Author Topic: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone  (Read 5739 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sandy

  • Posts: 100
FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« on: January 18, 2019, 04:09 AM »
While it is clear that the addition of a preseparator can significantly extend the life of the vacuum bags, the existing options all had problems that I believe I have now solved.  While I have, and like, Dust Deputy cyclones, the ones that I have in my shop are unwieldy as are the ones that I have seen mounted to the tops of Festool Dust Extractors.  This is particularly true of those that are mounted on top of the Festool Dust Extractor.  The Oneida design, which is adapted to be mounted on top of the Festool Dust Extractor is extremely tall, as are the DIY versions that I have seen.  Further, at $299 each, Oneida's Ultimate Dust Deputy Kit ( https://www.oneida-air.com/dust-deputy/ultimate-dust-deputy-cyclone-kit-festool-vacs ) is by no means inexpensive.

Since its introduction, I have noted a great deal of interest in the newly introduced Festool CT Cyclone CT-VA-20 ( https://www.festoolusa.com/products/dust-extraction/pre-separator/204083---ct-va-20 ).  However, there is no question that $375 is a bit more than most hobbyists, and even many professionals, are eager to spend on a preseparator, even one that carries the Festool name.

I recently became aware of a relatively new product called a Dustopper ( http://dustopper.com ).  The Dustopper is a "Thien-type" baffle that is sold at Home Depot and is ready, out-of-the-box, to be mounted on a Home Depot "Homer" 5-gallon bucket.  The Dustopper carries a list price of only $39.97 ( https://www.homedepot.com/p/Dustopper-High-Efficiency-Dust-Separator-12-in-dia-with-2-5-in-hose-36-in-long-HD12/302643445 ).  Problems that have been reported by users include the unit's failure to adequately seal to "standard" 5-gallon buckets, although Home Depot's response has been that their "Homer" buckets are made to much higher tolerances than typically available 5-gallon buckets, whereby the sealing issue is not present when an actual "Homer" bucket is used.  Another problem that has been reported is that the clips that attach it to the bucket are prone to break if the Dustopper is repeatedly attached to, and removed from, the "Homer" bucket.

It occurred to me that I could build a plywood box that has a bottom configured to fit the top of my CT 22 E and CT 26 E Festool Dust Extractors so that it would lock onto the top of the Extractor, just like the Oneida and Festool designs do.  However, when I initially attempted to modify a Homer bucket to be fitted to such a box I learned that the diameter of the bucket (about 285 mm) is extremely close to the width (295 mm) needed to fit the top of the box, whereby once the circular opening was cut into the top it would provide no support for the bucket.  Nevertheless, after several design iterations, I discovered a way to modify a Homer bucket to fit and connect to the top of the dust collection box, to make the device airtight, and to have the collection box's top removable to empty the collected sawdust, whereby it would not be necessary to remove the Dustopper from the top of the collection box in order to empty the sawdust, thereby eliminating the clip breakage issue.

In making the various modifications, I also discovered that I could modify the Homer bucket in two different ways.  In the first, I retained the portion of the bucket that includes the handle.  While this results in a somewhat taller unit, it does provide the user with a convenient handle to move the Extractor with the Festopper attached.  In the second version I eliminated the handle portion of the bucket, resulting in a lower overall height, which could be a benefit to those wishing to be able to place their Extractor under their MFT/3 table.  In either case, the overall height of the collection box can be modified so as to minimize the height of the Festopper or, alternatively, to increase the capacity of its collection box.  The cost of the Festopper, including the purchase of the Dustopper, the Homer bucket, and various other items was about $60.

If there is interest in the design, and the various "tricks" needed to connect the modified Homer bucket to the collection box, I would consider making a set of plans and instructions available.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 09:23 PM by sandy »

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline box185

  • Posts: 79
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2019, 04:50 AM »
Thank you for sharing!

That is a nice looking design, well done. I am interested in learning more about your approach.

