Festool Owners Group

FESTOOL DISCUSSIONS => Festool Jigs & Tool Enhancements => Topic started by: wch on December 16, 2018, 04:51 PM

Title: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: wch on December 16, 2018, 04:51 PM
I recently got my Parf Guide Mark II system, and I have some issues and questions.

First off, it looks like one of the Parf sticks has hole spacing that is ever-so-slightly greater than the other. The error is such that over the 960mm from hole 0 to hole 10, one stick has holes that are around 0.10-0.15mm farther apart than the other one. Has anyone else encountered this before?

My grid is 15 wide by 7 high. When using the Parf sticks to make the "starter" set of 11x7 holes, it worked out OK. Next, I extended the grid to the right by adding 4 holes to the top row and 4 holes to the bottom row. Then I tried to connect the far-right top and bottom holes by pinning one of the Parf sticks to the top-right hole and bottom-right hole. Unfortunately, the 3mm holes I drilled in the table were slightly too far apart, and the pins wouldn't seat all the way. I think this is because the 3-4-5 triangle that was used to create the grid was slightly off, resulting in a grid that wasn't quite square.

I'm concerned that with the slight error of the holes, when I try to cut a right angle, the angle could be off by an amount that will cause problems when I try to do precise work. Is that a reasonable concern? I watched Peter Parfitt's video where he found that cuts on the workbench he made had an error of about 0.03 degrees per cut, which is very good.

Incidentally, the fact that I'm encountering fit problems when the error is so small is a testament to the overall precision of the Parf Guide system.

I have a few other questions that hopefully someone here can help answer. These first two relate to how close to perpendicular the holes will be.



Here are some pictures that show the misalignment of the holes.

With the fixing pin connecting both Parf sticks at hole 0, the longer drill guide seats easily all the way into hole 1.

[attach=1]

With the fixing pin still at 0, the drill guide fits tightly in hole 5. In this picture, it's tight enough that I'm able to lift both Parf sticks off the table with the friction.

[attach=2]

With the fixing pin still at 0, the drill guide won't go through both Parf sticks at hole 10.

[attach=3]


Using calipers going through both Parf sticks at hole 1, I measured a width to be 5.98mm.

[attach=4]

If I lift the calipers slightly so that it's engaging the hole in only one of the Parf sticks, the width is 6.00mm.

[attach=5]


At hole 10, going through both Parf sticks, the width is 5.86mm.

[attach=6]

At hole 10, lifting the calipers slightly so that it engages the hole in only one Parf stick, the width is 5.99mm.

[attach=7]
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on December 18, 2018, 04:26 AM
This is something that Axminster will sort out and the OP is now aware that that is the best route to take if there is any suspicion of a faulty part.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: tallgrass on December 18, 2018, 12:48 PM
do you have gauge pins to measure the holes? Just curious.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: wch on December 18, 2018, 04:36 PM
I contact Axminster about the issue and they must have agreed that the ones pictured above are defective, because they promptly shipped out some replacement Parf sticks.

tallgrass, I don't have any gauge pins, but I believe that, based on my measurements, the holes themselves are within 0.02mm of 6.00mm -- it's just that they're not spaced exactly the same on both Parf sticks, so that that when the two sticks are on top of each other and registered at hole 0, the further you get from hole 0, the more out of alignment the holes get.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: tallgrass on December 18, 2018, 08:06 PM
I am sure you are correct. I was just curious. measuring holes accurately with Veneers can be fiddly. I always suggest when people get calipers or veneers, they should get a reference block, small surface plate and a set of pins.

These kind of jigs can have horrendously difficult tolerances to measure accurately. Especially when dealing with something like this. I am always impressed with these various solutions and how "accurate" they are, especially when dealing with the implications of accumulative error. Sounds like they handled it well.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on December 19, 2018, 05:04 PM
Side by side, the metric scales are different between the original Parf stick and the Mark II Parf stick - not sure yet about the hole spacing. Other than a relative comparison, I also do not know which one is more accurate. Does any of this matter?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on December 20, 2018, 12:57 AM
Side by side, the metric scales are different between the original Parf stick and the Mark II Parf stick - not sure yet about the hole spacing. Other than a relative comparison, I also do not know which one is more accurate. Does any of this matter?

The metric scales are not relevant to the function f the tool and were put there as a bonus. If you go into any store and take rules and tape rules and compare them you will find variation between manufacturers. That is why one is encouraged to use just one for the duration of a project.

I have covered all of this in my "Measuring and Marking video from a while back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqddRHxe0Hw

The Original PGS and the PGS Mark 2 are expected to produce the same degree of accurate layouts of 20 mm holes. The Mark 2 will last longer as there are no moving parts to wear out the Parf Sticks.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Euclid on December 20, 2018, 04:02 AM
The scale on the 'stick' seems like something of a distraction in this matter.

What is important (for the resulting "squareness" or "perpendicularity" of the resulting hole pattern), however, is that the spacing between the holes is consistent - and that the two sticks used are identical. The former is a matter of pre-production planning; the latter would seem to be virtually guaranteed (barring some highly bizarre circumstances in production). If either of those conditions were not met, I'm sure some difficulties would be encountered in laying out the hole pattern on a worktop, long before one got as far as cutting any wood.

If you want the resulting hole pattern to conform accurately to the 32mm (or any other) system, then the actual distance between the holes on the sticks becomes important too.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on December 20, 2018, 05:57 AM
. . . and that the two sticks used are identical.

. . . the latter would seem to be virtually guaranteed (barring some highly bizarre circumstances in production).

If I understand it correctly, this seems to be the problem encountered by the OP. If there were some highly bizarre circumstance in production, I would think more than one set of sticks would be affected.

Is it possible that the two sticks were made in different production runs? I doubt that the two sticks I received were produced consecutively. Was production outsourced to meet demand?

I certainly don’t expect them to be perfect, but they should be consistent. Are there any other reports of this problem? Any comments from Peter?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Euclid on December 20, 2018, 06:16 AM
Ah, I see what you mean box185; (I was, at first, imagining the OP was comparing the measurement scales but clearly that's not so).
Thus, my comments stand in a general sense - but are not solving this particular situation.
Sorry!
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on December 20, 2018, 08:49 AM
The two Parf Sticks shown with their scales compared are from different products and were made on different machines The material and processes used to create the improved Mark 2 Parf Sticks are quite different as well.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on December 20, 2018, 10:25 AM
. . . but the meter itself has not changed. Because I am now in the process of checking the hole size and spacing on the MK II sticks I received, I started by taking a quick look at the scales. They are different, and that causes me to question the hole pattern. What I have seen so far is that one of the two sticks seems alright, but the second one appears to have oblong holes. I will be looking at these with gauge pins, but still . . . the end user should not see these problems.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on December 20, 2018, 12:01 PM
. . . but the meter itself has not changed. Because I am now in the process of checking the hole size and spacing on the MK II sticks I received, I started by taking a quick look at the scales. They are different, and that causes me to question the hole pattern. What I have seen so far is that one of the two sticks seems alright, but the second one appears to have oblong holes. I will be looking at these with gauge pins, but still . . . the end user should not see these problems.

If you have any issues whatsoever use the excellent Customer Services at Axminster. You will get any problem you have resolved very quickly and it will save you time as well. They do not monitor the FOG and so contacting them yourself is the best way forward.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: marmot on December 20, 2018, 01:35 PM
I still maintain that the easiest and cheapest way to replicate an MFT top is as follows:


*Purchase the Sys-MFT Systainer and remove the Festool-brand MDF top from it.  The top on it is removable and can be re-attached later with the same torx screws on the underside of the lid.  I think it's 4 or 6 screws total.  Mine was very easy to remove.  ~1 minute or so.
http://www.amazon.com/Festool-500076-SYS-MFT-Tabletop-Systainer/dp/B00F0GJW12

*Purchase three or four 20mm dogs to hold the Sys-MFT top in place while you clamp it down and drill.

*Buy a 20mm drill bit.  There are a few different bits that would be suggested around here.  If you let it this can actually be one of the most expensive parts of this method!

*Line the Sys-MFT top up square in a corner of your MDF or bench top surface.  There are a few ways to ensure it's square on the wood.  Clamp it securely so it will not move at all during drilling - which is actually surprisingly easy because of the recessed clamping areas on the MDF top - then drill your first hole.  If you have a drilling jig use it, but it's not that important due to the depth of the Sys-MFT MDF top which helps keep the bit straight and completely negates speed wobble.  Router bits are actually not as great because they cut from the side.  Insert your 20mm dog into the first hole to help keep it in line even more, leaving it clamped.  Drill the additional holes, inserting dogs into the holes as needed.

*After all holes for that section have been drilled, remove the clamps and dogs, and re-position the Sys-MFT top using the dogs as a guide to keep it straight and square.  Keep repeating the process as needed until you get as many holes in your bench top as you want.

---------------
You can just use a standard drill.  I used the PDC-18, and all of my holes are identical, perfectly square and in-line.  The Forstner bit's cutting motion (only straight down) and the depth of the Sys-MFT hole's sidewalls are enough to keep your work perfectly clean.  You essentially get holes that were good enough for Festool when they batched out their tops for Sys-MFT.  Unless you're a machinist and/or are working for NASA, you're good.  It's woodworking.  The wood will move in greater increments than the tolerances Festool used anyway.


The Sys-MFT is actually extremely valuable as well - it's one of the most underrated Festool products out there.  At ~$78.00 I am very surprised more people don't feature it in threads.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: travisj on December 21, 2018, 01:22 AM
I still maintain that the easiest and cheapest way to replicate an MFT top is as follows:


*Purchase the Sys-MFT Systainer and remove the Festool-brand MDF top from it.  The top on it is removable and can be re-attached later with the same torx screws on the underside of the lid.  I think it's 4 or 6 screws total.  Mine was very easy to remove.  ~1 minute or so.
http://www.amazon.com/Festool-500076-SYS-MFT-Tabletop-Systainer/dp/B00F0GJW12

*Purchase three or four 20mm dogs to hold the Sys-MFT top in place while you clamp it down and drill.

*Buy a 20mm drill bit.  There are a few different bits that would be suggested around here.  If you let it this can actually be one of the most expensive parts of this method!

*Line the Sys-MFT top up square in a corner of your MDF or bench top surface.  There are a few ways to ensure it's square on the wood.  Clamp it securely so it will not move at all during drilling - which is actually surprisingly easy because of the recessed clamping areas on the MDF top - then drill your first hole.  If you have a drilling jig use it, but it's not that important due to the depth of the Sys-MFT MDF top which helps keep the bit straight and completely negates speed wobble.  Router bits are actually not as great because they cut from the side.  Insert your 20mm dog into the first hole to help keep it in line even more, leaving it clamped.  Drill the additional holes, inserting dogs into the holes as needed.

*After all holes for that section have been drilled, remove the clamps and dogs, and re-position the Sys-MFT top using the dogs as a guide to keep it straight and square.  Keep repeating the process as needed until you get as many holes in your bench top as you want.

---------------
You can just use a standard drill.  I used the PDC-18, and all of my holes are identical, perfectly square and in-line.  The Forstner bit's cutting motion (only straight down) and the depth of the Sys-MFT hole's sidewalls are enough to keep your work perfectly clean.  You essentially get holes that were good enough for Festool when they batched out their tops for Sys-MFT.  Unless you're a machinist and/or are working for NASA, you're good.  It's woodworking.  The wood will move in greater increments than the tolerances Festool used anyway.


The Sys-MFT is actually extremely valuable as well - it's one of the most underrated Festool products out there.  At ~$78.00 I am very surprised more people don't feature it in threads.


My dealer suggested a similar method for when it came time to replace MFT tops.  Essentially use the old top as a template with a router and a bearing guided template bit.  Router bit should be more accurate than a drill and bit.  An actual MFT top could be more accurate than using the SYS-MFT top since more holes would be bored off of the same template prior to moving, less likely to misalign.

All of that said, I used the Parf guide on my outfeed table and couldn’t be happier.


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Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Farming_Sawyer on December 21, 2018, 07:00 AM

The Sys-MFT is actually extremely valuable as well - it's one of the most underrated Festool products out there.  At ~$78.00 I am very surprised more people don't feature it in threads.

I love my Sys-mft. Im about to buy a second. Use it all the time on the job. But in the time it takes to remove the top, align it on a top I could have squared the Parf system and been drilling a grid. Trying to accurately drill holds thru an mft top is needlessly slow if you want accuracy and are trying not to damage the template.

A router and template bit won't work on existing 20mm holes because the resulting holes will be too small. Enlarging the template mft top holes for a guide bushing is as much work as making a top. The Parf guide costs a bit more than a pre  made top but is so much more useful than a fixed template.
I'm very happy with its purchase. Now I just need to find a way to simply make the Sys-mft tops....



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[/quote]
Title: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Scorpion on December 21, 2018, 09:36 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181221/6740dc7cd6abadee1a2132ac6bbb0050.jpg)

Can’t blame the machine, looks to me like the they forgot to take the width of the markings into account when laying out the rule in CAD.  Lacking some quality control processes too it would appear.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ChuckM on December 21, 2018, 10:26 AM
I still maintain that the easiest and cheapest way to replicate an MFT top is as follows:

*Purchase the Sys-MFT Systainer

Snip.

The Sys-MFT is actually extremely valuable as well - it's one of the most underrated Festool products out there


I don't use or need (for now at least) an MFT platform, but it's good to know that my Sys-MFT can be used to make a clone MFT! I have all the items (drill, dogs, etc. you list). Thank you for sharing this.

You're right that the Sys-MFT is underrated and, in my case, underused. The brand new item has been in my shop, never used for two years or more. Could you share how you use it or what you use it for in your shop?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Farming_Sawyer on December 21, 2018, 10:54 AM
On the job away from the main work area, it's great. Also as a portable extension for table or chop saw, or for holding the end of a long board for shaping. [attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: travisj on December 21, 2018, 05:52 PM

The Sys-MFT is actually extremely valuable as well - it's one of the most underrated Festool products out there.  At ~$78.00 I am very surprised more people don't feature it in threads.

I love my Sys-mft. Im about to buy a second. Use it all the time on the job. But in the time it takes to remove the top, align it on a top I could have squared the Parf system and been drilling a grid. Trying to accurately drill holds thru an mft top is needlessly slow if you want accuracy and are trying not to damage the template.

A router and template bit won't work on existing 20mm holes because the resulting holes will be too small. Enlarging the template mft top holes for a guide bushing is as much work as making a top. The Parf guide costs a bit more than a pre  made top but is so much more useful than a fixed template.
I'm very happy with its purchase. Now I just need to find a way to simply make the Sys-mft tops....



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[/quote]

I misspoke.  A router and a bearing guided flush trim bit is what I meant to say.  Lay the MFT top on the new surface, drill a clearance hole, and trim the the holes in the new surface with the flush trim bit.

This suggestion was years before the Parf Guide came into existence.  I have the Mk I version of the guide and used it on my outfeed table.  I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend it or use it again on whatever surface I wanted system holes in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Cheese on December 21, 2018, 06:27 PM
The Sys-MFT is actually extremely valuable as well - it's one of the most underrated Festool products out there.  At ~$78.00 I am very surprised more people don't feature it in threads.

I agree...I have one attached to my CT 22 and one attached to my MIDI. Open them up and inside you’ll find pencils, felt markers, MFT clamps, a few sheets of sandpaper, a small pad of  note paper and a vac nozzle or vac brush. Pretty handy little mobile work bench.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: gnlman on December 28, 2018, 04:36 PM
Hi. I thought I'd bring this thread back to life, and glad I came across it today.

I ordered the Mark II system from Axeminster tools as it was not available in NA yet and was not sure when it would be...
I was planning on making a top for my paulk style workbench I am building, and wanted it for the holidays when I had some time off.

I rec'd it towards end of November and like a lot of people do, I opened up the package inspected it to make sure all parts where there and no damage..then put it back in the packaging until I was going to use it. I didn't check the sticks for alignment issues as they seemed to be fine just eyeballing the holes....

Today I decided to start my new top and when I tried to align the 2 sticks with the threaded pin, the pin was difficult to install...the sticks would not lay flat once thru both sticks which made me think something was off. I took the 2 sticks and stacked them like the OP and found the same results.

I have contacted Axeminster tools, and am totally confident they will sort this out for me.

I realise that this system is now available in NA, and the only reason I'm posting this again is there may be more folks that have now purchased this item, and like myself only inspected it for damage ect., and not used it yet. Hopefully if you are one of them and read this post you will check our sticks for accuracy in case you don't use the system for a while and when you go to use it you can't.
The rest of the parts for the system seem to be very accurate and machined very well to me. I'm sure once this gets sorted out it will be a great system for making larger benchtops.
Greg



Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Bernmc on December 28, 2018, 06:33 PM
I've also got my PGII from Axminster recently, and used over the last few days. I didn't have any issues with the standard spacing grid - everything seemed to line up properly. Where I did encounter a problem was with the offset 32 hole, which seems to be out. I couldn't install the little pin with the stick flat on the table, and when I used Peter's recommended 'put the pin in the stick in the air and then place the whole thing on the table, it bowed the parf stick slightly (and seems to have left a permanent slight bow/twist in the guide).

I'm not confident enough in my own skill and accuracy to rule out user error, but it would seem strange that everything else seems to line up perfectly. I'll let Axminster know and see what comes of it. I have a Paulk workbench pending, and two tops to do, so it'll get another workout shortly.

Hard to photograph well, but I had a go. ALthough the pic is of the no. 10 hole, it’s actually the 32 offset hole drilled previously, and I was then using the parf stick to check alignment. Side view is the bow in the stick now (it’s not pinned to the bench in this pic)
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: wch on January 05, 2019, 01:31 AM
I received my replacement Parf sticks from Axminster. The package arrived fairly beat up. In the original order, the kit arrived in a tube inside a box, and was well protected. This time, it was just the tube, with no box.

[attach=1]

The Parf sticks were bent.

[attach=2]

I was able to bend them back a bit, but they still didn't quite rest flat.

I'll call my first pair of Parf sticks A and B, and the second pair C and D. As I described earlier, the holes in A and B were slightly out of alignment. So were the holes in C and D. Luckily, the holes in A and C did line up, so I used that pair. (Of the six possible pairings, that was the only pair where the holes were in good alignment.)

Even though C was slightly bent, it didn't cause any problems with the hole layout.

This time, the hole layout went much more smoothly. In my previous attempt, I had some situations where I extended the top and bottom rows of 3mm holes to the right, but then could not get the Parf stick to line up with both the right-most top and bottom holes. This time, I didn't have that problem. There were a few situations where it was very tight and difficult to insert two distant pins through the Parf stick holes into the 3mm holes drilled in the MDF, but I found that I was able to push the pins sideways just a little, and since the MDF has a little give to it, this would slightly extend or shorten the distance between the pair of pins, allowing them to seat all the way in the Parf stick.

I found that inserting and removing the pins was in general very difficult because the fit in the holes was very tight. There's no way I could have inserted and removed them by hand without assistance. I ended up putting clamps on the pins (and leaving them on) so that there was a much larger handle to push, pull, and twist the pins. Here's a picture of the 20mm guide pinned to the worktop, where each pin is being held by a quick clamp.

[attach=4]

I added some holes that were offset by 48mm both horizontally and vertically, and I used the UJK chamfer cutter to chamfer the holes. Here is the end result. I think it turned out very nicely!

[attach=3]

One thing that I was curious about was how close to perpendicular the 20mm holes would be. I drilled the 3mm holes as close to perpendicular as I could by hand, and the same for the 20mm holes. The guides help immensely, but still, most of the holes were slightly out of perpendicular. Here is a typical one; some were slightly better, some were slightly worse. (For this photo, I positioned the square from the direction that had the most error.)

[attach=5]

I also noticed that holes on one side of the the worktop tended to tilt one way, and holes on the other side tended to tilt the other way, probably because I have a systematic bias when drilling the holes (say, angling to the right), and I stood on opposite sides of the table to drill holes that were on opposite sides.

This could be an issue when the dogs are used to position the guide rail. Obviously, the thicker the stock being cut, the higher up the guide rail will be, and so the greater the cut error. I suspect that the small amount of error won't cause any real problems. The error could be reduced by using dog holes that are as far apart as possible -- this will reduce the error angle.

I also noticed that if I placed three dogs in one row, then pushed a good straightedge up against them, in most cases I could rock the straightedge a little bit (with the middle dog acting as the pivot point) if it was on one side of the dogs, but not the other. This indicates that the holes are slightly non-colinear. Again, I suspect that the amount of error is small enough that it won't cause any problems in real-world usage.

[attach=6]

I don't have access to a Festool MFT table, so I don't know how my worktop compares in terms of accuracy. At any rate, I am looking forward to getting some good use out of it!
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: cubevandude on January 05, 2019, 08:54 AM
I'd be wild if I got a package like that.
I'd say your problems are because your sticks are bent.  The tolerances are so tight any bend would affects how it works.  I have the mark 1 system from Lee Valley and bent one of the pins ever so slightly and it is tighter to insert, just by lifting up one end of the stick before removing the pin.   I've never had any problems with accuracy with the Mark 1 jig.  They whole key to the system is drilling the 3mm holes properly as they are the guide for the 20mm bit.  There are a few videos our there in which they are not using the guide dog when drilling the 3mm holes.  I think that is why they created the MarkII. To try and eliminate human error.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: wch on January 13, 2019, 12:29 AM
A few more follow-up notes on this:

I did the four-cut test on a 24"x24" piece of hardboard, and the error I found per cut was only 0.021 degrees, which is actually better than the 0.031 which Peter Parfitt in the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i8-CJO9Es) where he tested it. So I'm very pleased with the accuracy of the work top!

One thing worth mentioning is that the hardboard was only 3/32" thick; it's possible that the error will be larger with thicker stock due to holes being slightly off from being perfectly vertical (as I showed in an earlier photo), and the higher-positioned rail therefore being more offset.

I finished the table with three coats of water-based polyurethane. This had the result of making the surface a bit rougher and grippier. I think it's because the water raised the "grain" of the MDF. I'm glad this happened, because I have had some issues with narrow stock moving when it's being cut. I would actually like to make the surface even grippier than it is, but I'm not sure how to do that now.


I'd be wild if I got a package like that.
I'd say your problems are because your sticks are bent.  The tolerances are so tight any bend would affects how it works.

