Author Topic: (Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question (Read 23196 times)

jdm5 · « **on:** January 15, 2022, 08:13 AM »

Hey all,

This thread prompted me to investigate building a benchtop domino jig, both to hold the domino and the material to be mortised.

I liked the design Carmonius Finsnickeri () came up with, but realized it's not height adjustable. I.e. I frequently work with 1/2" and 3/4" stock, and the 10mm cutting height is fine for 3/4" but not so much for 1/2".

Would be curious if anyone has ideas to enable height adjustment on this.

I came up with three:

1. Cut a pocket to recess the Domino machine in that design for the thinnest stock size (say 1/2"), then shim it up to other desired thicknesses (i.e. have a shim ready for 3/4" thickness, fabricate other thicknesses as needed). Will this be accurate/repeatable?

2. Have multiple jigs for multiple thicknesses...seems crazy duplicative / wasteful / $$$ but probably most accurate and minimizes setup time and human error...doesn't seem reasonable

3. Have interchangeable bottom pieces (that holds the domino) for variable thicknesses - i.e. have one thickness cut for 1/2", one for 3/4", be able to fabricate more as needed. Use Domino connectors or something like that to connect the two pieces of the jig . Concern about accuracy with the connectors (getting repeatable heights).

Would welcome any feedback/thoughts - thanks!

Bob D. · « **Reply #1 on:** January 15, 2022, 08:25 AM »

Couldn't you just place a 1/8 shim under the 1/2" material?

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #2 on:** January 15, 2022, 08:29 AM »

That popped up here about a week ago.

afish · « **Reply #3 on:** January 15, 2022, 08:37 AM »

If you shim under the 1/2" then the domino would be even closer to the edge of the 1/2. No?

jdm5 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 15, 2022, 08:42 AM »

Yep - missed that. Thanks!

Bob D. · « **Reply #5 on:** January 15, 2022, 08:46 AM »

Quote from: afish on January 15, 2022, 08:37 AM

If you shim under the 1/2" then the domino would be even closer to the edge of the 1/2. No?

No, you'd be shimming to get the center of the 1/2" material to the same center as the 3/4" material.
So when you make the mortise it will be (close to) centered.

afish · « **Reply #6 on:** January 15, 2022, 08:48 AM »

Quick and easy method would be build the jig from 2 layers. One layer would be full size. the top layer that would have the dovetail groves cut in would stop short where the fence is. this would lower the domino by whatever thickness the top layer is. say 3/4" for example. then you would just need to have blocks of different thicknesses to adjust the height of the domino. Obviously one would be the same thickness as the 2nd layer this would cancel out any deviation and result in basically what you have now flush with a 10mm to center of cutter height . But by having thinner boards that the domino would mount to, would lower it and center it better in thinner stock or vise versa. I would also probably make base plate boards 6-8 wider than the domino so they could screw on to the domino and then the domino and plate would attach to the jig either with some star knobs or toggle clamps this would make attaching and removing easier. It would also give the jig more rigidity after routing in all the grooves.

afish · « **Reply #7 on:** January 15, 2022, 08:54 AM »

Yes, bob is correct. shimming under the material will move the cutter more towards the middle of the stock. My brain isnt fully awake yet.

afish · « **Reply #8 on:** January 15, 2022, 09:00 AM »

But the double layer top is probably better than trying to shim parts individually each time if its more than a one off situation. I would prefer to have one setup and burn through the parts quickly. If its just a once and awhile thing then shimming the parts would work. It would also depend on how precise you needed or wanted the domino centered.

Here is a quick sketch up what I was saying. I didnt get crazy with any details or scaling just a quick overall visual idea. The thinner the stock being mortised the thinner the mounting plate. If you have a planer it would make it easy to make different and precise thickness mounting plates. otherwise you would be limited to standard thickness and adding washers if needed. You could add some adjustment screws under the mounting plate for precise adjustments but you would need a screw in each corner and make sure they are all the same height so the mortise wasnt at an angle. However in some applications it might be handy to angle the mortise... Hmmm. lots of possibilities.

Svar · « **Reply #9 on:** January 15, 2022, 09:36 AM »

Your option #1 is by far the best. Just carefully select shim material: flat, uniform, rigid.

jdm5 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 15, 2022, 10:00 AM »

Thinking about it more - I agree with @afish and @Svar - will go that route.

I can share cnc plans and details if there is interest.

afish · « **Reply #11 on:** January 15, 2022, 10:20 AM »

Not sure I would use it enough for what I do to justify building and storing it, but I would love to see the finished product when you are done. That being said Having plans available is never a bad thing.

ChuckS · « **Reply #12 on:** January 15, 2022, 11:17 AM »

The proposed jig might be useful for small pieces (small registration surface) and miters. For added strength and durability, I would make the shims of the desired thicknesses roughly the width of the jig's base, not just as a pocket.

Vtshopdog · « **Reply #13 on:** January 15, 2022, 11:30 AM »

For shim, how about aluminum plate (of whatever thickness is appropriate for your stock) cut to dimension of Domino base, drilled, countersunk and attached with flathead machine screws to existing threaded holes in domino base.

1/8" is common stock increment, you could fabricate multiple 1/8" shim plates as needed and stack them with appropriate matching length machine screws.

Ola C · « **Reply #14 on:** January 18, 2022, 06:10 AM »

Hi everyone, Ola here from Carmonius Finsnickeri. Nice that my jig is up for discussion.

As I say towards the end of the video, I either place a shim under the Domino (for thicker stock) or under the workpiece (for thinner stock) to acchieve a close to center cut. One fine thing with this jig is that the joints don't have to be in the exact center of the thickness as you never flip the parts upside down. With that said the shims doesn't have to be so exact that the locate the joint in the exact center. I don't cut new shims very often, strips in say 60mm width (and as long as the jig is, 300mm something) suits most operations. The shims under the Domino are simple rectangles that matches the sole of the machine.