Paul

Offline PaulH99

  • Posts: 123
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2019, 05:12 AM »
I would really enjoy seeing your plans or reading more about how you made this. Your "festopper" looks absolutely brilliant!
-Paul
CT 26 • DF 500 • ETS 125 • KS 120 • OF 1400 • PS 420 • RO 125 • TS 55 R

Offline RDMuller

  • Posts: 314
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2019, 07:47 AM »
Thank you for sharing.  Here is an idea -- put in a narrow vertical plexiglass window to see how full it is getting. I have several Festool vacs and some other brands. Oops --must be full when it quits working!  Right when someone is in the middle of something.

Offline ghjaxman

  • Posts: 117
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2019, 08:41 AM »
I would also be interested in your plans.  Look like it would be great for my router table.

Offline box185

  • Posts: 79
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2019, 09:18 AM »
There is a thread discussing the Dustopper over at the Sawmill Creek website.

A few posts from the inventor too.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?266218-Dustopper-!

Offline tdwilli1

  • Posts: 42
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2019, 09:33 AM »
Count me in on wanting the plans.

Tim

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1746
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2019, 10:01 AM »
There is a thread discussing the Dustopper over at the Sawmill Creek website.

A few posts from the inventor too.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?266218-Dustopper-!

Good read!  "9/26/2018 - A larger version is planned - soon!"

Hmmm...
-Raj

Offline Mortiser

  • Posts: 43
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2019, 09:02 PM »
@sandy , very interesting design. I too would be interested in the plans.
Thanks.
Rich

Offline George Oliver

  • Posts: 38
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2019, 01:47 AM »
Well done sandy, fit and finish look great.

Offline Weens1

  • Posts: 14
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2019, 09:26 AM »
I would love to see some plans? Have anything you could share? Even some more detailed pics of the build would help. Thanks!

Offline sandy

  • Posts: 100
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2019, 09:45 AM »
Firstly, thank you all for the kind comments.

In answer to some of the questions that I have seen raised, I have in mind a way to make it possible to stack additional Systainers above the FESTOPPER if that is something that others want.  Also, while others have mentioned the capacity of the FESTOPPER or the "advantage" of Festool's Cyclone with regard to having multiple bins, so that they can be emptied off site, please note that it is possible to make (quite cheaply) multiple collection bins for the FESTOPPER, and that they can, when filled, be sealed by a simple top with a handle to make them easy to carry.

Sandy
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 04:50 PM by SRSemenza »

Offline sandy

  • Posts: 100
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2019, 10:57 AM »
As I have been advised by the administrators that I should not use the FOG for distributing plans, anyone who wants information regarding the plans should email me at sandy@asman.com with the Subject "FESTOPPER" and your email address.  Please do not reply here, and please do not send me a message on the FOG.

Sandy
sandy@asman.com

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 340
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2019, 11:11 AM »
There is a thread discussing the Dustopper over at the Sawmill Creek website.

A few posts from the inventor too.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?266218-Dustopper-!

This cyclone design is almost identical to the one Thien designed "Thien Baffle." Wonder what's going on here.

Offline sandy

  • Posts: 100
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2019, 11:37 AM »
@Mike Goetzke

First, I did not design the Dustopper unit that I use in making the FESTOPPER.  The Dustopper is sold by The Home Depot, with whom I have no connection (other than as a customer).  Nor do I have any connection with the company that produces the Dustopper. All I claim to have done is to come up with a design for a "collection box" that can be connected, like a Systainer, to the top of a Festool Dust Extractor with a removable top that integrates the Dustopper.

Next, and meaning no disrespect, whatsoever to Phil Thien (whose name is actually J. Philip Thien), who singularly researched, published, and popularized the so-called "Thien Baffle", here (as Paul Harvey used to say) is "the rest of the story".  On November 23, 2009 Mr. Thien filed U.S. Patent Application, Ser. No. 12/624022 entitled "DUST SEPARATOR" seeking a U.S. patent on his design.  The file history ("Image File Wrapper") was published as Publication No. 20100132317 on June 3, 2010, and it is publicly available at the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office website ( http://uspto.gov ).  In any event, the Patent Examiner rejected Mr. Thien's application based on the disclosures of two earlier patents, namely, Nos. 6,251,296 and 6,767,380.  Following that rejection, Mr. Thien abandoned his application without further amendment or argument.