I actually found that the bent sticks (which were from the second shipment) didn't cause problems in accuracy. I made sure to push the bent part flat when I used it. The problem was that the holes were not spaced exactly the same in the first pair of Parf sticks. I haven't contacted Axminster about it yet because I've been very busy with other things. Hopefully they'll be able to provide some sort of remedy.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on January 13, 2019, 01:01 AM
What is important (for the resulting "squareness" or "perpendicularity" of the resulting hole pattern), however, is that the spacing between the holes is consistent - and that the two sticks used are identical.

I'm sure there are a lot of people here who are not interested in this level of detail, but I'll post this information because I found the results interesting. I have the MK II Parf Guide System and like the OP, I also noticed problems with the hole spacing. I finally got around to making some careful measurements, and discovered a pattern.

First, I checked the hole diameters with metric Gauge Pins. The results seemed good - most holes were 6.00 mm or 6.01 mm ( only one hole was 6.02 mm ). The distance between the holes, however, seems to alternate between being 0.003 to 0.004 inch short on the expected value and being 0.003 to 0.004 inch long. With that much difference between the measurements, my dial calipers were accurate enough to detect the pattern. I was also able to measure the distance between one pair of holes, lock the calipers and clearly see that the adjacent pair of holes are different. The measurements were rounded to the closest 0.001 inch.

PS 1      PS 2
3.539   3.539
3.547   3.547
3.540   3.540
3.547   3.548
3.539   3.540
3.547   3.546
3.540   3.540
3.547   3.548
3.539   3.540
3.547   3.547

Given the 96 mm spacing of 6 mm holes, the expected distance between the holes should be 96 - 6 mm, or 3.5433 inches.

I contacted Axminster on 20 December as Peter Parfitt suggested. On 03 January, I reached out again and received the following reply.

"We are currently working on a solution to this issue and the correct stock will be dispatched shortly

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Kevin King
Specialist Sales Advisor
"

I have not heard anything since 03 January.

I am not an expert in tolerance measurements, but the pattern I saw seems to indicate a quality issue with the MK II product.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on January 13, 2019, 08:08 AM
I have been in contact with Axminster about this and they believe that a batch of 5 pairs of rulers may be affected by a manufacturing error. They had already sold out of the Mark 2 system before this came to light. They are now waiting for some blanks to arrive in order to produce replacements and new stock.

Unfortunately the Christmas and New Year breaks, which were in two short periods for Axminster, have delayed he arrival of the blanks.

I am really sorry for the disruption and disappointment that this has caused for those affected. As soon as I get any more news I will let you know.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: wch on January 13, 2019, 10:20 AM
box185, good idea to measure the spacing between each adjacent pair of holes.

I just measured the spacing on my ruler A (as I mentioned previously, I labeled the two from my first shipment A and B, and the two from the second shipment C and D). My results, in mm:

89.91
90.07
89.90
90.06
89.93
90.07
89.95
90.07
89.92
90.10

I checked the other rulers as well, and found that they all had a similar alternating pattern. I will be contacting Axminster about this as well.

Although this didn't prevent me from making a work surface that gives me very accurate results with the 4-cut test, I do wonder if some of the tight spots (where I had to push the pins sideways a bit) were caused in part by this issue.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on January 13, 2019, 10:35 AM
Hi @wch

Can you provide a picture of the equipment and method that you are using to produce results to 2 decimal places of a mm please?

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: wch on January 13, 2019, 10:55 AM
Can you provide a picture of the equipment and method that you are using to produce results to 2 decimal places of a mm please?

I'm just using some cheap digital calipers. It reads to .01mm, but I don't know if it's really that accurate. I'm sure that, combined with my measurement method, the values I gave were not accurate to .01mm. It might be more like +/- .02 or .03mm, but I can't say for sure.

The way I measured was to put the jaws in the two holes, and while pushing the jaws together gently, and I wiggled the caliper until it settled to a minimum value.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Dick Mahany on January 13, 2019, 01:07 PM
Can you provide a picture of the equipment and method that you are using to produce results to 2 decimal places of a mm please?

I'm just using some cheap digital calipers. It reads to .01mm, but I don't know if it's really that accurate. I'm sure that, combined with my measurement method, the values I gave were not accurate to .01mm. It might be more like +/- .02 or .03mm, but I can't say for sure.

The way I measured was to put the jaws in the two holes, and while pushing the jaws together gently, and I wiggled the caliper until it settled to a minimum value.

Another way to measure for hole center spacing would be to put pins in the holes and measure to the outside of the dowels/pins, then subtract the diameter of one pin from the measurement.  It is likely that both the drilled holes and the ground pins/dowels are of high precision and the pin diameters are quite easy to measure.  I have found it more convenient and more repeatable to measure this way than trying to measure directly inside between two  holes.  Just a suggestion to consider.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on January 13, 2019, 01:25 PM
Nobody is disputing that there has been a small number of rulers produced which were outside of tolerance but I must caution everyone about measuring techniques.

As a rule of thumb any digital device in a sensible budget range should be viewed as not accurate beyond +/- 5 of the of the final decimal point on the screen. Some can be better and the top of the range devices will be very accurate indeed.

When Axminster agreed to take on the various new "Parf" products I insisted that they had the measuring equipment necessary to do their QA. In order to measure the size and spacing of the holes on the rulers they have purchased a machine for that task alone. It cost over £25,000 and there are about another £10,000 of precision reference blocks, probes and so on to make the whole thing work. Also, it is used in a temperature controlled area and items introduced to that area have to be given time to adjust to that temperature.

So, digital kit in the sub £1,000 range should always be used with the final digit to the right of the decimal point as a rounding mechanism for the digit to the left. That means that 1.76 should be read as 1.8 and 0.7182 should be read as 0.718.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on January 13, 2019, 02:11 PM
I spoke to one of the machinists where I work and asked him how to measure the distance between holes spaced on 96 mm centers. He suggested a technique, but also cautioned me to consider the instrument that I am using to measure with.

When I started, I was not certain that I would accomplish anything. That changed when I was able to measure the distance between one hole pair, lock the dial calipers so they could not move, and then proceed to the adjacent hole pair.

I absolutely question the precision of my measurements, but I do not question the fact that I could visibly see the difference when I placed the locked dial calipers in an adjacent hole pair (0.006 to 0.008 inch is visible). When I moved on to the next hole pair, the calipers fell into position. I understood that a pattern existed as I moved down the rule - adjacent hole pairs were different, but the hole pair next to the adjacent hole pair was nearly identical.

I understand the difficulty in making accurate and precise tools, the accumulated errors are always a problem. What tolerance is the hole pattern of this tool designed and tested to?

Measurements aside - I really like the Parf Guide System, but I started questioning my experience when I read the the initial post.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on January 13, 2019, 02:24 PM
When Axminster agreed to take on the various new "Parf" products I insisted that they had the measuring equipment necessary to do their QA. In order to measure the size and spacing of the holes on the rulers they have purchased a machine for that task alone. It cost over £25,000 and there are about another £10,000 of precision reference blocks, probes and so on to make the whole thing work. Also, it is used in a temperature controlled area and items introduced to that area have to be given time to adjust to that temperature.

In addition to having the equipment, they should also have agreed to use the equipment; loop-holes are everywhere. My dial calipers were significantly less than £25,000. Purchased back in 1985, I think I paid $170 and they weren't even digital.

Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Morse on January 13, 2019, 03:55 PM
I own both the MK1 and MK2 versions of the Parf Guide System. I'm just wondering if what I have observed is acceptable. 

First I place a MK1 and MK2 stick, back to back ( one on top the other) and insert one of the new MK 2 pins through both sticks from the MK 2 side.  I insert the MK 2 pin until the MK 2 pin shoulder passes thru the MK 2 stick and rests on the back of the MK 1 stick.

[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]

The second image shows that when I go to the opposite end of the overlaid sticks, I am not able to fully insert a MK 2 pin through both sticks to the point the MK 2 pin shoulder passes thru through the MK 2 stick and touches the underlying MK 1 stick. 

If the MK 1 and MK 2 holes spacing were the same I would expect to be able to line up the pin on both ends at the same time.

I'm hoping what I've described is nothing to worry about.  I have communicated this with Axminster and their solution is for me to return the MK 2 System (using their pre paid label).

I'd really like to keep the MK 2 System. Maybe what I've described is not important  Or maybe I just need new MK 2 sticks which I'm not sure they offer.

Any feedback would be appreciated. I order frequently from Axminster and their shipping times and prices are not out of line. For me usually quicker than an East Coast US order.  I am in California
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Morse on January 13, 2019, 04:02 PM
I see I attached same image twice I will try again with first image
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on January 13, 2019, 11:32 PM
Anyone with rulers which are faulty should contact Axminster Customer Services. But do make a top with the system and check that it works as a very minor variation between a pair of rulers may not be an issue.

Always contact Axminster Customer Services first if you have any problems. They manufacture and distribute the kit and I am unable to help other than provide the guidance that I have given above.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on January 14, 2019, 06:16 AM
Great news . . . Axminster has responded as shown below.

"A new set of rules have been checked with the correct hole spacings and we have arranged to dispatch them later today.

We would like to pass our thanks to you with regard to the feedback and we have changed our manufacturing procedure to accommodate the change.

Regards

Kevin King
Specialist Sales Advisor"

As I mentioned earlier, I really do like the Parf Guide System. I would encourage anyone interested in making their own MFT/3 to use Peter Parfitt's PGS and his technique. The man is a wizard and makes wonderful video for YouTube - great teacher.

I also appreciate the open forum available on the FOG for discussing issues that people have with their woodworking related tools.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on January 14, 2019, 10:50 AM
Excellent and many thanks for the kind words.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Bernmc on January 14, 2019, 10:44 PM
Had a similar mail from Axminster today- They’re putting a new set of rulers in an order I have waiting for dispatch.

Very happy with their service - things go wrong occasionally, and it’s the way a company deals with an error that really sets the good ones apart.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Sean KS on January 15, 2019, 12:39 AM
I’m very happy to see a great resolution on this. Peter, you have an amazing mind. Thank you for your work and the grace with which you handle yourself.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: casper on January 15, 2019, 08:13 AM
I have just been told by email that the Mk2 system will be available for retail sale until next spring which seems rather vague.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on January 15, 2019, 08:37 AM
I have just been told by email that the Mk2 system will be available for retail sale until next spring which seems rather vague.

I suspect that bulk export to dealers will only come when Axminster can gear up to the high demand. They have sold out 2 or 3 times since the launch and despite this the demand for the original system remains high.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on January 24, 2019, 10:41 PM
Just to follow up on the second set of Mk II Parf Sticks that were sent out by Axminster . . .

I received the second pair of Parf Sticks this morning and carefully measured them in the same manner that was used to measure the initial pair.  One of the two Parf Sticks was excellent, with only 0.001 to 0.002 inch variation between the hole spacings - this error is most likely attributable to the measurement method, given that I was using a dial caliper. The second Parf Stick exhibited the same alternating error as the initial pair - alternating between positive and negative 0.003 to 0.004 inch.

3.543   +0.0003         3.540   +0.0033
3.542   +0.0013         3.547    -0.0037
3.543   +0.0003         3.539   +0.0043
3.541   +0.0023         3.546    -0.0027
3.544    -0.0007         3.539   +0.0043   
3.543   +0.0003         3.546    -0.0027
3.543   +0.0003         3.539   +0.0043
3.542   +0.0013         3.545    -0.0017
3.543   +0.0003         3.539   +0.0043   
3.542   +0.0013         3.545    -0.0017   

One other detail I noticed was that of the four Parf Sticks I now have, three of them have what I would call an embossed UJK logo. These are also the Parf Sticks which have the alternating error pattern. The one Parf Stick that appears to have the much improved precision has a silk screened UJK logo.

Paul
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on January 25, 2019, 01:01 AM
Hi Paul

You need to report this to Axminster. I cannot help you and they are not here on the FOG.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on January 25, 2019, 07:54 AM
You need to report this to Axminster. I cannot help you and they are not here on the FOG.

Peter, the post was not directed at you. I am posting this information based on what was observed by the OP. In the open forum of the FOG, there are numerous discussions about tools. This is just another open discussion about this specific tool.

If one were to look at the Axminster website and see the description of this tool, one could read:
Some users may have a different experience, and question their technique. Others may question the tool . . .

I have already contacted Axminster - thank you.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on January 25, 2019, 08:10 AM
@box185

I understand.

I have asked Axminster to sort this out.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: wch on February 06, 2019, 12:46 AM
Axminster sent me another set of replacement Parf sticks (my third pair now), which they said were checked for accuracy. Like box185's replacements, there was one "old-style" and one "new-style" ruler in the package. The old-style ruler has the logo embossed (imprinted) in the surface, while the new-style ruler has the logo raised on the surface.

New (raised logo) above, old (embossed logo) below:
[attach=1]

These are the spacings I measured, in mm:

Old-styleNew-style
89.9290.05
90.0189.99
89.9790.02
90.0289.98
89.9390.03
90.0389.99
89.9490.03
90.0289.97
89.9290.03
90.0689.94

According to my measurements, the new-style ruler has more consistent hole spacing than the old one.

When I stacked the on top of each other and connected them using the fixing pin at hole 0, and found that for some hole position, the longer drill guide would go through both sticks easily, for some, it went through but was a bit tight, and for some, it would not go through both.

[attach=2]

[attach=3]

I decided to calculate the overall positioning of of the holes, assuming that each hole is exactly 6.00mm in diameter, and that my measurements are accurate. (These assumptions may not be exactly true, but later on we'll see that they are still useful.) I then calculated the difference of the hole positions in the old and new ruler.

Old-styleNew-styleCumulative oldCumulative newDifference
89.9290.0595.9296.05-0.13
90.0189.99191.93192.04-0.11
89.9790.02287.9288.06-0.16
90.0289.98383.92384.04-0.12
89.9390.03479.85480.07-0.22
90.0389.99575.88576.06-0.18
89.9490.03671.82672.09-0.27
90.0289.97767.84768.06-0.22
89.9290.03863.76864.09-0.33
90.0689.94959.82960.03-0.21

The smallest difference was .11mm, and the largest was 0.33mm. I found that for the holes that were <.15mm apart, the drill guide went relatively easily through both holes. For the holes that were around .20mm apart, the drill guide would go through both holes, but it required a bit of force. For the two holes that were .27mm and .33mm apart, the drill guide would not go through both holes. (Note that with the fixing pin in place in hole 0 of both rulers, there was a little play, so the rulers could move a tiny bit.) So even if the numbers aren't exactly correct due to measurement error, they do correspond with the behavior of the drill guide.

All this said, I don't think that this necessarily problematic for getting good 90-degree cuts. As I mentioned earlier, I had very good results with the four-cut test on my second work surface, which was made with my previous set of rulers that had more error. To maximize consistency, I think it is probably a good idea to use one ruler to drill all of the holes, and use the other ruler only to form the hypotenuse of the 3-4-5 triangle. When I made my second work surface, I did this without really thinking about it, and looking back on it I think it probably helped with the accuracy of the final result.

Overall, I think the design of the system is brilliant; I just wish I had gotten more accurately-made rulers from the beginning.

A note regarding the accuracy of the digital calipers I have: I agree that in general, one can't expect inexpensive measuring devices to have good accuracy, but I've been pleasantly surprised by these. When measuring in inches, they record a resolution of 0.0005 inches. When measuring in mm, they record a resolution of 0.01mm. I have a pair of 1-2-3 blocks, and when set to inch mode, this caliper says that, for both of them, all three dimensions are within .0005 of the inch of expected. Now, it's possible that the 1-2-3 blocks and the calipers have manufacturing and measurement error that cancel out, but a much simpler theory is that the blocks and calipers are very accurate. Other objects I've measured also result in readings that seem to be very accurate. The reviews I've seen for these cheap digital calipers and similar ones agree that they are surprisingly good.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Bernmc on February 07, 2019, 07:01 PM
I finally got to play with my replacement parf stick yesterday

[attach=1]

It's not that obvious in the photo, but the original stick on the far left is a distinctly different colour to the other three, and it's this stick that is inaccurate. It's more tarnished than the others.
All three other sticks - the two replacements and one of my originals - appear to be accurate. At least all the holes line up, and can be anchored together by the various pins and locking wotsits in the kit.

Milled half of my bench (it does take a long time to do something like a full-size Paulk worktop), and did a few bench dog/track saw square cuts, and they are perfect. Made me pretty happy  [big grin]

[attach=2]
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on February 07, 2019, 09:41 PM
I received a third pair of Parf Sticks today. Both of them have the embossed UJK logo.  I am on travel this week, but I do look forward to checking these new parts out next week.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on February 07, 2019, 09:52 PM
@Bernmc - Looking at your first picture, maybe it's just the camera/angle, but, some of the holes seem to be deformed (not crisp/sharp)?

Where did you get that small dust collection hood?

I was ready to buy one of these for making three 32" x 48" tops but after reading through this thread I'm worried about the quality of the components, time to bore all my holes, and it's not in stock (likely due to the quality issues).
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: jobsworth on February 07, 2019, 10:07 PM
@Peter Parfitt

Anyone with rulers which are faulty should contact Axminster Customer Services. But do make a top with the system and check that it works as a very minor variation between a pair of rulers may not be an issue.

Always contact Axminster Customer Services first if you have any problems. They manufacture and distribute the kit and I am unable to help other than provide the guidance that I have given above.

Peter

Peter,

I think you need a hotdog with lots of mustard
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on February 07, 2019, 11:11 PM
@Bernmc - Looking at your first picture, maybe it's just the camera/angle, but, some of the holes seem to be deformed (not crisp/sharp)?

I noticed the deformed holes on some of the first Parf Sticks that I received. When I checked them with gauge pins, they were good except for the hole to hole spacing. The holes in the  silk screened parts that I have do not look deformed.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Bernmc on February 08, 2019, 12:11 AM
@Bernmc - Looking at your first picture, maybe it's just the camera/angle, but, some of the holes seem to be deformed (not crisp/sharp)?

Where did you get that small dust collection hood?

I was ready to buy one of these for making three 32" x 48" tops but after reading through this thread I'm worried about the quality of the components, time to bore all my holes, and it's not in stock (likely due to the quality issues).

Mike, it's the camera angle. They are all sharper than a sharp thing on a sharp day.

I 3D-printed the dust collection hood - it works really well (PETG on a Prusa i3 Mk3): https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2952709 - 'dust' collection is essential for this process as the special forstner bit peels the MDF apart in a paper-like ribbon which quickly clogs the jig if not removed.

I believe the quality issues have been resolved and you can buy with confidence - the new parf sticks have addressed the issue I originally had. The rest of the system is fantastically well-machined. In fact, tolerances are so tight that I occasionally need to go back and introduce a bit of wobbly in the guide holes because the pins are so tight. Similarly , the dogs are a very secure fit in the finished product. And when I did have the issue originally, Axminster sorted it out without fuss.

It definitely takes time, but I think that aside from a CNC'd top, it's the most accurate way to mill something like this. I did have a pop at using a 20mm router bit, and while you might get everything square with a considerable amount of care, the holes are just too sloppy for standard bench dogs.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mario Turcot on February 08, 2019, 09:32 AM
@Mike Goetzke

I got mine from YellowBoxshed (https://www.yellowboxshed.com.au/product/vacuum-hood-for-ujk-technology-parf-guide-system/), price is low and shipping was good. But the best is it fit like a glove on the Parf guide. i'll post a photo of mine later tonight. I also ordered a few goodies to work with MFT tops and I'm very impressed by the quality.

[attachimg=1]

Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: jasen on February 08, 2019, 06:47 PM
If you have a 3D Printer https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2952709

Works well
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on February 08, 2019, 08:30 PM
@Mario Turcot @ Mike Goetzke @jasen and All:
Not to discourage the Makers and their 3D Printers, but the rest of us may want to consider what $34.95 from  TSO’s Minnesota warehouse buys you.

Peter Parfitt explains it best:
                   https://tsoproducts.com/tools-equipment/ujk-technology-parf-dust-port/
   
This seriously tooled, injection molded, snaps-on and stays-put Parf Dust Port from Axminster is part of the largest selection of AXMINSTER and UJK Brand products stocked in the US at TSOproducts.com
Hans and Eric
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: jasen on February 08, 2019, 08:47 PM
Another good option from TSO for the U.S.

Its all about options. Down under with US dollar and postage costs someone like Yellowbox shed is great for Aussies/Kiwis and another great option if you 3D Print.

OT. I want to buy $35 worth of Robertson bits (square) from Canada at a postage cost of $120CA!!
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mario Turcot on February 08, 2019, 08:54 PM
@Mario Turcot @ Mike Goetzke @jasen and All:
Not to discourage the Makers and their 3D Printers, but the rest of us may want to consider what $34.95 from  TSO’s Minnesota warehouse buys you.

Peter Parfitt explains it best:
                   https://tsoproducts.com/tools-equipment/ujk-technology-parf-dust-port/
   
This seriously tooled, injection molded, snaps-on and stays-put Parf Dust Port from Axminster is part of the largest selection of AXMINSTER and UJK Brand products stocked in the US at TSOproducts.com
Hans and Eric

Unfortunately the Axminster dust hood was not available at the time I ordered the Parf Guide from TSO Products.  [crying]
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mario Turcot on February 08, 2019, 09:04 PM
Another good option from TSO for the U.S.

Its all about options. Down under with US dollar and postage costs someone like Yellowbox shed is great for Aussies/Kiwis and another great option if you 3D Print.

OT. I want to buy $35 worth of Robertson bits (square) from Canada at a postage cost of $120CA!!

I hear you about postage fees. The order I did with Yellowboxshed came at a total of 96$ and the postage was 14.50$ I call this extremely fair. Personally I tried several times to order from Woodpecker Tools. Just last week they had a router bit I just received from Toolstoday, Toolstoday charged me 26$ for shipping, there was 2 bits. Woodpecker was charging me 37$ for a single bit and the bit was 35$  [eek]


Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ChuckM on February 08, 2019, 09:15 PM
Cross shipping costs have prevented me from buying more tools or things from the US. Recently, I bought some magazines on eBay and had them shipped to a US address free; to a Canadian location? The shipping cost would be five times the total cost of the magazines!

Another reason why I shop mostly at Lee Valley for woodworking tools, and any vendor whose products are not carried by Lee Valley, or any local tool vendors in Canada seldom gets my business.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on February 08, 2019, 09:17 PM
Another good option from TSO for the U.S.

Its all about options. Down under with US dollar and postage costs someone like Yellowbox shed is great for Aussies/Kiwis and another great option if you 3D Print.

