Author Topic: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions  (Read 103800 times)

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Offline tsmi243

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #300 on: November 01, 2021, 12:57 PM »
For what it's worth-

I bought a PGS, Mk2 about a month ago, and haven't put it to use yet.  But this video had me wondering- so I mocked it up on my MFT, and took a reading.

It's real.  It's about 0.010" of play.  You can tell just by feeling with your hand that the play is coming from the pin ends, not the drill guide.  The pins ARE dead tight in the MDF, and the drill guide joint has no tangible play, but the joint from the pin to the parf stick DOES. 





It really does FEEL like quite a bit of slop, but how much actual error is this?  Well, it's 0.010" at the end of a 39" run, so if my trig isn't too rusty, I'm getting 0.014 degree angle change (somebody please check this, I flunked out of college over a decade ago  [big grin]).   But that's the included angle- any actual error will be half this amount one way or the other.  So you're looking at 99.992% accuracy for your square cuts, if that's only if you do the WORST possible job when drilling your dog holes.  As Peter says, keeping the parf sticks in the center of the range will minimize this even further, and isn't hard to do by eye. 




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Offline tsmi243

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #301 on: November 01, 2021, 01:01 PM »
Followup to the above post---

I replaced the pins with tapered drywall screws to hold the far ends down, removing ALL play at that end.  The drill guide is now the weakest link, and the wiggle room dropped to 0.004".  Which I think is fantastic. 

Just by feel, the difference between 0.010" and 0.004" is pretty huge.  If it had been 0.004" right out of the box, I don't think I would have noticed it.  The ten-thou sticks out like a sore thumb. 

Offline AndrewG

  • Posts: 150
Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #302 on: December 03, 2022, 10:36 PM »
Hi all,

Just wondering if this is the most accurate way of extending the holes to the left and right of the bench? Where the two pins are on the top parf stick is where the last holes are.

Many thanks!




Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #303 on: December 04, 2022, 06:38 AM »
Hi @AndrewG

I have just tried and failed to get a page of instructions to you with some diagrams - the FOG software is not the most friendly at times. I have even tried adding the instruction manual to this post with no luck. So...

Please follow this link:

https://www.axminstertools.com/ujk-technology-parf-guide-system-mkii-104779

Scroll down to and click on "Information Downloads" and then click on "Instruction Manual"

Peter

Offline AndrewG

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #304 on: December 04, 2022, 05:26 PM »
Thanks Peter- I actually had read the instructions but misinterpreted them.

I think I got the right set up now? 6-8-10 method


Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #305 on: December 05, 2022, 12:02 PM »
Hi @AndrewG

That does not look right. You should be creating a 6 - 8 -10 triangle. Maybe it is the angle of the camera - the left hand pin in the top ruler should be in the same column as the pin on the left on the angled ruler. Also, the number of 96 mm spaces should be 6 between those two pins.

Peter

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #306 on: December 05, 2022, 12:58 PM »
That looks okay to me, although the wide angle perspective makes it difficult to be sure.

Taking perspective in mind it looks like the important pins are in the same column and it looks like there are 6 rows between those pins.

Offline AndrewG

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #307 on: December 06, 2022, 01:56 AM »
Hi @AndrewG

That does not look right. You should be creating a 6 - 8 -10 triangle. Maybe it is the angle of the camera - the left hand pin in the top ruler should be in the same column as the pin on the left on the angled ruler. Also, the number of 96 mm spaces should be 6 between those two pins.

Peter
Hi Peter,

Thanks for the reply. I’ve attached another photo which hopefully is clearer for you. I’m pretty confident it’s real but just want the tick of approval before I start drilling!

Many thanks.





Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #308 on: December 06, 2022, 05:47 AM »
Hi @AndrewG

Perfect - many thanks for clarifying that as I would hate to give poor advice.

I recently gave a talk at a college here in the UK and I was asked to demo the PGS. I took along a folding MFT3 size bench that I made about 5 or 6 years ago. It had "gone missing" after a demo about 3 years ago and had come to rest in a stock room at Axminster. The 20 mm holes needed to be reamed out after such a long time without a dog going into them but it was still perfectly accurate.

My current tracksaw cutting station has lasted over 3 years and shows no sign of abuse. I think that reflects a slower work rate on my part as I used to produce a new one about every 2 years. What has helped is using a sheet of thin plastic over the top when I do glue-ups or apply Osmo.

Cheers.