Also, for what it's worth, I have seen prior art that discloses the same baffle design that Festool now uses in its CT Cyclone.

Sandy
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 09:26 PM by sandy »

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 340
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2019, 01:53 PM »
@sandy

@Mike Goetzke

First, I did not design the Dustopper unit that I use in making the FESTOPPER.  The Dustopper is sold by The Home Depot, with whom I have no connection (other than as a customer).  Nor do I have any connection with the company that produces the Dustopper. All I claim to have done is to come up with a design for a "collection box" that can be connected, like a Systainer, to the top of a Festool Dust Extractor with a removable top that integrates the Dustopper.

Next, and meaning no disrespect, whatsoever to Phil Thien (whose name is actually J. Philip Then), who singularly researched, published, and popularized the so-called "Thien Baffle", here (as Paul Harvey used to say) is "the rest of the story".  On November 23, 2009 Mr. Thien filed U.S. Patent Application, Ser. No. 12/624022 entitled "DUST SEPARATOR" seeking a U.S. patent on his design.  The file history ("Image File Wrapper") was published as Publication No. 20100132317 on June 3, 2010, and it is publicly available at the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office website ( http://uspto.gov ).  In any event, the Patent Examiner rejected Mr. Thien's application based on the disclosures of two earlier patents, namely, Nos. 6,251,296 and 6,767,380.  Following that rejection, Mr. Thien abandoned his application without further amendment or argument.

Also, for what it's worth, I have seen prior art that discloses the same baffle design that Festool now uses in its CT Cyclone.

Sandy

Thien not Then - correct?

I work at a company that likes to protect their IP. Even though Phil (J. Philip) may not have protected his invention in my opinion he should be mentioned as at least a contributor to this design. When I saw this I said "WHAT - this is Phil's."

Mike

Offline TinyShop

  • Posts: 345
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2019, 02:16 PM »
Here's some of the backstory as it appears on the Thien forum.   
ETS 150/5 EQ (DE) [po], TS 75 EQ (DE) [po], OF 1400 EQ-F (DE) [n], CXS (DE) [n], CMS-GE [DE] [po], CMS TS 75 (DE) [n], LA-CS 50/CMS (DE) [po], VB-CMS (DE) [n], MFT/3 (CZ) [n], DF 700 EQ w/Seneca Small Mortise Kit (DE) [po], FEIN Multimaster 350 QSL (DE) [n], Bosch 1274DVS w/dust collection, sanding frame,  stand & fence (CH) [n], BOSCH 1590EVS w/dust collection (CH) [n], CS Unitec CS 1445 HEPA extractor <re-branded Starmix ISP 1435 H> (DE) [n], CT SYS (DE) [po], Milwaukee 0302-20 (US) [n], Two (2) Porter Cable 862 (TW) [n], Porter Cable 447 (US) [n], Zyliss Vise (CH) [n], Hitachi C 8FB (JP) [h]

[po] pre-owned   [n] new   [h] heirloom   (XX) country of origin

Offline TinyShop

  • Posts: 345
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2019, 04:33 PM »
Here's some of the backstory as it appears on the Thien forum.

This IP and patent saga seems to be as much a story about "open source" versus "proprietary" as it is about the morality (or lack thereof?) of Person "A" liberally making use of the updated concepts and designs of person "B" (as proudly displayed on their open source online forum) to build a finished product only to then contact person "B" and enquire if they might be willing to accept some crumbs (from the commodification of "Person B's" design) for their initial "contribution". It's conceivable to say that if the Thien forum didn't exist (and, therefore, if Thien had never otherwise made his efforts public) that the Dustopper would never have come into being. Some might naturally wonder, then, how much of the same can be said for the creation of the Festool CT-VA 20? I would answer that there's a BIG difference, which is that Festool's design departs from Thien's enough that one would never mistake Festool's for Thien's (or vice versa). But Thien's and Dustopper's? Oh yes.

As an aside, the appearance of the word "Cyclone" in the name of Festool's product (even though a cyclone it is not) might be a deliberate effort to move the needle even further away from any mistaken notion that their product is a Thien baffle. Just guessing here.