OT. I want to buy $35 worth of Robertson bits (square) from Canada at a postage cost of $120CA!!

Non-US woodworkers:
TSO hears you. Until we developed capable Dealers in key geographic areas we subsidized international shipping so we know from our own pocketbook how expensive that is [sad].

Since then we have established  capable stocking dealers in Australia and New Zealand CARBATEC, in Europe AXMINSTER and GereedschapPro plus South Africa's BPM TOOLCRAFT and HARDWARE CENTRE with ULTIMATE TOOLS in Canada our very first International Dealer.

We thank them all for offering our customers a choice.

Hans and Eric
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on February 09, 2019, 04:37 AM
After reading this thread I checked my Parf sticks and they seem spot on, mine is a Mk 2 system. Whenever I make a top of any type with the system, I always check for square cutting etc, and from the many I’ve made so far, all seems fine and on par with my MFT/3.
Hopefully any faulty versions of the systems are few and far between.

I also just want to reassure anybody thinking of buying these systems, or anything else from Axminster Tools. Apart from a possible inconvenience if something is damaged, not up to standard, or any other cause for disappointment, rest assured Axminster will sort it out and make sure you are happy.
Without going into detail, I use many suppliers and buy tools from many companies, and without doubt, Axminster have the best customer service, that I have personally ever experienced. That alone means a lot too me.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on February 09, 2019, 07:17 AM
After reading this thread I checked my Parf sticks and they seem spot on, mine is a Mk 2 system. Whenever I make a top of any type with the system, I always check for square cutting etc, and from the many I’ve made so far, all seems fine and on par with my MFT/3.
Hopefully any faulty versions of the systems are few and far between.

I also just want to reassure anybody thinking of buying these systems, or anything else from Axminster Tools. Apart from a possible inconvenience if something is damaged, not up to standard, or any other cause for disappointment, rest assured Axminster will sort it out and make sure you are happy.
Without going into detail, I use many suppliers and buy tools from many companies, and without doubt, Axminster have the best customer service, that I have personally ever experienced. That alone means a lot too me.

I absolutely agree and it was one of the major factors that convinced me that they should take on my Parf (R) products.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Euclid on February 09, 2019, 08:36 AM
Whilst we are on the subject of Axminster (rather than specifically the ‘PGS’)...

Although I’d bought from Axminster by mail order (online) a number of times in the past (with considerable satisfaction - well, total satisfaction to be honest), I’d never visited one of their stores.
Having now done that (my “local” one, in Kent - not the easiest of journeys) I’ve been back several times because it is just a nice place to go... calm and spacious, loads of kit to look at and accessories to browse, and good relaxed atmosphere. The staff seem to be endlessly patient and helpful, knowledgeable and enthusiastic, with no pressure to buy and leave you alone until you want help. Odd items that have been out-of-stock, they have sent on to me free of delivery charges.

My only real “complaint” is that on each visit I’ve bought (and spent) much more than I intended when I left home...!

Sorry if all of that sounds like a “shill” or covert marketing for them, but it isn’t... I just feel they deserve a  public “thumbs up”. Yes, some of the stuff (eg. Some Festool items, but not all) can be found a little bit cheaper elsewhere, but overall ther prices seem very fair and sometimes very good; I’m happy to support, when I can, a business that provides both good service online and an extremely good “bricks-and-mortar” presence.

I’ve been buying quite a bit of “UJK” stuff lately and am very pleased with the quality and the finish; though I don’t (yet) have a Parf Guide System...
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Bill Fleming on February 09, 2019, 11:51 AM
I am in need of a new top for my MFT/1080 and the cost of a new top is about equal to the MK2 and of course with the MK2 I can do many things.

So is all this issue of MK2 quality sorted such that getting a properly machined and packaged version more likely than not?

Thx Bill
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on February 09, 2019, 12:11 PM
I am in need of a new top for my MFT/1080 and the cost of a new top is about equal to the MK2 and of course with the MK2 I can do many things.

So is all this issue of MK2 quality sorted such that getting a properly machined and packaged version more likely than not?

Thx Bill
@Bill Fleming - based on the answer I received earlier this week from a senior technical manager at AXMINSTER the answer is an unqualified YES.

TSO's stock replenishment order from AXMINSTER with PGS Mark 2 was ready to ship to us by airfreight. Sign up here to be notified when PGS Mark 2 is back in stock here in the US:

            https://tsoproducts.com/workholding-accessories/ujk-technology-parf-guide-system/


Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Bill Fleming on February 09, 2019, 01:24 PM
Great news, signed up to be notified on your site!

Thx Bill
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on February 10, 2019, 01:47 PM
I checked the third pair of Parf Sticks that I received from Axminster - greatly improved, but still the patterned error.

About 0.003 inch difference between adjacent hole pair. Good enough already . . . move along.

Axminster has done a great job following up on this issue. Still curious how a patterned error appears, but it doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on February 11, 2019, 09:54 AM
Talked to Axminster this morning and they say don’t expect availability until mid-March! I need to look for CNC supplier for my three new tops.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on February 11, 2019, 11:13 AM
Talked to Axminster this morning and they say don’t expect availability until mid-March! I need to look for CNC supplier for my three new tops.

Mike, - we just received confirmation that our AXMINSTER shipment has shipped airfreight to TSO's Minnesota warehouse. Should be available to ship out to our customers some time next week. automatic notifications will go out to all who have signed up on our website:

         https://tsoproducts.com/workholding-accessories/ujk-technology-parf-guide-system/

Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly on February 25, 2019, 04:35 PM
Looks like the Mark II is back in stock at TSO - but alas not shipping to Australia ;-(

Still showing as backorder at Axminster ...

Anyone know of another way to get one in Oz?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on February 25, 2019, 04:43 PM
Looks like the Mark II is back in stock at TSO - but alas not shipping to Australia ;-(

Still showing as backorder at Axminster ...

Anyone know of another way to get one in Oz?

I spoke to them a couple of days ago to check what is happening. When the Mark 2 PGS was launched they had estimated the demand for the first quarter. That initial stock sold out in a matter of days. They were then going flat out to try to keep up but it was an impossible task. Things were not helped by a hiccup in the raw material supply chain and with so many back orders they had to stop taking new orders. I understand that they are working some extra shifts and new stock will be available very soon. I know that they are a commercial organisation but I feel sorry for them as everything was going so well and they were overwhelmed by demand. It sounds like a nice state to be in but I can assure you that it is not quite what they were expecting. They have tried to balance the flow of stock to dealers outside the UK and to direct customers. Things should be back to normal within 7 days.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly on February 25, 2019, 08:41 PM
Great thanks for the update Peter, much appreciated  [thumbs up]
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on February 25, 2019, 08:45 PM
Really interested in this product. With the quality spill on the Parf II are the ones at TSO fully corrected? Just wondering why TSO would have them before Axminster.

Mike
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on February 25, 2019, 10:19 PM
Really interested in this product. With the quality spill on the Parf II are the ones at TSO fully corrected? Just wondering why TSO would have them before Axminster.

Mike
TSO has the widest selection of AXMINSTER  UJK brand products in North America. No wonder that they see to it our customer base is supported.
If you didn't get in on our latest shipments today with your order, you may want to sign up to be notified and act promptly when you see availability.

One difference with the Parf Guide sold by TSO: we add a Stainless 10mm Clamping Collar for customer use in lieu of the standard Aluminum stop collar. This $ 10.00 item is quickly appreciated once you start to use the PGS.

Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly on February 26, 2019, 03:45 AM
Really interested in this product. With the quality spill on the Parf II are the ones at TSO fully corrected? Just wondering why TSO would have them before Axminster.

Mike

Very pertinent question Mike, especially in the context of Peter's notes above - I hope burning the candle at both ends to meet demand isn't resulting in repeat manufacturing / quality control concerns ... hopefully Peter and/or Hans can put our minds to rest.

Solly
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on February 26, 2019, 08:59 AM
to all: the concern with the Parf Stick irregularities were traced to a supplier. Axminster told us they have brought this operation in house to have control over the operations. That is the reason they are behind on deliveries - replacing non-conforming product in the field plus starting up and ramping production of the involved parts in house./

In the end you can rest assured that this issue has top managements attention. Probably never going to be an issue again.

The result is worth the wait.

Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: jayshahu on March 11, 2019, 07:51 PM
I have been lurking on this forum for a bit now. I am interested in the PARF Guide mark II system.

I had a question about compatible bench dogs.

I am aware that lee valley has a couple of bench dogs which have a lip and no chamfer. The UJK has a guide pup and a guide dog with a chamfer.

If I go make a table top with 20 mm holes which dont have a chamfer would I still be able to the UJK guide pup and guide dogs? Will my track saw register properly or am I better off using the less valley dogs.?



Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on March 11, 2019, 08:21 PM
@jayshahu – you need not let the Chamfer issue concern you. Here’s why:
If your Dogs don’t have a Chamfer – nothing to worry about.
If your UJK Dogs have a Chamfer: nothing to worry about either because you can buy AXMINSTER / UJK’s Chamfer Tool – modest cost and very effective and easy to use.
Whether your benchtop has chamfered 20mm holes or non-chamfered has no other effect. Think of the Chamfer as an option which does not preclude using any style of Dog
ULTIMATE Tool in Burnaby BC carry our line of Dogs in two tolerance versions: Standard and CF-Dogs = Close Fit Dogs which are the identical diameter and tolerance as the UJK Parf Dogs. You can tell our Dogs apart because they have a set of Double Grooves to make it easier to extract them 😊

Enjoy the Mark 2 – worth the wait
Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: jayshahu on March 11, 2019, 11:03 PM
Thanks. I will check out ultimate tools

@jayshahu – you need not let the Chamfer issue concern you. Here’s why:
If your Dogs don’t have a Chamfer – nothing to worry about.
If your UJK Dogs have a Chamfer: nothing to worry about either because you can buy AXMINSTER / UJK’s Chamfer Tool – modest cost and very effective and easy to use.
Whether your benchtop has chamfered 20mm holes or non-chamfered has no other effect. Think of the Chamfer as an option which does not preclude using any style of Dog
ULTIMATE Tool in Burnaby BC carry our line of Dogs in two tolerance versions: Standard and CF-Dogs = Close Fit Dogs which are the identical diameter and tolerance as the UJK Parf Dogs. You can tell our Dogs apart because they have a set of Double Grooves to make it easier to extract them 😊

Enjoy the Mark 2 – worth the wait
Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Bernmc on March 12, 2019, 03:13 AM
I have the UJK chamfer tool, but with 300 holes in my worktop to do, I found whizzing around with a trim router and a rounding bit much quicker and easier, with a similar result to the chamfer tool.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 12, 2019, 09:33 AM
I chamfer all the dog holes in all my tops, as I like the chamfered dogs but, also it seems to keep edge damage to the holes at a minimum.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on March 12, 2019, 10:50 AM
I have the UJK chamfer tool, but with 300 holes in my worktop to do, I found whizzing around with a trim router and a rounding bit much quicker and easier, with a similar result to the chamfer tool.

Couple weekends ago I did the same thing - rounded over 60 slots and chamfered about 250 holes (top & bottom). Used a dust mask and did this outside even though it was pretty cold out. I used a small cordless handheld router for the chamfers.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 12, 2019, 12:30 PM
I have the UJK chamfer tool, but with 300 holes in my worktop to do, I found whizzing around with a trim router and a rounding bit much quicker and easier, with a similar result to the chamfer tool.

Couple weekends ago I did the same thing - rounded over 60 slots and chamfered about 250 holes (top & bottom). Used a dust mask and did this outside even though it was pretty cold out. I used a small cordless handheld router for the chamfers.

Yes same here, I use a 1/4” palm router and chamfer/bevel cutter.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on March 15, 2019, 09:29 AM
I had my original work table CNC'd because I had a few projects and got tired waiting on the MK2 to be back in stock. This is my first use of an MFT type table and I already have other ideas for special purpose tops requiring dog holes. So when I found the MK2 back in stock I ordered one at Axminister on Monday and received it Thursday (I'm in the Chicago area). I was somewhat skeptical of the cost but once you have one in your hand you will think it's a bargain. The rules are perfect twins. I would recommend this jig to anyone.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Richard/RMW on March 19, 2019, 11:42 AM
FWIW I'd grabbed the Mk2 guide a while back directly from Axminster before TSO had them available. Only got around to looking at the sticks this past weekend and sure enough, they had the misalignment issue that started this thread. Went to Axminster's site yesterday late, entered the info into their issues form, received notice this AM that replacement sticks are shipping.

It also blows me away that anything I've ever ordered from them ships @ a very reasonable cost and arrives in 4-5 days to the US east coast.

@AxminsterTools - Kudos for fabulous customer service.

RMW
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on March 19, 2019, 12:15 PM
FWIW I'd grabbed the Mk2 guide a while back directly from Axminster before TSO had them available. Only got around to looking at the sticks this past weekend and sure enough, they had the misalignment issue that started this thread. Went to Axminster's site yesterday late, entered the info into their issues form, received notice this AM that replacement sticks are shipping.

It also blows me away that anything I've ever ordered from them ships @ a very reasonable cost and arrives in 4-5 days to the US east coast.

@AxminsterTools - Kudos for fabulous customer service.

RMW

Hi Richard,

I am not sure if Axminster monitor the FOG so I will pass this on to them.

I am sorry that your original Parf Sticks were faulty - a problem that they have narrowed down to one batch of I think 20, probably when someone was finishing up for the weekend !

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Richard/RMW on March 19, 2019, 12:38 PM
FWIW I'd grabbed the Mk2 guide a while back directly from Axminster before TSO had them available. Only got around to looking at the sticks this past weekend and sure enough, they had the misalignment issue that started this thread. Went to Axminster's site yesterday late, entered the info into their issues form, received notice this AM that replacement sticks are shipping.

It also blows me away that anything I've ever ordered from them ships @ a very reasonable cost and arrives in 4-5 days to the US east coast.

@AxminsterTools - Kudos for fabulous customer service.

RMW

Hi Richard,

I am not sure if Axminster monitor the FOG so I will pass this on to them.

I am sorry that your original Parf Sticks were faulty - a problem that they have narrowed down to one batch of I think 20, probably when someone was finishing up for the weekend !

Peter

Thanks Peter, appreciate you passing it along. I'm just glad that @wch noticed the problem originally and posted it here. I don't know what the end result would have been (i.e. how much deviation would have actually been introduced) but more accuracy is always better.

As a side note, it's been interesting to watch as companies like Axminster, Woodpeckers & TSO have gone thru the growing pains ramping up production of precision tools. During my limited foray into it with the Rip Dogs I ran into a couple of issues that required rework, it can be very time consuming especially for a dabbler like myself.  All 3 of the companies mentioned above are to me the gold-standard for how to deal with those challenges.

Cheers!

RMW
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on March 19, 2019, 05:19 PM
Another somewhat disappointed customer.

When I received my MK2 everything looked good after a quick visual inspection. I had time to check the rules a little closer and think I too have an issue  [mad] even though I waited for rule issues to be flushed out.

Got somewhat specious when I took the plastic sleeves off the rules. Rules had many fingerprints and grease/goop marks on them. The UJK markings don't look the same so I'm wondering if I have a mix new/old rules (photos below).

My 96mm spaced holes if pinned at the zero hole will accept the long shoulder drill guide easily on most and with a twist of the guide on the others. The 32mm holes are similar to the 96mm. My issue is with the 48mm spaced holes. I couldn't even get the pin on the drill guide to go in. Upon further inspection the 48mm spacing holes in one of my rules are undersized!

Rule on bottom is the one with the issue - does it look like old stock? (look at last image - looks like I received two old stock)

Have emailed Axminister.

What bothers me is if they did indeed invest in expensive measuring devices why do they fail somewhat simple functional test performer by customers.

Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly on March 19, 2019, 05:35 PM
Definitely looks like you have two "old" ones there Mike going by wch's post above in this thread.

I was just about to order as the Mark II's have just come back into stock today, but if you just received those, then I will be asking for them to be checked before they go out!
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on March 20, 2019, 01:48 PM
Reading through this thread from top to bottom, there appears to be some conflicting information on what created the problem and how many pieces may have the problem.

I have one stick that’s as good as I can measure. The other five pieces each have the alternating error pattern to different extents. That’s twenty minus five, or fifteen for everyone else.

It does seem odd to me that the expensive tools at Axminster do not detect a problem the can be measured with inexpensive dial calipers. Still more curious is the root cause.

A great tool, but plagued with a problem.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Halle on March 20, 2019, 01:54 PM
Reading through this thread from top to bottom, there appears to be some conflicting information on what created the problem and how many pieces may have the problem.

I have one stick that’s as good as I can measure. The other five pieces each have the alternating error pattern to different extents. That’s twenty minus five, or fifteen for everyone else.

It does seem odd to me that the expensive tools at Axminster do not detect a problem the can be measured with inexpensive dial calipers. Still more curious is the root cause.

A great tool, but plagued with a problem.

If you haven't already, I would suggest that you reach out to Axminster.  They are a class act from what I have read and I can't imagine that they wouldn't want to make things right.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on March 20, 2019, 03:10 PM
TSO's customers have only reported an occasional missing small part with the MARK 2. We solved that by stocking small parts - just in case.
No other Mark 2 problems.
For TSO customers: we have your back and AXMINSTER supports us very well.

Hans and Eric
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on March 21, 2019, 09:33 AM
Another somewhat disappointed customer.

When I received my MK2 everything looked good after a quick visual inspection. I had time to check the rules a little closer and think I too have an issue  [mad] even though I waited for rule issues to be flushed out.

Got somewhat specious when I took the plastic sleeves off the rules. Rules had many fingerprints and grease/goop marks on them. The UJK markings don't look the same so I'm wondering if I have a mix new/old rules (photos below).

My 96mm spaced holes if pinned at the zero hole will accept the long shoulder drill guide easily on most and with a twist of the guide on the others. The 32mm holes are similar to the 96mm. My issue is with the 48mm spaced holes. I couldn't even get the pin on the drill guide to go in. Upon further inspection the 48mm spacing holes in one of my rules are undersized!

Rule on bottom is the one with the issue - does it look like old stock? (look at last image - looks like I received two old stock)

Have emailed Axminister.

What bothers me is if they did indeed invest in expensive measuring devices why do they fail somewhat simple functional test performer by customers.

UPDATE:

I spend a little more time looking at my rules and here is an update to my post above:

1) After thinking about the greasy fingerprints on my rules as received it's probably a good thing - they must be checking them.

2) I agree with Peter Parfitt that it is very difficult to measure the hole sizing or spacing using a device like a digital calipers. A functional test is probably best as described earlier in this post. Lock hole "0" and try to stick the drill guide with the long pin through the two rules on a flat surface.

3) Using a functional test I can get the drill guide to fit in all but one set of holes on my two rules.

4) My bad hole is the last 48mm spacing hole in only one of the rules. Looking with magnifiers I was a little surprised to see that it looks like the holes are punched. Think if I chase this hole with a 6mm drill I will be fine.

Mike
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on March 21, 2019, 10:56 AM
2) I agree with Peter Parfitt that it is very difficult to measure the hole sizing or spacing using a device like a digital calipers. A functional test is probably best as described earlier in this post. Lock hole "0" and try to stick the drill guide with the long pin through the two rules on a flat surface.

Agreed . . . it is very difficult to measure the distance accurately, but it is not difficult to detect that there’s a difference in the distance between adjacent hole pairs - even with a dial caliper.

The problem with using the functional test as described is that the distance between adjacent holes is in error on both sticks, but they will likely line up because the error has a pattern that is consistent across all other sticks.

Suggestion : Put a pin through hole zero on the first stick and hole one on the second stick, then check the other holes. I will do this tonight with my six Parf MK II sticks - one of which seems to be good.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on March 21, 2019, 02:00 PM
@Mike Goetzke - AXMINSTER senior management has been in touch with us about your observations. I know you have spoken with their customer service staff and they are shipping a new pair of Parf Sticks to you - in the best AXMINSTER Customer Service tradition.

We can all appreciate the difficulties during roll-out of a very popular product. Customer demand for product applying pressure - like in your case. And the manufacturer working hard to sort out what needs improving at the same time. Obviously a lot of learning going on in the supply chain.

We stand ready to help anyone with any AXMINSTER customer service issues.

Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on March 21, 2019, 03:05 PM
@Mike Goetzke - AXMINSTER senior management has been in touch with us about your observations. I know you have spoken with their customer service staff and they are shipping a new pair of Parf Sticks to you - in the best AXMINSTER Customer Service tradition.

We can all appreciate the difficulties during roll-out of a very popular product. Customer demand for product applying pressure - like in your case. And the manufacturer working hard to sort out what needs improving at the same time. Obviously a lot of learning going on in the supply chain.

We stand ready to help anyone with any AXMINSTER customer service issues.

Hans

@TSO Products

Hans - I called them early this morning to tell them I was willing to re-drill my undersized hole if it was OK with them but they were busy and I couldn't stay on hold any longer. Then an hour later I get a note that they inspected/sent out another set of rules. So I'm taken care of either way.

Mike
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on March 22, 2019, 10:17 AM
2) I agree with Peter Parfitt that it is very difficult to measure the hole sizing or spacing using a device like a digital calipers. A functional test is probably best as described earlier in this post. Lock hole "0" and try to stick the drill guide with the long pin through the two rules on a flat surface.

Agreed . . . it is very difficult to measure the distance accurately, but it is not difficult to detect that there’s a difference in the distance between adjacent hole pairs - even with a dial caliper.

The problem with using the functional test as described is that the distance between adjacent holes is in error on both sticks, but they will likely line up because the error has a pattern that is consistent across all other sticks.

Suggestion : Put a pin through hole zero on the first stick and hole one on the second stick, then check the other holes. I will do this tonight with my six Parf MK II sticks - one of which seems to be good.

@box185

This was a good suggestion. I tried this last night and was able to get the drill guide through both rules. Besides my one 48mm offset hole being undersize (which I plan to remedy this weekend) my rules seem to be perfect!

