Author Topic: Domino Joiner Cross Stop Falling Short? (Read 4372 times)

ChuckS · « **on:** December 10, 2022, 08:01 PM »

After all these years of using the cross stop (with delight for marks-free mortising), I just found out that it is not capable of handling 4mm or even 5mm mortises!

That was disappointing as I took 2 to 3 times longer to finish the latest operation this afternoon after being forced to lay out pencil lines.

Does anyone know if Festool offers a cross stop with a smaller pin? I also wonder if there's a reliable way to reduce the diameter of the pin to a hair under 4mm? If that's possible, I'm thinking of buying an extra pair of the stops, and modify it for 4mm and 5mm tenons.

Edit: Just realized that the idea of modifying an extra stop doesn't fly because each slide alone is $72.60Cdn.

Might be I could just file flat the top and bottom so the pin can fit.

guybo · « **Reply #1 on:** December 10, 2022, 09:21 PM »

His seemed to work w/5mm,btw great old thread sassyhttps://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/very-very-unhappy-with-festool-after-domino-cross-stop/msg22955/#msg22955

ChuckS · « **Reply #2 on:** December 10, 2022, 09:46 PM »

Thanks Guybo for the thread link.

That's interesting because after the 4mm mortise didn't work with the cross stop, I stepped up the cutter to 5mm (it wasn't the ideal size for 1/2" (12mm) ply), but I really wanted to use the cross top to dispense with marking and save time). Yet it still didn't work, and I had to to plug it to recut it with a 4mm cutter:

Did Festool change the cross stop pin spec.? I'll measure the pin's diameter tomorrow...I felt that the pin's shank dia. was a hair larger than 5mm.

guybo · « **Reply #3 on:** December 10, 2022, 10:07 PM »

Hi, I see the parts are different in ekat,#6 has a different # for 498590vs 493488 maybe for df 700?

ChuckS · « **Reply #4 on:** December 10, 2022, 10:13 PM »

The slides (& pins) are the same for the DF500 (red) & DF700 (blue) except that their mounting orientations are different on the rails.

The smallest tenons for DF700 are 6mm. Maybe that's why the cross stop won't work on the 4mm & 5mm mortises (while before the birth of the DF700, the pins did work with the 5mm mortises?).

luvmytoolz · « **Reply #5 on:** December 11, 2022, 01:47 AM »

Quote from: ChuckS on December 10, 2022, 10:13 PM

The smallest tenons for DF700 are 6mm. Maybe that's why the cross stop won't work on the 4mm & 5mm mortises (while before the birth of the DF700, the pins did work with the 5mm mortises?).

6mm for the DF700?

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #6 on:** December 11, 2022, 08:08 AM »

I would just assume "practicality"? How many times would a person need to put several 4mm Dominos in a row, where the stop would be handy?
I would think that they expect those tiny units to be used on fairly small parts where only one is used? or maybe 2, one referenced from each edge?

ChuckS · « **Reply #7 on:** December 11, 2022, 09:20 AM »

Quote from: luvmytoolz on December 11, 2022, 01:47 AM

Quote from: ChuckS on December 10, 2022, 10:13 PM
The smallest tenons for DF700 are 6mm. Maybe that's why the cross stop won't work on the 4mm & 5mm mortises (while before the birth of the DF700, the pins did work with the 5mm mortises?).

6mm for the DF700?

I just checked, and you are right, the smallest cutter for the DF 700 is 8mm dia. (excluding the use of a third-party adapter).

ChuckS · « **Reply #8 on:** December 11, 2022, 09:37 AM »

Quote from: Crazyraceguy on December 11, 2022, 08:08 AM

I would just assume "practicality"? How many times would a person need to put several 4mm Dominos in a row, where the stop would be handy?
I would think that they expect those tiny units to be used on fairly small parts where only one is used? or maybe 2, one referenced from each edge?

