Author Topic: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions  (Read 72216 times)

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Offline Dusty.Tools

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #240 on: December 28, 2019, 09:01 PM »
Hi All,

I need some advice on using the Parf Guide Mk2 that I have.

When I purchased it, I created a small 30 hole top and it came out perfectly square.

This weekend I started working on a 50 hole and a 150 hole top. I started with the 50 hole top and used the locking screw pin to create the triangle. There's a very little wiggle in this setup, maybe 1mm. I have only done the pilot holes, but everything appeared to work out well based on eyeballing everything using a square.

When I went to do the 150 hole top I used the drill bushing with the long locking collar. In this position there's quite a considerable wiggle. You can see it in this video:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B6oiQ_DgpBT

I decided to push on, and tried to line up the rule using a square. Unfortunately this didn't work because as I moved up the top drilling each row, the ruler started to bow when it was locked into place. By the 9th row it was almost impossible. I attempted to improvised by using the Pythagoras method to attempt to do each row but the right hand column is definitely not parallel with the left hand column.

As an aside - When I line up the two rulers, using the locking pin in #0 hole, I noticed that #10 holes are not aligned, maybe 1mm off. I am not sure this would be the cause of the issue... Photo below.

Has anyone else seen this? I am not entirely sure what parts are not as accurate as needed.... Or is a ~3mm difference across a 1000mm top with in accepted tolerances?

Thanks

Ben
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Offline Mike Goetzke

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #241 on: December 29, 2019, 11:04 AM »
@Dusty.Tools

What version rules (sticks do you have)? Maybe this is the issue? Took me three sets to get it right - we'll plus some light filing and surface grinding.

Mike

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #242 on: December 29, 2019, 11:52 AM »
Hi Ben @Dusty.Tools

How long ago did you buy the PGS? There was an issue with a few of the rulers a while back and Axminster sacked one of their subcontractors and brought the manufacture in-house.

Peter

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #243 on: December 29, 2019, 12:53 PM »
I have no idea. It was less than 0.01% of sales at that time. There are many tens of thousands of systems in use now and Axminster have provided a complete no quibble response.

Peter

Offline Dusty.Tools

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #244 on: December 29, 2019, 12:57 PM »
Hi Ben @Dusty.Tools

How long ago did you buy the PGS? There was an issue with a few of the rulers a while back and Axminster sacked one of their subcontractors and brought the manufacture in-house.

Peter
Hi Peter,

I ordered them on Jul 29th ?

Ben

PS I’m a big fan, I was gutted that I missed a demo you did at the Axminster in August. I was visiting from Seattle but couldn’t get to the store on the right day!


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Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #245 on: December 29, 2019, 01:29 PM »
Hi Ben,

Yours should be fine. I do remember the mix up of dates and I am sorry to have missed you. If you plan to come across again please let me know and I will see if we can meet up at an Axminster store nearer to London.

Cheers.

Peter

Offline Dusty.Tools

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #246 on: December 29, 2019, 01:35 PM »
Hi Ben,

Yours should be fine. I do remember the mix up of dates and I am sorry to have missed you. If you plan to come across again please let me know and I will see if we can meet up at an Axminster store nearer to London.

Cheers.

Peter
That’d be awesome! We will probably visit my parents later in the year.

So should I worry about this wiggle? Is 1.5mm with in tolerance?


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Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #247 on: December 29, 2019, 04:07 PM »
No, 1.5 mm is not within the tolerance and so it needs to be looked at. Contact me by PM and I will give you my email address so that we can go through some checks together.

Peter

Offline Dusty.Tools

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #248 on: December 29, 2019, 04:19 PM »
No, 1.5 mm is not within the tolerance and so it needs to be looked at. Contact me by PM and I will give you my email address so that we can go through some checks together.

Peter
Thank you!