For shimming I typically use plastic sheets, like acrylic, in different thicknesses.

p.s. You gave me something to think about though about adjustable height, that's good because I just finished my latest jig and need a new challange

afish · « **Reply #15 on:** January 18, 2022, 07:01 AM »

@Ola C Thanks for making and posting your design here to share for others. Its a great concept and design. The stuff I do hasent really required such an item but Im sure it has helped others. One other thing I would probably do "if" I made one is make 2 of the triangle stops that can be installed on both sides of the workpiece to sandwich the piece and use a toggle style clamp. That should greatly speed up the work flow while still providing really good secure placement of the part if you have a lot of pieces to do.

Ola C · « **Reply #16 on:** January 18, 2022, 09:22 AM »

@afish I totally agree with you if it's large volumes to do but other than that I'm not a fan of toggle clamps. Takes time to adjust to correct height and reach and pressure and they put large torque between the parts and risk to bend the jigs. Of course it depends a lot on what kind of work you do, but for what I'm doing all my toggles including Bessyes autopressureadjust whatever they are called are put in a drawer since many years...but I never do large volumes of anything.

dupe · « **Reply #17 on:** January 18, 2022, 12:53 PM »

@jdm5 nicely done. Fantastic channel btw, excellent content. That superjig

jdm5 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 18, 2022, 01:09 PM »

@dupe no I need to be clear, I'm just building what @Ola C built and it's his channel - he deserves full credit both for the idea and video. I'm just reproducing it (or my own variant of it).

I'm using a CNC so will be able to share the design if Ola is ok with it [I was going to reach out when I had something to show] - I've cut 2 prototypes, 1st I found some mistakes, 2nd I had a power blip and CNC reset...will hopefully finish this week (I hate it when work interferes with hobbies!).

Ola C · « **Reply #19 on:** January 18, 2022, 02:43 PM »

@jdm5 sure no problems go ahead. Would appreciate if you link to my youtube if you plan to share the files.

@dupe Thanks! The Superjig is fresh from the drawing board, just finished the films. Is there a forum subcategory where it would be ok to upload it here or it's pure Festool subjects allowed?

Ola C · « **Reply #20 on:** January 19, 2022, 07:35 AM »

Since the topic was active and you woke my interest for this jig again.

I have something like this in mind, but made mainly in wood + a miniature low profile linear rail. Domino sits on a seperate wedge lift platform controlled with a screw and lockable in height. The wedge part the Domino is attached to doesn't move lengthwise, only the other wedge does. The lowest position for the platform would be well below the jig surface so even the thinnest pieces of would could be cut.

(Yet another) Domino 500 jig...design input/question

afish · « **Reply #21 on:** January 19, 2022, 09:09 AM »

They make a manual version too that might be more reasonably priced but as you mentioned its not necessary to always have them "perfectly" centered. It really depends on what you are making. Im one of the few that generally likes to make my dominos/dowels "perfectly" centered to within a couple thousands. However, when doing lots of parts and minimizing having a large assortment of similar sized parts with specific up/down/left/right and/or matching the end boring pattern of the face drilled parts that come off the CNC Its just better faster in the long run to have everything centered. For non production type work it seems like a bit of overkill/complication but cool none the less. If going to that level then I would also be looking at going to pneumatic clamping too. The ability to clamp/release multiple clamps all at once with the flick of a lever is awesome. I know when I was building my doweling station I thought about something similar to adjust height since I was referencing off the bottom but have now decided to go completely in a different direction.

Do you know how much that item is you posted?

Ola C · « **Reply #22 on:** January 19, 2022, 11:55 AM »

Don't know the price for the one I posted, just grabbed a random picture to Illustrated my idea.

There are also lab jacks/scissor lifts in quite robust deisigns like attached pic. These are not very expensive but I have no idea how stable or accurate they are.

You could also go for a traditional linear rail slider, standing up, and put the domino on an upside down u-bracket from the left side, and lock the U-shape on both sides when the height is dialed in.

afish · « **Reply #23 on:** January 19, 2022, 12:48 PM »

Do you have a link to buy that scissor one? Interested to find out how much it is. Might get one just to play with.

Ola C · « **Reply #24 on:** January 19, 2022, 01:20 PM »

Search for lab jacks or manual lift on Aliexpress. Think this was about 100$. Not very cheap.

Cheese · « **Reply #25 on:** January 19, 2022, 01:28 PM »

Quote from: afish on January 19, 2022, 12:48 PM

Do you have a link to buy that scissor one? Interested to find out how much it is. Might get one just to play with.

I'd just Google sine plate or scissors sine plate. They range from $150 to $12,000.

Actually I found these inexpensive varieties depending upon what your needs are.

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=AS_20220119104119&SearchText=scissor+lift

afish · « **Reply #26 on:** January 19, 2022, 01:44 PM »

Thanks

jdm5 · « **Reply #27 on:** April 12, 2022, 09:17 AM »

It looks like Woodpeckers is manufacturing Ola's design, with some Woodpeckery variations.

https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

Their height adjustment solution looks clever.

Rob Lee · « **Reply #28 on:** April 12, 2022, 10:42 AM »

Quote from: jdm5 on April 12, 2022, 09:17 AM

It looks like Woodpeckers is manufacturing Ola's design, with some Woodpeckery variations.

https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

Their height adjustment solution looks clever.

We have a modified version in pre-production right now - and ARE paying Ola royalties. Will post info later today....

Cheers -

Rob

jdm5 · « **Reply #29 on:** April 12, 2022, 10:54 AM »

That is great to hear Rob! I will definitely take a look there

Rob Lee · « **Reply #30 on:** April 12, 2022, 11:25 AM »

Hi -

Here's ours - coming in a few weeks.

