Author Topic: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker  (Read 5519 times)

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Offline jussi

  • Posts: 304
MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« on: August 06, 2019, 10:24 AM »
Which would you guys recommend and why?

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Offline Roseland

  • Posts: 650
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2019, 11:04 AM »
https://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-technology-parf-guide-system-mkii-104779

In the interest of full disclosure, I don't have one, but I've seen it used and I imagine it is the most accurate.

Andrew
TS55, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, CT26, RS100, ETS125, CXS, MFS400, DF-500, Zobos.

Offline Rta108

  • Posts: 23
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2019, 11:52 AM »
Huge thread a few topics down about the parf mk2.


Offline Doug S

  • Posts: 488
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2019, 01:52 PM »

Offline ChiknNutz

  • Posts: 85
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2019, 02:07 PM »
The UJK offering is spendy, but is impressively accurate.  I am currently using it to build a custom MFT of my own.  I suggest getting it from Axminster directly as I wasn't paying attention and paid $55 excess to TSO over what Axminster offers it for.
-Chris
Rotex 150/5 FEQ, CT 36 E, ETS EC125/3, TS75, Domino XL

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 516
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2019, 02:18 PM »
Another vote for the LR 32. I’m in the same boat. Assuming you have a OF 1010/1400.

I think the other options are pretty expensive to drill just the pattern. The LR 32 is more versatile. And if you already have a normal rail, then you can use the LR 32 rails to extend. Which might come handy if you need to tackle some sheets.

I think LR 32 has proven its accuracy, and can accommodate you with the hole pattern.


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Offline JimD

  • Posts: 448
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2019, 09:26 AM »
I'm happy with the results I got from the Woodrave router base and some pegboard.  My 3x7 foot outfeed/work table has 20mm holes on 4 inch spacing from using this setup with one of my old PC 690 routers in it's plunge base.  I also have a smaller version on a work surface on my cross cut bench.  I set up blocks to be used for assembly that have pegs going into the holes to establish a square corner.  I questioned if the holes made this way would be accurate enough but they are as square as any tool I have in my shop.  Drafting square, engineers square, etc..  4 inches is not 96mm but that doesn't matter to me.  Consistent spacing was what I wanted and I got that.  I can see some variation over the 8 foot length of the pegboard but it is apparently slight enough to not matter as a practical matter.  It is wood I work with. 

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1092
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2019, 01:10 PM »
Speaking as I find. I have a Parf Guide System Mk2. It produces tops and cutting stations for me that are as accurate you'd ever need.
I don't know how it compares with other systems and methods, as I've not used them but, I like the PGS, it's a keeper.

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 544
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2019, 02:21 PM »
Another option is have the top(s) CNC'd with a router. I have the UJK kit but I wanted a 4'x8' work table that I could break down easily so I cut a sheet of MDF into three 32" x 48" slabs. I happened to find a sign shop less than 1/2 mile from my house and they milled the slabs to my design for just over $50 a piece. Reviewing many designs on-line I included many slots that would fit my parallel jaw clamps and make it easy to carry.

One mistake I made was bought several bench dogs thinking I'd use them all the time to index my work. Ends up a TSO square and their parallel guides are much easier to use (for me). I seldom use the dogs and dog holes for work alignment. I also, place inexpensive 1/8" ply on the table at my cut line so as not to cut into the table in many random spots/angles.

Mike 

Offline Dane

  • Posts: 390
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2019, 03:21 PM »
Another vote for the Woodrave jig.  Perfectly square holes on al the tops I’ve done with it.  Think I posted some photos on another thread a while back.  It’s by far the cheapest and easiest to crank out a top...only trick is finding some high quality pegboard.

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 1304
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2019, 06:18 PM »
Neither. After I did my research I found the Parf Guide System Mark 2 directly from Axminster to be the best deal and option.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline xedos

  • Posts: 335
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2019, 08:47 PM »
Hands down, the Dominofix.  Woodpeckers is just to much trouble to use.  You have to plunge and circle the hole at the same time. And then the holes are as accurate or consistent in diameter.

Dominofix and similar jigs like Trend's are dead simple to get up and cutting holes in about 2 minutes.

All the jigs a kinda "expensive" to just drill a pattern.  The Parf version 2 was having some manuf. issues and turning out measuring sticks that didn't align.  Probably corrected by now , but if you get one of them it's going to be a real pain.  And while it's more versatile than two you're asking about; it is more complicated to set up and takes a lot longer to produce a top once you do.

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 920
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2019, 03:06 AM »
I use the Dominofix. I love it and have used it a ton. If you do you part it works amazingly well.

Offline Ptk16

  • Posts: 43
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2019, 07:37 PM »
Much simpler to just have one cnc cut...

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1761
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2019, 12:47 PM »
For me, it isn't the money, but the time that I would need to spend on making just one sheet, regardless of which drilling jig is used. If I ever need a clean, new sheet. I'd go with the CNC route, or get it from Festool if no local shops can do it.

How many sheets would you destroy from regular use as an average hobbyist? If you're a business, wouldn't you get a better deal with the tax deduction from a purchase?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 12:53 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2088
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2019, 01:09 PM »
For me, it isn't the money, but the time that I would need to spend on making just one sheet, regardless of which drilling jig is used. If I ever need a clean, new sheet. I'd go with the CNC route, or get it from Festool if no local shops can do it.
To each his own.
Outsourcing to CNC also involves time, just not that obvious: find the shop, communicate what needs to be done, bring material, wait for order completion, go pick it up. For some people just to get to the CNC shop could be an hour drive one way.
With a jig you can make your sheet at 11 pm on Saturday when in a pinch.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1761
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2019, 01:59 PM »
True that finding a CNC shop may not be that easy, depending on where you are located. But once found, you can get as many sheets as you want from then on -- with no sweat (the Google says there are more than a dozen CNC shops/service providers in my city). I have come across posts in which people reported that self-made MFT sheets varied in their accuracy as there is probably a learning curve with the jig.

 
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 02:03 PM by ChuckM »

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 920
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2019, 02:00 PM »
I have CNC and it is not the end all. Lots of it. "commercial grade" Being that I do R&D work. I have lots of it. From the Shaper Origin, to 4 ton 5x10 router, cnc lathes and mills..... Not including all the manual machines. I bring this up for the simple reason that as the saying goes if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

These manual solutions are perfect for what they excel at. I use the Dominofix all the time. If I want to put a patern on a jig or something on the fly, it literally takes minutes. I can make the required pattern with no down time. I can place it how ever I want in what ever orientation I wish. Do I spool up the big CNC, sure when it is the right tool. It quite literally can do a MFT table in about 15 minutes using the Dominofix.  I look at in a matter of choice. Choices are good. There are festoolians in my are of Los Angeles that I pump out tables from time to time. more for the social aspect of talking to guys in my area than making money on it. which I do not.

I would look at it as an "and" not an either or. The dominofix is relativity  inexpensive and having the option is worth it. 

Offline Hollatime

  • Posts: 19
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2020, 12:57 AM »
I know there’s a larger thread regarding MFT jigs, but  this is the first one I found and I am using a dominofix to boot.

Has there been a consensus on a bit aside from the Festool bit? I am getting a lot of play from the bench dogs, and some won’t even secure when using a bolt/star knob underneath. I feel like I’ve read every post about MFT drilling and the Festool bit seems to be the recommended one, but have also seen people mentioning having issues with the holes allowing for too much play.

My setup:
Dominiofix
Of1010
Festool 30mm copy ring
Festool 8mm shank/20mm boring bit
Festool centering mandrel

Figured keeping everything Festool would yield largest chance of success. I have an OEM MFT top, a CNCd top, and a top I’ve been drilling with the above setup.

Even while pretty destroyed, all dogs I have fit fairly good in the OEM top, and secure rock solid when using a star knob underneath. Go figure haha.

The CNC top is similar to the top I have drilled with the dominofix:

All dogs have play when inserted.
Parf dogs will secure when using a star knob
TSO stubby and short dogs have play even when using TSO knobs
TSO dog fence (gs-10?) will be fairly snug if you use a knob under the table and above as well.

Add in with the dominofix, I have play with the template using the dogs that came with it. I tried using the foil tape to shim them, but it still had play after 1 wrap, and 2 wraps was tight enough to mangle the tape after moving it a few times. I have since switched to using parf dogs and speed knobs to index the jig.

At this point I would assume either something is wrong with my router (going to see how to measure runout etc after I post this) or just the way it is using the Festool setup. I am fairly certain the copy ring is bang on center, I only push directly down on the 1010 which has super relaxed plunge motion so don’t believe I am stressing laterally to cause errors. I clean the bushing of MFT dust every few rows to make sure it’s not shimming the router base inadvertently...feels like I’m doing everything right, but know the amount of play the dogs have isn’t right.

Sans discovering some runout issue with the router or having overlooked the right bit to use, options aside from just returning it and buying parf system?


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Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7378
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2020, 10:57 AM »
Even while pretty destroyed, all dogs I have fit fairly good in the OEM top, and secure rock solid when using a star knob underneath.

The CNC top is similar to the top I have drilled with the dominofix:

I'd start by identifying, marking and then measuring 4 of the "good fit holes" in the OEM top with an accurate caliper. Make sure you measure the diameter in at least 3-4 places so you can catch any out-of-roundness that may exist. Take your time, measure carefully and write the dimensions down on paper.

I'd then move to the Dominofix top and do the same thing.

Compare the diameter dimensions between the holes on the 2 different tops. Is it generally a sizing difference between holes or is it a difference in out-of-roundness?

I've used the Festool 20 mm cutter in both a 1010 & a 1400 and I've had great results. Actually, surprisingly good results. There should be no out-of-roundness condition when using the Festool 491072 cutter.

I'd then mount the Festool cutter in a drill press, turn it up to max RPM and drill 4 nice clean holes in the material you're using for the Dominofix top.

Check the fit of the dogs in the new holes. Better fit? The same fit? Again, measure the new holes carefully and compare the values with the previous Dominofix top and try to spot and understand any anomalies that may arise.

This will be a good start in allowing you to see where any problem areas may be.

FWIW...I know the 1010 when set up exactly as you've mentioned will produce uniform holes that are concentric with the copy ring when centered with the mandrel.

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 920
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2020, 12:49 AM »
I have been using it for quite some time. I have been getting treat results and I am an accuracy nut. I use the festool bit they sell for making tables. it works perfect and creates a tight tolerance hole. I use the 1400 and the snap ring. No problems and I have made tones of templates and tables.

Offline Bernmc

  • Posts: 61
Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2020, 05:26 AM »

All dogs have play when inserted.
Parf dogs will secure when using a star knob
TSO stubby and short dogs have play even when using TSO knobs
TSO dog fence (gs-10?) will be fairly snug if you use a knob under the table and above as well.

This is the issue with the router-based systems. The router bit produces a hole slightly too large, so unless you have a dog that expands (UJK super dogs) or has an under-table knob that is very tight, the dogs will move around in the hole. If you're just using the table for holding and clamping, I expect it doesn't matter too much. If you're using it for accurate layout or cutting, it has to introduce error.

The UJK kit produces holes that are very tight - sometimes too tight until they've had a bit of use. I'd like to come up with a way to hold the bit in a router as it's quite a long and tedious task to drill a big table, but it's tight as a camel's 4rse in a sandstorm, and extremely accurate when done.

Offline TSO_Products

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Re: MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2020, 01:57 PM »
Quote Reply # 19 from @ Hollatime:
"All dogs have play when inserted.
Parf dogs will secure when using a star knob
TSO stubby and short dogs have play even when using TSO knobs
TSO dog fence (gs-10?) will be fairly snug if you use a knob under the table and above as well".


Since the above was posted @Hollatime has been in touch with TSO.

The post Mike made did not specify which TSO Dogs he was using. It turns out Mike is using TSO's "standard" Dogs. These are intentionally dimensioned to provide some clearance when using 20mm worktops which are not necessarily accurate  in all hole sizes and hole pattern dimensions. We have observed enough variations in worktop- as well as MFT/3-hole patterns that we realized that very precise clearance Dogs would not be that user friendly in practice.

For many operations it is sufficient that the Dogs prevent the workpiece from moving an appreciable amount. In that situation nothing is gained by a Dog-to-20mm hole fit which is so close that you need push the DOG into the hole and use force from below to remove it.

But when you're using Dogs to position a critical layout in a precise hole pattern top, then TSO's CF-Dogs are the answer. UJK Parf Super Dogs have the same target dimensions and tolerances as our CF-Dogs. Both intende to be used with accurately made hole diameters and hole patterns - as in using the Parf Guide System or corrrectly CNC machined  tops.

Our dimensions and tolerances are chosen intentionally for specific applications. Customer purchase history indicates there is sustained interest in both versions.

Let us know how we can improve getting this message and the choice it represents in front of woodworkers.

As Segde at Festool would say : "...hope that helps [wink]"

Hans

Offline Hollatime

  • Posts: 19
MFT jig - Dominofix or Woodpecker
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2020, 03:41 AM »
Quote Reply # 19 from @ Hollatime:
"All dogs have play when inserted.
Parf dogs will secure when using a star knob
TSO stubby and short dogs have play even when using TSO knobs
TSO dog fence (gs-10?) will be fairly snug if you use a knob under the table and above as well".


Since the above was posted @Hollatime has been in touch with TSO.

The post Mike made did not specify which TSO Dogs he was using. It turns out Mike is using TSO's "standard" Dogs. These are intentionally dimensioned to provide some clearance when using 20mm worktops which are not necessarily accurate  in all hole sizes and hole pattern dimensions. We have observed enough variations in worktop- as well as MFT/3-hole patterns that we realized that very precise clearance Dogs would not be that user friendly in practice.

For many operations it is sufficient that the Dogs prevent the workpiece from moving an appreciable amount. In that situation nothing is gained by a Dog-to-20mm hole fit which is so close that you need push the DOG into the hole and use force from below to remove it.

But when you're using Dogs to position a critical layout in a precise hole pattern top, then TSO's CF-Dogs are the answer. UJK Parf Super Dogs have the same target dimensions and tolerances as our CF-Dogs. Both intende to be used with accurately made hole diameters and hole patterns - as in using the Parf Guide System or corrrectly CNC machined  tops.

Our dimensions and tolerances are chosen intentionally for specific applications. Customer purchase history indicates there is sustained interest in both versions.

Let us know how we can improve getting this message and the choice it represents in front of woodworkers.

As Segde at Festool would say : "...hope that helps [wink]"

Hans
This irks me. Maybe due to extreme work schedule as this was right as the whole pandemic thing really took off, but not what I was expecting when the first contact seemed way above average CS with offering to personally call me.

Thanks for taking the time to let me know, on a public forum of course, that I simply purchased the wrong product. You could have at least emailed me that you had responded here for the shill opportunity or touched on any of the advice I sought from a presumed expert on dogholes.

I could swear when I purchased the stubby dogs there was no close fit variant, but assume you know your products better than my memory. I will keep them near for when I need a non repeatable, kinda close to 90 degree cut.

Fairly obvious by my overall ignorance I’m a hobbyist on my very best of days, even mentioned I did not believe it was an issue with your manufacturing but my own abilities. I buy high end tools because I need every advantage I can get, not to increase my efficiency/bottom line, and the cost is negligible to me.

I guess I expected or perhaps hoped for a response such as Cheese’s. Thanks by the way Cheese, those were some really good ideas. Due to my lack of time/patience to fully diagnose where I was goofing, I just purchased the parf guide mk2.

I broke down and bought the parallel gx45-44rs or whatever square due to worrying about international shipping with Benchdogs new rail square. I managed to order and receive two orders from Axminster to the west coast, paid less for shipping,  while that grcfg32-21/ss is doing laps in Utah, another display of my ignorance.

I’ve tried to convince myself for near months to buy your parallel guide set, but just annoyed with not only paying a significantly higher price than competitors offerings, but also the gimmick of either having to buy TWO copyrighted patented Canada’s national guide rail squares or the $80 PER adapters. I understand the whole “system” approach, Festool shining example of the profitability but seems entirely ridiculous.

I’ve watched ThePopularShop’s videos numerous times as I really enjoy the content and he explains thoroughly enough for a stone idiot such as myself to understand. In his parallel guides video, the secondary Canada’s only true guide rail square isn’t even used, it’s just $160 of military fighter jet blue aluminum sitting there.

My wife bought me the illegal, fake, unoriginal ToolNut offering since she isn’t subscribed to the tso insider newsletter and that’s the site she ended up on. Again, the whole add on $300 of rail squares to a product already significantly higher than other offerings was a huge deterrent. I purchased one of yours because the ToolNut one pulls out of square when latching for  whatever reason, and it’s annoying to hold it to a straight edge every time to make sure it’s engaged properly (also seems to tip but think may be design actually)

I thought about making a thread getting more opinions on them, but didn’t want to seem like I was just butthurt and slamming TSO. Maybe there are worthy benefits, I’m again a hobbyist on my best of days and fairly self aware of that.

I may still buy them, I want them,  but certainly after this and principle of just either buying $160 in adapters or 300+ in rail squares (one seemingly useless) I hope I don’t. I may get excommunicated and not have the opportunity. Really wish there were rail squares/guides for Mafell’s rails. If anything another great opportunity for you to promote.

Thanks again!

 Update: I received my milspec stubby dogs just now, and I must say they fit marvelously into a hole drilled with Peter Parfitt's UJK Parf MK II Guide System from Axminster Tools & Machinery product code: 104779. I don't even believe I would need to use one of my Lee Valley Tools Ltd. Clamping Knob for 20mm Posts, item: 50F0105. Credit where credit is due, virtually no play yet fairly effortless to insert/remove.

It fits horrendously in the holes I drilled with my Taiga Tools MFT Router Template MK1, SKU 300000. This would lead me to believe something is just off with the router. I was fairly meticulous with the setup and have tried multiple times, all Festool etc.

I guess as Sedge would say..."Get fkd. Send it in for service or buy a new one!"


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« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 06:49 PM by Hollatime »