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Offline Mike Goetzke

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #249 on: December 30, 2019, 10:21 AM »
I have no idea. It was less than 0.01% of sales at that time. There are many tens of thousands of systems in use now and Axminster have provided a complete no quibble response.

Peter

Peter - love your videos and have learned many of your techniques plus you helped me when I had my original issues with the sticks but this is the second time I have seen 0.01% had issues (10 out of 10,000 / 100 out of 100,000?). This is impossible based on the issues I have seen on this forum.

In my opinion Axminster was good at sending replacements but not solving the issues with the sticks and poor packaging. My third set of sticks were the newer "sheared" holes but they had crud in the holes that I had to hit lightly with a file and surface burrs around the holes that required some light Dremel grinding to remove. TSO kindly reached out and offered me a new set of sticks but I felt it would be hit or miss that they would be superior to the third set I had.

Hopefully Axminster has quality and international shipping under control now and you can help Ben get his issues resolved.

Mike

Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #250 on: January 25, 2020, 02:53 PM »
Hi,
 I bought the mark 2 PARF Guide set and applicable accessories last summer but was generally disappointed. I followed the instructions and used rigorous discipline while laying out my MFT table top, but the hole placement was not accurate.  I contacted my vendor with evidence that my PARF sticks were not precise, and was promptly sent two extra PARF sticks which were equally disappointing.

 I attempted to correspond in detail about the topic but the matter does not seem to have a ready solution. I felt like I had wasted the money. While I did think I had wasted my money, I was confident that I could ask for and receive a no questions asked refund, but I would prefer to have a system that is actually useful. As of now, I have a system that I am suspicious of, and which I can confirm is not accurate enough to faithfully use as a right angle cutting jig. It has been long enough that I do not think about having wasted the money, but the next time I make a MFT table top I will wish the PARF guide system worked better.

 My suggestion is that the PARF sticks need to be fabricated from a material that is no where near as flexible as the current sticks.

 A thick bar of G10 FR4 Glass Epoxy would seem more practical.

 In the meantime, here is one of several documents I prepared and shared with my vendor with the intention that the information would be forwarded to Axminster as well as anyone who might facilitate improvement.

 http://www.harmoniccycle.com/hc/images/photos/Parf/Parf_Stick_assessment.html

 Thank you.
 

Offline Dusty.Tools

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #251 on: February 03, 2020, 12:46 AM »
Just wanted to report back on my issues.

After receiving EXCELLENT support from Peter and Axminster I was sent two new rulers.

When compared to my original pair of rulers there was a clear issue in the holes of the original set.

I just completed a test on a scrap of MDF and when I completed a square everything lined up perfectly with no wiggle at all.

So i’m very happy :)




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Offline Dusty.Tools

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #252 on: February 03, 2020, 03:26 AM »
Just wanted to report back on my issues.

After receiving EXCELLENT support from Peter and Axminster I was sent two new rulers.

When compared to my original pair of rulers there was a clear issue in the holes of the original set.

I just completed a test on a scrap of MDF and when I completed a square everything lined up perfectly with no wiggle at all.

So i’m very happy :)




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Here’s my first finished top. Took me a little over two hours :)





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Offline Dusty.Tools

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #253 on: February 03, 2020, 03:21 PM »
Quote from: box185 link=topic=58028
Can you share the dates when you ordered your first PGS and when you received the new rulers?
I brought the set in July and got replacements in Jan.


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Offline Vtshopdog

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #254 on: February 05, 2020, 01:04 PM »
FWW:
Wanted to add a "happy customer' voice to the chorus.

Just took delivery on PGS Mark-2 from Axminster.  Ordered on Sunday and received on Wednesday morning in western US.

After reading posts here and noting issues from other buyers I'd like to report that my unit is dead on:

Shipped double boxed in a rectangular carton that was in great condition. 
Holes in both rulers match when aligned with one another in various orientations.
Interface tolerances on hardware is snug but not too tight.
Product documentation states that ruler edges are not considered straight edges and this appears to be true.