Which also has me thinking about how much the "Festopper" steals from Festool's CT-VA design and whether it is OK that sandy wants to profit from his cobbled together version of their unique take on "the baffle"? Festool saw fit to unlock this thread so I guess this answers the question. Admittedly, I could care less since I plan to build my own systainer'ized Dustopper creation and to thereafter post my efforts on the FOG, taking extra care to disclose all of the parts I used in its construction and a quick "how-to" so that others can freely benefit. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I don't see the need to pay to acquire what is common sense and I also don't think anyone else should have to either.

Then there's the accompanying issue of the Dustopper guy having actually applied for a patent. Does this single action show how he was never really interested in a true partnership with Thien? Who knows. But, I'm most baffled why, when your plan is to patent someone else's work, that you would send them written correspondence in advance in which you divulge that their work is the basis for your idea. That doesn't seem real smart. Who knows, maybe the guy had a twinge of conscience. Too bad the whole project was morally and ethically deficient from the get go. But, hey, that's capitalism, right?!
ETS 150/5 EQ (DE) [po], TS 75 EQ (DE) [po], OF 1400 EQ-F (DE) [n], CXS (DE) [n], CMS-GE [DE] [po], CMS TS 75 (DE) [n], LA-CS 50/CMS (DE) [po], VB-CMS (DE) [n], MFT/3 (CZ) [n], DF 700 EQ w/Seneca Small Mortise Kit (DE) [po], FEIN Multimaster 350 QSL (DE) [n], Bosch 1274DVS w/dust collection, sanding frame,  stand & fence (CH) [n], BOSCH 1590EVS w/dust collection (CH) [n], CS Unitec CS 1445 HEPA extractor <re-branded Starmix ISP 1435 H> (DE) [n], CT SYS (DE) [po], Milwaukee 0302-20 (US) [n], Two (2) Porter Cable 862 (TW) [n], Porter Cable 447 (US) [n], Zyliss Vise (CH) [n], Hitachi C 8FB (JP) [h]

[po] pre-owned   [n] new   [h] heirloom   (XX) country of origin

Offline sandy

  • Posts: 100
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2019, 06:37 PM »
@TinyShop

First of all, I have been a Registered Patent Attorney for almost 50 years.  As a Patent Attorney I have prosecuted approximately 500 patent applications before the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, and I have litigated scores of IP cases in about a dozen U.S. District Courts.  I have also handled many, many IP licensing and transactional matters, whereby I know that I am qualified to speak as an expert on IP matters.  I am not sure, though, what (if any) qualifications you may have in that regard.

With regard to your comment about, "... how much the Festopper steals from Festool's CT-VA design..." the answer is zero.  Had you actually read what I wrote, you will note that I do not claim that I did anything other than design and implement a "collection box" that has a bottom that locks onto a Festool Dust Collector, and a top that interfaces with the commercially available Dustopper device sold by The Home Depot.  Can you design something that will do the same?  Frankly, I don't know, but feel free to do so, as I am sure that when you attempt to do so you will have a far greater understanding and appreciation for the fact that it was not a trivial exercise.  I am also quite certain that the design of the FESTOPPER is such that, at $60 in parts, it accomplishes pretty much the same result that the $300 Oneida and the $375 Festool versions accomplish at a cost that is far more palatable to hobbyist (as well as many professional) woodworkers.  By the way, as shown in the attached photo, the FESTOPPER can be placed under an MFT/3 table, something that the Oneida unit cannot do.

Regarding the design used in Festool's CT-VA, as I said in my earlier post, it is different from the design promoted by Phil Thien, as well as from the Dustopper design, but it, too, is virtually identical to prior designs that I have seen.  Again, I am speaking from the perspective of one who has actually seen the inside of the CT-VA, something that you, clearly, have not done, or you would realize that the CT-VA uses a disk at the bottom of a tube that has a rectangular opening which is keyed to be oriented at a particular angle from its input.  Neither Phil Thien's version, nor the Dustopper, have anything similar.

As far as the use of the word "cyclone" is concerned, you should be aware that that term came from meteorology, rather than woodworking.  As such it refers to the rotation of the airflow, rather than the means that created the rotation, whereby those who think that a "cyclone" separator requires a conical device, such as the Dust Deputy, are simply incorrect, by definition.  Consequently, all of the devices that use rotational air flow to separate sawdust, etc. are "cyclone separators".

Sandy



Offline Vondawg

  • Posts: 285
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2019, 06:47 PM »
All very interesting reading thanks !
There are no mistakes....just new designs.

Offline box185

  • Posts: 79
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2019, 06:57 PM »
I like what you did, Sandy. You took a commercially available dust separator, and rather than attaching it to a five gallon bucket, you attached it to a well planned and well built dust collection box that can be easily attached to a Festool product. WELL DONE !

Offline sandy

  • Posts: 100
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2019, 09:28 PM »
@Mike Goetzke

Whoops on the misspelling of Mr. Thien's name.  I have now corrected it in my post.

Sandy

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 340
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2019, 10:23 PM »
@Mike Goetzke

Whoops on the misspelling of Mr. Thien's name.  I have now corrected it in my post.

Sandy

@sandy - spellchecker must have gotten you - should see some of the texts I write on my phone.

Offline TinyShop

  • Posts: 345
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2019, 01:17 PM »
@TinyShop

My responses (in blue) to your various points (in black) follow:

"First of all, I have been a Registered Patent Attorney for almost 50 years.  As a Patent Attorney I have prosecuted approximately 500 patent applications before the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, and I have litigated scores of IP cases in about a dozen U.S. District Courts.  I have also handled many, many IP licensing and transactional matters, whereby I know that I am qualified to speak as an expert on IP matters.  I am not sure, though, what (if any) qualifications you may have in that regard."
 
Curious, I would have thought that, if anyone, a patent attorney would understand the importance of full disclosure and giving credit where credit is due. I merely picked up on Mr. Goetzke's clear frustration and then spent a few minutes trying to understand the source of same. Reading through the readily available thread that I linked to earlier, it doesn't take being a patent attorney (or a rocket scientist) to smell injustice and slimy behavior (as I and others would argue has been committed by the person behind the Dustopper).

"With regard to your comment about, "... how much the Festopper steals from Festool's CT-VA design..." the answer is zero.  Had you actually read what I wrote, you will note that I do not claim that I did anything other than design and implement a "collection box" that has a bottom that locks onto a Festool Dust Collector, and a top that interfaces with the commercially available Dustopper device sold by The Home Depot.  Can you design something that will do the same?  Frankly, I don't know, but feel free to do so, as I am sure that when you attempt to do so you will have a far greater understanding and appreciation for the fact that it was not a trivial exercise.  I am also quite certain that the design of the FESTOPPER is such that, at $60 in parts, it accomplishes pretty much the same result that the $300 Oneida and the $375 Festool versions accomplish at a cost that is far more palatable to hobbyist (as well as many professional) woodworkers.  By the way, as shown in the attached photo, the FESTOPPER can be placed under an MFT/3 table, something that the Oneida unit cannot do."

Words are one thing, actions are another. The concept behind your "Dustopper" (a low-profile baffle-type dust separator which is designed to nest onto a Festool dust extractor) is quite akin to Festool's new CT-VA...at least I think it is. The timing of your release is also curious, coming as it did some time after (and not before) the public release of the CT-VA. Regarding your design: you built it, you photographed it and then you posted it, essentially as an ad, on a forum that is supposed to honor a certain DIY ethos. Had you not offered from the get-go to sell your plans but instead only come around to the idea once multiple people requested them (which is how these types of interactions typically go), those of us who balked at your unpalatable approach would have been only too happy to support you. So, yes, you brought this push-back on yourself.   