Mike
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: gnlman on March 22, 2019, 03:07 PM
Well I rec'd my second Mark 11 system after ruler issues with my first set....checked the rulers and they are better, but still an issue. As I did before, I installed the threaded pin thru hole one on both rulers stacked on each other and used the longer shoulder guide bushing to push thru both rulers. All was good until I reached hole 9..it was OK, but all holes after that were visually off....I could get the guide bushing to go thru the offset holes, but only after some manipulation...seems one of my rulers is not straight at one end..I could see this but put a straight edge on it and it seems starting around hole 9 the one ruler is not straight...I would have been happy to have some fingermarks on the rulers if it meant they were checked before they reshipped my the entire kit again. I've emailed them and I'm sure they will fix the issue. Here is a pic of the rulers in case anyone else needs to check their own. I realise this is not off by much, but can't help but think I will not get accurate results at say a 90 degree part of the triangle.
Greg

(http://)
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on March 22, 2019, 04:57 PM
@gnlman

Sorry to hear your rules still seem to be off. As I mentioned above, looks like the holes are punched in the rule. If they do this operation for all holes at once I don't think the straightness of the rule is important.

When you insert the drill guide with the long pin try holding the rules against the flat surface and give a slight twist to it. See if they seem to line up better this way.

Mike
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: gnlman on March 22, 2019, 05:05 PM
Hi Mike. Yes did that already. Gave the long shoulder drill guide a bit of a spin which helps and makes sense...didn't work from hole 10 forward. I had to press on the side of one of the rulers to get the drill guide in. Once I did that it was apparent visually that the holes below 9 were not lining up anymore. It seems like a small thing, but I don't think it will be as accurate as I'd like to see it...and I thought only wood moved once you cut it...lol
Greg
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Durand on March 23, 2019, 11:09 AM
Hi Mike. Yes did that already. Gave the long shoulder drill guide a bit of a spin which helps and makes sense...didn't work from hole 10 forward. I had to press on the side of one of the rulers to get the drill guide in. Once I did that it was apparent visually that the holes below 9 were not lining up anymore. It seems like a small thing, but I don't think it will be as accurate as I'd like to see it...and I thought only wood moved once you cut it...lol
Greg

Oh man, that sure looks like sloppy manufacturing (outsourced to China?). I would have expected better from this company. I hope you get a replacement  that  is better than that piece.

Cheers,
Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on March 23, 2019, 12:50 PM
I would hope that anyone finding any issues with whatever kit it is would talk to the supplier to get a fix. In Axminster's case their Customer Service is second to none as other posts demonstrate.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on March 23, 2019, 01:40 PM
I have both versions of the PGS. The sticks that came with the original PGS seem to have better hole alignment - as posted earlier. I’ve spent some additional time looking at the MK II sticks and see now that the holes are also not in line. I’ve ordered a second MK II PGS from TSO Products, based on comments posted by Hans.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: m. lindholm on March 26, 2019, 11:32 AM
I'm one of the latest folks to pick up the lovely Parf Guide system Mk II.  I'd been checking the website pretty regularly, and when I saw 3/19 they showed in-stock, quickly put my order in, at 10:40am CDT.  I figured since it was nearly 4pm UK time, particularly considering the statement on the website, it'd get shipped out Wednesday, maybe Thursday, arriving today, or maybe Monday the 25th.

There was some hiccup, my order never showed past Processing stage, and so I called Thursday to check-in.  They quickly looked into it, emailed me the tracking info, and I soon learned it was due for delivery Friday...only 3 days after ordering!

I'd also bought a few of the 1M, parallel jaw Trade Clamps, plus 2 extra Parf rulers.  Everything was well packed, the box had a slight kink in the middle, but that's because the clamps are thicker at the heads, so the middle was unsupported there.  No impact to anything inside that I could see.  About $30 to have a 1M long, 23Kg parcel delivered internationally in 3 days was quite reasonable.

I was able to use the set to drill up a nice grid of holes in a board this weekend, and it worked a treat.  The only quibble I had was the aluminum clamping collar wore through it's anodizing on the outside edge, where it rubbed against the drilling guide.  Still perfectly functional, just a little uglier.  I'll mention that to Axminster directly as well, in case they're not aware.

I don't know if the kit has changed slightly since the Mark II was introduced.  @TSO Products has said they include a stainless steel clamping collar instead of (in addition to?) the set screw collar.  At this time, the provided collar is an aluminum clamping collar.

Also, the Mark I rulers available separately, seem to be Mark II rulers, with the 11 3mm holes drilled.  Peter mentioned they were going to be using the Mark II stock for these, but it seems they're using completed Mark II rulers!   [blink]  No complaints here.   [big grin] Having the full Mark II hole pattern is a nice bonus I wasn't counting on.  I'd planned to do some experiments, to see if 2 "Mark I" rulers can be used, and still get precision intermediate holes (32 and 48mm spacing), using Pythagorean theorem. I did some layouts in software (seen below), but haven't seen how practical they are to achieve in practice, and the minimum board size needed to allow for this.  @Peter Parfitt, I'll be sure to pass along what I find if you want to share with your viewers, or you're certainly welcome to run with the idea yourself.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mario Turcot on March 27, 2019, 11:57 AM
To avoid confusion about the Original sticks and the Mark II sticks, here a picture of the originals label.
[attachimg=1]

On mine the labels are printed at the rounded end in black & graduated on the top instead of bottom. I would guess it's the same for all original sticks.

Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on March 28, 2019, 07:39 AM
FOG friends and TSO customers –
Most of us have learned that the internet gives everyone a microphone but not everyone uses it. So, when we read a comment on a forum it reflects that particular posters interests, views and/or experience. Fortunately for all of us, the FOG is a very well moderated forum. What is not easily determined: how widespread or broadly representative some of the reported experiences are. It is left to us FOG participants to assess without the benefit of seeing the underlying BIG PICTURE. Probably a safe bet that FOG posts are not always a “statistically valid sample”.
Of concern to TSO, we have seen a series of posts regarding non-conforming Parf Sticks for the Mark 2. As it turns out, not one of TSO’s customers have encountered or reported Parf Stick difficulties with one of the many PGS Mark 2 purchased from TSO. But we continue to keep close tabs on the issue.
Speaking with AXMINSTER again just hours ago they confirmed a defect rate below 1 %. Still they have added 100% inspection to identify and resolve any remaining root causes in the process which can be improved.
AXMINSTER shared with us early on that they were bringing the Parf Stick 6mm hole production in house to CNC machine these rather than punching. Fortunately, they have some very capable state of the art CNC machining centers capable of performing this operation. Of course, those already have unrelated production loads of their own. So, production catching up with demand is the remaining challenge.
TSO’s next stock order is being readied for air shipment at AXMINSTER as I write this and will be airborne to the US over the weekend. Allow next week for port-of-entry clearance, delivery and receiving in our Minnesota warehouse. Customers who signed up for preorder or notification will receive appropriate notifications.

Hans and Eric
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on March 28, 2019, 09:41 AM
FOG friends and TSO customers –
Most of us have learned that the internet gives everyone a microphone but not everyone uses it. So, when we read a comment on a forum it reflects that particular posters interests, views and/or experience. Fortunately for all of us, the FOG is a very well moderated forum. What is not easily determined: how widespread or broadly representative some of the reported experiences are. It is left to us FOG participants to assess without the benefit of seeing the underlying BIG PICTURE. Probably a safe bet that FOG posts are not always a “statistically valid sample”.
Of concern to TSO, we have seen a series of posts regarding non-conforming Parf Sticks for the Mark 2. As it turns out, not one of TSO’s customers have encountered or reported Parf Stick difficulties with one of the many PGS Mark 2 purchased from TSO. But we continue to keep close tabs on the issue.
Speaking with AXMINSTER again just hours ago they confirmed a defect rate below 1 %. Still they have added 100% inspection to identify and resolve any remaining root causes in the process which can be improved.
AXMINSTER shared with us early on that they were bringing the Parf Stick 6mm hole production in house to CNC machine these rather than punching. Fortunately, they have some very capable state of the art CNC machining centers capable of performing this operation. Of course, those already have unrelated production loads of their own. So, production catching up with demand is the remaining challenge.
TSO’s next stock order is being readied for air shipment at AXMINSTER as I write this and will be airborne to the US over the weekend. Allow next week for port-of-entry clearance, delivery and receiving in our Minnesota warehouse. Customers who signed up for preorder or notification will receive appropriate notifications.

Hans and Eric

WOW - what was that post? Is it just me or does this post bother others too.

I'm very disappointed if Axminister (they have not directly spoken here) and/or TSO think an issue is being made-up or inflated in this thread.

In my case I was building three tops. Was ready to purchase the Parf Guide System but it was not available. I ended up getting them CNC's locally. I have ideas for auxiliary tables so still wanted the system so I could make my own tops. I found this thread and have heard nothing but good about Axminister even from the posters hear that had issues so I waited until their "quality-spill" was corrected and parts available for sale again. I tried ordering from TSO but the items quickly were out of stock so I received a mail that Axminister had them so I bought it.

Since the shut-down I'm at least the second person I have seen that had defective rule. I posted that I could probably fix it myself but it was unusable for all functions as delivered. Good news - Axminister is shipping a new set of rules.

I know people are more apt to post issues than success (I do) but usually it's to try to see if others have had the same and how to resolve it.

Questions:

1) Bought my set after shipping was stopped. Why did I still get punched hole rules when they knew the supplied parts had defects?

2) I didn't count but in this thread I recall seeing at least 5-10 rules with defects. At 1% failure rate this means they sold 500 to 1000 "good" sets in this time frame? At 1% failure rate how did one user get, again as I recall, two or three defective sets?


(I'm sure these issues will get resolved but be careful not to bite the hand that feeds you.)



Mike
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Drew Sanderson on March 28, 2019, 10:01 AM
Sounded fine to me. I'm not bothered by it. Good to have them stating what they believe was, is, and will be happening. Certainly better than silence.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on March 28, 2019, 10:31 AM
@Mike Goetzke  Emails and posts can only convey so much. In this case not well enough. My sincere apology if you felt our post in any way diminished the validity of your experience report and that we are “biting the hand that feeds you (TSO)”.

Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on March 28, 2019, 11:23 AM
Axminster appears to have been silent on the issue of the Parf Stick problem. Peter has suggested that people should contact Axminster to get the problem resolved. At least TSO has given us some insight to the problem.

The open discussion on the FOG has made people aware of a problem, and based on what TSO has shared - this discussion has moved Axminster to correct their process. That would not have happened if this issue was not discussed in a public forum.

At a 1% defect rate, clearly more than 20 sticks have a problem. Is that defect rate current, or does it include all of the product - both punched and CNC’d sticks?

The earliest pair of sticks I received were clearly punched. The second pair was a mix of punched hole and machined hole sticks. The third package had two machined hole sticks. As Mike has said, it’s difficult to understand why the punched sticks were sent out when they were aware of a problem.

I’ve thrown out the punched hole sticks, ordered a second MK II set from TSO, and additional Parf Sticks from Axminster based on what was posted by m. lindholm. An interesting experience, but not pleasant.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on March 28, 2019, 01:22 PM
@Mike Goetzke  Emails and posts can only convey so much. In this case not well enough. My sincere apology if you felt our post in any way diminished the validity of your experience report and that we are “biting the hand that feeds you (TSO)”.

Hans

@TSO Products

I've had excellent product support from TSO. The Parf hole drilling jig was my first order from Axminister but they seem to be taking care of me too (my new rules are expected today).

Just perked me when I saw 1% failure rate, fixed rules have CNC drilled holes and mine still had punched, and sounded like things weren't as bad as projected here. If I interpreted you wrong my apologies to you too.

I work for a company that makes highly engineered products and the fear when you have an issue like has happened here - the customers start looking closer and become more critical than ever. In the end you need to build confidence back with the customer.

Mike
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Richard/RMW on March 28, 2019, 01:56 PM
FWIW I'd grabbed the Mk2 guide a while back directly from Axminster before TSO had them available. Only got around to looking at the sticks this past weekend and sure enough, they had the misalignment issue that started this thread. Went to Axminster's site yesterday late, entered the info into their issues form, received notice this AM that replacement sticks are shipping.

It also blows me away that anything I've ever ordered from them ships @ a very reasonable cost and arrives in 4-5 days to the US east coast.

@AxminsterTools - Kudos for fabulous customer service.

RMW

Hi Richard,

I am not sure if Axminster monitor the FOG so I will pass this on to them.

I am sorry that your original Parf Sticks were faulty - a problem that they have narrowed down to one batch of I think 20, probably when someone was finishing up for the weekend !

Peter

Thanks Peter, appreciate you passing it along. I'm just glad that @wch noticed the problem originally and posted it here. I don't know what the end result would have been (i.e. how much deviation would have actually been introduced) but more accuracy is always better.

As a side note, it's been interesting to watch as companies like Axminster, Woodpeckers & TSO have gone thru the growing pains ramping up production of precision tools. During my limited foray into it with the Rip Dogs I ran into a couple of issues that required rework, it can be very time consuming especially for a dabbler like myself.  All 3 of the companies mentioned above are to me the gold-standard for how to deal with those challenges.

Cheers!

RMW

FWIW and to close out my "contribution" to this thread I received the replacement sticks yesterday and after a quick test all is hunky dory. I plan to make some precision holes this weekend in any nearby, unprotected, horizontal surfaces I can find... watch out neighbors.

RMW
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly1 on March 28, 2019, 08:52 PM
Where did you get that small dust collection hood?

@Mike Goetzke

I got mine from YellowBoxshed (https://www.yellowboxshed.com.au/product/vacuum-hood-for-ujk-technology-parf-guide-system/), price is low and shipping was good. But the best is it fit like a glove on the Parf guide. i'll post a photo of mine later tonight. I also ordered a few goodies to work with MFT tops and I'm very impressed by the quality.

(Attachment Link)

Its all about options. Down under with US dollar and postage costs someone like Yellowbox shed is great for Aussies/Kiwis and another great option if you 3D Print.

I hear you about postage fees. The order I did with Yellowboxshed came at a total of 96$ and the postage was 14.50$ I call this extremely fair.

Seems like there is another option for you guys in the US - appears the YellowBoxShed (https://www.yellowboxshed.com.au/product-list/) catalogue is also available locally via affiliation with TBDCNC (https://tbdcnc.com/yellowbox)
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly1 on April 01, 2019, 02:49 AM
@Peter Parfitt et al

FWIW, having just taken delivery of my Mark II today from Carbatec in Australia, I just wanted to provide a positive report for others ... (Carbatec, concerned after reading this thread, wrote to Axminster who confirmed that the batch they received, was manufactured post improvements to the manufacturing process).

I have found that both of my Parf sticks appear to be identical, with what appears to be machined rather than punched holes, and with the threaded pin in hole zero I can drop the longer drill guide into any hole with absolute ease, the scales on each rule also align perfectly. Fingerprints along both rules, fractionally raised painted lettering on both.

Bottom line, no issues detected whatsoever, to this point - yet to use to complete a 2400 x 1200 top  [thumbs up]
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on April 01, 2019, 02:59 AM
@Solly1

Many thanks for providing your understanding of the situation.

Good luck with that large top. Remember to start in the centre of the long side and extend equally left and right in order to reduce the chance of an error.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on April 01, 2019, 09:17 PM
I received my replacement stick set today.

First, took almost two week to get them and the box looks like the one posted earlier that looked like a car rolled over it. I noticed they used a different carrier than they did for my original order.

Yes, the sticks are bent. I tried to straighten them as best I can but they are a bit wavy now.

Good news is they are drilled holes and not punched like the originals, buy, seems like the holes are a bit smaller in size.

There is more bad news. Neither the pin nor long drill guide will go through the holes without a lot of force (then it is very difficult to remove). I found I can't even get these to drop through a single rule. The pins and short drill guide do drop in easily.

Don't want to sound like a whiner - just at a loss what to do. Can't understand how a few of us can be so unlucky. To have a nice set of square holes all these parts need to compliment each other with tight tolerances. Do I now have pins and drill guide that are out of tolerance? It seems impossible or very unlikely these parts are being checked 100% (or maybe not accurately). Sorry - just frustrated.

Mike
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on April 02, 2019, 03:18 AM
I received my replacement stick set today.

First, took almost two week to get them and the box looks like the one posted earlier that looked like a car rolled over it. I noticed they used a different carrier than they did for my original order.

Yes, the sticks are bent. I tried to straighten them as best I can but they are a bit wavy now.

Good news is they are drilled holes and not punched like the originals, buy, seems like the holes are a bit smaller in size.

There is more bad news. Neither the pin nor long drill guide will go through the holes without a lot of force (then it is very difficult to remove). I found I can't even get these to drop through a single rule. The pins and short drill guide do drop in easily.

Don't want to sound like a whiner - just at a loss what to do. Can't understand how a few of us can be so unlucky. To have a nice set of square holes all these parts need to compliment each other with tight tolerances. Do I now have pins and drill guide that are out of tolerance? It seems impossible or very unlikely these parts are being checked 100% (or maybe not accurately). Sorry - just frustrated.

Mike

Not sure what to say Mike, that is trully bad luck on a few counts.
The packaging looked similar to international packages I’ve been sent without issues.
The holes being too tight, as you say is a concern simply because you don’t know if the holes are too small, or the pins too big?

I think the best solution now, is to contact Axminster, and suggest a complete exchange for the whole system?
Also possibly put a length of timber into the tube to help protect the rules, in the event they take a hit again. Or a thicker tube?
You must be very frustrated but, rest assured they will sort this out asap.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Richard/RMW on April 02, 2019, 07:24 AM
Totally agree with Jiggy, seems like you've drawn the short straw multiple times. My replacement stick arrived via TNT/FedEx in the same packaging and not damaged.

I mated the 2 sticks up & tested all holes and they were a precise slip fit with a little pop/click. Given you've had the same tight fit on multiple sets of sticks I'd suspect the OD of the pin/guide is the issue.

I have zero doubt that @AxminsterTools will make it right.

RMW
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on April 02, 2019, 08:29 AM
Totally agree with Jiggy, seems like you've drawn the short straw multiple times. My replacement stick arrived via TNT/FedEx in the same packaging and not damaged.

I mated the 2 sticks up & tested all holes and they were a precise slip fit with a little pop/click. Given you've had the same tight fit on multiple sets of sticks I'd suspect the OD of the pin/guide is the issue.

I have zero doubt that @AxminsterTools will make it right.

RMW

This last package came TNT/FedEx but my original Parf Guide System and another order I place cam DHL. The DHL packages were pristine and the items were packaged much better. New order and after sales shipping must be different?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on April 02, 2019, 09:04 AM
New order and after sales shipping must be different?

That’s my experience as well - the two latest new orders were shipped DHL, the two Parf Stick replacement packages I received were shipped TNT/FedEx.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on April 02, 2019, 09:41 AM
New order and after sales shipping must be different?

That’s my experience as well - the two latest new orders were shipped DHL, the two Parf Stick replacement packages I received were shipped TNT/FedEx.

If Axminister is watching here just a packaging suggestion. I don't think tubes ship well even domestically. I recently received a long extrusion that use to to be shipped in a tube but it came in a long square box. I also ordered some side moldings for my car and they were in a tube but it had a stiff cardboard angle taped to the outside. Thinking this is for stiffness and to prevent it from rolling under something like a tire [wink].   
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Richard/RMW on April 02, 2019, 12:04 PM
New order and after sales shipping must be different?

That’s my experience as well - the two latest new orders were shipped DHL, the two Parf Stick replacement packages I received were shipped TNT/FedEx.

Now that you mention it I had the same experience, all stock orders are DHL. Could have something to do with how they ship standard orders from their primary logistics/fulfillment center versus shipping replacements.

FWIW the DHL shipments have gotten to me in 2-3 days (US east coast) which absolutely blows my mind given the very reasonable shipping charges and sometimes awkward (long/skinny) packaging.

RMW
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on April 02, 2019, 12:33 PM
@Mike Goetzke - @box185 – Richard/RMW
Your packaging comments back up our decision to ship the Parf Guide System in rectangular boxes from Day One. We will take this topic up when we next meet with AXMINSTER. Your comments provided additional ammunition to make improvements.
Shipping and packaging are a never ending opportunity for improving customer experience.

Thanks guys for posting
Hans and Eric
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on April 02, 2019, 12:37 PM
@TSO Products

Just to be clear, the original purchased part delivered by DHL was in a rectangular box. The replacement was shipped by TNT in a round tube.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Richard/RMW on April 02, 2019, 01:00 PM
The original orders are basically double packaged, 1st in their retail display tubes and second inside the shipping box.

Even so, I suspect a careless handler somewhere in the shipping chain could still mangle them without too much effort.

RMW
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on April 03, 2019, 02:25 PM
@TSO Products

Axminster shipped this package to me using DHL. It was a new order for three additional Parf Sticks. The package has clearly been stepped on - that may be why it was split open.

The sticks inside were not bent, but the condition of the package may help you insist on changes at Axminster.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO_Products on April 03, 2019, 02:43 PM
@TSO Products

Axminster shipped this package to me using DHL. It was a new order for three additional Parf Sticks. The package has clearly been stepped on - that may be why it was split open.

The sticks inside were not bent, but the condition of the package may help you insist on changes at Axminster.

@box185 - thank you for the picture which I will share with AXMINSTER Tools now and also use it when I discuss packaging among other topics during my upcoming AXMINSTER Tools management level meeting in Axminster, Devon, UK . I have to tell you that as a company, their top management is most receptive to feedback aimed at improving the customer experience. We all agree that prevention is more cost effective than "making good afterwards".

Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly1 on April 03, 2019, 03:35 PM
Your packaging comments back up our decision to ship the Parf Guide System in rectangular boxes from Day One. We will take this topic up when we next meet with AXMINSTER. Your comments provided additional ammunition to make improvements.
Shipping and packaging are a never ending opportunity for improving customer experience.

Thanks guys for posting
Hans and Eric

@TSO Products - seems like the perfect opportunity to discuss instigating, what seems to be on the surface, obvious improvements to the execution ...
a) a quality check at the end of manufacture that emulates the tests we are all doing in this thread to identify discrepancies before they reach customers (e.g.a highly accurate machined rack with 17 x 6mm posts that each ruler is stacked upon, or discarded if not able to be)
b) the same checks retrospectively performed on all in stock units before they go out to customers
c) a packing and shipping protocol that maintains the integrity of the system, rules in particular, in transit

@Mike Goetzke - can't but help feel for your bad luck - one thought, is it possible the bending of your rules has "stretched" them thereby misaligning / distorting the diameter of the holes just enough to cause the issues? Pin diameter tolerances aside of course.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on April 04, 2019, 10:00 AM
The feedback below was sent to Axminster this morning regarding the UJK Technology Parf Ruler 104450

I ordered / received three additional Parf Sticks as a supplement to my MKII Parf Guide system.

On the first stick I looked at, neither MKII drill guilde ( short or long stub ) would go completely through any of the 6mm holes from the top side of the Parf Stick. The short stub drill guide would go INTO all of the holes from the BOTTOM SIDE, but the flat bottom surface of the drill guide would NOT sit flat on the Parf Stick.

On the second stick I looked at, the short stub drill guide would properly seat from the top side of the Parf Stick on the even numbered holes, but not the odd numbered holes.

I did not yet take the time to look at the third Parf Stick, but expectations are low.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on April 04, 2019, 10:01 AM
Since most of the holes were undersized, I was not able to look at hole alignment between different sticks.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on April 04, 2019, 10:28 AM
Since most of the holes were undersized, I was not able to look at hole alignment between different sticks.

@box185

I was holding back to comment until I received my third set of rules, but, looks like you have the same issue I had with the CNC'd rules.

Axminister is trying to take care of me as many have said. Once I found they were sending me out a third set I couldn't stop myself from looking at the second set of rules I received that were bent that I tried to straighten. The appearance of the holes on the CNC'd rules is shinny from afar compared to the punched original rules. I looked at the holes closer with my visor-magnifiers and saw some fine crud in the holes. So I took out my HF needle file with a convex profile and very lightly scrubbed around the holes. I could now get the shoulder bolt and long drill guide to fit in the stacked rules  [big grin]. It doesn't drop right in but it fits like a glove!

This begs the question though why the short drill guide and pins seem looser. At least you would think the drill guides would be similar in size.

Bottom line, barring poor packaging and/or poor handling, If I get a straight set of rules, I may need to deburr the holes, but, should be ready to make my tables.

Mike
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on April 04, 2019, 10:46 AM
The appearance of the holes on the CNC'd rules is shinny from afar compared to the punched original rules. I looked at the holes closer with my visor-magnifiers and saw some fine crud in the holes.

I also saw those crud flakes on the bench when I tried pressing the drill guide into the 6mm holes - a powder substance that may be related to anodizing, but I'm not certain.
So I took out my HF needle file with a convex profile and very lightly scrubbed around the holes. I could now get the shoulder bolt and long drill guide to fit in the stacked rules [big grin]. It doesn't drop right in but it fits like a glove!

I thought about doing this too - thanks for confirming that it works. I guess I should be happy that I received straight sticks.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on April 04, 2019, 08:34 PM
The appearance of the holes on the CNC'd rules is shinny from afar compared to the punched original rules. I looked at the holes closer with my visor-magnifiers and saw some fine crud in the holes.

I also saw those crud flakes on the bench when I tried pressing the drill guide into the 6mm holes - a powder substance that may be related to anodizing, but I'm not certain.
So I took out my HF needle file with a convex profile and very lightly scrubbed around the holes. I could now get the shoulder bolt and long drill guide to fit in the stacked rules [big grin]. It doesn't drop right in but it fits like a glove!

I thought about doing this too - thanks for confirming that it works. I guess I should be happy that I received straight sticks.

@box185

OMG yet another issue  [scared] - after reading your post I tried out my drill guides in the holes again. Like you said they do not sit flat on the rule - they actually rock quite a bit. Again I pulled my magnifying-visors out and there is material that has been rolled proud of the surface of the rule (most likely during the chamfering process). I have a chamfering tool and corrected it on one hole but these rules are thin and don't want to loose the main bored hole. Probably safer to sand them down but then you scratch the printed surface. Better yet Axminister should have used a back-deburring tool.

I think they need to consult with an engineer for a few hours to fix this design up. Just a few relatively simple corrections needed to make their customers happy and their pocketbooks fatter.

Mike 
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on April 04, 2019, 09:24 PM
TSO has received notice that the latest shipment of Parf Guide Systems Mark 1 and Mark 2 from AXMINSTER has cleared customs and we expect to start shipping this coming week to fulfill all open orders  [smile]

Tracking numbers will be generated automatically and emailed to all our customers as the shipping labels are generated.

Thank you all for your patience and support!
Hans and Eric
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: gnlman on April 04, 2019, 09:35 PM
Rec'd my third set of rules and same issue....threaded pin very hard to push in hole one of both rules so I could check for alignment. I did ask before the rules where shipped to me to have someone inspect them. There were finger/smudge marks on the rules unlike my second complete set I was shipped...so I was hopeful. I had to spin the longer shouldered drill guide in most of the holes as they are very tight most have loosened up... still a few stubborn ones... and there are ridges, mostly on the bottom of the rules, but upon checking again some on the top also.Now my longer shouldered drill guide has some ridges on the shoulder from spinning it to get it to set in the holes.. it still fits fairly snug though but can rock a bit in some of the holes....the holes do line up much better visually than my last set of rules, but when putting pin in 32 and 48 holes it does pull the rules out of alignment a bit...not sure if that is a big deal, nor am I sure if the slight ridges on a few of the holes on the top will cause any issues....there are more ridges on the bottom of the rules..thinking I'll take a chance and try another top...hopefully not wasting another 60 bucks turning a sheet of melamine into swiss cheese....If the folks checking the rules were just checking for alignment I can see where they would have thought these were fine...I'm starting to feel like I'm a "problem customer", but I ordered these mid November last year and the issues keeps going on. I know they will look after me, but it's getting hard to be excited about this product as time goes by and my project keeps getting delayed....but it's certainly not the end of the world...I'm just a hobby guy.
I am wondering if there are any other folks that have used this system, and have tighter holes perhaps with ridges on the rules that made a new top with good results..hence my reason for posting this before contacting axeminster again....
Greg
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly1 on April 04, 2019, 09:38 PM
I have found that both of my Parf sticks appear to be identical, with what appears to be machined rather than punched holes, and with the threaded pin in hole zero I can drop the longer drill guide into any hole with absolute ease, the scales on each rule also align perfectly. Fingerprints along both rules, fractionally raised painted lettering on both.

@Mike Goetzke, @box185, @gnlman

So it seems whist my previous observations holds true, I haven't avoided issues that prevent using the system ... I'll try my best to explain. Let me know if you see a better test method.

1) The rudimentary test of threaded pin in one end, double depth drill guide in any of the other holes, only seems to alerts you to any longitudinal discrepancy. With threaded pin in 0, and double depth drill guide in 10, clamped down - awl in 10 then drill guide tested in holes 5-9 reveal some lateral discrepancy on my pair of sticks. With some coaxing I can register the guide, but this results in some lateral deflection of the ruler. Your rules could marry, but this only proves they match, not that they are true.

2) There seems to be maybe 1 to 1.5mm flex possible in the middle of the rules with hole 0 and 10 pinned. Perhaps working inwards from the ends and registering pins (although only 3 provided) either side of the hole to be drilled would minimise the chance that you flex the rule while applying downward but perhaps slightly lateral pressure on the drill guide whilst drilling.

3) With a test set of a single row of 10 holes, and UJK dogs in holes 0 and 10, a third dog in any of the holes 2-9, results in a Veritas straight edge rocking to varying degrees around the middle dog pivot point, worsening at 0 as you move the central dog closer to 10. With a dog in 9 and 10 anchored, and the straight edge pulled tight to these dogs, the discrepancy at hole 0 is approx 2mm (8=1.75mm, 7=1.25mm, 6=1.1mm, 5=0.75mm, 4=0.6mm, 3=0.25mm, 2=0.1mm). At 1 and 10 it's negligible at 0. It therefore appears I have a "bow" in rule #1 from holes 2 to 10.

Same process with ruler #2, the discrepancies are in the same direction, but inaccuracy approx halved. See Point 1.

4) I understand that the edges of the rules are not to be used for any form of reference, but the "bow" explained above is also mirrored with the top or bottom edges of the rule up against the straight edge, and magnified if the rule is flipped over. It can also be exhibited by applying the straight edge to the pins inserted in the rule. Both my pins (within 0.04mm) and rules (within 0.1mm) appear to be relatively consistent widths according to my mediocre calipers for this test to hold some merit - the rule edges may bear no reference to the holes, but I would presume they are intended to be machined somewhat straight and parallel.

5) It's possible these discrepancies could be compounded, depending on which way you position your rules to do rows and columns, and magnified further over longer runs than 1000mm highlights (in my case more than doubled over 2400mm).

About to contact the local supplier in Oz (Carbatec, hopefully as helpful as Axminster) and pick up some more MDF stock to test the triangular impact of the discrepancies noted ...

Cheers
Solly
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: gnlman on April 04, 2019, 09:59 PM
Interesting..sounds like my second set of rules..they deflected as well with threaded pin in hole one and drill guide in hole ten.
I should have added to my last comment, that the rules I just rec'd I checked with veritas straight edge are completely straight...no rocking at all when straight edge held against both sides of both rules.
Greg
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on April 05, 2019, 09:18 AM
"Calling all machinists" - what methods/tools could be used to cleanup the burr on the chamfer that is proud of the ruler surface?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Richard/RMW on April 05, 2019, 10:03 AM
I have found that both of my Parf sticks appear to be identical, with what appears to be machined rather than punched holes, and with the threaded pin in hole zero I can drop the longer drill guide into any hole with absolute ease, the scales on each rule also align perfectly. Fingerprints along both rules, fractionally raised painted lettering on both.

@Mike Goetzke, @box185, @gnlman

So it seems whist my previous observations holds true, I haven't avoided issues that prevent using the system ... I'll try my best to explain. Let me know if you see a better test method.

1) The rudimentary test of threaded pin in one end, double depth drill guide in any of the other holes, only seems to alerts you to any longitudinal discrepancy. With threaded pin in 0, and double depth drill guide in 10, clamped down - awl in 10 then drill guide tested in holes 5-9 reveal some lateral discrepancy on my pair of sticks. With some coaxing I can register the guide, but this results in some lateral deflection of the ruler. Your rules could marry, but this only proves they match, not that they are true.

2) There seems to be maybe 1 to 1.5mm flex possible in the middle of the rules with hole 0 and 10 pinned. Perhaps working inwards from the ends and registering pins (although only 3 provided) either side of the hole to be drilled would minimise the chance that you flex the rule while applying downward but perhaps slightly lateral pressure on the drill guide whilst drilling.

3) With a test set of a single row of 10 holes, and UJK dogs in holes 0 and 10, a third dog in any of the holes 2-9, results in a Veritas straight edge rocking to varying degrees around the middle dog pivot point, worsening at 0 as you move the central dog closer to 10. With a dog in 9 and 10 anchored, and the straight edge pulled tight to these dogs, the discrepancy at hole 0 is approx 2mm (8=1.75mm, 7=1.25mm, 6=1.1mm, 5=0.75mm, 4=0.6mm, 3=0.25mm, 2=0.1mm). At 1 and 10 it's negligible at 0. It therefore appears I have a "bow" in rule #1 from holes 2 to 10.

Same process with ruler #2, the discrepancies are in the same direction, but inaccuracy approx halved. See Point 1.

4) I understand that the edges of the rules are not to be used for any form of reference, but the "bow" explained above is also mirrored with the top or bottom edges of the rule up against the straight edge, and magnified if the rule is flipped over. It can also be exhibited by applying the straight edge to the pins inserted in the rule. Both my pins (within 0.04mm) and rules (within 0.1mm) appear to be relatively consistent widths according to my mediocre calipers for this test to hold some merit - the rule edges may bear no reference to the holes, but I would presume they are intended to be machined somewhat straight and parallel.

5) It's possible these discrepancies could be compounded, depending on which way you position your rules to do rows and columns, and magnified further over longer runs than 1000mm highlights (in my case more than doubled over 2400mm).

About to contact the local supplier in Oz (Carbatec, hopefully as helpful as Axminster) and pick up some more MDF stock to test the triangular impact of the discrepancies noted ...

Cheers
Solly

@Solly1 that's disappointing to hear. The entire concept of the system is based on the geometric perfection of the components, it's starting to sound like Axminster has an issue delivering consistency. I checked my new stick to make sure the holes lined up with each other from end to end but didn't check either centerline hole-to-hole nor that they were in alignment end to end.

I brought my original pair of sticks into my office/workroom in the house to use them as straightedges and when I just checked them that are not both totally straight over their length. I compared them against each other, alternately flipping the over front/back and above/below each other until a pattern established. One appears to be straight and the other bowed about .5mm in the center.

As long as the holes are in line the straightness of the stick itself shouldn't matter, within reason. I guess I'll have to check the new sticks before making a top.

Based on what little I really know about machining I believe it is challenging to get precision in the 1,000's of an " over a meter long stretch. I'd assume the only way to assure that accuracy is to physically inspect each stick prior to shipping. My hunch is there would be a lot of rejected sticks. Caveat being I have zero idea what is an acceptable tolerance nor what Axminster is aiming for.

RMW

Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly1 on April 05, 2019, 06:54 PM
I checked my new stick to make sure the holes lined up with each other from end to end but didn't check either centerline hole-to-hole nor that they were in alignment end to end.

@Richard/RMW wasn't a test that came to my mind initially after reading this thread either, but seems to be the most pertinent.

Another simple way to check the discrepancy is by drilling 0 and 10, inserting pins, then drilling 2 to 9 - per normal usage - then flipping the ruler front to back and reinserting the pins in 0 and 10 from the underside - it's becomes visually apparent without measurement. Ruler #2 can then be pinned and checked against these same holes also - in my case Rule 1 and Rule 2 hole 7 are close to each other but not straight (attached) - hence my initial thought all was well. I'd suggest everyone perform this check and let us know the results ...

With the ruler flipped or with Ruler #2, one can also try inserting pins in holes 2-9 with 0 and 10 pinned. I found that the micro chamfer on the rule holes actually allows some pins to seat with a good push, but with a thumb on the edge of the rule, you can detect the deflection in the rule as it does so.

Will be the first test I perform if I receive new rules (pending Carbatec, who are checking their stock for good candidates and awaiting direction from Axminster).

I really like the simple yet ingenious system Peter has designed, and can see many uses, so will persist until I can get a workable set to make best use of my virgin 2400 x 1200 Paulk style torsion top MFT!

Cheers
Solly
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on April 05, 2019, 08:05 PM
I noticed and posted the alignment problem with these holes when I received my second replacement set - and I thought I was discouraged then.

The set of three replacements that I received recently have all of the problems discussed here, and then Axminster today suggested that the replacement sticks are only for the original PGS - in spite of these sticks having the 6mm holes.

I saw a shipping notice from TSO today - so still hopeful, but looking at other options to make the 3mm pilot holes.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly1 on April 05, 2019, 08:37 PM
I noticed and posted the alignment problem with these holes when I received my second replacement set - and I thought I was discouraged then.

The set of three replacements that I received recently have all of the problems discussed here, and then Axminster today suggested that the replacement sticks are only for the original PGS - in spite of these sticks having the 6mm holes.

I saw a shipping notice from TSO today - so still hopeful, but looking at other options to make the 3mm pilot holes.

I had seen the discussion regarding hole sizes and hole spacing longitudinally, and alignment between rules, but not much on hole pattern straightness if those previous tests passed, so just wanted to add that into the mix of accuracy checks.

Not sure how Axminster could claim PGS Mark I applicability with 6mm holes ???. Good luck with the new set if that is what TSO shipped!

My thoughts also went towards an alternate method - not sure if I have any metal CNC machinists locally, but might talk to them if I find one, as to the possibility / cost of machining up an accurate pair of rules ... at the moment I'm testing if I can get an acceptable run of holes using only 3 or 4 near straight holes from my "better" ruler ...
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on April 05, 2019, 08:49 PM
It’s all good - the discussion and different test ideas. I like the approach you demonstrated because it shows the real result on the bench.

The replacement sticks have both 3mm and 6mm holes, but Axminster made me question the purpose of the 6mm holes.

I have also thought about using the 20mm orange drill guide - I need to look at that again.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on April 05, 2019, 11:52 PM
Friends and customers         
As the “principal stockists” of AXMINSTER’s UJK Technology products in the USA, we have a very personal stake in the continuing refinement and long-term success of the Parf Guide System tool series.

Peter Parfitt’s quest to make possible the construction of highly accurate 20mm worktops on the job site or home workshop is a more technically ambitious undertaking than it first appears. Not surprising, “pushing the close tolerance envelope” like this has not gone without some bumps in the road.

To their credit, but to no one’s surprise, AXMINSTER is stepping up to meet unanticipated production challenges. Some of these challenges are more like peeling the proverbial onion. The new problem does not become apparent until the preceding problem has been addressed.

The first layers of difficulties did not become apparent until a substantial production quantity had reached customers hands. Even then, it has proven quite challenging to make improvements without encountering unintended consequences.

Comments and dialog on the FOG provide helpful information, - including the understandable expressions of disappointment or even frustration. It all adds up to creating a more complete picture of what is going on in the field.  And all of it is followed by TSO and shared with AXMINSTER staff and senior management.

It would be a great help if you, as a customer receiving an unsatisfactory Parf Guide, give TSO the opportunity to evaluate the part right here in the US before any attempt has been made to correct or “fix” the problem. It does not matter from whom you purchased your Parf Guide. To help, we need the “evidence” to root out the underlying cause and we will provide the no-charge replacement from our fresh stock for the few examples which may still turn up.

Hans and Eric

PS: our stock shipment has been received in our warehouse and will be packed for shipment starting Monday April 8, 2019
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Richard/RMW on April 06, 2019, 07:59 AM

It would be a great help if you, as a customer receiving an unsatisfactory Parf Guide, give TSO the opportunity to evaluate the part right here in the US before any attempt has been made to correct or “fix” the problem. It does not matter from whom you purchased your Parf Guide. To help, we need the “evidence” to root out the underlying cause and we will provide the no-charge replacement from our fresh stock for the few examples which may still turn up.


@TSO Products Hans/Eric: I may have missed is earlier in the thread but are you requesting that we send you the questionable sticks for an autopsy?

I have a totally unused/unaltered set from the first run where Axminster already sent me the replacements, but I assume the issues with those are well understood by now. If not I'm happy to send them in.

RMW

Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on April 06, 2019, 08:31 AM
Richard,
thank you for responding to our data collection call. Yes, we would like to collec the data from your earlier parts. I'll give you a call on your mobile later this morning to make arrangements.

Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: jayshahu on April 08, 2019, 10:40 AM
Great idea but the execution of the idea needs to be improved. Too many issues with the rulers IMHO. I have my kit waiting for when I get back home from my current project. Will check in about 2 weeks and report back.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly1 on April 09, 2019, 01:26 AM
Let me add Carbatec in Australia to both Axminster and TSO for excellent service in supporting the success of this product. Their regular communication, without me having to follow up for an update, has been fantastic and they have kindly arranged with Axminster to drop ship a new set of sticks out to me directly.

Fingers crossed ... will report findings once received and checked ;-)

Cheers
Solly
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on April 09, 2019, 09:00 AM
Let me add Carbatec in Australia to both Axminster and TSO for excellent service in supporting the success of this product. Their regular communication, without me having to follow up for an update, has been fantastic and they have kindly arranged with Axminster to drop ship a new set of sticks out to me directly.

Fingers crossed ... will report findings once received and checked ;-)

Cheers
Solly

Can't argue about TSO and Axminister support. TSO by communicating by mouth but Axminister seems to be fine just continuing to send parts. I've tried to call Axminister a couple times but the tech staff was busy and never called back (maybe they are overwhelmed). I think Axminister just needs to take a step back and fix the couple issues and resolve them. From my inspection of parts they are oooooo so close.

I received my third set of rules yesterday from TNT/FedEx. The packaging was better but still a tube. They put the smaller tube into a bigger diameter/stiffer tube. They also sent the short and long drill guides.

This third set has the same issues as my first replacement set. The pins and short stubbed drill guide fit well but the bolt and long stub drill guide do not even fit in any of the holes on either rule.

I didn't touch this rule yet with a file to clean the holes and have attached a couple photos.

Two issues I see: 1) they need to clean the debris in the hole (or is this poor SS machine technique). 2) on the second photo to the left you can see the rolled over material that is preventing the drill guides from sitting flat on the rule.

(Axminister needs this - https://ezburr.com/)

Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Michael Kellough on April 09, 2019, 03:50 PM
There has been a lot of talk about the defective holes. Have you been measuring the diameter of the things that are supposed to fit into the holes?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly1 on April 09, 2019, 05:57 PM
This third set has the same issues as my first replacement set. The pins and short stubbed drill guide fit well but the bolt and long stub drill guide do not even fit in any of the holes on either rule.

@Mike Goetzke - sorry to hear you found issues with the 3rd set. Aside from the rulers, you seem to also have a "new" discrepancy between pin and guide diameters [blink]

I read back thru your experience, but couldn't find any mention, I am curious to learn aside from the issues documented, if any/all of your rulers holes are straight and true (per my previous posts)? The whole objective of the system.

Cheers
Solly
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on April 09, 2019, 06:18 PM
This third set has the same issues as my first replacement set. The pins and short stubbed drill guide fit well but the bolt and long stub drill guide do not even fit in any of the holes on either rule.

@Mike Goetzke - sorry to hear you found issues with the 3rd set. Aside from the rulers, you seem to also have a "new" discrepancy between pin and guide diameters [blink]

I read back thru your experience, but couldn't find any mention, I am curious to learn aside from the issues documented, if any/all of your rulers holes are straight and true (per my previous posts)? The whole objective of the system.

Cheers
Solly

@Solly1  I'm confident with little cleanup I can get the rules to work. On the second set a light file rub inside the holes fixed the diameter fit and I'm thinking of ways to clean the rolled over material on the surface.

Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Michael Kellough on April 09, 2019, 06:21 PM
This third set has the same issues as my first replacement set. The pins and short stubbed drill guide fit well but the bolt and long stub drill guide do not even fit in any of the holes on either rule.

@Mike Goetzke - sorry to hear you found issues with the 3rd set. Aside from the rulers, you seem to also have a "new" discrepancy between pin and guide diameters [blink]

I read back thru your experience, but couldn't find any mention, I am curious to learn aside from the issues documented, if any/all of your rulers holes are straight and true (per my previous posts)? The whole objective of the system.

Cheers
Solly

@Solly1  I'm confident with little cleanup I can get the rules to work. On the second set a light file rub inside the holes fixed the diameter fit and I'm thinking of ways to clean the rolled over material on the surface.

Wouldn’t a ream be better? What size is the hole meant to be?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly1 on April 09, 2019, 06:54 PM
@Solly1  I'm confident with little cleanup I can get the rules to work. On the second set a light file rub inside the holes fixed the diameter fit and I'm thinking of ways to clean the rolled over material on the surface.