Price will be $300 USD or less. Table construction is Melamine clad Baltic Birch. Designed for the DF 500, and height selectable in precise fixed increments using aluminum shims. Variable angle square will be an option - 45/90 is standard.

Be glad to post more when ready for prime time....

Cheers -

Rob

smorgasbord · « **Reply #31 on:** April 12, 2022, 12:16 PM »

Looks like Woodpeckers has ripped off some of the ideas behind this jig, at the typical high Woodpeckers' pricing.

https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

ChuckS · « **Reply #32 on:** April 12, 2022, 01:06 PM »

Quote from: smorgasbord on April 12, 2022, 12:16 PM

Looks like Woodpeckers has ripped off some of the ideas behind this jig, at the typical high Woodpeckers' pricing.

https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

I don't know how it works in the adoption and commercialization of ideas (which can't be copyrighted, I believe), but will people get discouraged from sharing their one-of-a-kind shop ideas (in this Forum or any public media) if they think commercial entities will use theirs without acknowledging their contributions?

Rick Herrick · « **Reply #33 on:** April 12, 2022, 05:19 PM »

Quote from: Rob Lee on April 12, 2022, 10:42 AM

We have a modified version in pre-production right now - and ARE paying Ola royalties. Will post info later today....

Cheers -

Rob

FWIW, I am really glad Ola is getting some attention on this. Thank you for that. His design was/is very cool.

Capt'n 360 · « **Reply #34 on:** April 13, 2022, 09:52 AM »

I am happy that Lee Valley is sharing royalty with Ola, that is how it should be. Every time I see Lee Valley's name or buy one of their tools it will make me happy. Every time I see WoodPeckers' name or the tools that I have purchased from them I will second guess my purchase.

Thank you Lee Valley, Thank you Ola.

hdv · « **Reply #35 on:** April 13, 2022, 11:08 AM »

Let's not jump gun. I don't think the people in Strongsville are the type to just "rip-off" someone's ideas. Remember, they are on the receiving end of that stick all too often. They know how it feels. We just don't have enough information to make a well-founded judgement on that. Do we?

On the other hand: great big kudos to Lee Valley and Ola! It is great to see good ideas being picked up in a way that benefits everyone.

ChuckS · « **Reply #36 on:** April 13, 2022, 11:17 AM »

Two wrongs d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y don't make a right.

Until we're proven wrong, we all know what we're seeing. We welcome any representative from Woodpeckers to join the discussion, don't we?

Ola C · « **Reply #37 on:** April 13, 2022, 02:11 PM »

Hello everyone, well what a drama...

I'm not as upset as many others are, based on the comments on woodpeckers youtube. Guess a feeling of pride dampens my negative reaction. I wrote a mail (still unanswered) to woodpecker yesterday saying they should have acknowledged me but that's about it. It's not about money for me, it's about claiming to have invented something that was invented by someone else. My level of reaction would have been pretty much identical if a random youtuber with 500 subs was claiming my idea. It's quite obvious woodpecker have seen my movies about the domino table. The overall idea and jig layout/design, the workflow with flipping the fence and the motivation to why this table is a big improvement for small parts is identical. The integrated fence flipper which I invented "live" here on fog (see link below) a few days after the first movie was released is more or less a straight copy.

I have a feeling that woodpecker would have handled this different if I was one of the "big youtubers". Just a feeling though.

All credit to Veritas who have treated me very well.

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/domino-jig-for-smaller-parts/

hdv · « **Reply #38 on:** April 13, 2022, 02:27 PM »

Thanks for shedding a light on this Ola. Sadly, it confirms the suspicions some already had.

I have to admit I am a bit disappointed in Woodpeckers after reading this (well, more than a bit to be honest). As I wrote, they know how it feels if another just takes your idea and the effort it took to turn it into a usable tool. Therefore I wouldn't have expected them to treat you like this. Let's see if one of their representatives joins in and what they have to say about all this.

Hopefully this little storm will make them acknowledge you on their product page. Credit where credit's due.

And let me take this opportunity to thank you for being so generous to share some of your wonderful ideas with the rest of us.

Dane · « **Reply #39 on:** April 13, 2022, 04:17 PM »

Ugh. Well, at least no one has to feel guilt about buying the Chinese Woodpecker knock offs anymore

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #40 on:** April 13, 2022, 04:18 PM »

Glad to hear Ola, kudos to you, and Veritas, and Lee Valley bringing it to the market.

I noticed your jig early on, and figured I’d have to build my own (probably a lot lesser than yours..

). But now there will be an option, and the very good impression of Lee Valley and Veritas I’ve had as a customer only manifests further.

4nthony · « **Reply #41 on:** April 15, 2022, 02:42 PM »

From the video comments:

Quote

"We’ve recently received some criticism accusing us of stealing this product idea from a YouTube video. While we certainly saw the video in question while researching MortiseMatch, it was only one of the videos and articles we found. The earliest similar design we found was from 2001, 18 years earlier than the video that is being claimed to be the soul source of our inspiration.
Nothing in our marketing of MortiseMatch claimed this to be a completely unique idea. In fact, the second paragraph of the product release email specifically mentioned that we had reviewed several designs online and found them to be lacking certain features we found critically important, primarily the ability to adjust the height of the cut.
Here are just a few of the links to web pages we found while researching table mounting the Domino, all of which pre-date the Carmonius Finsnickeri video by almost 2 decades."

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2002/02/01/biscuit-master-review
https://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-plans/jigs/accurate-alignment-biscuit-joiner-jig
https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/26077
https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/thestationarybiscuitjoiner.aspx

Valid response and this whole topic reminds of a video series called "Everything is a Remix" which, if I remember correctly, was about how every current idea is based on an old idea and that there's isn't much "new" anymore. From movies and music, to design, architecture, and devices, most things are just rehashed versions of another thing that came before it.

