Author Topic: Part 1: Routing/Milling 80/20 for Festool clamps using an MFS & a 1010  (Read 6324 times)

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Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 1960
Perhaps I will finally reach small-shop Nirvana, loosely defined as being able to use my tools/worksurfaces without first having to move something out of the way...

I hear you loud and clear Richard. Move items off the drill press to use it, move items off the metal chop saw to use it (and the metal chop doesn't have much real-estate in the first place  [tongue]), move items off the planer to use it. About the only tools that are safe from being used as available storage space are the 2 bench grinders.

Looking at your welding table made me think about how much some things have changed. The first welding classes I took were at the local Vo-Tech about 50+ years ago. Every welding table there was just a bunch of welded angle iron with supports that used fire brick as the welding surface. What a kluge job but that was the common solution back then.

You got it. In my case the bandsaw (10") is sitting on the Shapeoko3 CNC.

At the risk of totally sidetracking this thread... metal shop for me was first discovered in junior high 40+ ago. With the welding tables you described but oxy/acetylene only. We did have a couple of lathes and the same teacher taught drafting, I took every shop class I could get after that.

These new holey tables for welding seem to be recently DIY-practical, I guess due to lasers & CNC. The machined Strong Hand tables are too pricey (& heavy) for most of us DIY'ers.

In my 20's I started with a buzz box & then moved up to an old Millermatic 175 MIG and did side jobs making/selling trailers and ?? Abrasive chop saw and a 4" angle grinder I had until 20 years later SS Sandy claimed it along with the little 115V MIG I'd downgraded to following my move to the east coast. I'd been determined to replace it and last year grabbed a beautiful Miller 215 115/230 after a long internal debate over MIG/TIG ended with a practical pull the trigger and weld steel compromise. That little machine on 230V will lay down a killer bead on up to 1/4" material even though it rated for less. All this lead to the welding table and my spring-2019 shop-reorg predicament.

I just saw that Miller released a MIG/TIG AC/DC machine for around $3K & buyer's remorse set in. I'd really like to have TIG aluminum capability but that leads to multiple gasses and right back to "where the heck do I put this stuff?".

Ron's right, the only solution is more shop space.  [doh]

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

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Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6901
Hey @Cheese might want to take a look around and see if any of the community colleges or high schools offer a adult ed welding class. Our community college has one that meets for 10 3 hour sessions once a week in the evening. Once they figure out you are not going to blow yourself up or set yourself on fire, they let us work on personal projects. There are a few of us that keep taking it again for the shop time.

Ron

Ya I agree 100%...I did that for years when registering for "Machine Tool Process" at the local Vo-Tech.  Because our local Vo-Tech instructor and I both worked for 3M at the time, we became kindered spirits of sorts....and once I proved I wasn't going to destroy the shop and burn down the building I was left to do my own projects.  [smile]

An interesting footnote...I brought in 15" diameter American Racing wheels in magnesium and decided to turn the profile down because they were pitted. Everything was fine until I mentioned that they were magnesium, at which time the instructor went directly to the wall and pulled off a fire extinguisher and he stood in front of me as I turned down the profile on the wheels. Greg later stated that magnesium with the addition of a little water can start a fire that can't be easily extinguished.

I brought those magnesium chips home, started them on fire...what a show...lesson learned.

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2775
We have a facility in Chicago - Arc Academy - which is a maker space for welding and metal working.  They offer classes plus you can rent shop time for $20/hour.  Might see if there is a similar facility in your area.

Richard - I just bought the 215 miller as well.  Got the Mig and Tig package.  From what I've read on the AC/DC Mig & Tig they released, the jury might still be out on it.

neil

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 1960

Richard - I just bought the 215 miller as well.  Got the Mig and Tig package.  From what I've read on the AC/DC Mig & Tig they released, the jury might still be out on it.

neil

And given the cost it's neutral if I just pick up a dedicated TIG machine. Probably will take the plunge later this summer after I get the current mess sorted out.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline 08G8V8

  • Posts: 56
Re: Part 1: Routing/Milling 80/20 for Festool clamps using an MFS & a 1010
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2019, 10:13 AM »
Forgive my ignorance, but is performing this slot widening procedure using a router table and moving the material up to a stop block on each side of the slot a bad idea?  Or is it best to have the material fixed and move the router along the material as done here?

I am a total novice, and have been buying tools to get into woodworking and in the process of designing my MFT style table based on Richard's cart.  The problem with building a work table or any project, is you sort of need a table to begin with!

Anyway, I do like the method that Richard shows that would allow me to perform this task without needing to have a MFS, but just wanted to ask the question about performing this task using a fixed base router in a table.  Thanks

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6901
Re: Part 1: Routing/Milling 80/20 for Festool clamps using an MFS & a 1010
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2019, 10:52 AM »
Forgive my ignorance, but is performing this slot widening procedure using a router table and moving the material up to a stop block on each side of the slot a bad idea?  Or is it best to have the material fixed and move the router along the material as done here?

I'd definitely clamp the aluminum down and move the router. That'd give you more control. It'd be pretty easy for the router bit to grab the aluminum extrusion and that would not be good.  [eek]

Offline 08G8V8

  • Posts: 56
Re: Part 1: Routing/Milling 80/20 for Festool clamps using an MFS & a 1010
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2019, 11:19 AM »
Forgive my ignorance, but is performing this slot widening procedure using a router table and moving the material up to a stop block on each side of the slot a bad idea?  Or is it best to have the material fixed and move the router along the material as done here?

I'd definitely clamp the aluminum down and move the router. That'd give you more control. It'd be pretty easy for the router bit to grab the aluminum extrusion and that would not be good.  [eek]

That’s what I was thinking, but having never done it I wasn’t sure. Thanks for the response, and this thread!


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Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6901
Here's an update to this milling thread.

When I first milled out the slots in some 80/20, I used a carbide 4-flute end mill in the 1010 because that's all I had. I reasoned that the 4 flutes would reduce the amount of chip load on the cutter. What I didn't anticipate was that it also set up some very strong harmonics that would loosen the router collet nut within 3-4 minutes of use. This forced me to tighten the collet nut to a level that I thought may permanently damage/deform the collet itself.

So, for the 2nd go-around I decided to mill some slots in aluminum angle brackets that would be used with the MFS. I purchased a 2-flute router bit specifically designed to be used on aluminum. The harmonic problem pretty much disappeared however I only managed to mill 8 each 2" long slots before the cutting edges went away. This specialty aluminum bit was manufactured from HSS.  [sad]

I'm planning on milling some more aluminum so I decided to see if there was something better out there in the wild. I came across & purchased a 1-flute carbide router bit made specifically for aluminum. I haven't fired it up yet but I'll report back when I do.

https://www.toolstoday.com/solid-carbide-cnc-spiral-o-flute-aluminum-cutting-up-cut-router-bits.html


So here's the specifics from left to right.
1. SGS 4-flute spiral, solid carbide bit, 1/4" diameter #35506
2. Amana 2-flute spiral, HSS bit, 7/32" diameter #HSS1632
3. Amana 1-flute spiral, solid carbide bit (usually referred to as a "0" flute bit), 1/4" diameter #51480





A close-up of the damaged cutting edges on the HSS bit.


Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4548
@ Cheese   What speed did you use?

Am I wrong in thinking that cutting the number of flutes in half is equivalent to cutting the speed in half? That should make a difference too?

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 1960
@Michael Kellough you've got it right. The issue with AL is galling, i.e. too much speed (heat) will melt the metal and clog to gullets. <flutes = fewer cuts/revolution = < heat at a given RPM.

FWIW I've been using a standard-ish carbide 2 flute spiral up-cut bit for the limited AL milling I'm doing, which has been basically widening the existing slots. IIRC the speed on the 1400 was low.

RMW


As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6901
@Cheese   What speed did you use?

Am I wrong in thinking that cutting the number of flutes in half is equivalent to cutting the speed in half? That should make a difference too?

@Michael Kellough  I can't remember the setting because I did it by sound/feel. Just like what you do with a mill you just dial it up or down until everything sounds & feels right.

I do know it was somewhere under 4 or so but it was also not at the minimum. I was really surprised because I had some terrible chatter down around 1 & 2.

In order to maintain the same chip load and the same feed rate, reducing the flute count by 1/2 would increase the bit speed by 2X.

Here's the formula that Onsrud and Freud use.

Chip Load = Feed Rate / (RPM x # of cutting edges)
Feed Rate (IPM) = RPM x # of cutting edges x chip load
Speed (RPM) = Feed Rate / (# of cutting edges x chip load)

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4548
@Cheese   never saw that formula, thanks. So, how do you figure out what the chip load should be? Is there a table?

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6901
@Cheese   never saw that formula, thanks. So, how do you figure out what the chip load should be? Is there a table?

Ya I’ll try to locate the Freud chart because it’s handier to use than the Onsrud chart. The Onsrud chart lists every chip load for every end mill they manufacture. The Freud is more generic in nature while using the same math & numbers.

The chip load is the actual size of the chip that will remove the maximum amount of heat from the  flutes of the router/milling bit. If the chip is too small (think dust) the heat removed will be minimal.

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2293
I use the single O flute router bit that Cheese refers from Toolstoday when I rout aluminum doors for exit devices.  I use my 1400 at about speed 4 and use WD-40 as lube.  I take very light cuts as far a depth is concerned as I seem to remember breaking the first two bits I tried.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6901
Found it @Michael Kellough

This is the Freud version. The Onsrud version has more materials for instance, they break plywood into hardwood ply & soft wood ply.




Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4548
@Cheese   this is great! Thank you! Never knew how to find a starting point so always just went by ear and started slow, which sometimes ruined the bit/work right away.

Based on the chip loads presented, I usually feed way too slow.

Offline 08G8V8

  • Posts: 56
Part 1: Routing/Milling 80/20 for Festool clamps using an MFS & a 1010
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2020, 11:49 AM »
I finally got around to doing a test piece based on a modified version that Richard showed, using t-nuts and screws to hold the guide pieces to the extrusion and then clamping my extrusion to the table from underneath. I had these guide pieces made up for awhile, but never got around to testing it.  Then a week or so ago a Woodpeckers Variable router jig came up for sale in he classifieds so I purchased it, but decided to stick with the plan I already had.

I will be milling slots in 1515 and 1530 profiles, so I made top guide pieces to allow for use on all sides. 

I used a 1.25” guide bushing and a .25” diameter cutter, but it doesn’t fully remove the entire lip in the channel.  Also, I guess my baseplate isn’t quite centered, so I need to re-adjust that.

This is the cutter I ordered, before the recent posts on using a 0-flute bit.

SpeTool 12411 4 Flutes Carbide CNC Square Nose End Mill, 1/4 inch shank diameter, 3 inch Long, Spiral Router Bit with Coated https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Q4J4HVB/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_XjClEb6SMKTXW

After re-adjusting the baseplate I need to figure out if I want to leave the little bit of lip, or get a 1.0” guide bushing to allow more material removal. Or, a larger 5/16” diameter cutter. 








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