@Mike Goetzke Sure, but I'm keen to see once you are able to drill holes and complete a row of 10, when dogs are inserted and a straight edge used to test them, if they end up actually being straight ... I don't have hole tolerance issues, just misaligned holes (and/or bowed rulers).
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on April 14, 2019, 05:24 PM
@Solly1  I'm confident with little cleanup I can get the rules to work. On the second set a light file rub inside the holes fixed the diameter fit and I'm thinking of ways to clean the rolled over material on the surface.

@Mike Goetzke Sure, but I'm keen to see once you are able to drill holes and complete a row of 10, when dogs are inserted and a straight edge used to test them, if they end up actually being straight ... I don't have hole tolerance issues, just misaligned holes (and/or bowed rulers).

@Solly1 & @TSO Products

I had a chance today to drill a line of holes. I found out you need to make sure everything is clean before you drill the holes or even small debris will cause the drill guide to rock.

I used my first replacement set of rules that were bent during shipping ( I straightened them pretty well). I used a convex needle file to clean the inside if the holes (just rubbed it - not hard enough to remove any metal only debris) and a 120 grit sanding wheel on my Dremel to remove the rolled over material on the chamfer.

I think the results were excellent! I put a UJK Long SuperDog in holes 1 & 10. I then used a Standard SuperDog in holes 2 through 8. I used the same LeeValley straight edge like Solly1 did and bridged between holes 1 & 10 and measured the gap between the straight edge and SuperDog. Here are the measurements: 0.000, 0.001, 0.001, 0.002, 0.001, 0.001, 0.000, 0.000. I moved the straight edge to the opposite side and now had gap at end dog - so the straight edge must be true.

Mike
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly1 on April 14, 2019, 05:58 PM
Reassuring results @Mike Goetzke - if the 2nd (or other) ruler yields similar results, then when used in conjunction to determine the perpendicular column, I think you would end up with a very accurate grid of holes indeed! Even if another rulers holes were not as straight, but the distance between hole 0 and 10 was the same as ruler #1, then the layout should theoretically be square, and you could use ruler #1 only to drill the holes straight between.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Jruks on April 18, 2019, 03:17 PM
Just a brief comment from me as I just received my Mark II package via TSO. Unfortunately I am away from my shop and won’t be able to truly test these sticks out for another two weeks, but in the meantime I have the following observations:

- I love that TSO took the time to add a note to their packaging highlighting past QC issues with earlier shipments from Axminster asking us to check our guide systems and confirm everything lines up etc - good to know that even people not following along with this thread are given the heads up to check their kits.
- this is my first hands on with the guide system (either mark I or II), and I was surprised and happy to see how beefy and heavy these parts are, both the rulers themselves as well as the drill guides, the pins, etc. impressive for sure.
- my two rules seem to be exact diplicates of each other, with the ujk logos slightly imprinted into the surface of the rulers
- My pins and drill guides fit nicely and snugly into each individual hole
- when I put the screw pin in position 0 and hold the rules in place, I can move the drill guide with the longer shoulder up through all position holes and have it drop into each hole without any perceivable shift in the two ruler positions - this is what I would expect if the two rulers are exact duplicates of each other.
- because I can’t really drill any holes I can’t comment on how co-linear the holes are on either ruler stick
- there is a definite bow to the sticks with the hump in the middle  such that the hump makes an upside down ‘u’ when the ruler is sitting in front of you with the numbers facing right side up. I don’t have feeler gauges with me but it’s perceptible if you butt the edges up to each other. With both rulers having numbers facing right side up there is no gap if butted one next to the other, meaning the bow/hump is the same direction on both sticks (again what I would expect if they were exactly alike). If you flip one so the numbers are upside down and the grid lines of each are butted up to each other, you see the gap in the middle.
- please note that the above line item is just an observation of the rulers themselves and I don’t have the ability right this minute to test the important part which is the colinearity (and spacing) of the holes themselves on each ruler.

I’m going to dig around to see if I have a drill and scrap anywhere so I can test out the linearity of the lines before I get back to my shop in two weeks...

Just wanted to highlight for now that at least it seems new orders (at least from TSO) are being shipped with identical rulers at this point in case anyone was worried.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on April 18, 2019, 04:52 PM
Just a brief comment from me as I just received my Mark II package via TSO. Unfortunately I am away from my shop and won’t be able to truly test these sticks out for another two weeks, but in the meantime I have the following observations:

- I love that TSO took the time to add a note to their packaging highlighting past QC issues with earlier shipments from Axminster asking us to check our guide systems and confirm everything lines up etc - good to know that even people not following along with this thread are given the heads up to check their kits.
- this is my first hands on with the guide system (either mark I or II), and I was surprised and happy to see how beefy and heavy these parts are, both the rulers themselves as well as the drill guides, the pins, etc. impressive for sure.
- my two rules seem to be exact diplicates of each other, with the ujk logos slightly imprinted into the surface of the rulers
- My pins and drill guides fit nicely and snugly into each individual hole
- when I put the screw pin in position 0 and hold the rules in place, I can move the drill guide with the longer shoulder up through all position holes and have it drop into each hole without any perceivable shift in the two ruler positions - this is what I would expect if the two rulers are exact duplicates of each other.
- because I can’t really drill any holes I can’t comment on how co-linear the holes are on either ruler stick
- there is a definite bow to the sticks with the hump in the middle  such that the hump makes an upside down ‘u’ when the ruler is sitting in front of you with the numbers facing right side up. I don’t have feeler gauges with me but it’s perceptible if you butt the edges up to each other. With both rulers having numbers facing right side up there is no gap if butted one next to the other, meaning the bow/hump is the same direction on both sticks (again what I would expect if they were exactly alike). If you flip one so the numbers are upside down and the grid lines of each are butted up to each other, you see the gap in the middle.
- please note that the above line item is just an observation of the rulers themselves and I don’t have the ability right this minute to test the important part which is the colinearity (and spacing) of the holes themselves on each ruler.

I’m going to dig around to see if I have a drill and scrap anywhere so I can test out the linearity of the lines before I get back to my shop in two weeks...

Just wanted to highlight for now that at least it seems new orders (at least from TSO) are being shipped with identical rulers at this point in case anyone was worried.

This is strange - following this thread seems TSO supplied systems haven't had issues but from Axminister directly they have. Is there extra effort or additional QC steps taken to assure TSO gets good product?

Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Jruks on April 19, 2019, 03:03 PM
@Solly1  I'm confident with little cleanup I can get the rules to work. On the second set a light file rub inside the holes fixed the diameter fit and I'm thinking of ways to clean the rolled over material on the surface.

@Mike Goetzke Sure, but I'm keen to see once you are able to drill holes and complete a row of 10, when dogs are inserted and a straight edge used to test them, if they end up actually being straight ... I don't have hole tolerance issues, just misaligned holes (and/or bowed rulers).

@Solly1 & @TSO Products

I had a chance today to drill a line of holes. I found out you need to make sure everything is clean before you drill the holes or even small debris will cause the drill guide to rock.

I used my first replacement set of rules that were bent during shipping ( I straightened them pretty well). I used a convex needle file to clean the inside if the holes (just rubbed it - not hard enough to remove any metal only debris) and a 120 grit sanding wheel on my Dremel to remove the rolled over material on the chamfer.

I think the results were excellent! I put a UJK Long SuperDog in holes 1 & 10. I then used a Standard SuperDog in holes 2 through 8. I used the same LeeValley straight edge like Solly1 did and bridged between holes 1 & 10 and measured the gap between the straight edge and SuperDog. Here are the measurements: 0.000, 0.001, 0.001, 0.002, 0.001, 0.001, 0.000, 0.000. I moved the straight edge to the opposite side and now had gap at end dog - so the straight edge must be true.

Mike

Mike - were this set of ruler(s) you tested the linearity of the holes for above dead straight themselves? Or did they have a bow or a hump to them along one or both edges and still produce linear holes?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Jruks on April 19, 2019, 03:05 PM
This is strange - following this thread seems TSO supplied systems haven't had issues but from Axminister directly they have. Is there extra effort or additional QC steps taken to assure TSO gets good product?

I can’t answer this personally. Would seem odd if that was the case though..
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on April 19, 2019, 03:43 PM
This is strange - following this thread seems TSO supplied systems haven't had issues but from Axminister directly they have. Is there extra effort or additional QC steps taken to assure TSO gets good product?

I can’t answer this personally. Would seem odd if that was the case though..

@Jruks – in response to your question about any “extra effort” TSO puts into the AXMINSTER products we ship: normally we do not open the products we receive from AXMINSTER before shipping them to our customers. The exception involves the Parf Guide (original) and Parf Guide Mark 2 where, until recently, we added a Clamping Collar to the shipment.

We have received one (1) report of questionable PGS Mark 2 Parf Stick rule accuracy and we are subjecting that part to lab analysis. In other words, TSO has not seen any Parf Stick difficulties rising to the level of even 1% of Mark 2 shipments.

The intentional very tight fits of the Parf Guide System do result in joining parts requiring some manual pushing to go together the first time or two until the mating surfaces have knocked down any interfering high spots.

We have seen a missing part report here or there but nothing pointing to broader quality issues. After all, a customer problem creates an equal or greater TSO internal workload. So, we are doubly vigilant about all aspects of quality. Reports on the FOG also get our attention and send us checking our own performance.

Hans


Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Jruks on April 19, 2019, 03:46 PM
@TSO Products it wasn’t my question, I was just saying I didn’t know the answer; but I’m glad I ordered through you guys anyway!


This is strange - following this thread seems TSO supplied systems haven't had issues but from Axminister directly they have. Is there extra effort or additional QC steps taken to assure TSO gets good product?

I can’t answer this personally. Would seem odd if that was the case though..

@Jruks – in response to your question about any “extra effort” TSO puts into the AXMINSTER products we ship: normally we do not open the products we receive from AXMINSTER before shipping them to our customers. The exception involves the Parf Guide (original) and Parf Guide Mark 2 where, until recently, we added a Clamping Collar to the shipment.

We have received one (1) report of questionable PGS Mark 2 Parf Stick rule accuracy and we are subjecting that part to lab analysis. In other words, TSO has not seen any Parf Stick difficulties rising to the level of even 1% of Mark 2 shipments.

The intentional very tight fits of the Parf Guide System do result in joining parts requiring some manual pushing to go together the first time or two until the mating surfaces have knocked down any interfering high spots.

We have seen a missing part report here or there but nothing pointing to broader quality issues. After all, a customer problem creates an equal or greater TSO internal workload. So, we are doubly vigilant about all aspects of quality. Reports on the FOG also get our attention and send us checking our own performance.

Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: RedDog on April 20, 2019, 06:42 PM
My Mark 1 system was waiting for me when I got home yesterday. Did some quick checks and it seems fine to me. Sticks are drilled for Mk1 and Mk2. Pins are Mark 2 and fit either. Packaging was great, a tube in a box. Absolutely no issues there. Thanks TSO.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Richard/RMW on April 21, 2019, 04:40 PM
@TSO Products

I just got around to checking the second set of Mk2 sticks, this time using some m6 precision pins I had on hand:

[attachimg=1]

Inserted pins with the bevel up in holes @ positions 0/2/4/32 (center) & 7 using washers underneath the sticks to ensure that the pins were fully seated past the slightly rounded ends:

[attachimg=2]

The final holes @ 10/32/48 did not line up, they were off around .5mm, and you can see the edge of the sticks also didn't line up:

[attachimg=3]

I then went back and attempted to feel whether inserting the pins @ 32 (center) and 7 was causing the sticks to flex slightly, and they were. As far as I can tell the misalignment appears to be in the form of a gradual curve in one/both sticks. I haven't attempted to drill holes and check the alignment but based on what I observe it appears the result would be a line of holes slightly out of true.

As a check I inserted a pin @ 0 and the righthand 48, then attempted to insert one in 6. it would not go in unless I pushed the top stick down slightly (relative to the text) and the misalignment of the 2 holes was smaller than the photo above. This seems to be consistent with the results I got using the other method, i.e. it was about half the amount and in the opposite direction. Here's a sketch attempting to illustrate this:

[attachimg=4]

The sticks themselves are not straight when checked using the woodpeckers 4' straightedge, each has a slight bow in the center of around .5mm also. This bow was reversed between the 2 sticks, one bowing up and one down relative to the printed text.

Edit: The errors I am measuring differ from the first set to the second set. The errors in the first set appear to be the distance between holes, I didn't check whether they were along a straight line. My results seem consistent between the original set of sticks and the set Axminster sent me as replacements. This causes me to question whether I am somehow coming up with skewed results due to operator error?

I'm also not sure if I'm simply overthinking this or not relative to expectations of the precision of the sticks?

Hans, I guess I'll send you both sets to let you try to verify this.

RMW
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: dicktill on April 21, 2019, 04:53 PM
@TSO Products

I just got around to checking the second set of Mk2 sticks, this time using some m6 precision pins I had on hand:

Inserted pins with the bevel up in holes @ positions 0/2/4/32 (center) & 7 using washers underneath the sticks to ensure that the pins were fully seated past the slightly rounded ends:

(Attachment Link)

The final holes @ 10/32/48 did not line up, they were off around .5mm, and you can see the edge of the sticks also didn't line up:

I then went back and attempted to feel whether inserting the pins @ 32 (center) and 7 was causing the sticks to flex slightly, and they were. As far as I can tell the misalignment appears to be in the form of a gradual curve in one/both sticks. I haven't attempted to drill holes and check the alignment but based on what I observe it appears the result would be a line of holes slightly out of true.

As a check I inserted a pin @ 0 and the righthand 48, then attempted to insert one in 6. it would not go in unless I pushed the top stick down slightly (relative to the text) and the misalignment of the 2 holes was smaller than the photo above. This seems to be consistent with the results I got using the other method, i.e. it was about half the amount and in the opposite direction. Here's a sketch attempting to illustrate this:

The sticks themselves are not straight when checked using the woodpeckers 4' straightedge, each has a slight bow in the center of around .5mm also. This bow was reversed between the 2 sticks, one bowing up and one down relative to the printed text.

Edit: The errors I am measuring differ from the first set to the second set. The errors in the first set appear to be the distance between holes, I didn't check whether they were along a straight line. My results seem consistent between the original set of sticks and the set Axminster sent me as replacements. This causes me to question whether I am somehow coming up with skewed results due to operator error?

I'm also not sure if I'm simply overthinking this or not relative to expectations of the precision of the sticks?

Hans, I guess I'll send you both sets to let you try to verify this.

RMW

Is it possible that each hole is drilled/punched/whatever relative to the (crooked) edge of the rule rather than in a straight line?

BTW, what a beautiful bench! If I had that, I'd be reluctant to do any work on it.  : )
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Richard/RMW on April 21, 2019, 05:00 PM
@TSO Products

I just got around to checking the second set of Mk2 sticks, this time using some m6 precision pins I had on hand:

Inserted pins with the bevel up in holes @ positions 0/2/4/32 (center) & 7 using washers underneath the sticks to ensure that the pins were fully seated past the slightly rounded ends:

(Attachment Link)

The final holes @ 10/32/48 did not line up, they were off around .5mm, and you can see the edge of the sticks also didn't line up:

I then went back and attempted to feel whether inserting the pins @ 32 (center) and 7 was causing the sticks to flex slightly, and they were. As far as I can tell the misalignment appears to be in the form of a gradual curve in one/both sticks. I haven't attempted to drill holes and check the alignment but based on what I observe it appears the result would be a line of holes slightly out of true.

As a check I inserted a pin @ 0 and the righthand 48, then attempted to insert one in 6. it would not go in unless I pushed the top stick down slightly (relative to the text) and the misalignment of the 2 holes was smaller than the photo above. This seems to be consistent with the results I got using the other method, i.e. it was about half the amount and in the opposite direction. Here's a sketch attempting to illustrate this:

The sticks themselves are not straight when checked using the woodpeckers 4' straightedge, each has a slight bow in the center of around .5mm also. This bow was reversed between the 2 sticks, one bowing up and one down relative to the printed text.

Edit: The errors I am measuring differ from the first set to the second set. The errors in the first set appear to be the distance between holes, I didn't check whether they were along a straight line. My results seem consistent between the original set of sticks and the set Axminster sent me as replacements. This causes me to question whether I am somehow coming up with skewed results due to operator error?

I'm also not sure if I'm simply overthinking this or not relative to expectations of the precision of the sticks?

Hans, I guess I'll send you both sets to let you try to verify this.

RMW

Is it possible that each hole is drilled/punched/whatever relative to the (crooked) edge of the rule rather than in a straight line?

BTW, what a beautiful bench! If I had that, I'd be reluctant to do any work on it.  : )

Dick, I think it's possible but I'm turning this over to the pro's, I've reached the limit of my precision-machinist Jui Jitsu...  [big grin]

Thanks, that work area is in my inside office/workroom. It only sees light duty for stuff like leatherwork, electronics, etc. Some Brazillian cherry T&G flooring I got cheap, trimmed and laminated, hard as a rock. The goofy thing is due to being at the shore (very small parcels of land, 6KSF in our case) I have 3X the SF inside that I do in the outdoor shop. 

RMW
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: jkc_WA on May 02, 2019, 02:07 AM
I am new to the FOG forums but have been following from a distance for bit. I was particularly interested in this thread since I just received this week a Parf Guide Mark II. Some of the comments had me a little concerned about the manufacturing process and quality checks. Now that I have had a chance to unpack the guide and examine the contents (unfortunately I have not had time to put them to good use!), I wanted to share my experience and the condition of the items.

First off, I ordered from Axminster and had them deliver to the states. The package was ordered on a Thursday and arrived the following Monday. So that was quite a nice surprise to be honest. I was prepared to wait a week or so. The package was in perfect condition and the contents were tightly packed with foam and in perfect condition.

When I took the rules out and laid them on top of one another, carefully aligning the sides of the rules the holes did not line up perfectly. But when I inserted the 6mm joining screw at hole zero:

[attachimg=1]

and then inserted the long-spigot drill guide into the various holes along the rules, they were all perfectly aligned.

[attachimg=2]

(the above photo shows that there appears to be a circle printed or etched onto the rule where the 6mm hole was to be located)

Hole 7:

[attachimg=3]

Hole "12" (end of rule):

[attachimg=4]

As you can see in the above photo, the rules themselves don't perfectly aline. But the holes do and that is the most important part.

I'm including one more of the logo if that is important to verify the batch as some have indicated.

[attachimg=5]

Perhaps this will be redundant in which case I trust the moderators will do their jobs and remove it. I wanted to add another data point to show what I received and in what condition it arrived. I am quite pleased and am looking forward to this weekend so I can put them to their proper use.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly1 on May 02, 2019, 02:37 AM
@jkc_WA so far so good :-)

However, before you go ahead with your production holes, I'd suggest performing some of the tests in the previous posts above. At the moment your tests show the holes in the rules are consistent lengthwise only. I am interested to see if your holes are "straight" as well on both rules.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: jkc_WA on May 02, 2019, 02:58 AM
@Solly1 As a quick check, I flipped one rule over so the logo'd sides were facing. No variation in holes that I could tell. inserted the screw in one side and the longer drill guide in the other. Then clamped them down and was able to register the long drill guide in all the holes. A visual inspection showed them to be aligned as well (some of your pics it was clear from just the photos with no need to measure).
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly1 on May 02, 2019, 03:02 AM
@jkc_WA good signs, please report back with the straight edge test once you complete a row of 20mm holes, hope it all remains straight.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on May 02, 2019, 09:25 AM
@jkc_WA

Glad you had good luck with your rules.

I have had small issues with the hole finishing requiring some cleanup of the bore and chamfer so I looked closely at your first & last photos of post #169. Sure looks like they are doing something to remove the rolled over material I had at the chamfers on mine. If you look around holes 9, 32, and 48 on these photos almost looks like the cleanup tool was a little off center. The chamfer footprint looks oblong - doesn't seem to be from an optical illusion. This tells me they are possibly cleaning up the chamfers. I'm not in front of your rules but that mark around hole #2 almost looks like a mis-hit of the chamfer cleanup tool (too perfectly circular in shape to do by hand)?

Mike
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly1 on May 02, 2019, 09:39 AM
@Mike Goetzke good pick up, it does indeed look like all of the holes in jkc_wa's photos are consistently off centre and elongated in the north east direction and a deeper chamfer depth.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Michael Kellough on May 02, 2019, 09:51 AM
@jkc_WA  looking at your last photo showing the mismatch of the scales, looks like there is an extra increment in the lower scale over the course of just 80 mm. Could you stand the upper rule on edge on top of the lower to avoid parallax error?

If the rules are matched at the first increment how far off are they at the far end?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: jkc_WA on May 02, 2019, 02:08 PM
I thought the holes were oblong as well and wondered about cleanup. It really is hard to tell, even when holding them, but if you feel along them it is clear that the holes are not oblong. The discoloration that makes them appear longer is the remains of a circle that appears to have been printed or painted on the rules prior to machining them. The holes are indeed smooth and round, and there are no burrs or rolled edges. Very tidy.

I'm not at home now but will look at the scales and report back re: Michael Kellough's question later.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: jayshahu on May 02, 2019, 06:27 PM
I finally got a hold of my PARF Guide Mark 2 and tested the rulers for alignment and holes being co linear.

1) There was an alignment problem and the holes were  not co linear.

I sent an email to Axminster and they sent me  new set of rulers which are co linear and aligned with each other

But now I discovered a new problem. My 20 mm cutter has a bent shaft. When I tried to drill a 20 mm hole the entire work piece vibrates.

Does anyone has this problem?

(http://)

Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on May 02, 2019, 07:08 PM
- as you may know TSO has sold a great many Parf Guides, Original and Mark 2. We have had ZERO calls on Dill Bit vibration due to bent shaft or any other reason,
Have you isolated the problem to a bent shaft? - if so request a replacement from your dealer.
If the shaft is straight and the tip does not show measurable run-out, you might take another look at your CentroTec engagement with your Drill quick-disconnect chuck. It is possible to insert the bit only partially into the FESTOOL Chuck without it being obvious - thus causing wobble and vibration.

Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: jayshahu on May 02, 2019, 08:01 PM
Yes. Pls see the attached picture. The shank which goes into the chuck is bent . It is quite a bit off at the very top of the shank. Depending on how far you put the shank into the chuck the wobble becomes pronounced or subdued.

Axminster was very prompt in fixing the rulers. I have reached out to them already for the bit .