The wheel has already been invented; it's just being continually refined. Even if someone arrives at an idea independently of outside influence, it doesn't mean the idea is unique or doesn't already exist.

Rick Herrick · « **Reply #42 on:** April 15, 2022, 04:50 PM »

It bothers me that it looks so much like Ola's design but I can get over that if a few things happened, but so far I don't think they have (Ola, do you have a new car yet ?).

I am not afraid to spend money on tools. I have lots of blue, green and red tools. I will pay for something I really want. But really... does this version from WP have to cost $650 (on sale)? My word, I wish I could hear or read a rationalization as to why it has to cost that much. I am not an engineer, designer, fabricator or even a bean counter, but this seems incredibly, incredibly high to me. Just sayin'.

In another time dimension, I would truly love to have this tool, I really would.

Ola C · « **Reply #43 on:** April 15, 2022, 06:03 PM »

Quote from: Rick Herrick on April 15, 2022, 04:50 PM

It bothers me that it looks so much like Ola's design but I can get over that if a few things happened, but so far I don't think they have (Ola, do you have a new car yet ?).

Just got a new car last november, 3 year contract so can't handle another one right now.

I have no demands or expectations on this. It would be nice with a few more youtube subs as I have more jigs in the pipe but very small audience, but that's about it.

ChuckS · « **Reply #44 on:** April 15, 2022, 06:53 PM »

All in all, I find that the majority of the views expressed in that YouTube Comments section do reflect the kind of value proposition that I'd like to see from a vendor or merchant. For me, it isn't about whether there is nothing new under the sun, but about acknowledging someone's intellectual contribution, however small it may be.

Svar · « **Reply #45 on:** April 16, 2022, 04:07 PM »

Quote from: box185 on April 15, 2022, 09:02 PM

I like a comment made by Dimitri Mitropoulous on the Mortise Match Deep Dive video that WP posted 15 April.
"Above, Woodpeckers literally linked to every other example EXCEPT HIS ( Ola's )! Can you not see how incredibly bad that looks??? It comes off astonishingly tone-deaf. If you're so willing to cite other examples then cite him too. Easy."
Woodpeckers did seem to get some inspiration from Ola's design.

Definitely not every other example except Ola's. I've seen many more Domino mounting jigs like this over the past 15 years. Some even employed levers or pedals for plunging that freed both hands.

waho6o9 · « **Reply #46 on:** April 16, 2022, 04:42 PM »

Thank you Lee Valley!

jimbo51 · « **Reply #47 on:** April 17, 2022, 09:31 AM »

Woodhaven had a Domino jig many years ago and discontinued it. Maybe it was a starting point for many jigs.

jimbo51 · « **Reply #48 on:** April 17, 2022, 09:35 AM »

Box 185 seems to have missed the part about the references being before the video appeared. Hard to reference something when the time frame is before the event.

Ross Davis · « **Reply #49 on:** April 17, 2022, 06:45 PM »

@ 4nthony

Thank you for postting the "Everthing is a Remix". Most interesting and inciteful video I've seen in years.

Ross

jdm5 · « **Reply #50 on:** May 09, 2022, 04:25 PM »

@Rob Lee any updates?

Muttley000 · « **Reply #51 on:** May 09, 2022, 09:01 PM »

Quote from: Ola C on April 15, 2022, 06:03 PM

Quote from: Rick Herrick on April 15, 2022, 04:50 PM
It bothers me that it looks so much like Ola's design but I can get over that if a few things happened, but so far I don't think they have (Ola, do you have a new car yet ?).

Just got a new car last november, 3 year contract so can't handle another one right now.

I have no demands or expectations on this. It would be nice with a few more youtube subs as I have more jigs in the pipe but very small audience, but that's about it.

Subbed!

Rob Lee · « **Reply #52 on:** May 10, 2022, 02:29 PM »

Quote from: jdm5 on May 09, 2022, 04:25 PM

@Rob Lee any updates?

Hi - we are just wrapping up production now - and show availability (internally) on June 14-17. Marketing collateral is still being shot. So not long ...!

Cheers -

Rob

jdm5 · « **Reply #53 on:** June 26, 2022, 01:18 PM »

@Rob Lee ... any update?

Rob Lee · « **Reply #54 on:** June 30, 2022, 12:36 PM »

Waiting on an a late shim extrusion..... but all ready to go once received!

It's due within days now.

Cheers -

Rob

Rob Lee · « **Reply #55 on:** July 17, 2022, 08:01 AM »

Hi,

While 95% of this product was finished months ago, the extrusion for the standard shim was several weeks late, but the jig will be up on the website and available to ship on Monday ( July 18).

Cheers,

Rob

ChuckS · « **Reply #56 on:** July 17, 2022, 11:10 AM »

Options, prices and any pictures of the final product?

Rob Lee · « **Reply #57 on:** July 18, 2022, 07:43 AM »

Hi,

Product is up on the website - just search for 05J1701 . Inventory is in transit between buildings, so still showing out of stock … but will be received this AM, and is ready to ship.

Cheers,

Rob

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #58 on:** July 18, 2022, 10:07 AM »

Here it is.

Adamsse · « **Reply #59 on:** July 18, 2022, 11:25 AM »

Looks great, better price than alternatives, AND in stock. I just ordered one.

ghjaxman · « **Reply #60 on:** July 18, 2022, 12:15 PM »

I also just order one. I look forward to using it. I have a bunch of panel doors to build.

Rob Lee · « **Reply #61 on:** July 18, 2022, 02:03 PM »

Thanks for the orders…..

…I just ordered one too….!