Having read this entire thread, it appears a great deal of scrutiny was applied to the product tolerances and the manufacturer responded by improving things and taking input.  (I do wonder if applying machine shop tolerances to woodworking is valid when stock will expand, shrink and change shape with the weather, but that's just me ....)

I won't put mine to use until March, but see no reason when used carefully that I won't get excellent results from this tool. 



Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #255 on: February 05, 2020, 08:25 PM »
...(I do wonder if applying machine shop tolerances to woodworking is valid when stock will expand, shrink and change shape with the weather, but that's just me ....)...

This is an argument that sounds like it is based on wisdom until one considers how blatantly dismissive it seems with regards to the many people who want to use an MFT system to cut relatively stable materials such as plywood sheet goods.

As an example; in my case I want to use my 4'x8' MFT table top to cut up sheets of plywood.

I have no intention of using a MFT to cross cut solid wood, where by the way stability issues are minimized and precision has often been thought to seem advantageous, and will never use a MFT system to rip solid wood, where admittedly the cycles of expansion and contraction will have measurable effect on the finished work piece.

So how does a statement dismissing an appreciation for close tolerances apply in this context? Is it an acceptance of the circumstance, and a statement of opinion that differing opinions should be dismissed as folly?

If the materials were not capable of maintaining stability, I would be satisfied with a carpenters square and forgo the expense of acquiring an exquisitely machined apparatus that simply provides "wood shop tolerances". I already had "wood shop tolerance" capability.

When I work with solid wood I am satisfied with the jigs I use on my table saw, miter saw, radial arm etc.

With my PARF Guide purchase, I bought into a system in order to leverage the "machine shop tolerances" of the industrial machines that make the PARF Guide tool. It seemed like an opportunity to access a high level of precision on my 4'x8' work bench.

The compelling fact that the idea is based upon an established theorem reassures me that a high expectation is not unreasonable. I believe if the PARF sticks were made out of an appropriately stiff and stable material the promise could be delivered.

I had hoped my MFT table top would provide a great improvement for working with large pieces of sheet goods, but my experience is that the PARF sticks are too flexible to maintain the precision that was intended to exist.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 09:11 AM by Woody Knotsensplintahs »

Offline ben_r_

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #256 on: February 05, 2020, 09:35 PM »
Dang I still havent opened my Parf 2 Kit yet, been sitting in here for months. Guess I should probably get those rulers out and check them to see how well the holes line up.

What would be the best method for checking them? Using the Joining Screw to fix one side of the holes together and checking how closely the holes line up at the other end?
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Vtshopdog

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #257 on: February 05, 2020, 10:41 PM »
It feasible the ruler holes could be in an arc or zig zag and still match if the error was duplicated in both rulers and you happened to line them up with same orientation.  Checking with rulers joined in multiple orientations will expose a drilling error (my set had none)

I checked by using the joining screw with the rulers in several orientations:

Left ends of rulers joined front to back then front to front
Right and left ends of rulers joined front to front and front to back

Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #258 on: February 06, 2020, 09:28 AM »
...I should probably get those rulers out and check them to see how well the holes line up.
What would be the best method for checking them? Using the Joining Screw to fix one side of the holes together and checking how closely the holes line up at the other end?

I did this when I first received my PARF Guide mkII set. I placed the shoulders of 10 6mm bolts in the PARF sticks and the holes all lined up. I flipped the sticks over, oriented them backwards and forwards and performed these "test" numerous times, because such a procedure will seemingly account for duplicated irregularities in the hole placement and reveal any misalignment.

Everything looked good, but now I understand that this is because the sticks are flexible enough to conform if you want the holes to appear as if they are lined up.

Unfortunately, when I laid out my 4' x 8' table and measured the placement of the guide holes I became aware of and made measurements of various discrepancies that increase in scale as the grid pattern expands further form the origin.

Further investigation led me to imagine a simple method of assessing the precision of the placement of the holes in my PARF sticks:

The method is described here: http://www.harmoniccycle.com/hc/images/photos/Parf/Parf_Stick_assessment.html

The assessment of my PARF sticks explained to me why the pattern in the table top that I laid out exhibits random levels of adherence to the right angle ideal.





.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 09:38 AM by Woody Knotsensplintahs »

Offline id192313

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #259 on: May 23, 2020, 11:57 AM »
Hi, I have just started making my mft top and found that the pin is very hard to insert. Need to use my palm and a thick cloth to push the pin down. Is so tight that I need to use a rubber mallet to hammer from the bottom and most of the time I need a plier to pull it out. The 2 pins also came out from the holder. Brought it in Dec 2018 and only start to come around using it now.

my hand and fingers really sore now after drilling a full sheet of mdf.

Does anyone experience this with their parf guide?

Offline gnlman

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #260 on: May 23, 2020, 12:03 PM »
Hi. I've been wondering if the ruler issue had been worked out yet....Went thru 3 sets of rulers and wasted 3 sheets of material...finally gave up and chucked the parf system in the corner, and used another method....wasted money so far...but this post does have me wondering if the issues has been corrected...I bought mine early direct before they were available...service was good in sending me replacements...once manufactured, but after three tries and a lot of time spent I just moved on....anyone know if the ruler issue is good now?
Greg

Offline AstroKeith

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #261 on: May 23, 2020, 12:09 PM »
I've just marked out and drilled about 200 holes. Everyone perfect.
Retired engineer/scientist

Offline gnlman

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #262 on: May 23, 2020, 12:12 PM »
wanna trade rulers...lol
Greg

Offline TSO_Products

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #263 on: May 23, 2020, 12:42 PM »
Hi, I have just started making my mft top and found that the pin is very hard to insert. Need to use my palm and a thick cloth to push the pin down. Is so tight that I need to use a rubber mallet to hammer from the bottom and most of the time I need a plier to pull it out. The 2 pins also came out from the holder. Brought it in Dec 2018 and only start to come around using it now.

my hand and fingers really sore now after drilling a full sheet of mdf.

Does anyone experience this with their parf guide?

welcome to the FOG and to TSO.
We'll help you - call me right now this Saturday  afternoon to get you going.

Hans
800 727-0311
or email your phone number FOG name and real name so we can connect the dots -  to hans@tsoproducts.com

Offline id192313

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #264 on: June 02, 2020, 09:10 AM »
Hi TSO thanks for the offer but I brought it from UK.

I managed to finish the table by gluing back the pin but it still a major issue with the tightness. After drilling all the 20mm holes the parf dog need to be hammer out from below. It is super tight.

I did the 5 cuts test but vey disappointed at the result. Tried many time to just square all the side but failed. At least 1 mm off. Just could not get a perfect square. Maybe I’m doing it wrong. Now waiting for Axminister response.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 09:19 AM by id192313 »

Offline TSO_Products

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #265 on: June 02, 2020, 09:46 AM »
Hi TSO thanks for the offer but I brought it from UK.

I managed to finish the table by gluing back the pin but it still a major issue with the tightness. After drilling all the 20mm holes the parf dog need to be hammer out from below. It is super tight.

I did the 5 cuts test but vey disappointed at the result. Tried many time to just square all the side but failed. At least 1 mm off. Just could not get a perfect square. Maybe I’m doing it wrong. Now waiting for Axminister response.

@id192313 -buying from TSO is not a prerequisite for getting help with woodworking - especially for FOG members [smile]
As I wrote before, email me your phone number so I can call and help you directly. No reason for you not to get good results.

Hans
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Offline Hollatime

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #266 on: June 28, 2020, 05:30 AM »
Having an issue getting good results, ordered from Axminister roughly start of May this year so assumed the old issues were worked out. I reached out to support but guess they are closed through the weekend, and plenty of knowledgeable users here.