Peter

Offline AndrewG

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #309 on: December 06, 2022, 09:53 PM »
Thanks Peter - glad to hear it’s held up over the years

Offline zak911

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #310 on: December 14, 2022, 01:32 AM »
Hi @AndrewG

In your first picture you show 3 registered pins. I don't think that is possible unless the rulers are in the correct orientation.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2022, 01:59 AM by zak911 »

Offline zak911

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #311 on: December 14, 2022, 02:45 AM »
Hi Peter, Frank, and tsmi243,

I'm about ready to order this kit, and find this "slop" issue a little concerning. Peter, you described it as having a neutral position and to "make sure the ruler(s) is not moved beyond that neutral rest position". However, tsmi243 describes it differently: "keeping the parf sticks in the center of the range will minimize this even further, and isn't hard to do by eye". This sounds more like you have to find the center of the range. Frank and tsmi243, did you experience feeling a neutral position that you had to move it from?

If this slop was cumulative then I could see it as being a problem. However, you would be able to check it by making sure the triangle could be pinned throughout the grid. That would ensure that your error wasn't cumulative and would be no greater than the original slop. I haven't seen any user complaints stating that their resulting grid wasn't accurate. Peter, you demonstrated with the 4 cut method that yours is very accurate. I wonder if others have actually tested theirs with similar results.

All of us have probably experienced clamping 2 boards together while gluing and seeing how easily they shift. That is because it is very hard to get the clamps perpendicular to the boards. When you tighten the clamps, they naturally want to move to that perpendicular position, and the slippery glue makes that shift easy. With slick guides on slick MDF I could see this as possible. I would suggest making a very thin pencil line against the rulers while they are in the neutral position prior to clamping. Then you could verify that your clamping technique doesn't cause a shift.

Offline tsmi243

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #312 on: December 14, 2022, 10:20 AM »
tsmi243, did you experience feeling a neutral position that you had to move it from?

There's friction between the rules and the table top, as you said, so it doesn't completely spring into place.   And to clarify, the 1st rule moving under clamps isn't the issue.  It's the 2nd setup (the triangle) that determine the squareness.  The first hole you drill where the two sticks overlap is the most important one, and THAT hole is where I'm getting 0.010" of play in the pins. 

And again, 0.010" was the maximum travel I got, so it's really only 0.005" error, and only because I was TRYING to maximize the error.  If you feel around for center, even a minimum effort could net you a true error of 1 or 2 thou instead.  Across more than 36".  Whether that's worth worrying about, is up to you.

Offline Ampman117

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #313 on: December 14, 2022, 05:19 PM »
I ordered the Parf Guide Mk II as I plan to put together an MFT to use with my TS 55, however, my drill is a cordless 18v Makita. I think it’s the LXPH01.

Should I be worried about run out / drill accuracy / anything else? Or is this drill going to be fine to drill the holes? Thanks


Offline me_two

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #314 on: December 15, 2022, 04:05 AM »
The Drill will be fine. I made my mft  with a Hikoki cordless drill and the PARF guide.
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Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #315 on: December 15, 2022, 10:38 AM »
I ordered the Parf Guide Mk II as I plan to put together an MFT to use with my TS 55, however, my drill is a cordless 18v Makita. I think it’s the LXPH01.

Should I be worried about run out / drill accuracy / anything else? Or is this drill going to be fine to drill the holes? Thanks

The brand doesn’t matter but if you see the bit wobble when running get a different drill. Runout and jigs are not compatible.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #316 on: December 16, 2022, 10:12 AM »
Hi @zak911

The system is really accurate and very easy to use as long as the instructions are followed and no short cuts taken. The PGS has had the most 5 start reviews of any product on the Axminster web site - take a look at those comments if you need convincing.

Cheers.

Peter

Offline zak911

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #317 on: December 16, 2022, 03:38 PM »
Hi Peter and tsmi243,

Thank you for the responses. I am convinced that the slop isn't an issue and I will be ordering soon.

Offline AndrewG

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #318 on: December 17, 2022, 01:52 AM »
Ok, so another question regarding the PG mk2. I’ve just drilled all the 3mm holes and everything lined up perfectly - very happy.

I’ve now started drilling the 20mm holes and at the stage where I need to use the 20mm locater dogs. I’ve noticed there is the tiniest bit of wobble when the dogs are in the parf jig registering with the existing 20mm holes drilled using the jig registering with the pins only.

The holes are tight in the top with no movement, they’re not the issue. The issue is when they’re in the jig through the holes in the top.

I even tried using it with the super dogs with the larger collar - same issue. As you can see in the photo the dogs do fit in the jig, but if I move it front to back there is a very small amount of movement.