Will update once I hear back from them.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ColossusX on May 04, 2019, 08:28 PM
Any idea when TSO or Axminster will get the Mk 2 back in stock?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Jruks on May 08, 2019, 10:29 AM
Just got finished drilling about 200 holes (x2 if you count the 3mm) over the last 2 days... system works very well but darn I wish I had a Festool drill with removable chuck.

The stop collar shipping on mark 2 is still garbage. It stripped and fell off about 2/3 of the way through and I just had to keep the bit attached in my drill chick.

@TSO Products I bought from you guys but think you guys should go back to including your own steel stop collar if possible like you did with mark 1. The one included in aluminum is not durable at all over more than 1 MFT table worth of holes. The rest of the kit is solid though.

I haven’t tested the layout everywhere but checked a few spots across the table and seems good. There was only one column I found with a small rocking between 3 dogs. It wasn’t more than 1mm but I didn’t break out the deeer gauges to check. Other columns seemed fine so not sure what happened with that column but it’s not one I plan to use for cross cutting anyway. Will do more testing next weekend.

Overall very happy though.

Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on May 08, 2019, 10:42 AM
Quote:
@TSO Products I bought from you guys but think you guys should go back to including your own steel stop collar if possible like you did with mark 1. The one included in aluminum is not durable at all over more than 1 MFT table worth of holes. The rest of the kit is solid though.

@Jruks – we really appreciate your comments about the Stop Collar. The Clamping Collar we have added for a time while AXMINSTER was still supplying the steel set screw version solved the problem. The cost to us was painfully high for two reasons: the high cost of supplying a US made Stainless Steel Clamping Collar, inbound shipping, receiving, then picking and opening the Parf Guide tubes to include the Clamping collar and an explanatory notice all added up. Before we could even overpack the PGS and return it to the warehouse shelf.
You can see how labor- and  transaction cost-intensive some harmless looking items actually turn out to be.
I will be in England later this month and meet with Axminster. I will take this matter up with them again. – thanks for your feedback!
Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Jruks on May 08, 2019, 10:53 AM
Totally get it. You guys went above and beyond on that one. Obviously the ideal would be for Axminster to include a better quality stop in the first place :).

Quote:
@TSO Products I bought from you guys but think you guys should go back to including your own steel stop collar if possible like you did with mark 1. The one included in aluminum is not durable at all over more than 1 MFT table worth of holes. The rest of the kit is solid though.

@Jruks – we really appreciate your comments about the Stop Collar. The Clamping Collar we have added for a time while AXMINSTER was still supplying the steel set screw version solved the problem. The cost to us was painfully high for two reasons: the high cost of supplying a US made Stainless Steel Clamping Collar, inbound shipping, receiving, then picking and opening the Parf Guide tubes to include the Clamping collar and an explanatory notice all added up. Before we could even overpack the PGS and return it to the warehouse shelf.
You can see how labor- and  transaction cost-intensive some harmless looking items actually turn out to be.
I will be in England later this month and meet with Axminster. I will take this matter up with them again. – thanks for your feedback!
Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on May 08, 2019, 11:58 AM
Any idea when TSO or Axminster will get the Mk 2 back in stock?

@ColossusX  - According to Axminster they will be shipping our order next week. May 13 - 17. We are expecting to be able to deliver to customers May 24th.

Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ColossusX on May 08, 2019, 11:38 PM
Excellent.  Hope to place an order soon. 
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: mxn on May 10, 2019, 04:05 AM
Hello everybody,

I'm a quiet reader for some time now, this is my first post in this nice community. English is not my first language, but I think you get the point of what I'm trying to share  [wink].

I recently ordered the PGS Mk II after some trial and finally realizing I would not get the precision I was looking for with other methods (except a CNC which was not an option). I ordered from Axminster UK and got the package in under one week (UK to Germany). The sticks came with a silk print and unfortunately suffered from the issues some of you already mentioned: The sticks had a little curve showing a gap when placed side by side, when fixed in hole 1 and 6 the ends around hole 10 overlapped by about 0,5 mm and so on... A major problem I see with the line of holes not being parallel to the ruler's edge is that I can't get the first set of holes parallel to the benchtop's edge easily by positioning the ruler's edge - even if the hole would be perfectly in line...
I contacted the Axminster CS and got a quick and nice reply, a set of sticks that had been checked for accuracy had been shipped out to me free of charge.
The second set was indeed accurate, the holes seemed a little tight and I had to use quite some force to bring in the drill guide for the first times but for me that's ok and acceptable due to the tight tolerances. The second set had the embossed Logo in it. As far as I know from what I read, these should be the old ones, right? I could imagine that there's something wrong with the production line of the "new" sets, maybe that could even be the reason for the major stores being out of stock at the moment. However, I'm pleased with the result I now get with this set and do not regret buying it and - by the way - supporting Mr. Parfitt as the genius inventor!  [wink]
Another little thing I saw when I thought about a storing solution: The 25 mm head of the parf dogs fit the first gap under the drill guide bushing in the orange block but do not fit the second gap. Can anybody confirm this with his / her set?

Cheers, Max

Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on May 11, 2019, 11:48 AM
@mxn Your rules appear to me to be the new ones.

"The 25 mm head of the parf dogs fit the first gap under the drill guide bushing in the orange block but do not fit the second gap. Can anybody confirm this with his / her set?"  Mine is like this too.

Mike
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Claimdude on May 11, 2019, 09:09 PM
Hans,

Would this stainless collar from Grainger work for those of us that didn't get in on the kits y'all sold with the updated collar?

https://www.grainger.com/product/RULAND-MANUFACTURING-316-Stainless-Steel-Shaft-30VK78

Thanks
 Jack

Quote:
@TSO Products I bought from you guys but think you guys should go back to including your own steel stop collar if possible like you did with mark 1. The one included in aluminum is not durable at all over more than 1 MFT table worth of holes. The rest of the kit is solid though.

@Jruks – we really appreciate your comments about the Stop Collar. The Clamping Collar we have added for a time while AXMINSTER was still supplying the steel set screw version solved the problem. The cost to us was painfully high for two reasons: the high cost of supplying a US made Stainless Steel Clamping Collar, inbound shipping, receiving, then picking and opening the Parf Guide tubes to include the Clamping collar and an explanatory notice all added up. Before we could even overpack the PGS and return it to the warehouse shelf.
You can see how labor- and  transaction cost-intensive some harmless looking items actually turn out to be.
I will be in England later this month and meet with Axminster. I will take this matter up with them again. – thanks for your feedback!
Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on May 11, 2019, 10:05 PM
Hans,

Would this stainless collar from Grainger work for those of us that didn't get in on the kits y'all sold with the updated collar?

https://www.grainger.com/product/RULAND-MANUFACTURING-316-Stainless-Steel-Shaft-30VK78

Thanks
 Jack


YES, Jack - that is the Clamping Collar we have provided. Perhaps we should make it available for purchase. Wonder if there is enough interest to warrant the effort.
Any others interested?

Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: jayshahu on May 12, 2019, 08:03 PM
axminister was out of the 20 mm drill bit till Thursday. They sent me a new one on friday. Waiting for it to arrive.

I seem to be having a run with bad luck. First the rulers, then the 20 mm drill bit shaft. I tried testing the bench dogs in the orange block and there is a little bit of a play . Once I get my drill bit I will drill a set of holes and see what happens.

This is crazy. I should have purchased from TSO. Though axminster has been great with regards to customer service but the shipping times are just too much.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: m. lindholm on May 15, 2019, 10:51 AM
Hans,

Would this stainless collar from Grainger work for those of us that didn't get in on the kits y'all sold with the updated collar?

https://www.grainger.com/product/RULAND-MANUFACTURING-316-Stainless-Steel-Shaft-30VK78

Thanks
 Jack

YES, Jack - that is the Clamping Collar we have provided. Perhaps we should make it available for purchase. Wonder if there is enough interest to warrant the effort.
Any others interested?

Hans

I assume it merely looks similar, but isn't technically the actual one you got.  While the stainless clamping collar is an improvement over the aluminum setscrew one, it seems a disservice to choose a $32 part, versus a very similar, $12 one (https://www.grainger.com/product/RULAND-MANUFACTURING-303-Stainless-Steel-Shaft-2ALA6).  Including an item like that would certainly have explained some of the cost difference between you and ordering direct from Axminster.  [wink]

Kidding aside, even though I got the Mark II kit which now includes the clamping collar, the aluminum one got scratched and galled on its bottom surface after making my first top.  I had planned to order one of the stainless clamping collars (the $12 303-SS one, not the $32 316-SS one) to replace it, since I have a Grainger near where I eat lunch, so no shipping charge.

I think it's a reasonable idea to get a small quantity of the cheaper ones, and add them to your items.  Especially if a person doesn't have a Grainger nearby, adding that to a Parf guide order is a smart add-on idea.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on May 15, 2019, 11:33 AM
Hans,

Would this stainless collar from Grainger work for those of us that didn't get in on the kits y'all sold with the updated collar?

https://www.grainger.com/product/RULAND-MANUFACTURING-316-Stainless-Steel-Shaft-30VK78

Thanks
 Jack

YES, Jack - that is the Clamping Collar we have provided. Perhaps we should make it available for purchase. Wonder if there is enough interest to warrant the effort.
Any others interested?

Hans

I assume it merely looks similar, but isn't technically the actual one you got.  While the stainless clamping collar is an improvement over the aluminum setscrew one, it seems a disservice to choose a $32 part, versus a very similar, $12 one (https://www.grainger.com/product/RULAND-MANUFACTURING-303-Stainless-Steel-Shaft-2ALA6).  Including an item like that would certainly have explained some of the cost difference between you and ordering direct from Axminster.  [wink]

Kidding aside, even though I got the Mark II kit which now includes the clamping collar, the aluminum one got scratched and galled on its bottom surface after making my first top.  I had planned to order one of the stainless clamping collars (the $12 303-SS one, not the $32 316-SS one) to replace it, since I have a Grainger near where I eat lunch, so no shipping charge.

I think it's a reasonable idea to get a small quantity of the cheaper ones, and add them to your items.  Especially if a person doesn't have a Grainger nearby, adding that to a Parf guide order is a smart add-on idea.

Sorry but why is the aluminum stop collar not good. If it’s wear couldn’t we just add a $0.25 nylon wear washer in place of a $32 SS collar?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: tomp on May 15, 2019, 12:00 PM
Or, you could try something like this, shouldn't be too hard to open the bore up to 10mm

Nylon Split Collar (https://www.amazon.com/Climax-Metal-N2C-037-Clamping-Collar/dp/B003E7EE08/ref=sr_1_11?qid=1557935844&refinements=p_n_feature_seven_browse-bin%3A5485578011&s=industrial&sr=1-11)
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: jkc_WA on May 16, 2019, 01:34 AM
To follow up after having a chance to make a quick cutting station, I did a five cut test. I measured 0.934" at the top end, 0.928" at the bottom end. The offcut piece was 13 3/4" long (actually just shy, more like 13 47/64"). So it was 0.007" over 13.75". [0.007/13.75/4] gives an actual error of 0.00013 radians!
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: jkc_WA on May 16, 2019, 01:36 AM
I just noticed my error in reporting 0.007 as the difference between .934 and .928. Should be 0.006 which would then yield an error of 0.00011 radians.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Rta108 on July 04, 2019, 01:33 PM
First post here.
Researching the problems I’m having with my new mark 2 Parf system. I can’t seem to make a straight line of holes, seeing basically the same issues mentioned previously.

Bought direct from axminster, so I’ve reached out to them hoping for some help.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO_Products on July 04, 2019, 02:06 PM
First post here.
Researching the problems I’m having with my new mark 2 Parf system. I can’t seem to make a straight line of holes, seeing basically the same issues mentioned previously.

Bought direct from axminster, so I’ve reached out to them hoping for some help.

@Rta108 -let us know if we can help here in the US.

Holes not lining up at this stage of the MARK 2 product life seems an unlikely product defect. I saw their checking fixture when I was there 6 weeks ago. A machined fixture with fixed steel locating pins and they're checking 100% of production Parf Stick Mark 2.

You can reach us at
          info@tsoproducts.com

mention your FOG handle and add a phone number, too!

Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO_Products on July 04, 2019, 02:13 PM
 -one more picture of the Parf Stick Inspection fixture - detail

Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Rta108 on July 04, 2019, 02:17 PM
Email sent thanks.

I’m far from perfect. I’ve actually spent some time trying to rule myself out as the problem.

I’m finding The misalignment errors to be consistent and repeatable.



Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Rta108 on July 04, 2019, 02:20 PM
The holes shown in those Parf sticks look much cleaner than mine.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly1 on July 04, 2019, 04:18 PM
@TSO Products - seems like the perfect opportunity to discuss instigating, what seems to be on the surface, obvious improvements to the execution ...
a) a quality check at the end of manufacture that emulates the tests we are all doing in this thread to identify discrepancies before they reach customers (e.g.a highly accurate machined rack with 17 x 6mm posts that each ruler is stacked upon, or discarded if not able to be)

Holes not lining up at this stage of the MARK 2 product life seems an unlikely product defect. I saw their checking fixture when I was there 6 weeks ago. A machined fixture with fixed steel locating pins and they're checking 100% of production Parf Stick Mark 2.

Glad they adopted my suggestion Hans @TSO_Products [tongue] [big grin], in theory it should eliminate the rule issues although if Rta108's purchase was recent, maybe not? I wonder if it's possible the rules deform at altitude/temp changes when shipping somehow ...

@Rta108 Further to above posts, I subsequently received a 2nd set of rules from Axminster (their follow up service was impeccable) ... rule #3's holes weren't co-linear, but rule #4 was close. I therefore only used #3 for layout pinned between 0 and 10, and only #4 for drilling the holes. I also found that when pinned in 0 and 10, there was the ability for the rule to deflect significantly, so I took to using three pins, 0, 10 and adjacent to the current hole being drilled to secure it. Likewise 3 pins / locators with the 20mm jig. Seemed to improve things considerably.

I since completed a full set of holes on a full sheet work table 2400 x 1200 and diagonals between holes were within 1mm taking Peter's advice to begin in the middle third and work outwards. Yet to confirm if all the holes are co-linear, but a couple of quick 5 cut tests seemed very accurate (0.00007 radians / 0.004 degrees if my math was correct). I also drilled some 3mm holes in all 4 corners and middle to allow for future offset holes if desired.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Rta108 on July 04, 2019, 05:06 PM
My rulers look a little rough, IMO.

The whole set oozes quality.... until you notice the holes. rough chamfers, burrs, and general inconsistency. Sometimes the 3mm pin drops right in, sometimes I can’t get it at all without a battle. I’d say they look like they’ve been worked by hand.

Hoping I just got old stock.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Rta108 on July 11, 2019, 07:46 PM
Got my replacement sticks direct from Axminster. I agree, follow up service was top notch.

I still can’t get a straight row holes, with either of the new rulers. On of them is particularly bad at the 32/48 offset holes on the end. If I flip a stick and stack them, as mirror image, the holes don’t line up when pinned together at 0 and 10.

Also, interestingly, the sticks themselves aren’t straight. Slight curve. I know that shouldn’t matter, as long as the holes are straight, but the hole misalignment does follow the curve of the ruler.

Oh well. Return shipping cost makes a refund request impractical. I guess it’s still good for dog holes, just can’t use it to line up a track.

Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Jruks on July 11, 2019, 08:07 PM
Why not just keep asking for replacement sticks until you get a set that works? Given their customer service they should sort you out even if it takes a few tries for that price.

Got my replacement sticks direct from Axminster. I agree, follow up service was top notch.

I still can’t get a straight row holes, with either of the new rulers. On of them is particularly bad at the 32/48 offset holes on the end. If I flip a stick and stack them, as mirror image, the holes don’t line up when pinned together at 0 and 10.

Also, interestingly, the sticks themselves aren’t straight. Slight curve. I know that shouldn’t matter, as long as the holes are straight, but the hole misalignment does follow the curve of the ruler.

Oh well. Return shipping cost makes a refund request impractical. I guess it’s still good for dog holes, just can’t use it to line up a track.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Rta108 on July 11, 2019, 08:29 PM
Why not just keep asking for replacement sticks until you get a set that works? Given their customer service they should sort you out even if it takes a few tries for that price.

Got my replacement sticks direct from Axminster. I agree, follow up service was top notch.

I still can’t get a straight row holes, with either of the new rulers. On of them is particularly bad at the 32/48 offset holes on the end. If I flip a stick and stack them, as mirror image, the holes don’t line up when pinned together at 0 and 10.

Also, interestingly, the sticks themselves aren’t straight. Slight curve. I know that shouldn’t matter, as long as the holes are straight, but the hole misalignment does follow the curve of the ruler.

Oh well. Return shipping cost makes a refund request impractical. I guess it’s still good for dog holes, just can’t use it to line up a track.

I’m just kind of over it. Not investing more time or material. Plus FedEx requires a signature, so I have to drive 20 minutes to the depot to pick up after work.

These ones were checked before they went out. If they discovered/corrected some manufacturing issue, I’d ask for another set.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on July 11, 2019, 09:38 PM
I’m just kind of over it. Not investing more time or material.

This is where I ended up several months ago too . . . just kind of over it.

I like the idea, but my experience with the PGS MKII is that there are issues that Axminster has not been able to resolve.

Paul
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on July 11, 2019, 09:51 PM
It would be a great help if you, as a customer receiving an unsatisfactory Parf Guide, give TSO the opportunity to evaluate the part right here in the US before any attempt has been made to correct or “fix” the problem. It does not matter from whom you purchased your Parf Guide. To help, we need the “evidence” to root out the underlying cause and we will provide the no-charge replacement from our fresh stock for the few examples which may still turn up.

Hans and Eric

Hans,

I participated in your call for artifacts several weeks ago and I know that you later met with Axminster to discuss the results of your testing. Are you able to share in a general sense what you discovered? How many Parf Sticks did you test, and were you able to confirm the reported issues?

Paul
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on July 11, 2019, 11:24 PM
what  I saw and the picture I posted on Reply # 198 seemed to me get the job done, considering they had changed from stamping the holes to CNC Milling them. But apparently that approach still let's some some less than satisfactory product get out the door.

What has them scratching their heads is that a very few unsatisfactory parts reach customers without them having the ability to pin down down a pattern or root cause to nail down.

I plan to have further conversations with ADMINISTER about process improvements they are making.

We'll stay with it - they're good people making a real effort.

Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on July 11, 2019, 11:31 PM
My rulers look a little rough, IMO.

The whole set oozes quality.... until you notice the holes. rough chamfers, burrs, and general inconsistency. Sometimes the 3mm pin drops right in, sometimes I can’t get it at all without a battle. I’d say they look like they’ve been worked by hand.

Hoping I just got old stock.

@Rta108 Can’t agree more about the rules. Look at some of my replies above. Looks like you got old stock to me. I got 3 sets of rules and gave up letting them get them right. I took a small file to the holes just to clean the crud out. Then I took a Dremel with sand paper to the surface to flatten up the chamfers that had rolled over material. They look nasty but produce very accurate holes now.

Mike
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Rta108 on July 12, 2019, 07:04 AM
My 2 sets definitely seem to be from different production runs. The newer set has an embossed UJK logo. The first set had logo printed directly on the surface.

I advised Axminster about my issues with set #2. They didn’t respond, but I hope they are working the problem and keep us in mind when they get this figured out.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Woody Knotsensplintahs on July 13, 2019, 01:11 PM
I just ordered a Parf II system from TSO Products last night after waiting a long while for stock to be listed as available. I am hoping the issue has been resolved. I feel like I should have asked before placing the order, but I was also concerned that the in stock status would quickly change back to out of stock if I delayed my order.

Finger crossed. I am anxious to receive the items, and in the mean time I would love to learn if TSO has had a chance to inspect and confirm that the rails in their fresh stock are properly aligned, spaced, etc.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Halle on July 13, 2019, 02:10 PM
I just ordered a Parf II system from TSO Products last night after waiting a long while for stock to be listed as available. I am hoping the issue has been resolved. I feel like I should have asked before placing the order, but I was also concerned that the in stock status would quickly change back to out of stock if I delayed my order.

Finger crossed. I am anxious to receive the items, and in the mean time I would love to learn if TSO has had a chance to inspect and confirm that the rails in their fresh stock are properly aligned, spaced, etc.

Thank you!

@Woody Knotsensplintahs ,  one thing I can tell you is that TSO stands behind everything they make or sell.  The believe in customer satisfaction to the nines.

Loosen your collar, take a deep breath, and relax.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: box185 on July 13, 2019, 04:40 PM

Loosen your collar, take a deep breath, and relax.

Peter

Peter, I think Woody is justified in being concerned based on post #208 alone. Everyone already knows that Axminster or TSO stands behind this product, but customers should not be thinking about receiving a defective product seven months into this.

A better solution might be to use the 20mm drill guide. a straight edge, and a good square to make the holes. This method is tedious, but it does not rely on the Parf Sticks. Maybe they could change the design of the 20mm drill guide so that the alternative method would be less tedious.

Paul
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Rta108 on July 13, 2019, 10:01 PM
The curved sticks is what bugs me he most. Not starting with straight stock seems like a recipe for disaster.

How does the stock get indexed in the cnc before milling the holes? It must use the sides of the sticks, right?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Rta108 on July 15, 2019, 05:44 PM
I just noticed that the inspection fixture posted at #197 doesn’t even check the 32/48 mm offset holes that so many have had issues with.

@TSO Products, do they have an additional step for those holes?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Woody Knotsensplintahs on July 16, 2019, 11:29 AM
My order shipped yesterday. I had been checking the TSO website twice a day with the hope of getting to purchase a kit. I was concerned that I would be out of service when the automated email for in stock status notification was sent out. Curiously, it has been several days since the item was listed as in stock, and it is still listed as in stock, yet I never did receive an email notifying me of the stock status update.

I guess I got lucky?

 
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Rta108 on July 16, 2019, 03:43 PM
Be sure to report back after you get a chance to drill some holes!

My order shipped yesterday. I had been checking the TSO website twice a day with the hope of getting to purchase a kit. I was concerned that I would be out of service when the automated email for in stock status notification was sent out. Curiously, it has been several days since the item was listed as in stock, and it is still listed as in stock, yet I never did receive an email notifying me of the stock status update.

I guess I got lucky?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ChiknNutz on July 16, 2019, 03:51 PM
I ordered a kit today, have not rec'd a shipping confirmation, but it was at least indicated to be in stock.