Now I have to get my Domino back from the R&D department…..

Cheers,

Rob

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #62 on:** July 18, 2022, 08:15 PM »

That is one very good looking unit. Well thought out and professional

jbarr · « **Reply #63 on:** July 19, 2022, 01:50 AM »

This does look good but I have one concern. The positioning rod is just placed in a hole. How much wiggle room is there now and will that get worse as time goes on? Ola's system for aligning the rod and locking it in seems way better than the one offered here. I made the Ola version as soon as I saw his and absolutely love it but I use a series of 12 memory sticks of different lengths which covers everything I do and is perfectly accurate but I was hoping Lee Valley would have come up with a similar set up Ola's, however their shim system is a big improvement over mine. I was 50/50 on ordering this but I'll stick with my home made job especially given the shipping cost and delivery time to Australia which is always a problem for us woodworkers on things like this. Woodpeckers version would have cost over $1100 USD including a whopping shipping cost of around $400 USD.

Rob Lee · « **Reply #64 on:** July 19, 2022, 08:26 AM »

Hi,

We went for a simple, replaceable, easy to make design. Hole wear should be insignificant…but should it ever arise, drill another hole beside it, or plug and re-drill, or even put in a hdpe liner…lots of choices.

With our design, you can easily make custom fences for specific applications, and can use the same registration system for all.

Cheers,

Rob

Ola C · « **Reply #65 on:** July 19, 2022, 09:51 AM »

Quote from: Rob Lee on July 19, 2022, 08:26 AM

Hi,

We went for a simple, replaceable, easy to make design. Hole wear should be insignificant…

Cheers,

Rob

Correct me if I'm wrong Rob but looking at the pictures there seems to be a (metal?) bushing in the hole for the positioning rod?

Rob Lee · « **Reply #66 on:** July 19, 2022, 10:30 AM »

D’oh!

Ola is correct….production has a brass sleeve ( our pre-production didn’t)….

Nonetheless - comments above are still relevant….we used this design choice to allow customers to make their own fences.

Would have been able to answer better had I been able to pick up my order!

ChuckS · « **Reply #67 on:** July 19, 2022, 10:38 AM »

Quote from: Rob Lee on July 19, 2022, 10:30 AM

D’oh!

Ola is correct….production has a brass sleeve ( our pre-production didn’t)….

Snip.

If the final version didn't come out with a sleeve, I'd probably modify it myself to use it with one anyway!

Rob Lee · « **Reply #68 on:** July 19, 2022, 12:04 PM »

The embarrassing thing is….I’m the one who suggested the sleeve, and I forgot about it. We did have the discussion around wear, and decided it was a non issue… but didn’t want to argue it…and just added it.

Which I sorta just did anyway….

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #69 on:** July 19, 2022, 01:17 PM »

Noticed a unusually interesting Lee Valley mail too yesterday!
Recognised immediately the Carmonius jig

It’ll be in my “shopping cart” until later - picking it up from one of LV dealers in Europe or direct from LV at a later point when more need for it.

jbarr · « **Reply #70 on:** July 20, 2022, 03:17 AM »

Quote from: Rob Lee on July 19, 2022, 08:26 AM

With our design, you can easily make custom fences for specific applications, and can use the same registration system for all.

Cheers,

Rob

I understand the flexibility of making your own fences.

Rob, can you just buy the positioning rod assembly as a spare part?

If not can anyone provide a link as to where I could buy/make my own

Bob D. · « **Reply #71 on:** July 20, 2022, 06:27 AM »

Quote from: Rob Lee on July 19, 2022, 10:30 AM

D’oh!

Ola is correct….production has a brass sleeve ( our pre-production didn’t)….

Nonetheless - comments above are still relevant….we used this design choice to allow customers to make their own fences.

Would have been able to answer better had I been able to pick up my order!

Rob, you didn't go all out and get the optional angle fence that I saw mentioned earlier?

Rob Lee · « **Reply #72 on:** July 20, 2022, 11:37 AM »

Quote from: jbarr on July 20, 2022, 03:17 AM

Quote from: Rob Lee on July 19, 2022, 08:26 AM

With our design, you can easily make custom fences for specific applications, and can use the same registration system for all.

Cheers,

Rob

I understand the flexibility of making your own fences.

Rob, can you just buy the positioning rod assembly as a spare part?

If not can anyone provide a link as to where I could buy/make my own

Hi… I can certainly get a price for that…. Shoot me an email at rlee@leevalley.com …. We should have the parts in stock at Veritas.

Cheers -

Rob

Rob Lee · « **Reply #73 on:** July 20, 2022, 11:46 AM »

Quote from: Bob D. on July 20, 2022, 06:27 AM

Quote from: Rob Lee on July 19, 2022, 10:30 AM
D’oh!

Ola is correct….production has a brass sleeve ( our pre-production didn’t)….

Nonetheless - comments above are still relevant….we used this design choice to allow customers to make their own fences.

Would have been able to answer better had I been able to pick up my order!

Rob, you didn't go all out and get the optional angle fence that I saw mentioned earlier?

Hi Bob -

No….we didn’t run it, as I’m not convinced of the utility/value over making your own specialty fence.

1. If we had made it, many would have bought it as part of the intro, without questioning the utility of it ….so a risk of disappointing customers long term
2. If you can cut the angles for the piece to Domino, you’re capable of cutting the angle needed for your own fence.
3. Adjustable things can also go out of adjustment….!

It is easy to make though….and we’re willing to do it if there’s enough demand.

Cheers,

Rob

ChuckS · « **Reply #74 on:** July 20, 2022, 11:56 AM »

Quote from: Rob Lee on July 20, 2022, 11:46 AM

Snip.
2. If you can cut the angles for the piece to Domino, you’re capable of cutting the angle needed for your own fence.
3. Adjustable things can also go out of adjustment….!