Now, regarding your odd insinuation that I might not know my way around a hammer, let me respond by saying that I am perfectly confident in my abilities to accomplish the following seven (7) tasks which are required to construct a DIY systainer'ized "Thien/Dustopper/CT-VA/Festopper"-inspired dust separator:

     1. build an open-topped, seven-sided plywood box (with interior joints caulked for air-sealing);

     2. attach a set of 3D-printed systainer cleats (attributes, in part, to @Ben_ !) to the bottom and front of the aforementioned box (to allow simple locking attachment to the top of the vac via a T-Loc hose garage or already affixed T-Loc systainer or via a classic-style sys-plate of choice) [another image of the latter);

     3. cut an appropriately-sized hole in a piece of plywood (the latter to act as the lid of the box) in which to accept the Dustopper product as an insert;

     4. caulk the latter into the former;

     5. drill eight holes and use four threaded inserts and four star knobs (I'll probably make my own) to fasten the lid to the top of the box (or utilize some other method of easy-on/easy-off attachment) but not before adding a strip of foam to the edges of the box's open side (to act as an air-sealing gasket between the lid and the box);

    6. gather together the appropriate hose fittings (in my case to go from the 57mm friction-fit vac-end on my 35mm hose to the inlet on the Dustopper - no additional fitting necessary - and then from the male vac-end of the Dustopper supplied hose to the 58mm inlet on my Starmix extractor - accomplished with one "Shop-Vac 1-Piece Right-angle Brush" [Lowes # 215752 Model # 9067911] with the brush removed) (even cheaper tax-free source); and

    7. hook everything together.

Total cost? I expect around US$60-70 (assuming scrap plywood and DIY star knobs).

Heck, if I feel like it, I may even offset the position of the Dustopper in the lid (to get the inlet flush with the edge of same) and then partially or fully enclose the Dustopper in it's own plywood box (if fully enclosed, adding penetrations for the inlet and the outlet hose) and then fasten a set of these 3-D printed fittings to the lid (along with one of these custom latches) or perhaps instead employ a modified version of this (with the undersides of the back penetrations relieved to allow the dove tail rear systainer feet to slot into place (and, again, this locking latch or a shop-built equivalent) to allow the fitting/stacking of systainers up above.

         
"Regarding the design used in Festool's CT-VA, as I said in my earlier post, it is different from the design promoted by Phil Thien, as well as from the Dustopper design, but it, too, is virtually identical to prior designs that I have seen.  Again, I am speaking from the perspective of one who has actually seen the inside of the CT-VA, something that you, clearly, have not done, or you would realize that the CT-VA uses a disk at the bottom of a tube that has a rectangular opening which is keyed to be oriented at a particular angle from its input.  Neither Phil Thien's version, nor the Dustopper, have anything similar."

That's funny, that's exactly what I meant when I said, "...that Festool's design departs from Thien's enough [emphasis added] that one would never mistake Festool's for Thien's (or vice versa)." Not sure how you took this mean that I think the CT-VA is the same as Thien's baffle. Moreover, one doesn't need to have the CT-VA in hand to understand the design of its baffle.

"As far as the use of the word "cyclone" is concerned, you should be aware that that term came from meteorology, rather than woodworking.  As such it refers to the rotation of the airflow, rather than the means that created the rotation, whereby those who think that a "cyclone" separator requires a conical device, such as the Dust Deputy, are simply incorrect, by definition.  Consequently, all of the devices that use rotational air flow to separate sawdust, etc. are "cyclone separators"."

Ok, now we're just splitting hairs. The context of all of this is that the word "cyclone" proliferates the woodworking dust separation world. However, when discussions focus in on comparisons between the Thien baffle and devices like the Dust Deputy (for instance), usually the word "cyclone" is reserved for the latter while "baffle" is reserved for the former (as a way to easily distinguish between the two). It's only natural, therefore, that a company marketing its own ultra-low-profile (and in that way "similar" to Thien's) dust separator would, out of an abundance of caution and perhaps also "respect", want to give a wide berth between its product and what most people know and refer to as a "baffle" (the term, at least up until now, that is commonly associated with Mr. Thien's design).

Now, to the point you try to make about what I may or may not know about dust separators and meteorology (in the case of the former, a little something given that I've been both a professional and amateur woodworker for decades and, in the case of the latter, also a little something given that I happen to be a former airline captain), only a poorly informed person/woodworker would think the word "cyclone", in the context of a dust separator, has any real meaning beyond that of a catchy marketing term. Again, it's all about context.

In closing, I appreciate your thoughts. I also really appreciated the act of putting together my response. Doing so proved to be a very fruitful exercise as I now have the parts list I need to construct my very own systainer'ized "Thien/Dustopper/CT-VA/Festopper"-inspired dust separator. All time well spent! :)
   
"Sandy"
 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 03:52 PM by TinyShop »
ETS 150/5 EQ (DE) [po], TS 75 EQ (DE) [po], OF 1400 EQ-F (DE) [n], CXS (DE) [n], CMS-GE [DE] [po], CMS TS 75 (DE) [n], LA-CS 50/CMS (DE) [po], VB-CMS (DE) [n], MFT/3 (CZ) [n], DF 700 EQ w/Seneca Small Mortise Kit (DE) [po], FEIN Multimaster 350 QSL (DE) [n], Bosch 1274DVS w/dust collection, sanding frame,  stand & fence (CH) [n], BOSCH 1590EVS w/dust collection (CH) [n], CS Unitec CS 1445 HEPA extractor <re-branded Starmix ISP 1435 H> (DE) [n], CT SYS (DE) [po], Milwaukee 0302-20 (US) [n], Two (2) Porter Cable 862 (TW) [n], Porter Cable 447 (US) [n], Zyliss Vise (CH) [n], Hitachi C 8FB (JP) [h]

[po] pre-owned   [n] new   [h] heirloom   (XX) country of origin

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8954
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2019, 01:35 PM »
Well this has become interesting .................................

     In any case the situation here ( on the forum ) is really simple. Festool made the call that the Festopper will be considered a competing product.  The item itself or the plans for such can not be sold on FOG or through FOG. Whether it actually is a competing product or not, whether there are patent situations involved or not, whether sandy can post them for free and or show his design, etc............   None of that really matters. Festool owns the FOG, in the end it is Festools call regardless.

Seth

Offline sandy

  • Posts: 100
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2019, 02:39 PM »
@SRSemenza

I understand, and appreciate, your position, whereby I have specifically requested that anyone interested in obtaining plans contact me outside of the FOG.

@TinyShop

First, I noted, with both respect and interest, that you are a former airline captain.  While I do not know where you are located, I am in Atlanta, where I keep a Diamond DA40 at PDK.  I have been flying since 1973.

Next, I appreciate that you are quite articulate.  That having been said, you have nonetheless made numerous assumptions which are simply inaccurate.  While you are absolutely entitled to your opinions, I think many on this, or any other, forum would value them more if you did not assume that your opinions are the equivalent of fact, and that, as such, you are free to defame others.

Regarding your (blue) responses, I can state the following:

Title 37 of the Code of Federal Regulations does require a duty of disclosure by an applicant for patent as well as by his/her legal representative, something that I take quite seriously.  Accordingly, I agree that full, and complete disclosure, of both one's claimed invention and the known prior art are required.  We have common ground in that respect.

On the other hand, it was presumptuous, and demonstrably inaccurate for you to (wrongly) assume, and then express as fact, that Mr. Huntley (the person behind the Dustopper) failed to advise the Patent Office of Mr. Thien's baffle.  Specifically, there was an Information Disclosure Statement (IDS) filed on May 30, 2017 in Mr. Huntley's patent application (Ser. No. 15/465,051 filed March 21, 2017) which specifically referenced Mr. Thien's patent application (Pub. No. 201100132317 published on June 3, 2010).  You may view all of the foregoing on the Patent Office website.

It was also presumptuous, and inaccurate, for you to have assumed that the timing of my creation of the Festopper had anything to do with Festooll's release of its CT-VA.  In fact, as stated in my original post, I only recently became aware of the Dustopper device, and I believed, as you appear to believe, that your "7 step" procedure would be reasonably trivial.  Again, your presumption is (as was mine) simply inaccurate, so after you follow your own steps, please report back with the actual result you obtained.  In fact, my initial approach was the same as yours ("Great minds think alike.").  Unfortunately, it took me several attempts before things actually worked out, but you, too, will learn that lesson when you follow your own procedure.

