area.

Richard - I just bought the 215 miller as well.  Got the Mig and Tig package.  From what I've read on the AC/DC Mig & Tig they released, the jury might still be out on it.

neil

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2026

Richard - I just bought the 215 miller as well.  Got the Mig and Tig package.  From what I've read on the AC/DC Mig & Tig they released, the jury might still be out on it.

neil

And given the cost it's neutral if I just pick up a dedicated TIG machine. Probably will take the plunge later this summer after I get the current mess sorted out.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline 08G8V8

  • Posts: 71
Re: Part 1: Routing/Milling 80/20 for Festool clamps using an MFS & a 1010
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2019, 10:13 AM »
Forgive my ignorance, but is performing this slot widening procedure using a router table and moving the material up to a stop block on each side of the slot a bad idea?  Or is it best to have the material fixed and move the router along the material as done here?

I am a total novice, and have been buying tools to get into woodworking and in the process of designing my MFT style table based on Richard's cart.  The problem with building a work table or any project, is you sort of need a table to begin with!

Anyway, I do like the method that Richard shows that would allow me to perform this task without needing to have a MFS, but just wanted to ask the question about performing this task using a fixed base router in a table.  Thanks

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7668
Re: Part 1: Routing/Milling 80/20 for Festool clamps using an MFS & a 1010
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2019, 10:52 AM »
Forgive my ignorance, but is performing this slot widening procedure using a router table and moving the material up to a stop block on each side of the slot a bad idea?  Or is it best to have the material fixed and move the router along the material as done here?

I'd definitely clamp the aluminum down and move the router. That'd give you more control. It'd be pretty easy for the router bit to grab the aluminum extrusion and that would not be good.  [eek]

Offline 08G8V8

  • Posts: 71
Re: Part 1: Routing/Milling 80/20 for Festool clamps using an MFS & a 1010
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2019, 11:19 AM »
Forgive my ignorance, but is performing this slot widening procedure using a router table and moving the material up to a stop block on each side of the slot a bad idea?  Or is it best to have the material fixed and move the router along the material as done here?

I'd definitely clamp the aluminum down and move the router. That'd give you more control. It'd be pretty easy for the router bit to grab the aluminum extrusion and that would not be good.  [eek]

That’s what I was thinking, but having never done it I wasn’t sure. Thanks for the response, and this thread!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7668
Here's an update to this milling thread.

When I first milled out the slots in some 80/20, I used a carbide 4-flute end mill in the 1010 because that's all I had. I reasoned that the 4 flutes would reduce the amount of chip load on the cutter. What I didn't anticipate was that it also set up some very strong harmonics that would loosen the router collet nut within 3-4 minutes of use. This forced me to tighten the collet nut to a level that I thought may permanently damage/deform the collet itself.

So, for the 2nd go-around I decided to mill some slots in aluminum angle brackets that would be used with the MFS. I purchased a 2-flute router bit specifically designed to be used on aluminum. The harmonic problem pretty much disappeared however I only managed to mill 8 each 2" long slots before the cutting edges went away. This specialty aluminum bit was manufactured from HSS.  [sad]

I'm planning on milling some more aluminum so I decided to see if there was something better out there in the wild. I came across & purchased a 1-flute carbide router bit made specifically for aluminum. I haven't fired it up yet but I'll report back when I do.

https://www.toolstoday.com/solid-carbide-cnc-spiral-o-flute-aluminum-cutting-up-cut-router-bits.html


So here's the specifics from left to right.
1. SGS 4-flute spiral, solid carbide bit, 1/4" diameter #35506
2. Amana 2-flute spiral, HSS bit, 7/32" diameter #HSS1632
3. Amana 1-flute spiral, solid carbide bit (usually referred to as a "0" flute bit), 1/4" diameter #51480





A close-up of the damaged cutting edges on the HSS bit.


Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4858
@ Cheese   What speed did you use?

Am I wrong in thinking that cutting the number of flutes in half is equivalent to cutting the speed in half? That should make a difference too?

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2026
@Michael Kellough you've got it right. The issue with AL is galling, i.e. too much speed (heat) will melt the metal and clog to gullets. <flutes = fewer cuts/revolution = < heat at a given RPM.

FWIW I've been using a standard-ish carbide 2 flute spiral up-cut bit for the limited AL milling I'm doing, which has been basically widening the existing slots. IIRC the speed on the 1400 was low.

RMW


As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7668
@Cheese   What speed did you use?

Am I wrong in thinking that cutting the number of flutes in half is equivalent to cutting the speed in half? That should make a difference too?

@Michael Kellough  I can't remember the setting because I did it by sound/feel. Just like what you do with a mill you just dial it up or down until everything sounds & feels right.

I do know it was somewhere under 4 or so but it was also not at the minimum. I was really surprised because I had some terrible chatter down around 1 & 2.

In order to maintain the same chip load and the same feed rate, reducing the flute count by 1/2 would increase the bit speed by 2X.

Here's the formula that Onsrud and Freud use.

Chip Load = Feed Rate / (RPM x # of cutting edges)
Feed Rate (IPM) = RPM x # of cutting edges x chip load
Speed (RPM) = Feed Rate / (# of cutting edges x chip load)

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4858
@Cheese   never saw that formula, thanks. So, how do you figure out what the chip load should be? Is there a table?

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7668
@Cheese   never saw that formula, thanks. So, how do you figure out what the chip load should be? Is there a table?

Ya I’ll try to locate the Freud chart because it’s handier to use than the Onsrud chart. The Onsrud chart lists every chip load for every end mill they manufacture. The Freud is more generic in nature while using the same math & numbers.

The chip load is the actual size of the chip that will remove the maximum amount of heat from the  flutes of the router/milling bit. If the chip is too small (think dust) the heat removed will be minimal.

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2445
I use the single O flute router bit that Cheese refers from Toolstoday when I rout aluminum doors for exit devices.  I use my 1400 at about speed 4 and use WD-40 as lube.  I take very light cuts as far a depth is concerned as I seem to remember breaking the first two bits I tried.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7668
Found it @Michael Kellough

This is the Freud version. The Onsrud version has more materials for instance, they break plywood into hardwood ply & soft wood ply.




Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4858
@Cheese   this is great! Thank you! Never knew how to find a starting point so always just went by ear and started slow, which sometimes ruined the bit/work right away.

Based on the chip loads presented, I usually feed way too slow.

Offline 08G8V8

  • Posts: 71
Part 1: Routing/Milling 80/20 for Festool clamps using an MFS & a 1010
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2020, 11:49 AM »
I finally got around to doing a test piece based on a modified version that Richard showed, using t-nuts and screws to hold the guide pieces to the extrusion and then clamping my extrusion to the table from underneath. I had these guide pieces made up for awhile, but never got around to testing it.  Then a week or so ago a Woodpeckers Variable router jig came up for sale in he classifieds so I purchased it, but decided to stick with the plan I already had.

I will be milling slots in 1515 and 1530 profiles, so I made top guide pieces to allow for use on all sides. 

I used a 1.25” guide bushing and a .25” diameter cutter, but it doesn’t fully remove the entire lip in the channel.  Also, I guess my baseplate isn’t quite centered, so I need to re-adjust that.

This is the cutter I ordered, before the recent posts on using a 0-flute bit.

SpeTool 12411 4 Flutes Carbide CNC Square Nose End Mill, 1/4 inch shank diameter, 3 inch Long, Spiral Router Bit with Coated https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Q4J4HVB/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_XjClEb6SMKTXW

After re-adjusting the baseplate I need to figure out if I want to leave the little bit of lip, or get a 1.0” guide bushing to allow more material removal. Or, a larger 5/16” diameter cutter. 








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