How much, if any play should be in the 3mm bushing?

Given I am pretty terrible at the entirety of woodworking, have followed protocol/watched every video/multiple attempts so truly the worlds worst or just missing out on something here.

One attempt the first 10 holes were not straight. I clamped the parf stick, ensured bushings fully seating/no dust etc, max try hard mode really. The bizzare part about this is I did the double checking that Matt Estlea does in his review as well and seemed to look good, which I dunno.

I tried again and used double sided tape to secure the stick, same issue first 10 not even straight but better than the attempt before.

I haven’t done independent testing of each stick yet to see if I can isolate something, and measuring the holes/bushings seems fine and know my measuring abilities probably not the most accurate. Also the bushing has to be able to get in the hole and what not tolerance wise.

Only things I could think of would be-

Something happening when clamping the stick, why I tried double sided tape next go
Stick/s machined incorrectly
Play within the standard 3mm bushing


The 3mm bushing will rock side to side and is a bit tippy, but hold it with a death grip. It will spin freely and can shift somewhat laterally without the tipping.

I checked the 3mm holes with the pins to try to isolate any issues happening while drilling the 20mm holes and a 36” Veritas steel straight edge taps

Tried to upload a vid but guessing that’s a premium app feature, will edit it in later

Again know user error generally my biggest hurdle but really put my try hard pants on with this I feel. Really would like to get the parf system working since the fit is basically perfect, if anything a bit snug with some manufacturers.


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Offline AstroKeith

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #267 on: June 28, 2020, 07:03 AM »
Having an issue getting good results, ordered from Axminister roughly start of May this year so assumed the old issues were worked out. I reached out to support but guess they are closed through the weekend, and plenty of knowledgeable users here.

How much, if any play should be in the 3mm bushing?

Given I am pretty terrible at the entirety of woodworking, have followed protocol/watched every video/multiple attempts so truly the worlds worst or just missing out on something here.

One attempt the first 10 holes were not straight. I clamped the parf stick, ensured bushings fully seating/no dust etc, max try hard mode really. The bizzare part about this is I did the double checking that Matt Estlea does in his review as well and seemed to look good, which I dunno.

I tried again and used double sided tape to secure the stick, same issue first 10 not even straight but better than the attempt before.

I haven’t done independent testing of each stick yet to see if I can isolate something, and measuring the holes/bushings seems fine and know my measuring abilities probably not the most accurate. Also the bushing has to be able to get in the hole and what not tolerance wise.

Only things I could think of would be-

Something happening when clamping the stick, why I tried double sided tape next go
Stick/s machined incorrectly
Play within the standard 3mm bushing


The 3mm bushing will rock side to side and is a bit tippy, but hold it with a death grip. It will spin freely and can shift somewhat laterally without the tipping.

I checked the 3mm holes with the pins to try to isolate any issues happening while drilling the 20mm holes and a 36” Veritas steel straight edge taps

Tried to upload a vid but guessing that’s a premium app feature, will edit it in later

Again know user error generally my biggest hurdle but really put my try hard pants on with this I feel. Really would like to get the parf system working since the fit is basically perfect, if anything a bit snug with some manufacturers.


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Lets work through this in stages.

1. check the holes are 'straight' on the Part sticks with a straight edge
2. drill a long row of 3mm holes in a piece of scrap wood. Use decent clamps to hold sticks at each end to the wood. (ie not double sided tape)
3. check the 3mm holes are 'straight' with a straight edge.

report back with findings!
Retired engineer/scientist

Offline Hollatime

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #268 on: June 28, 2020, 10:32 AM »
Having an issue getting good results, ordered from Axminister roughly start of May this year so assumed the old issues were worked out. I reached out to support but guess they are closed through the weekend, and plenty of knowledgeable users here.

How much, if any play should be in the 3mm bushing?