Snip.

Cheers,

Rob

22.5* is what I foresee doing down the road, and yes, I do plan to use the same shop setting to cut the components as well as the custom fence at the same time when I get to that.

Bob D. · « **Reply #75 on:** July 20, 2022, 01:35 PM »

Quote from: Rob Lee on July 20, 2022, 11:46 AM

Quote from: Bob D. on July 20, 2022, 06:27 AM
Quote from: Rob Lee on July 19, 2022, 10:30 AM
D’oh!

Ola is correct….production has a brass sleeve ( our pre-production didn’t)….

Nonetheless - comments above are still relevant….we used this design choice to allow customers to make their own fences.

Would have been able to answer better had I been able to pick up my order!

Rob, you didn't go all out and get the optional angle fence that I saw mentioned earlier?

Hi Bob -

No….we didn’t run it, as I’m not convinced of the utility/value over making your own specialty fence.

1. If we had made it, many would have bought it as part of the intro, without questioning the utility of it ….so a risk of disappointing customers long term
2. If you can cut the angles for the piece to Domino, you’re capable of cutting the angle needed for your own fence.
3. Adjustable things can also go out of adjustment….!

It is easy to make though….and we’re willing to do it if there’s enough demand.

Cheers,

Rob

Understood.

ChuckS · « **Reply #76 on:** July 21, 2022, 09:28 AM »

Need to come up with a suitable project (not another picture frame!) to build to test the jig.

ChuckS · « **Reply #77 on:** July 29, 2022, 04:42 PM »

Finally here:

Assembly may take some time, but I already have some tentative idea on what to use it for (subject to further study).

jbarr · « **Reply #78 on:** July 29, 2022, 07:51 PM »

Quote from: ChuckS on July 29, 2022, 04:42 PM

Finally here:

(Attachment Link)

Assembly may take some time, but I already have some tentative idea on what to use it for (subject to further study).

Look forward to a review when you've set it up, Chuck
I'm still undecided whether to stick with my home made Carmonius copy, which works well, or go with one of these more professional units

ChuckS · « **Reply #79 on:** July 30, 2022, 02:55 PM »

Quote from: jbarr on July 29, 2022, 07:51 PM

Look forward to a review when you've set it up, Chuck
I'm still undecided whether to stick with my home made Carmonius copy, which works well, or go with one of these more professional units

I haven't studied his design vs Veritas's in detail, and so I wouldn't know what significant or additional benefits one may have over the other. But this is my initial take (not a review) of the Veritas joinery table.

- Assembly was not much different from putting together an Ikea build (allow about 30 minutes for reading the instructions and assembling the components).
- The table is much larger than I thought, and so, given its weight, I didn't need to clamp it down on the workbench to test it
- The spring-loaded hold-down clamps are clever
- To align and set the machine to the fixed fence, use the movable fence (not a straight edge), as given in the instructions.

For testing the table, I milled some 5mm stock with the 4mm cutter, using shop-made crude 2.5mm thick shims.

Conclusion: The table delivered what it is supposed to. The mating pieces were flush on the faces, although the mortises were not centered.

Why testing with 5mm stock? Because the first project I have in mind to build with the jig will be using 5mm ply -- but I need to find some accurate 2.5mm material to use as shims first.

Improvements made:

1) I replaced the small washers for the knobs with larger ones, but I intend to use large plastic washers if I can find them (or make them)

2) To prevent the offset gauge knob from falling out, I put an O-ring on the rod.

jbarr · « **Reply #80 on:** July 30, 2022, 10:44 PM »

Brilliant Chuck! I have two more nagging questions .....

Did you find the indexing/referencing rod (apart from your O ring hack) accurate and remains solid and consistent in that hole?
Did you find only having horizontal slots for clamping adequate? The reason I asked that is because on the carmonius version when drilling into long horizontal boards, like face frames, I used the vertical slots for solid clamping

ChuckS · « **Reply #81 on:** July 31, 2022, 12:08 AM »

I didn't test the offset gauge for accuracy, but I have no reason to believe it isn't. There is no play in the hole. The indexing procedure went pretty smoothly. One potential source for inaccuracy, I'd argue, lies not in the offset gauge but in the paddles/spring stops. Those two paddles need to have the same distance from the center point of the cutter.

I'll check about the clamping aspect further tomorrow.

ChuckS · « **Reply #82 on:** July 31, 2022, 10:59 AM »

Jbarr,

Not sure if this mock-up test answers your question. I tried out the hold-downs on a 26" long scrap in a couple of orientations. The holding was rock solid even when I applied only a moderate clamping pressure:

If I understood your concern correctly, I can say that the spring-loaded hold-downs should not present any clamping problem to any stock that can fit on the joinery table.

I also found that for fast clamping, press down the arm (blue arrowed) to the stock before turning (spinning) the knob.

In actual use (at least in most cases), I think I will use only one hold-down at the front given its holding power, and hold the other end of the stock against the fixed or movable fence with my non-dominant hand to provide a counter force to the plunging, just in the same way we usually do when using the DF500 without clamping the stock. I also think that the Veritas joinery table can be used without clamping it down to the bench if the joinery table butts against something (a wall, dogs or planing stop on the bench, etc.), but this isn't something I'm sure at this point in time as I haven't really used it in a project.

jbarr · « **Reply #83 on:** July 31, 2022, 07:52 PM »

Thanks for being so helpful Chuck and yes you answered my concerns perfectly.

Yes the paddles have to be equidistant from the centre of the Domino. All these jigs, woodpeckers, carmonius and veritas are relying on and assume that festool have provided that precision.

John

ChuckS · « **Reply #84 on:** August 01, 2022, 11:49 AM »

You're welcome, John. By trying to answer your questions with some test cuts, I came to know about the joinery jig more.