EDIT: Rec'd shipping confirmation right after I posted this so guess they are still in stock.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Rta108 on July 22, 2019, 04:42 PM
I ordered a kit today, have not rec'd a shipping confirmation, but it was at least indicated to be in stock.

EDIT: Rec'd shipping confirmation right after I posted this so guess they are still in stock.

Have you had an opportunity to layout any holes?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ChiknNutz on July 22, 2019, 09:45 PM
I ordered a kit today, have not rec'd a shipping confirmation, but it was at least indicated to be in stock.

EDIT: Rec'd shipping confirmation right after I posted this so guess they are still in stock.

Have you had an opportunity to layout any holes?

Not yet.  Took all the bits out to inspect and was impressed by the overall quality and heft of the components.  Like many here, I appreciate finely made items and this does not disappoint.

I am still designing my MFT.  I am currently laying out the overall size I want.  I also am planning to make an MFT with surfaces at 90 degrees to each other so I have large surface to attach items vertically as well as horizontally.  I am sure this has been done, but haven't yet seen pix.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly1 on July 22, 2019, 09:55 PM
I am still designing my MFT.  I am currently laying out the overall size I want.  I also am planning to make an MFT with surfaces at 90 degrees to each other so I have large surface to attach items vertically as well as horizontally.  I am sure this has been done, but haven't yet seen pix.

One example that might give you some ideas ;-) https://youtu.be/zFAxqs_-JCY?t=827
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ChiknNutz on July 22, 2019, 10:12 PM
One example that might give you some ideas ;-) https://youtu.be/zFAxqs_-JCY?t=827

That's a good one, thanks.  I was going to make mine a bit larger (and a mobile cart), but may not really need to for the vertical surface, but for the same reasons he illustrates.  I am also making mine from AC plywood so it will be more stable than MDF.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on July 23, 2019, 07:43 AM
@ChickenNuts - the plans for Dave Stanton's bench are available here -
https://tsoproducts.com/plans-drawings/stanton-bench-plans/

along with Parf Guide Systems, Original and Mark 2
https://tsoproducts.com/accessories/ujk-technology-parf-guide-system-mark-ii/

Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Rta108 on July 23, 2019, 11:26 AM
I wish I could fit a big table in the garage.

Not for nothing, highly recommend a smaller test of the parf system before you commit to drilling your good top. Especially if you’re going to use nice plywood. Especially if you’re interested in the 32/48 offsets.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mike Goetzke on July 23, 2019, 12:25 PM
I wish I could fit a big table in the garage.

Not for nothing, highly recommend a smaller test of the parf system before you commit to drilling your good top. Especially if you’re going to use nice plywood. Especially if you’re interested in the 32/48 offsets.

@Rta108 - check out my post on a 4x8 table in my garage:   http://festoolownersgroup.com/member-projects/my-take-on-4-ft-x-8-ft-worktable/msg583717/#msg583717
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ben_r_ on August 03, 2019, 02:23 PM
Is anyone aware of a link to a good overview covering the differences between the original version and the Mark II? I can’t seem to find anything providing a straight answer as to what exactly changed.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on August 03, 2019, 02:39 PM
Is anyone aware of a link to a good overview covering the differences between the original version and the Mark II? I can’t seem to find anything providing a straight answer as to what exactly changed.

@ben_r_  you make a good point. This is some thing we could/should/have thought of ourselves.

We will put this together and post it here as well as up on our product page.
For now: the biggest difference is the use of a Mark 2 drill bushing/fixture for drilling the 3mm pilot holes instead of the 3mm drill bit using the original Parf Stick - eventually after many holes enlarging the parf stick holes slightly.

On the Mark 2 the Parf Stick holes are 6mm to accommodate the locating projection on the drill bushing fixture. The drill bit does not touch the Parf Stick

The Parf Stick on the Mark 2 also adds a 32 and 48 mm hole spacing provision. We will put up the User Guide for the Mark 2 - thanks to your question I discovered that we have the "Original" user guide on the product page for both version.

FWIW: We expect a substantial price increase for the Mark 2 coming this fall.

Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: PeterJJames13 on August 03, 2019, 02:43 PM
Is anyone aware of a link to a good overview covering the differences between the original version and the Mark II? I can’t seem to find anything providing a straight answer as to what exactly changed.

@ben_r_  you make a good point. This is some thing we could/should/have thought of ourselves.

We will put this together and post it here as well as up on our product page.
For now: the biggest difference is the use of a Mark 2 drill bushing/fixture for drilling the 3mm pilot holes instead of the 3mm drill bit using the original Parf Stick - eventually after many holes enlarging the parf stick holes slightly.

On the Mark 2 the Parf Stick holes are 6mm to accommodate the locating projection on the drill bushing fixture. The drill bit does not touch the Parf Stick

The Parf Stick on the Mark 2 also adds a 32 and 48 mm hole spacing provision. We will put up the User Guide for the Mark 2 - thanks to your question I discovered that we have the "Original" user guide on the product page for both version.

FWIW: We expect a substantial price increase for the Mark 2 coming this fall.

Hans

Glad I ordered mine this week - phew!
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ben_r_ on August 03, 2019, 02:58 PM
Is anyone aware of a link to a good overview covering the differences between the original version and the Mark II? I can’t seem to find anything providing a straight answer as to what exactly changed.

@ben_r_  you make a good point. This is some thing we could/should/have thought of ourselves.

We will put this together and post it here as well as up on our product page.
For now: the biggest difference is the use of a Mark 2 drill bushing/fixture for drilling the 3mm pilot holes instead of the 3mm drill bit using the original Parf Stick - eventually after many holes enlarging the parf stick holes slightly.

On the Mark 2 the Parf Stick holes are 6mm to accommodate the locating projection on the drill bushing fixture. The drill bit does not touch the Parf Stick

The Parf Stick on the Mark 2 also adds a 32 and 48 mm hole spacing provision. We will put up the User Guide for the Mark 2 - thanks to your question I discovered that we have the "Original" user guide on the product page for both version.

FWIW: We expect a substantial price increase for the Mark 2 coming this fall.

Hans
Got it. Thanks Hans!

Also, whats the deal with the dust collection adapter? Is that available in the US now?


EDIT: Nevermind, found it! LINK (https://tsoproducts.com/tools-equipment/ujk-technology-parf-dust-port/)
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on August 03, 2019, 03:37 PM
to all:
the Parf Dust Port is a must. For the money it is a really well designed essential accessory. Axminster invested some real money in injection mold tooling to make this snap on and STAY PUT!

MDF creates shavings that will bind up the cutter if you are not using effective dust extraction

Hans
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on August 03, 2019, 03:45 PM
I can only echo what Hans said. I have sometimes, when in a rush on site, excluded the dust port, and there was a noticeable difference. There was some clogging, and as a consequence more heat produced than usual.
I always use the port now, it’s so quick and easy to fit, there’s no excuse not too.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Rta108 on August 03, 2019, 04:20 PM
I clamped a small quick-grip to the end of my hose for some weight and just sat it up against the 20mm fixture. Worked fine to collect debris. Still gotta watch for the wafer that sticks to the special bit tho.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: wozzman on August 06, 2019, 10:49 PM
Hi All,

First time poster here...

I have recently received, after much excitement, the Parf Guide System II and have just tried to use it this morning. And I think I might have a problem?? And wanted to see if it was just me??!!

My question is, how tight should the actual holes be on the parf sticks?

It seems to me like there is a bit of 'play' or 'slop' in the parf stick holes that I have. With the pins securely in, I am able to move the sticks… only a small amount but enough for me to be concerned about the accuracy of what is believe is a highly accurate system. This concern becomes greater when I go to do the right angle where the two sticks intersect and meet up, there is double the ‘play’ there given that errors are starting to build up and this creates movement in the ruler of just under a millimetre... and that is where I stopped before going any further.

So, I measured the parf stick hole diameters and they all seem to be coming in at around 6.17 mm (using callipers). When I then measure the locator pins and drill guides etc they pretty much come in on or very close to 6.00mm (using the same calipers). Everything else seems highly accurate and really well made, which leads me to think that the 0.17mm variance in all the holes is a fault??

I’ve attached some photos to hopefully show what might be going on.

I’ve seen Peter’s videos and lots of comments about the system being rock solid and there being no play at all, but to me my parf sticks are sloppy.

I've already reached out to Axminster but they seem to be a bit slow on getting back at the moment, so I though I would see if this is normal or not from you guys. Just for the record, the sticks I have are the printed type.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Mario Turcot on August 06, 2019, 11:24 PM
@wozzman  [welcome] to the FOG

I have the original and the pins were EXTREMELY tight, a pain to remove at the beginning. I would assume the same with the Mark II, but Peter or Hans can answer this better then me.

@ben_r_  @TSO Products

Here is what you are looking about comparison between the original and Mark II

Guess who did it  [tongue]
MarkII (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sLtHYEo-nw)
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ChiknNutz on August 07, 2019, 08:05 AM
I have been using my recently rec'd MKII set for a table with several panels, used it again last night even.  I notice no perceptible play between the mating parts.  The largest grid I have made so far is 9X16 and I had no issues with any of the holes lining up properly with the Parf rules.  Do you also see this with the 3mm locator pins?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: wozzman on August 08, 2019, 07:51 AM
I have been using my recently rec'd MKII set for a table with several panels, used it again last night even.  I notice no perceptible play between the mating parts.  The largest grid I have made so far is 9X16 and I had no issues with any of the holes lining up properly with the Park rules.  Do you also see this with the 3mm locator pins?

The 3mm pins locate perfectly into the drilled hole. ZERO play, nice very firm fit. The 6mm guide that slots into the parf stick to drill the 3mm hole is almost exactly 6mm. Again, extremely well made. But the holes in the stick itself are, as I mentioned earlier, approx 6.17mm. I will say, although the holes are 6.17mm they are ALL 6.17mm or thereabouts making whatever happened consistent across the two sticks I have... strange.

As an update, Axminster replied earlier and they have said that the tolerances should be somewhere between 6.01-6.04mm, which is what I would have expected. So will be sending them in for an investigation and new ones coming out. Appreciate them sorting that out.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Rta108 on August 08, 2019, 03:41 PM
I have been using my recently rec'd MKII set for a table with several panels, used it again last night even.  I notice no perceptible play between the mating parts.  The largest grid I have made so far is 9X16 and I had no issues with any of the holes lining up properly with the Park rules.  Do you also see this with the 3mm locator pins?

Getting straight lines of holes? That’s good to hear. Have you had a chance to line up a track saw cut with dogs yet?

Neither of my first two sets of sticks were loose at all. Very tight hold with 3mm pins.

I have a third set of sticks coming in the mail now. Axminster says these were checked and tested. Also included a new pair of 3mm drill guides for some reason. Hopefully they aren’t having a new issue.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ChiknNutz on August 08, 2019, 04:37 PM
Just as of last night I just finished drill all holes, cutting all parts to size and also have begun assembly.  As such, I have not yet been able to test it all out yet.

What is the issue with you having three sets of rules/sticks?
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on August 08, 2019, 05:16 PM
There should be no noticeable play between the pins and rules/sticks.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Rta108 on August 08, 2019, 05:37 PM
Just as of last night I just finished drill all holes, cutting all parts to size and also have begun assembly.  As such, I have not yet been able to test it all out yet.

What is the issue with you having three sets of rules/sticks?

I checked in at post #196 of this thread with my first set of problems.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ChiknNutz on August 09, 2019, 09:38 AM
While I have not yet begun to use the table, it seems to me if there were issues with the hole spacing, I would have long discovered them by now.  I have made 5 separate surfaces with 20mm holes, ranging from 2 rows & 7 columns up to 9 rows & 16 columns.  I have used both sticks interchangeably and in no particular orientation.  If something were off, either the sticks or the drill jig would have highlighted the inaccuracy during the process.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Rta108 on August 09, 2019, 01:11 PM
Probably right.

My use of the system did not go smoothly as you describe.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ChiknNutz on August 09, 2019, 02:16 PM
I will state for the record that while almost all of the kit is superb, the edges of the holes in the Parf Sticks do leave a bit to be desired.  I don't have a picture of them, but can confirm they do look similar to what you posted earlier, though not the extent.  However, the thru holes are true and properly in line and the imperfections noted do not seem to affect the accuracy of the product.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly1 on August 09, 2019, 08:06 PM
@ChiknNutz I would be curious to hear with your completed tables, if you insert 3 dogs along a row of holes and place a known accurate straight edge across them (testing from both sides of the dogs), whether you notice any discernible "rock" in the straight edge whilst moving the centre dog to various holes in between the end dogs. Test various rows and columns.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ChiknNutz on August 10, 2019, 06:14 PM
@ChiknNutz I would be curious to hear with your completed tables, if you insert 3 dogs along a row of holes and place a known accurate straight edge across them (testing from both sides of the dogs), whether you notice any discernible "rock" in the straight edge whilst moving the centre dog to various holes in between the end dogs. Test various rows and columns.

I did as you asked and did not see any noticeable deviation in the linear hole relationship. I tried this in rows and columns as well as diagonally in various positions.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Woody Knotsensplintahs on August 12, 2019, 01:45 PM
Hi,
 Silly question; Asumming, as I have, that the Parf guides space the holes at 96mm on center, is that the same spacing that is used by Festool?

 I am asking because I am curious to learn if Festool MFT accessories meant to be aligned with two or more holes will also adapt to a DIY bench top made with Parf guides.

 For example; Is an item like this going to work when I get finished making my bench top with the Parf guides?:

 (https://www.woodpeck.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/1800x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/m/f/mft-layout-assembly-square_05.jpg)


 Thank you!
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: neilc on August 12, 2019, 04:28 PM
Woody -

Yes Festool and many third parties using 20mm holes have standardized on 96mm hole spacing.  Perf Guide works great for creating tops that can use these accessories.

Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Woody Knotsensplintahs on August 12, 2019, 05:45 PM
Thank you!

I am new to MFT use and appreciate the helpful info.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Dusty.Tools on August 19, 2019, 01:27 PM
Hi All,

Does anyone have a trick or tip for using the Parf Guide with laminate? I created a small top, as a test, and it worked perfectly. However once the cut gets through the laminate, the laminate breaks off from the MDF and stops the drill bit from going any further. Unfortunately even with the bit full retracted it's impossible to hook it out from under the drill bit, so I had to lift up the guide off the table. This process still leaves a perfect hole, it just takes longer....

Cheers

Ben
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ben_r_ on August 21, 2019, 06:44 PM
Urgh! Does anyone know WHY the UJK Technology Chamfer Tool was designed without a way to attach it to a drill??? My pointer finger and thumb ache just THINKING about sitting there rotating HUNDREDS of holes each on both sides just to complete one table top! Being that the tool is designed to bottom out to not over chamfer, why wouldn't it be used with a drill?!
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Solly1 on August 21, 2019, 07:02 PM
Although I have the chamfer tool, I used a trim router to do a 8 x 4 top with around 200 holes. Much easier, took maybe 20mins.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ben_r_ on August 21, 2019, 09:34 PM
Although I have the chamfer tool, I used a trim router to do a 8 x 4 top with around 200 holes. Much easier, took maybe 20mins.
Yea Im thinking the trim router with a chamfer bit is a must with this application. Im just so surprised anyone thought it would be a good idea to release the UJK Technology Chamfer Tool designed as it is.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on August 22, 2019, 08:34 AM
@Dusty.Tools  Ben, do you mean the breakout on exit, underneath, or the initial cut at the top?

@ben_r_  I really love the PGS, I think it’s a great invention but, I alway chamfer the holes with a router and chamfer bit.
I like using the Parf dog system, so I chamfer all my tops and the router is a fast solution.
The chamfer tool is fine though if you just need to do a few holes for a cutting station, or don’t own a router.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Dusty.Tools on August 22, 2019, 08:36 AM
@Dusty.Tools  Ben, do you mean the breakout on exit, underneath, or the initial cut at the top?

In the initial cut, I end up with a little round disc of laminate.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on August 22, 2019, 08:59 AM
Ah ok, got it. You might need a different type of forstner bit, or maybe the Festool 20mm Euro hinge boring bit, I think Bosch make on as well.

Some of these type have a sort of serrated bottom, that should cut through the laminate. I think they are, or were expensive though.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Peter Parfitt on August 22, 2019, 04:05 PM
@Dusty.Tools  Ben, do you mean the breakout on exit, underneath, or the initial cut at the top?

In the initial cut, I end up with a little round disc of laminate.

The clean exit hole of the UJK 20 mm cutter is the reason that the disc is there after a cut. On exiting, the hole is quite clean and so a neat little circular disc is formed by the wings of the cutter.

Peter
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ben_r_ on August 22, 2019, 05:49 PM
Wow, just added the Mark II system with the dust collection piece to cart and shipping (to California) from both Axminster and TSO Products and wow what a price difference!

Axminster: Parf Mk II Guide System ($175 USD) + Parf Dust Port ($26 USD) + Shipping ($10.06 USD) = $211.06 USD

TSO Products: Parf Mk II Guide System ($229.95 USD) + Parf Dust Port ($34.95 USD) + Shipping ($21.34 USD) = $286.24 USD

Saved me $75! Hopefully this saves someone else some money too! Can put those saved funds to some Parf Dogs for your new bench!


And wow I had no idea UJK made/rebranded so many other tools! (LINK (https://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-technology/?all=true))


EDIT: Soooo, to update this post, it appears now TSO lowered its prices and Axminster raised them. Go figure.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on August 22, 2019, 06:33 PM
@Dusty.Tools  Ben, do you mean the breakout on exit, underneath, or the initial cut at the top?

In the initial cut, I end up with a little round disc of laminate.

The clean exit hole of the UJK 20 mm cutter is the reason that the disc is there after a cut. On exiting, the hole is quite clean and so a neat little circular disc is formed by the wings of the cutter.

Peter

Hi Peter, I think Dusty is saying that on the initial cut, the bit is cutting a laminate disc, and will not cut any further/deeper until the disc is removed. He cannot clear the disc without removing the jig though.

Unless I’m mistaken?

JJ
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ChiknNutz on August 22, 2019, 09:39 PM
Wow, just added the Mark II system with the dust collection piece to cart and shipping (to California) from both Axminster and TSO Products and wow what a price difference!

Axminster: Parf Mk II Guide System ($175 USD) + Parf Dust Port ($26 USD) + Shipping ($10.06 USD) = $211.06 USD

TSO Products: Parf Mk II Guide System ($229.95 USD) + Parf Dust Port ($34.95 USD) + Shipping ($21.34 USD) = $286.24 USD

Saved me $75! Hopefully this saves someone else some money too! Can put those saved funds to some Parf Dogs for your new bench!


And wow I had no idea UJK made/rebranded so many other tools! (LINK (https://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-technology/?all=true))

I unfortunately did not know to price check until well after the fact.  Was a bit perturbed that TSO adds such a markup, but buyer beware!
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Rta108 on August 23, 2019, 04:15 PM
Wow, just added the Mark II system with the dust collection piece to cart and shipping (to California) from both Axminster and TSO Products and wow what a price difference!

Axminster: Parf Mk II Guide System ($175 USD) + Parf Dust Port ($26 USD) + Shipping ($10.06 USD) = $211.06 USD

TSO Products: Parf Mk II Guide System ($229.95 USD) + Parf Dust Port ($34.95 USD) + Shipping ($21.34 USD) = $286.24 USD

Saved me $75! Hopefully this saves someone else some money too! Can put those saved funds to some Parf Dogs for your new bench!


And wow I had no idea UJK made/rebranded so many other tools! (LINK (https://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-technology/?all=true))

I unfortunately did not know to price check until well after the fact.  Was a bit perturbed that TSO adds such a markup, but buyer beware!

...AND I’m betting international DHL package gets to you faster than domestic UPS.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ChiknNutz on August 23, 2019, 04:21 PM
I'd like to state for the record that Hans from TSO both emailed and called me regarding this price discrepancy.  I won't elaborate on the specifics, but will say their response is more than acceptable...especially given I never even asked for anything from them directly.  I just chalked it up to me not doing my due diligence (which I almost always do to a fault).  So I will say that TSO continues to be a great company to deal with.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Dusty.Tools on August 23, 2019, 06:11 PM
Wow, just added the Mark II system with the dust collection piece to cart and shipping (to California) from both Axminster and TSO Products and wow what a price difference!

Axminster: Parf Mk II Guide System ($175 USD) + Parf Dust Port ($26 USD) + Shipping ($10.06 USD) = $211.06 USD

TSO Products: Parf Mk II Guide System ($229.95 USD) + Parf Dust Port ($34.95 USD) + Shipping ($21.34 USD) = $286.24 USD

Saved me $75! Hopefully this saves someone else some money too! Can put those saved funds to some Parf Dogs for your new bench!


And wow I had no idea UJK made/rebranded so many other tools! (LINK (https://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-technology/?all=true))

I unfortunately did not know to price check until well after the fact.  Was a bit perturbed that TSO adds such a markup, but buyer beware!

...AND I’m betting international DHL package gets to you faster than domestic UPS.

It does yes! I just ordered a few parts and it'll be in Seattle on Monday!
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: Dusty.Tools on August 23, 2019, 06:12 PM
@Dusty.Tools  Ben, do you mean the breakout on exit, underneath, or the initial cut at the top?

In the initial cut, I end up with a little round disc of laminate.

The clean exit hole of the UJK 20 mm cutter is the reason that the disc is there after a cut. On exiting, the hole is quite clean and so a neat little circular disc is formed by the wings of the cutter.

Peter

Hi Peter, I think Dusty is saying that on the initial cut, the bit is cutting a laminate disc, and will not cut any further/deeper until the disc is removed. He cannot clear the disc without removing the jig though.

Unless I’m mistaken?

JJ

That's correct yes. It's a little disc of laminate which stops me cutting into the mdf.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: ben_r_ on September 03, 2019, 06:53 PM
What is the size of the shaft for the 20mm cutter bit? Thinking of ordering a better stop collar for it, stainless or hardened steel or something, and need to know what size to get.
Title: Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
Post by: TSO Products on September 03, 2019, 07:48 PM
What is the size of the shaft for the 20mm cutter bit? Thinking of ordering a better stop collar for it, stainless or hardened steel or something, and need to know what size to get.

@ben_r_   - until AXMINSTER replaced the (less than optimal) collar and screw TSO added a 10mm,  Stainless Clamping Collar to all Parf Guides we sold. We still have a few of those left - also in Steel. Email your last TSO order number and we'll send one at no charge to that address,

Hans