Author Topic: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question  (Read 8436 times)

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Offline Rob Lee

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    • Lee Valley/Veritas
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2022, 11:25 AM »
Hi -

Here's ours - coming in a few weeks.

Price will be $300 USD or less. Table construction is Melamine clad Baltic Birch. Designed for the DF 500, and height selectable in precise fixed increments using aluminum shims. Variable angle square will be an option - 45/90 is standard.

Be glad to post more when ready for prime time....

Cheers -

Rob

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Offline smorgasbord

  • Posts: 54
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2022, 12:16 PM »
Looks like Woodpeckers has ripped off some of the ideas behind this jig, at the typical high Woodpeckers' pricing.

https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html


Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3485
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2022, 01:06 PM »
Looks like Woodpeckers has ripped off some of the ideas behind this jig, at the typical high Woodpeckers' pricing.

https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

I don't know how it works in the adoption and commercialization of ideas (which can't be copyrighted, I believe), but will people get discouraged from sharing their one-of-a-kind shop ideas (in this Forum or any public media) if they think commercial entities will use theirs without acknowledging their contributions? 
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 01:21 PM by ChuckS »

Online Rick Herrick

  • Posts: 722
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2022, 05:19 PM »

We have a modified version in pre-production right now - and ARE paying Ola royalties.  Will post info later today....

Cheers -

Rob
FWIW, I am really glad Ola is getting some attention on this.  Thank you for that.  His design was/is very cool.

Offline Capt'n 360

  • Posts: 20
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2022, 09:52 AM »
I am happy that Lee Valley is sharing royalty with Ola, that is how it should be.  Every time I see Lee Valley's name or buy one of their tools it will make me happy.  Every time I see WoodPeckers' name or the tools that I have purchased from them I will second guess my purchase.

Thank you Lee Valley, Thank you Ola.

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 406
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2022, 11:08 AM »
Let's not jump gun. I don't think the people in Strongsville are the type to just "rip-off" someone's ideas. Remember, they are on the receiving end of that stick all too often. They know how it feels. We just don't have enough information to make a well-founded judgement on that. Do we?  [scratch chin]

On the other hand: great big kudos to Lee Valley and Ola! It is great to see good ideas being picked up in a way that benefits everyone.  [thumbs up]

Offline ChuckS

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Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2022, 11:17 AM »
Two wrongs d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y  don't make a right.

Until we're proven wrong, we all know what we're seeing. We welcome any representative from Woodpeckers to join the discussion, don't we?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2022, 11:25 AM by ChuckS »

Offline Ola C

  • Posts: 31
    • Carmonius Finsnickeri
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2022, 02:11 PM »
Hello everyone, well what a drama...

I'm not as upset as many others are, based on the comments on woodpeckers youtube. Guess a feeling of pride dampens my negative reaction. I wrote a mail (still unanswered) to woodpecker yesterday saying they should have acknowledged me but that's about it. It's not about money for me, it's about claiming to have invented something that was invented by someone else. My level of reaction would have been pretty much identical if a random youtuber with 500 subs was claiming my idea. It's quite obvious woodpecker have seen my movies about the domino table. The overall idea and jig layout/design, the workflow with flipping the fence and the motivation to why this table is a big improvement for small parts is identical. The integrated fence flipper which I invented  "live" here on fog (see link below) a few days after the first movie was released is more or less a straight copy.

I have a feeling that woodpecker would have handled this different if I was one of the "big youtubers". Just a feeling though.

All credit to Veritas who have treated me very well.

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/domino-jig-for-smaller-parts/
« Last Edit: April 13, 2022, 03:06 PM by Ola C »

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 406
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2022, 02:27 PM »
Thanks for shedding a light on this Ola. Sadly, it confirms the suspicions some already had.

I have to admit I am a bit disappointed in Woodpeckers after reading this (well, more than a bit to be honest). As I wrote, they know how it feels if another just takes your idea and the effort it took to turn it into a usable tool. Therefore I wouldn't have expected them to treat you like this. Let's see if one of their representatives joins in and what they have to say about all this.

Hopefully this little storm will make them acknowledge you on their product page. Credit where credit's due.

And let me take this opportunity to thank you for being so generous to share some of your wonderful ideas with the rest of us.

Offline Dane

  • Posts: 439
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2022, 04:17 PM »
Ugh.  Well, at least no one has to feel guilt about buying the Chinese Woodpecker knock offs anymore

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1293
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2022, 04:18 PM »
Glad to hear Ola, kudos to you, and Veritas, and Lee Valley bringing it to the market.

I noticed your jig early on, and figured I’d have to build my own (probably a lot lesser than yours.. [embarassed]). But now there will be an option, and the very good impression of Lee Valley and Veritas I’ve had as a customer only manifests further.