I found enough 6.5mm ply scrap for my project without needing to buy a sheet of 5mm ply:

This also means that I can use the 2mm shim stock that came with the table for the milling. I may still look for some 2.5mm shims for future use.

Sheik Maboutie · « **Reply #85 on:** August 01, 2022, 05:05 PM »

I built this back in July 2010 to give a better alignment and speed of production, the feed lever worked extremely well giving a much smoother feed.

This was posted on the Festool user forum in August 2010

ChuckS · « **Reply #86 on:** August 01, 2022, 06:48 PM »

This is another version:

Adamsse · « **Reply #87 on:** August 02, 2022, 04:39 PM »

I just set up and tested my Veritas Domino Joinery table. I love this accurate capability and affordable price. However I tried swapping out the clamps with Woodpecker clamps I use on my drill press table. I find them much easier/quicker to slide down the slot and clamp down on the piece. I also like the fact they have rubber faces to protect the wood/table. The Veritas clamps are very effective as well, they just need a little more force to position. I plan to add a plastic washer under the Veritas clamp metal washer to see if that helps with sliding them. I wouldn’t have paid for the new WP clamps, but definitely think they will be easier to use when processing multiple pieces.

ChuckS · « **Reply #88 on:** August 02, 2022, 06:24 PM »

Quote from: Adamsse on August 02, 2022, 04:39 PM

I just set up and tested my Veritas Domino Joinery table. I love this accurate capability and affordable price.

Snip.

I, too, found the hold-downs sticky in use, but had a simple solution to it. I replaced the springs with ones that have less tension:

I can now slide the hold-downs without much effort. (I have a similar T-slot hold-down clamp (not spring-loaded) on my drill press, which cost me about $15US.)

I was also experimenting with the use of Festool clamps on the jig this morning. No conclusion has been reached on that yet. I need to look into that further to be sure the clamps won't damage the jig.

About the price. There's no way I could build a joinery table of similar quality at the retail price I paid, even though I have built so many jigs over the years...unless I don't count my hourly rate as a woodworker.

ChuckS · « **Reply #89 on:** August 02, 2022, 06:29 PM »

I should also add that I finally found the 2.5mm shim stock for milling 5mm ply material...from HD:

jbarr · « **Reply #90 on:** August 02, 2022, 11:39 PM »

Probably Microjig's dovetail clamps would work as well.

Chuck I'm impressed that your mortising 5mm stock when the smallest tenon is just under 4mm. Not a lot of wiggle room. I guess this jig makes that possible. BTW I use my home made carmonius version (and soon to buy this jig) for doing small boxes so I also mortise into faces as well as edges. I use an L shaped push block to keep the piece vertical and hard up against the fence using one of the clamping elements clamps. I obviously needed a 20mm hole which I drilled in the middle of the jig. Just another use which works perfectly not shown in any of the videos

ChuckS · « **Reply #91 on:** August 03, 2022, 11:27 AM »

John,

I've done Dominoes with 5mm stock before: https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/member-projects/sorting-trays-(5mm-ply)-done-with-df500-4mm-tenons/msg662850/#msg662850

The joinery table will use a shim on the table instead of a shim on the machine, with improved accuracy. The set-up will also be simpler.

Adamsse · « **Reply #92 on:** August 03, 2022, 10:13 PM »

Chuck, Thanks for alerting us to 5mm capability. I just tried that on the Veritas table. The .093 acrylic + 2 sheets of paper did it. If you have additional posts or photos on how you have applied this in the past, we would appreciate it. Sandy

ChuckS · « **Reply #93 on:** August 04, 2022, 11:00 AM »

Sandy,

The sorting trays are the only project I used 5mm ply on, but I saw the potential of the Veritas joinery table to do similar tasks that require precision and more.

jbarr · « **Reply #94 on:** August 13, 2022, 10:38 PM »

OK me too!
You convinced me Chuck!
The delivery cost, however, is a killer! I guess in a years time I won't remember.

John

jbarr · « **Reply #95 on:** August 22, 2022, 11:39 PM »

Look what arrived!
From Canada to Australia in only 6 days from ordering. It often takes longer than that within Australia. I was surprised to see how big it was particularly compared to my Carmonius version and speaking of which I'm so glad he gets a royalty from my purchase. He deserves it! Note the 20mm hole in my home made version. That takes an in line clamp for drilling into faces for small box making. The bigger fence on the Veritas version makes this easier but at this stage I'm not willing to drill a 20mm hole into my brand new table.
Quality, accuracy and tolerances as reported by others are great
I'm still trying to work out what are the best most efficient clamps. I've tried the supplied clamps and changed to a lighter spring like Chuck suggested as well as an Incra clamp, ratchet clamp and home made clamps.
What clamps did you find the most suitable Chuck?

John

ChuckS · « **Reply #96 on:** August 23, 2022, 10:33 AM »

John,

After replacing the springs, I've used the hold-downs with no issues. You may want to try out a few springs to find the sweet tension spot. I've also used the Festool Quick Release clamps with success, for example, for holding down the 2mm sheet on the table.

For workpieces that are too small or too tall to be clamped on, I use a right-angle bracket or block to hold them in place (it's a lot faster, too):

I, too, was surprised by the large package when I picked up my joinery table, and by its size after assembly. I was probably "misled" by the images of the original table that Carmonius shared, and thought that the Veritas version would be similar in size. The large, sturdy table is advantageous in at least two aspects based on my limited use: i) I can butt it against a stop on my bench, and use it without having it clamped to my bench, ii) The large top allows me to work with big and small components.

In my second project making use of the joinery table, I built a couple of drawers to store the accessories, if you haven't read it: https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/member-projects/user-upgrade-to-the-veritas-domino-joinery-table/

jbarr · « **Reply #97 on:** August 25, 2022, 03:35 AM »

I thought I'd whip up a quick box, inspired by your box Chuck, to house all the accessories using Kaizen foam. The box is using 4 x 20 dominoes and 12mm MDF. I wasn't game to use 4mm dominoes in a 6mm board.

ChuckS · « **Reply #98 on:** August 25, 2022, 11:18 AM »

Nice organizer!

Were there any major differences in the process or result between using the new and your previous shop-made joinery table? Do you prefer the dovetail clamps over the spring-loaded hold-down clamps given the design of your shop-made jig?

jbarr · « **Reply #99 on:** August 25, 2022, 05:16 PM »

In terms of results, accuracy and alignment, no difference. Both excellent! Setup and aligning the domino to the fixed fence using a straight edge, no difference. I prefer the way dovetail clamps slide smoothly in their slots but their biggest flaw is that don't swivel 360 deg and you therefore need twice the slots, vertical and horizontal. The veritas provided clamps are quicker in terms of repeat mortises on the same thickness stock but I wish they would slide more smoothly.

I guess people are asking and I'm asking myself why did I buy the veritas version when I have an equivalent, accurate and fully functioning device. Firstly I use memory sticks instead of the more elegant indexing rod. I made 12 sticks of different lengths that cover most projects. I slide the fence to nearly its correct position and then measure to the appropriate flap on the domino and then grab the nearest stick in length and then slide the fence against the stick. Not efficient but effective. Also I found in some cases I was regretting not making a bigger unit. So I was just about to make a new and improved jig, given I was using it nearly all the time, until I saw the veritas version and I was immediately hooked. The woodpecker version which is too small, would have cost me $1100 USD delivered to Australia (ouch!!) and it offered nothing more in terms of functionality and accuracy but as far as I was concerned its only benefit was not having to use shims but I'm finding them not to be a problem and finally I was tempted to send Carmonius a donation for his brilliant jig but as I said above, buying this unit gave him a royalty

simonh · « **Reply #100 on:** February 09, 2023, 06:56 AM »

Back at you Woodpeckers

It was going to be a while before this was available in the UK and also no doubt even more expensive with the exchange rate and taxes.

Here's mine based on Ola's design and re-mix by Woodpeckers. I made a few design decisions:

1) Shim under the Domino to alter the height as I prefer the repeatability aspect of using fixed shims.
2) Used Microjig dovetail groove for clampling.
3) Used the dovetail track for attaching the square rather than separate holes, which seemed finicky.
4) Added stops on the T-Track so you can setup multiple positions and quickly flip between them.

Here's one for the Woodpecker fans:

And, if you're a hater:

I machined the square out of POM on a Nomad 883 CNC machine. The table is made from HPL (solid phenolic), and the mounting holes and Domino cut-out were machined with a Shaper Origin. Microjig Matchfit grooves routers on Jessem router table, using 8mm clearance pass, then the micro jig special bit for the dovetails.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #101 on:** February 09, 2023, 09:54 AM »

That is fantastic @simonh

Did you design the square from scratch?

What is POM?

How did you mount/register the moving leg of the square upside to mill the relief on the underside?

Have you (can you) post this project at the Carbide forum?

hdv · « **Reply #102 on:** February 09, 2023, 10:13 AM »

POM stands for polyoxymethylene, also known as polyacetal. It has properties somewhere between nylon and UHMWPE. It is more flexible than nylon and has the low friction of UHMWPE. If I am not mistaken it is called delrin on your side of the pond? Not 100% sure of that though.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #103 on:** February 09, 2023, 10:40 AM »

I looked up the name you gave and you’re right, it’s called Delrin over here. Great stuff.

ChuckS · « **Reply #104 on:** February 09, 2023, 11:15 AM »

Nice. People can buy an adjustable guide fence, which is useful for other applications, too.

For those who can afford a bit of time in the shop, they can Google and download a protractor template, and make their own. I use mine with the Veritas Domino Joiner Table:

P.S. Life will be made easier if you use 3/4" ply instead of 1/2" ply for the jig (DAMHIK).

simonh · « **Reply #105 on:** February 10, 2023, 04:33 AM »

Yes, I designed the square from scratch in Fusion 360.

I use the threaded table on the Nomad with a flattened spoil board mounted to it.

My usual procedure for something like this is to use the origin as the centre hole of the threaded table and the Z origin as the table spoil board. I set up a couple of threaded table jigs on the model, one above and one below the part.

Then, I project a few holes through the model to use as bolting/location points. I lightly double-stick the piece in place and drill the holes to mount the piece to the table with M6 bolts. I then cut the face side.

Then I set up the reverse side in Fusion using the same origin hole on the opposite table. Flip the piece, bolt it down and cut the reverse size. If you got the origin setup good on the Nomad, you should need any changes for the flip. I usually check a couple of X/Y points are where I expect them to be. Otherwise, you might need to shift the X/Y a few thou.

An alternative for a part like this would be to flip the part to re-probe the X/Y for the bottom left of the machined part using the BitZero (manually it is quite hard, with the rounded corner).

Most of the time CNCing parts is thinking through jigs, mounting and where to probe for references.

I'll see about uploading the square to the Nomad forum, although I don't want to upload the entire projector and infringe anyone's design.

Ola C · « **Reply #106 on:** February 10, 2023, 04:48 AM »

Nice jig with some improvements @simonh.

I like the protractor fence. And I like that the jig looks very pro in phenolic.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #107 on:** February 10, 2023, 09:53 AM »

Thank you for the illustrated explanation of milling two sides of a complex part. Very helpful.

waho6o9 · « **Reply #108 on:** February 10, 2023, 11:15 AM »

I wonder if a Sine plate with the MFT holes would be useful.