So it’s got to be the jig I assume? Does anyone elses jig have the smallest amount of play when the locater dogs are in the jig when drilling out the 20mm holes?

Thanks once again

Cheers


Offline hdv

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #319 on: December 17, 2022, 05:41 AM »
I know this is totally daft (please don't laugh too hard [embarassed] ), but I am still thinking of a way to modify this system to make 3/4" or 19 mm holes.  [huh]

I don't own any 20 mm stuff and am not planning to buy any either. I get by with 19 mm holes just fine. I have a serious collection of clamps and jigs to go with them too. However, there are some applications where an exactly spaced/placed grid of holes might be useful. Even in my case.

Any ideas on how to approach this best? I guess I'd need to replace the bearings and the dogs. Anything else?


Offline Ampman117

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #320 on: December 24, 2022, 12:51 AM »
So it’s got to be the jig I assume? Does anyone elses jig have the smallest amount of play when the locater dogs are in the jig when drilling out the 20mm holes?

I started drilling my top today. I haven't got all my 20mm holes drilled yet, but I did try placing the jig using the locator dogs in a few spots - no play in my jig when I did that.

I'm going to do the remaining 20mm holes that require locator dogs tomorrow or possibly after Christmas. If I get any play in the jig over the course of the remaining holes I will let you know.

Offline Ampman117

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #321 on: December 24, 2022, 01:02 AM »
Any ideas on how to approach this best?

I'm totally new to this, so take this with a grain of salt...but if you have jigs or other things that are sized for 3/4 holes maybe you could use the 20mm anchor dogs to attach your jigs to the 20mm top?

If you don't have jigs or other equipment that really needs the 3/4 holes, buying into the 20mm system could be less of a headache...

Online HowardH

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #322 on: December 27, 2022, 11:52 AM »
I needed to make a MFT top but I used my Shaper Origin instead.  It was pretty easy to create a grid of 20mm holes on a 96mm spacing using the snap to grid function.  It turned out well enough for my needs.

Howard H
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Mark Twain:  "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a letter approving of it." "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything."

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Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #323 on: December 27, 2022, 04:37 PM »
@HowardH curious how the accuracy is over that large a tape field? Are you planning to use the top with tall dogs/guide rails for cutting?

I made an aluminum fence with Origin to use with a Parf guide-made MFT and found that the holes were off just enough to mess up alignment when I got further out from 0/0 point on the grid. The error was only around a couple 100ths of an inch but it was enough to mess up my use.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Online HowardH

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #324 on: December 27, 2022, 05:00 PM »
@HowardH curious how the accuracy is over that large a tape field? Are you planning to use the top with tall dogs/guide rails for cutting?

I made an aluminum fence with Origin to use with a Parf guide-made MFT and found that the holes were off just enough to mess up alignment when I got further out from 0/0 point on the grid. The error was only around a couple 100ths of an inch but it was enough to mess up my use.

RMW

I'm going to use it as an assembly table. I have a complete Dash-board system coming my way soon to use as a cutting station.  I will say it is very accurate. The only way for it not be accurate is if I screwed up the .svg file I made to make it. That's the beauty of it. I scanned the entire tape field as a workspace and place the file on that.  It doesn't know or care if I am drilling one hole or 200. 
Howard H
The Dallas Texas Festool Fanatic!

Mark Twain:  "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a letter approving of it." "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything."

P1cc, T15, TID-18, RO150FEQ, ETS EC 150, MT55cc, RTS400, CT22, CT36E, 800, 1080, 1400, 1400 holey, 1900 rails, OF1400, OF1010, CSX, C18, LR32, VacSys, Vecturo, Domino, Qwas dogs, Parf Dogs, Zobo's, Syslite Uni, CMS GE, PM 1500, Jet J/P, FS-WA, Shaper Origin. Felder AF-14, TSC 55 KEB, Dash-Board bench system

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #325 on: December 27, 2022, 05:06 PM »
@HowardH curious how the accuracy is over that large a tape field? Are you planning to use the top with tall dogs/guide rails for cutting?

I made an aluminum fence with Origin to use with a Parf guide-made MFT and found that the holes were off just enough to mess up alignment when I got further out from 0/0 point on the grid. The error was only around a couple 100ths of an inch but it was enough to mess up my use.

RMW

I'm going to use it as an assembly table. I have a complete Dash-board system coming my way soon to use as a cutting station.  I will say it is very accurate. The only way for it not be accurate is if I screwed up the .svg file I made to make it. That's the beauty of it. I scanned the entire tape field as a workspace and place the file on that.  It doesn't know or care if I am drilling one hole or 200.

As I understand it there is a cumulative reduction in tolerance the further you get from 0/0 on the grid. Shaper I believe publishes the spec, I don't recall the specifics but over a large MFT it's probably enough to mess up a cut with dogs for alignment.

For assembly it's not an issue.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Online HowardH

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #326 on: December 27, 2022, 05:09 PM »
I never knew that but I'm not sure how that's possible when each position is mapped out precisely at 96mm intervals.  I believe what you are saying but I need to ask the Shaper folks about that. 
Howard H
The Dallas Texas Festool Fanatic!

Mark Twain:  "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a letter approving of it." "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything."

P1cc, T15, TID-18, RO150FEQ, ETS EC 150, MT55cc, RTS400, CT22, CT36E, 800, 1080, 1400, 1400 holey, 1900 rails, OF1400, OF1010, CSX, C18, LR32, VacSys, Vecturo, Domino, Qwas dogs, Parf Dogs, Zobo's, Syslite Uni, CMS GE, PM 1500, Jet J/P, FS-WA, Shaper Origin. Felder AF-14, TSC 55 KEB, Dash-Board bench system

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #327 on: December 27, 2022, 05:19 PM »
I never knew that but I'm not sure how that's possible when each position is mapped out precisely at 96mm intervals.  I believe what you are saying but I need to ask the Shaper folks about that.

If you are on their forum there are a couple threads with specifics. IIRC it's basically a limit in the accuracy of the camera over a distance.

Some folks have posted about techniques to minimize it, but one thread referred to an offset of 1.5mm over 800.

For most woodworking it's really not an issue, an MFT used for a cutting station is an outlier.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Online HowardH

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #328 on: December 27, 2022, 06:31 PM »
I reached out to Shaper Support and they directed me to this link from the Shaper forum. This excerpt is from their CEO:

"With Origin, the best way to think about accuracy is in terms of a percentage of target. Origin is currently capable of achieving ~99.7% or 99.8% overall accuracy. For small projects (e.g. ~6 inches or under), expected accuracy of cuts performed by a reasonably experienced user may be measured in single-digit thousandths of an inch. For medium-size projects (e.g ~1 to 3 feet), expected accuracy of cuts may be measured in hundredths of an inch. For larger size projects (e.g. ~4 to 8 feet), expected accuracy may be measured in tenths of an inch."

Seems to me that a .002" over 8' is pretty good. (.2"/96")
Howard H
The Dallas Texas Festool Fanatic!

Mark Twain:  "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a letter approving of it." "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything."

P1cc, T15, TID-18, RO150FEQ, ETS EC 150, MT55cc, RTS400, CT22, CT36E, 800, 1080, 1400, 1400 holey, 1900 rails, OF1400, OF1010, CSX, C18, LR32, VacSys, Vecturo, Domino, Qwas dogs, Parf Dogs, Zobo's, Syslite Uni, CMS GE, PM 1500, Jet J/P, FS-WA, Shaper Origin. Felder AF-14, TSC 55 KEB, Dash-Board bench system

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #329 on: December 27, 2022, 08:06 PM »
I reached out to Shaper Support and they directed me to this link from the Shaper forum. This excerpt is from their CEO:

"With Origin, the best way to think about accuracy is in terms of a percentage of target. Origin is currently capable of achieving ~99.7% or 99.8% overall accuracy. For small projects (e.g. ~6 inches or under), expected accuracy of cuts performed by a reasonably experienced user may be measured in single-digit thousandths of an inch. For medium-size projects (e.g ~1 to 3 feet), expected accuracy of cuts may be measured in hundredths of an inch. For larger size projects (e.g. ~4 to 8 feet), expected accuracy may be measured in tenths of an inch."

Seems to me that a .002" over 8' is pretty good. (.2"/96")

And I don't disagree this is awesome given the conditions. It would likely impart error for the cutting station use of an MFT, no issue for clamping. I wasn't trying make any other point.

My own use to make the AL fence was within a couple hundredths over a 288mm length, with 0/0 at the mid point. Dogs slipped right thru into the underlying MFT holes.

I'd first tried to do it with 0/0 at one end and by the time I got to the far end the few hundredths had added up and I'd would have needed to hammer the last dog in. Still an awesome level of accuracy, just not enough for the use I was aiming for.

You may get better results.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!