The 4mm cutter is used on 1/2" stock (or smaller), which is the ply thickness I prefer for its weight where applicable. Yes, it is not a common material used for large cases, and therefore I didn't know the cross stop doesn't work with the 4mm cutter. But it seems odd that (subject to my further checking) even the 5mm mortises are too small for the cross stop.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #9 on:** December 11, 2022, 09:41 AM »

The Domino 500 and it’s cross stops had already been in production a few years before 4mm Dominos and cutters came along.

ChuckS · « **Reply #10 on:** December 11, 2022, 09:46 AM »

Yes, but does it work with 5mm cutter which has been around since day 1(?)? When I tried it in yesterday's operation, the pin didn't seem to work with 5mm mortises either.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #11 on:** December 11, 2022, 09:50 AM »

Quote from: ChuckS on December 11, 2022, 09:46 AM

Yes, but does it work with 5mm cutter which has been around since day 1(?)? When I tried it in yesterday's operation, the pin didn't seem to work with 5mm mortises either.

Don’t know, been a while since I used it. I’ll go with your results.

ChuckS · « **Reply #12 on:** December 11, 2022, 12:20 PM »

OK. I examined the pin, and it's 5mm in dia., meaning that if you're careful in registering the pin, the cross stop can be used with the 5mm mortises. But if the pin was just a hair under 5mm in diameter, it'd be a great time-saver. I'll share a pic later after I'm done in the shop.

Unlike using the 4mm cutter on 1/2" stock, the 5mm cutter (12mm + 28mm) will cut through the stock unless a spacer is added to the machine's rail. All this extra effort would make the use of the cross stop a moot point.

ChuckS · « **Reply #13 on:** December 11, 2022, 02:05 PM »

The spring loaded pin wouldn't go all the way into a 5mm mortise freshly milled on facegrain. It might be better if the mortise was endgrain.

I might end up filing a flat on the top of the pin (as well as a flat on the bottom side of the pin if I have another 4mm cutter suitable project to do). If I screw up, the worst scenario is a $150 Cdn experiment.

squall_line · « **Reply #14 on:** December 11, 2022, 10:51 PM »

Quote from: ChuckS on December 11, 2022, 02:05 PM

(Attachment Link)

The spring loaded pin wouldn't go all the way into a 5mm mortise freshly milled on facegrain. It might be better if the mortise was endgrain.

I might end up filing a flat on the top of the pin (as well as a flat on the bottom side of the pin if I have another 4mm cutter suitable project to do). If I screw up, the worst scenario is a $150 Cdn experiment.

I would worry about the flats potentially rotating and causing registration issues with the larger mortise sizes, owing the the free-spinning nature of the pins themselves. Or even rotating and catching attempting to slip into the next 4mm mortise.

ChuckS · « **Reply #15 on:** December 11, 2022, 11:28 PM »

Good point if the pins rotate. I didn't check them and thought they were fixed. If they rotate, filing a flat won't work.

Back to the drawing board. It's a shame that the cross stop is not designed to work with 4mm mortises, or with 5mm mortises without a hiccup.

ChuckS · « **Reply #16 on:** December 13, 2022, 01:21 PM »

Not happy with the pins as is on the cross stop (which could get stuck on even the 5mm mortises), I decided to explore alternatives that would allow the cross stop to handle the 4mm and 5mm mortises. I found some economical spring loaded pins, and have ordered them. I still have to figure out how to mount them on the cross stop in use. Or maybe I can mount them to the slides (indirectly?).

This will be a shop experiment project when the pins arrive after the holidays. If it failed, it'd be a $15 (not $150 Cdn!) lesson. (If it succeeded, I'd go ahead and order a new bag of 4mm mortises, which are running out soon after some recent projects.)

TSO_Products · « **Reply #17 on:** January 07, 2023, 12:44 PM »

Quote from: ChuckS on December 13, 2022, 01:21 PM

Not happy with the pins as is on the cross stop (which could get stuck on even the 5mm mortises), I decided to explore alternatives that would allow the cross stop to handle the 4mm and 5mm mortises. I found some economical spring loaded pins, and have ordered them. I still have to figure out how to mount them on the cross stop in use. Or maybe I can mount them to the slides (indirectly?).