As far as 3D printed items go, I do not have a 3D printer, so I cannot comment on that aspect of your post, but, as far as enabling the attachment of additional Systainers above the Festopper goes, that is one of the things that I mentioned in an earlier post.  As a "heads up" to doing that, and to including a box around the Dustopper with hose entries like on the Festool CT-VA, I will alert you to the following issues.  First, due to the fact that the vacuum hose enters the top of the Dustopper, you will find that anything you do in that regard will increase the overall height of the unit to the extent that you will not be able to fit it under an MFT/3.  Of course, if your objective is to simply stack additional Systainers, then it probably would not, in any event, fit under an MFT/3.  Festool's CT-VA actually includes a hose having a uniquely shaped end portion to assist in maintaining a low profile, and the top of the Festool cyclone cylinder does not extend up, as does the top of the Dustopper.  Notably, in the "taller" version of the Festopper that is the subject of one of the photos in my original post, an advantage that can be gained, if you are not concerned about overall height, is that you can retain the portion of the "Homer" bucket that includes the handle, which actually makes it convenient to pull the Extractor around.

Next, regarding the "readily available thread" to which you linked, I am sure that you understand that it may be somewhat biased in that it is hosted/run by someone who has a vested interest in its content.  Also, regarding the various references to patent issues, both by you and on that other forum, I assure you that many of them are simply wrong.

Finally, as this is a public forum, I have tried to respond in a responsible, and civil, manner to your comments. While I do not wish to engage in a legal discussion here, if you are truly interested, please feel free to email me or PM me with your phone number, as I will be happy to spend time discussing patent law, flying, woodworking, or just shooting the breeze with a fellow woodworker/pilot.

Sandy

« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 02:47 PM by sandy »

Offline dupe

  • Posts: 81
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2019, 04:42 PM »
What steps have you taken to mitigate static build up following the hose inlet? Does your idea take into account concerns of static discharge to the *cpu?
MFT.1080    CT.Midi    DF.500    DTS.400    ETS.EC150/3    RO.150    RO.90    CXS 10.8

Offline sandy

  • Posts: 100
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2019, 05:50 PM »
While the so-called “issue” of static discharge has come up in the forum, in practice, based on my own extensive experience, and with scores of units in use (and actual uses measured in the several thousands, or more), there have been as many reports of static discharge damage as there have been authenticated sightings of the Loch Ness monster (Perhaps this relates to the construction of the DUSTOPPER.). While it may be theoretically possible for static discharge to adversely affect any electronic circuit that has not been properly designed and/or shielded that has simply not happened when the FESTOPPER has been used.  As Yogi Berra reportedly said, “In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.”

Sandy

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1834
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2019, 06:48 PM »
While the so-called “issue” of static discharge has come up in the forum, in practice, based on my own extensive experience, and with scores of units in use (and actual uses measured in the several thousands, or more), there have been as many reports of static discharge damage as there have been authenticated sightings of the Loch Ness monster (Perhaps this relates to the construction of the DUSTOPPER.).

The damage from static discharge has been well documented and acknowledged by both Festool and Oneida. It was enough of an issue to make them redesign their DustDeputy.

Offline sandy

  • Posts: 100
Re: FESTOPPER - an inexpensive Dust Extractor mounted cyclone
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2019, 07:17 PM »
@Svar
Quote
The damage from static discharge has been well documented and acknowledged by both Festool and Oneida. It was enough of an issue to make them redesign their DustDeputy.

I cannot speak to the issue that the Oneida Dust Deputy reportedly experienced, so perhaps you will be kind enough to direct me to the "well documented and acknowledged" statements by Festool and Oneida.  However, the DUSTOPPER sold by Home Depot has not, to my knowledge, been the subject of any issues, and that DUSTOPPER is what is used in the FESTOPPER, again, without a single reported problem.  I do not make or sell the DUSTOPPER, but I have used several to make FESTOPPER preseparators, and neither I nor any of those who built FESTOPPERS, or, for that matter, used DUSTOPPERs, have reported any static issue, so while your comments about the Dust Deputy may be accurate, what evidence do you have that there are any issues with the DUSTOPPER, whether or not used in a FESTOPPER?

For that matter, despite all of the various Thein-type and cyclone-type preseparators, many of which are described in this forum, I have not seen a single report of static damage.  On the other hand, you never know when the next reported sighting of Nessie will take place.

Sandy
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 07:23 PM by sandy »