“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline 4nthony

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    • Slack for Recon Tools
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2022, 02:42 PM »


From the video comments:

Quote
"We’ve recently received some criticism accusing us of stealing this product idea from a YouTube video. While we certainly saw the video in question while researching MortiseMatch, it was only one of the videos and articles we found. The earliest similar design we found was from 2001, 18 years earlier than the video that is being claimed to be the soul source of our inspiration.
Nothing in our marketing of MortiseMatch claimed this to be a completely unique idea. In fact, the second paragraph of the product release email specifically mentioned that we had reviewed several designs online and found them to be lacking certain features we found critically important, primarily the ability to adjust the height of the cut.
Here are just a few of the links to web pages we found while researching table mounting the Domino, all of which pre-date the Carmonius Finsnickeri video by almost 2 decades."

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2002/02/01/biscuit-master-review
https://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-plans/jigs/accurate-alignment-biscuit-joiner-jig
https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/26077
https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/thestationarybiscuitjoiner.aspx

Valid response and this whole topic reminds of a video series called "Everything is a Remix" which, if I remember correctly, was about how every current idea is based on an old idea and that there's isn't much "new" anymore. From movies and music, to design, architecture, and devices, most things are just rehashed versions of another thing that came before it.

The wheel has already been invented; it's just being continually refined. Even if someone arrives at an idea independently of outside influence, it doesn't mean the idea is unique or doesn't already exist.

« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 02:46 PM by 4nthony »
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Online Rick Herrick

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Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2022, 04:50 PM »
It bothers me that it looks so much like Ola's design but I can get over that if a few things happened, but so far I don't think they have (Ola, do you have a new car yet ?). 

I am not afraid to spend money on tools.  I have lots of blue, green and red tools.  I will pay for something I really want.  But really... does this version from WP have to cost $650 (on sale)?  My word, I wish I could hear or read a rationalization as to why it has to cost that much.  I am not an engineer, designer, fabricator or even a bean counter, but this seems incredibly, incredibly high to me.  Just sayin'.

In another time dimension, I would truly love to have this tool, I really would.

Offline Ola C

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    • Carmonius Finsnickeri
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2022, 06:03 PM »
It bothers me that it looks so much like Ola's design but I can get over that if a few things happened, but so far I don't think they have (Ola, do you have a new car yet ?). 

Just got a new car last november, 3 year contract so can't handle another one right now. [big grin]

I have no demands or expectations on this. It would be nice with a few more youtube subs as I have more jigs in the pipe but very small audience, but that's about it. 

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3485
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2022, 06:53 PM »
All in all, I find that the majority of the views expressed in that YouTube Comments section do reflect the kind of value proposition that I'd like to see from a vendor or merchant. For me, it isn't about whether there is nothing new under the sun, but about acknowledging someone's intellectual contribution, however small it may be. 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 07:25 PM by ChuckS »

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2496
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2022, 04:07 PM »
I like a comment made by Dimitri Mitropoulous on the Mortise Match Deep Dive video that WP posted 15 April.
"Above, Woodpeckers literally linked to every other example EXCEPT HIS ( Ola's )! Can you not see how incredibly bad that looks??? It comes off astonishingly tone-deaf. If you're so willing to cite other examples then cite him too. Easy."
Woodpeckers did seem to get some inspiration from Ola's design.
Definitely not every other example except Ola's. I've seen many more Domino mounting jigs like this over the past 15 years. Some even employed levers or pedals for plunging that freed both hands.

Offline waho6o9

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Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2022, 04:42 PM »
Thank you Lee Valley!

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 537
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2022, 09:31 AM »
Woodhaven had a Domino jig many years ago and discontinued it. Maybe it was a starting point for many jigs.

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 537
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2022, 09:35 AM »
Box 185 seems to have missed the part about the references being before the video appeared. Hard to reference something when the time frame is before the event.

Offline Ross Davis

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Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2022, 06:45 PM »
@ 4nthony   

Thank you for postting the "Everthing is a Remix".  Most interesting and inciteful video I've seen in years.

Ross

Offline jdm5

  • Posts: 119
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2022, 04:25 PM »
@Rob Lee any updates?
Drank the green Kool-Aid...gave up counting long ago.

Offline Muttley000

  • Posts: 22
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2022, 09:01 PM »
It bothers me that it looks so much like Ola's design but I can get over that if a few things happened, but so far I don't think they have (Ola, do you have a new car yet ?). 

Just got a new car last november, 3 year contract so can't handle another one right now. [big grin]

I have no demands or expectations on this. It would be nice with a few more youtube subs as I have more jigs in the pipe but very small audience, but that's about it.

Subbed!
ETS EC 150
TS55 FEQ

Offline Rob Lee

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    • Lee Valley/Veritas
Re: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question
« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2022, 02:29 PM »
@Rob Lee any updates?

Hi - we are just wrapping up production now - and show availability (internally) on June 14-17. Marketing collateral is still being shot. So not long ...!

Cheers -

Rob