Given I am pretty terrible at the entirety of woodworking, have followed protocol/watched every video/multiple attempts so truly the worlds worst or just missing out on something here.

One attempt the first 10 holes were not straight. I clamped the parf stick, ensured bushings fully seating/no dust etc, max try hard mode really. The bizzare part about this is I did the double checking that Matt Estlea does in his review as well and seemed to look good, which I dunno.

I tried again and used double sided tape to secure the stick, same issue first 10 not even straight but better than the attempt before.

I haven’t done independent testing of each stick yet to see if I can isolate something, and measuring the holes/bushings seems fine and know my measuring abilities probably not the most accurate. Also the bushing has to be able to get in the hole and what not tolerance wise.

Only things I could think of would be-

Something happening when clamping the stick, why I tried double sided tape next go
Stick/s machined incorrectly
Play within the standard 3mm bushing


The 3mm bushing will rock side to side and is a bit tippy, but hold it with a death grip. It will spin freely and can shift somewhat laterally without the tipping.

I checked the 3mm holes with the pins to try to isolate any issues happening while drilling the 20mm holes and a 36” Veritas steel straight edge taps

Tried to upload a vid but guessing that’s a premium app feature, will edit it in later

Again know user error generally my biggest hurdle but really put my try hard pants on with this I feel. Really would like to get the parf system working since the fit is basically perfect, if anything a bit snug with some manufacturers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lets work through this in stages.

1. check the holes are 'straight' on the Part sticks with a straight edge
2. drill a long row of 3mm holes in a piece of scrap wood. Use decent clamps to hold sticks at each end to the wood. (ie not double sided tape)
3. check the 3mm holes are 'straight' with a straight edge.

report back with findings!
1. I didn’t really know the best way to gauge this. I laid a straight edge on the top/bottoms of the holes and nothing seemed drastically off. Laying the sticks on top of each other seemed OK as well but always uncertain if they’re aligned.

I also swapped the sticks after drilling the holes to see if they matched. I noticed for certain on one hole the rule would shift when placing the third pin (1 in 0, 10 holding the parf stick). I had suspicions on some other holes but again kinda just peering at this thing and wondering if it moved/would it even be relevant.

Both lines weren’t straight to best my abilities to determine. Substrate was mdf-i, dyed with transtint and 2 coats of Osmo poly x. Siliconed to a steel frame. Used 2 of the screw mft clamps and one of the ratchet ones and it would’ve been pretty difficult to move the parf stick I think. Straight edges were the 1” thick steel variants from Lee Valley (12,24,36”) and double checked with a 12” Starrett and 24” PEC blemished rule from combo squares.

Both lines had multiple configurations that would cause the straightedges to rock. Checked both sides, moved the line around a bit to try to see if it was just one bad hole but nothing really stood out and enough of the configurations seemed off. There were some configurations that appeared straight/didn’t tap.

Seated the bushing, pecked, no gross show of error while drilling or the bushing tipping. I feel a bit silly sitting there like intensely focused on form but like lol something is not going right. Reminds me of just recently discovering my ts55 has something borked where the blade will cant even after removing the side plate/adjusting back to 90. I could probably win gold in the track saw olympics after recording and analyzing my form assuming I’m just bowing the rail or pushing sideways or something. Maybe finally have the excuse to buy the Mafell.

Can’t imagine if perfect drilling technique was such a requirement that this system could even be based on drill bushings/widely well reviewed and in general always assume user error.

Made sure to try to tap the straight edges straight and what not since the pins are curved, again try hard mode engaged for sure.

Offline AstroKeith

  • Posts: 210
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #269 on: June 28, 2020, 12:09 PM »
Don't think I can help any more. I just have drilled 200+ holes and they are all within 0.1mm of spot on. 90% of them I cant measure any error at all. I was careful in drilling vertical, but not super so. Perhaps you have a duff set?
Retired engineer/scientist