This will be a shop experiment project when the pins arrive after the holidays. If it failed, it'd be a $15 (not $150 Cdn!) lesson. (If it succeeded, I'd go ahead and order a new bag of 4mm mortises, which are running out soon after some recent projects.)

(Attachment Link)

@chuck - can you let us know how often your need involving 5 or 4mm Domino placement arises in a year and how many mortises on each project?
We are interested in gaining a wider understanding of unmet functionality needs involving the DOMINO series.

Hans

ChuckS · « **Reply #18 on:** January 07, 2023, 01:10 PM »

Hi Hans,

I use the cross stop only when a project is long/wide enough to justify its use, otherwise, pencil lines will do the job. When I created this thread, it was the first time I tried using the cross stop with 4mm tenons (and then found out the cross stop didn't work with 4mm mortises, or, to some extent, even 5mm ones, even though the design should allow for the latter). For the last particular project, 24 4mm tenons (48 mortises) were eventually used. A work-in-progress shot:

As for the number of projects done using 5mm or 4mm tenons a year, 3 or 4 would be a reasonable estimate, though not every one may require the use of the cross stop. This is no different from whether or not the cross stop will be used with 6 or 8mm tenons. I do try to use the cross stop whenever possible to eliminate the tedious marking of placement lines, and avoid unnecessary errors.

The spring loaded pins haven't arrived yet, but hopefully they will sometime this month.

Willy Eckerslike · « **Reply #19 on:** January 08, 2023, 04:31 AM »

One must also assume that you will experience wear on a 5mm cutter which would marginally reduce its diameter over time. This might not manifest itself when forcing a wooden domino into a slot cut into wood, but might be sufficient to prevent a 5mm spring loaded pin from engaging properly

ChuckS · « **Reply #20 on:** January 08, 2023, 10:05 AM »

That's a good point about wearing, though I didn't seem to have any issues with overtighting when using the 5mm Dominoes. At the next opportunity, I 'll check the cutter with a caliper.

If I find a way to use the cross stop with the 4mm mortises, it sure will work with 5mm ones regardless of the wear and tear issue.

ChuckS · « **Reply #21 on:** January 09, 2023, 05:15 PM »

The spring loaded pins arrived today...but they were not 4mm in diameter, more between 4.6mm and 4.8mm. Checking with the seller about replacements/refund.

The pins don't rotate like those on the cross stops, and so they might still work by flattening the pins, subject to further study. There's hope!

Chris Wong · « **Reply #22 on:** January 12, 2023, 10:30 AM »

I would be tempted to disassemble the pin assembly and machine it down on a lathe (maybe sandpaper and drill would even do it).

ChuckS · « **Reply #23 on:** January 12, 2023, 10:40 AM »

Good suggestion, Chris.

I noticed the other day that there's a screw on the side of the pin assembly. I meant to study if that screw could unlock the pin. Since the cross stop is to be used with the combination of tight-loose mortising setting, it matters little whether the pins are perfect as long as they can slip into the mortises (4mm and 5mm) freely.

I will try using the spring loaded pins (to be reduced in dia.) to fix the problem first, and then look further into modifying the existing pins later.

Update: The seller has just confirmed that the refund is approved, and the return of the out-of-spec. pins is deemed unnecessary as it'd cost them more to arrange the return shipping. (The amount, about the cost of a cup of coffee, involved is tiny, but it is reassurance that many unknown online merchants are honest businesses.)

ChuckS · « **Reply #24 on:** February 03, 2023, 07:59 PM »

Quote from: Chris Wong on January 12, 2023, 10:30 AM

I would be tempted to disassemble the pin assembly and machine it down on a lathe (maybe sandpaper and drill would even do it).

I didn't get to try using the Amazon off-spec pins, and just followed your suggestion, and it worked.

Filing and sanding got the pins down just a hair under 4mm in dia. Not as perfect as done on a metal lathe, which I don't have. (Festool should make (piece of cake to them) and sell pins for 4mm dominoes!). I have a project to do next week that requires the dominoes (but not the use of the cross stop). I'll try out the new pins on some scraps.

The one on the left is filed:

Modified pins that can now handle all Domino sizes: