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FESTOOL DISCUSSIONS => Festool How To... => Topic started by: shaun.mcc on April 01, 2015, 12:00 PM

Title: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: shaun.mcc on April 01, 2015, 12:00 PM
Need some help...got my new MFT/3...before I cut on it I need to square it up.

Well, those nice Woodpecker one-time tools make me yearn for a nice speed square or (if I had ordered earlier and was patient) the new Woodpecker MFT square. What all do you recommend? I'm sure my $10.00 speed square is not sufficient    [embarassed]...I have a little 12" Woodpecker (that doesn't sound right)...T-Square.

 
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: roblg3 on April 01, 2015, 12:51 PM
Any L or triangle shaped square that is about a 1/2" thick should work.  AS LONG AS  IT'S ACTUALLY SQUARE.  Do you know how to check them?  I use a WP1281 square for mine it's 8x12" and it works just fine.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: them700project on April 01, 2015, 01:26 PM
woodpecker had some options, though I fear you are too late. I didnt pick up an MFT yet but I did order one of the 12 x 18 squares last month. They also had this http://www.woodpeck.com/mftsquare.html (http://www.woodpeck.com/mftsquare.html)
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: jobsworth on April 02, 2015, 02:16 AM
Woodpeckers 1281 square, it's what they used in the end user classes for years.

http://www.woodpeck.com/1281.html (http://www.woodpeck.com/1281.html)

You can get them at woodcraft and most woodworking stores
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Birdhunter on April 02, 2015, 08:11 AM
I use the Woodpecker "framing" square along with Qwas dogs. The combination is excellent for squaring the fence. Another great and inexpensive addition to the MFT is the Slop Stop. It fits into a groove under the fence and eliminates side to side movement. If you call Woodpeck directly, sometimes they have a few discontinued tool in the shop. Thats how I got the framing square.

I also use the framing square to true up the miter gauge on my table saw.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: grbmds on April 02, 2015, 01:31 PM
If you really want a Woodpecker's Framing Square or MFT Square, I would check with Woodpecker's. I was at the Milwaukee WW Show a couple of weeks ago and Woodpecker's still had the Framing Squares yet. I would also guess that it's possible they might still take an order for the MFT Square, but this is not something you'd have for at least 2 - 3 months as it is now being made. If you want something immediate, check on the Framing Square. If they have any, they would ship them right away. Please do a search on FOG and check online for videos. There are a number of options for squaring the fence to the guide rail and using dogs to get a square cut with the rail. There are also some different options to checking squareness once you set the MFT up. The problem for me was there were too many choices so I just simplified it. I square it up using what I currently feel is my most accurate square, then do a quick check on some scrap and leave it at that. As long as the end result works for what I am making, I am happy. Plus, I've found that cuts with the TS55, MFT, and guide rail are more accurate and square than my old table saw, so regardless, I am now getting a better result overall.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Peter Parfitt on April 02, 2015, 01:43 PM
Can you buy Engineers' squares in the US? In the UK they conform to a quite stringent standard and a 12" square is about 55 UK pounds which at the moment must be about $70.

As an aside, in North America how does the UK pound sign appear - here it is £55 ?

Peter
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: leer on April 02, 2015, 02:55 PM
Can you buy Engineers' squares in the US? In the UK they conform to a quite stringent standard and a 12" square is about 55 UK pounds which at the moment must be about $70.

As an aside, in North America how does the UK pound sign appear - here it is £55 ?

Peter

Peter,

I'd hesitate to guess how most here would represent "currency" pounds.  I would not be surprised to see it as "55 lbs." ...   [big grin]  I see dollars represented as 70$ as often as $70. 

And regarding typing, you would be hard pressed to figure out how to type the "£" here.  (I cheated and cut and paste from your post!).
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: TequilaTony on April 02, 2015, 02:57 PM
This is only opinion but you can square it up using a couple Qwas dogs and a decent dial caliper if you trust the CNC hole pattern which I do.

1) I used 2 qwas dogs to set the back fence parallel to the table holes by placing the qwas dogs in the holes and butting the back fence up to them. This ensures the back fence is parallel to the horizontal hole pattern.
2) I then moved he dogs to the vertical pattern and measured the distance to from the rail edge to dog.

There are a couple youtube videos of others using a similar technique.

Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: ear3 on April 02, 2015, 02:58 PM
I use a 32" Woodpecker T-square (which is always on sale and not a OTT) and a dedicated scrap piece of ply a little smaller than the size of the table top.  Simply line up the splinterguard with the pencil mark and I'm good.  Advantage for me is I can be proof-positive of squareness by simply making a small off-cut of the scrap board.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Birdhunter on April 02, 2015, 03:20 PM
My iPad "keyboard" has the £ sign.

Amazon has a number of engineer's squares listed.

Funny story about UK pounds. I was getting a haircut by my lady barber a long time ago and I mentioned I was going to London. I mentioned I had already bought my Pounds. She stopped cutting. After a long pause, she asked "pounds of what?" This same lady told me she had been hiking near a river and had slipped on the rocks because they were covered with allergies.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: grbmds on April 02, 2015, 03:37 PM
You can buy engineer squares in the US. However, I have not found anything 12". The largest I have found was 8" and I assume that is only on one side with the other side being much less. They are very accurate though and I've used one of my small ones to square up the rail to the fence on the MFT. It actually is about as good as using larger squares. I actually did buy the MFT Square. It is nice because of it high sides and the length of each side and, of course, I doubt accuracy is an issue. It was an extravagance that I question even now. I just felt it had multiple uses for me and I really didn't have an accurate square of that size. I've seen it in person at a WW Show. Just looking at it made me want right then. (Kind of a human flaw, I think. Maybe counseling can remedy it.)
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Birdhunter on April 02, 2015, 05:35 PM
Traditionalwoodworker.com advertises a 12" machinist square the conforms to British Standard 939 and has a guaranteed tolerance of less than 0.001" per inch over the entire length of the blade. This is both inside and outside the surfaces. The price is $37.95USD.

However, I think 12" is far too small for aligning the MFT fence.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: shaun.mcc on April 02, 2015, 09:51 PM
Thanks everyone. I will call Woodpecker and see if they have any of the 18" speed squares or other options...I like the Qwas dogs idea...as I believe in the precision of the CNC milled holes.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: bkharman on April 02, 2015, 11:01 PM
I hardly use the rail and pivot anymore. I generally use my Precision Dogs and Precision Rail Dogs to setup. I need to shot a video of it but I can use the rail dogs with the rail for ease of cutting or I can use the rail/rail dogs combo to set the flip down rail. You can use any dogs to do the flip fence setup but some folks don't like to put kerf lines through the dog holes.

Hope this helps.

Cheers. Bryan.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Stevec717 on April 05, 2015, 01:50 PM
FWIW I was late to the party for the Woodpecker MFT setup. I just got my table in March. I saw the square and said to myself " missed it by that much!" And a beautiful one time tool.

On a whim I emailed Woodpeckers around end of March and they said sure- they could add me! So I'm waiting for an MFT setup square.

If you like the MFT square, don't give up until you contact them. It's also possible that since people don't pay until they ship (and with this being a pretty expensive item) that some people could drop out or cancel (lives and priorities change), opening up allocations.

Worth a try.

Steve
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: JonSchuck on April 05, 2015, 02:29 PM
FWIW I was late to the party for the Woodpecker MFT setup. I just got my table in March. I saw the square and said to myself " missed it by that much!" And a beautiful one time tool.

On a whim I emailed Woodpeckers around end of March and they said sure- they could add me! So I'm waiting for an MFT setup square.

If you like the MFT square, don't give up until you contact them. It's also possible that since people don't pay until they ship (and with this being a pretty expensive item) that some people could drop out or cancel (lives and priorities change), opening up allocations.

Worth a try.

Steve
I think some of the more popular "one time tools" such as their 26X16 square, they make every couple years.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: ScotF on April 05, 2015, 06:23 PM
One of the squares mentioned by Woodpeckers is great. I also use a piece of plywood cut square with the 5 cut method and that works really well too.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: rst on April 05, 2015, 07:06 PM
I used a dial digital dial indicator and dogs to set up my MFT and then made blocks to use on a regular basis for ease.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: montyss on April 05, 2015, 09:43 PM
After just getting the MFT/3 a little more than a month ago I made up a large Corian triangle on it to setup the fence and rail .
Started with the table saw to get a really good edge to start from then used the mft for the 45 deg cut
after it was cut there was no wiggle with the 4 dogs on the mft 
 (http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q233/monte_ss00/DSC_02451_zpsbvv20okb.jpg) (http://s137.photobucket.com/user/monte_ss00/media/DSC_02451_zpsbvv20okb.jpg.html)
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: vkumar on April 05, 2015, 10:37 PM
After just getting the MFT/3 a little more than a month ago I made up a large Corian triangle on it to setup the fence and rail .
Started with the table saw to get a really good edge to start from then used the mft for the 45 deg cut
after it was cut there was no wiggle with the 4 dogs on the mft 
 (http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q233/monte_ss00/DSC_02451_zpsbvv20okb.jpg) (http://s137.photobucket.com/user/monte_ss00/media/DSC_02451_zpsbvv20okb.jpg.html)

That looks very impressive. Can you please explain step by step how you obtained the two right angle sides? The 45 degree I can understand after you have the 2 sides at 90 deg.
Vijay
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: shaun.mcc on April 17, 2015, 03:45 PM
I got an order in with Woodpeckers for the MFT Square list...I watched the YouTube video for the tool...seems to have other uses. In the mean time I can use the 3/4/5 triangle formula, but I'll also get Qwas dogs.

Thanks!
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Peter Parfitt on April 17, 2015, 04:03 PM
I make do with my 12 " engineer's square and it is jolly accurate. You might be interested to take a look at the video below from about the 5 minute 20 second point to see just how accurate the MFT3 holes are (rows versus columns):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS8Y2CECAZY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS8Y2CECAZY)

Peter
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: shaun.mcc on April 17, 2015, 06:33 PM
Thanks Peter, will do!
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: SereN on May 06, 2015, 03:57 AM
I'm looking to buy a square for my MFT as well, and did some investigating already. I started with Woodpecker and Starlett products in my mind, but came to the conclusion that there are other, more affordable, options available. (Albeit with less other uses, besides being square)

I'm talking about the 'engineer's or machinist' squares Peter already mentioned. In the UK they use the BS 939 standard, in Europe the DIN875 standard. For me it's important to use a square manufactured according to a given standard. I was hearing a lot of people complaining about cheaper squares that weren't actually square, or had some 'play' (over time).

The DIN875 standard stipulates 4 grades: 00, 0, 1 and 2 (in decreasing accuracy)
Tolerances per grade: http://www.thome-precision.com/DIN875.html (http://www.thome-precision.com/DIN875.html)
 
I'm thinking the least accurate grade 2 is actually sufficient (for my use). A din875 grade 2 square with a short leg of 300mm (~12") will have af maximum fault of 0,05mm, extrapolated to 1mm at 20m.

What I'm still debating (for use with the MFT) is to go for a flat square, or one with a back:
(http://www.measureshop.biz/images/products/ultra/Ultra_tisk-122-i1.jpg)

And what size I would get. I'm thinking about a 500x250mm model (20"x10"), as I'll still be able to use it in 600mm (24") high/wide cabinets.

What do you think?
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: grbmds on May 06, 2015, 02:02 PM
I would pick a square that has a "back". I have found that it is more convenient and easier to square up the rail/fence on the MFT with a square that allows you to raise the guide rail above the table. Just my preference.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Picktool on May 06, 2015, 03:46 PM
FWIW I was late to the party for the Woodpecker MFT setup. I just got my table in March. I saw the square and said to myself " missed it by that much!" And a beautiful one time tool....

Peckers told me last week that I was able to get MFT square,
but I changed my mind after I made one at work on the router.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: WelshWood on May 07, 2015, 07:52 AM
Do woodpecker have a UK site, or exclusive the US?

~WW
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Peter Parfitt on May 07, 2015, 08:54 AM
Do woodpecker have a UK site, or exclusive the US?

~WW

Hi WW,

You can get Woodpeckers kit from The Woodworkers Workshop here in the UK.

http://woodworkersworkshop.co.uk/ (http://woodworkersworkshop.co.uk/)

I should add that Woodpeckers can be a little slow in keeping the supply line to the UK flowing but Woodworkers Workshop are a great bunch to deal with.

Peter
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: jobsworth on May 07, 2015, 04:20 PM
Do woodpecker have a UK site, or exclusive the US?

~WW

You can also order their stuff and a lot of other good stuff from Woodcraft. They do ship International. A bud of mine just ordered the Jessum stock guides from them.

www.Woodcraft.com (http://www.Woodcraft.com)
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Peter Parfitt on May 08, 2015, 02:50 AM

You can also order their stuff and a lot of other good stuff from Woodcraft. They do ship International. A bud of mine just ordered the Jessum stock guides from them.

www.Woodcraft.com (http://www.Woodcraft.com)

That's fine if you have an APO over here.

Peter
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: jobsworth on May 12, 2015, 12:15 PM

You can also order their stuff and a lot of other good stuff from Woodcraft. They do ship International. A bud of mine just ordered the Jessum stock guides from them.

www.Woodcraft.com (http://www.Woodcraft.com)

That's fine if you have an APO over here.

Peter

Nope other then Festool you can order pretty much anything.

 my friend is a Brit who lives near bury St Edmunds . He ordered it himself from the states, got it and loves it.
From the woodcraft site:
Do you ship outside the contiguous U.S.?

Orders destined for AK, HI and any of the territories or possessions of the U.S. are shipped by standard U.S. Postal mail. Regular shipping and handling charges apply, but expect 4 to 6 weeks for delivery. Contact our customer service department if you need to arrange rush delivery to these areas. Festool products can only be sold in the 50 states.

If your order is to any country or territory outside of these areas, complete your order as an International Shopper. Shipping rates are based on UPS, USPS or Freight Shipping depending on the dimensional weight of your order.

In some cases, you will receive a message that your rate will be emailed. In this case, we will contact you with shipping options and costs before processing your payment. We will generally quote 2 or 3 options including, where applicable, ground, air and sea shipping methods. Should you decide that none of these options are acceptable, due to expense or timing, you are free to cancel your order without penalty.

You are responsible for any customs, duties, taxes and clearance, charged by your country. These charges are calculated and billed separately by customs once they receive the package.

Please note: Flammable items can not be shipped by air or sea in international shipments. We accept U.S. funds only, and for your convenience we recommend you use a credit card or bank money order (if ordering by mail). Personal checks or money orders are not accepted unless drawn on a U.S. bank. Direct Ship from Manufacturer items are not available for international shipment.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Tinker on May 12, 2015, 01:08 PM
I have a 12x12 speed square i got many moons ago from, i think, Hartville Hardware.  It has a back along one edge that just fits into the slot of my MFT fence.  When the back is set into the T-slot of my fence, there is absolutely no wiggle.  With my rail down, i then slide the square against the back side of the rail.  If the rail or fene have been bumped and moved out of squar, it is an easy matter to just slide that squar ad move the ed of rail adjusting tab until perfectly squar. Both fence and rail have been factory milled to be straight.  I see no need to use a larer square.
Tinker
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: 1toolshort on June 09, 2015, 03:41 PM
I just received Woodpecker's new Framing square.  Worked like a dream on my MFT table.  Biggest headache of that whole set up.  Not a concern, now.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Anderson-Plywood on December 04, 2015, 11:18 AM
Just letting you guys know that we made a layout Square which is ideal for Festool MFT table.
Our customers love it here in California.
It is actually featured in Festool training center in Las Vegas.

It is a CNC cut and we made the Square from rigid Phenolic European plywood for durability.
The holes in the body are designed to accept clamps and also to make it easy to hang from the table.


http://www.andersonplywood.com/square-for-festool-mft-square/ (http://www.andersonplywood.com/square-for-festool-mft-square/)

[attachimg=1]

Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Anderson-Plywood on December 04, 2015, 11:21 AM
Here is another photo of the Square.

http://www.andersonplywood.com/square-for-festool-mft-square/ (http://www.andersonplywood.com/square-for-festool-mft-square/)

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: neilc on December 04, 2015, 06:10 PM
That is fantastic!  Great utility.  Even better price!

Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: 1951CorrectCraft on December 04, 2015, 06:25 PM
The Anserson Plywood square is very nice and nuts on square. Best value even if you just use it for the MFT.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Holmz on December 04, 2015, 07:51 PM
With a couple of alloy dogs you can make it all square is eh dog holes are in a square pattern. So you do not even need a square.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Peter Halle on December 04, 2015, 08:06 PM
With a couple of alloy dogs you can make it all square is eh dog holes are in a square pattern. So you do not even need a square.

You are absolutely correct.  But there two basic ways of addressing the use of the MFT tables.  The first is using the table profiles as a reference to square off of and the second is to square off of the table grid.  Both will work and that why a quality square will come in handy if someone chooses not to use the holes as a reference.

Peter
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: grbmds on December 04, 2015, 09:55 PM
With a couple of alloy dogs you can make it all square is eh dog holes are in a square pattern. So you do not even need a square.

You are absolutely correct.  But there two basic ways of addressing the use of the MFT tables.  The first is using the table profiles as a reference to square off of and the second is to square off of the table grid.  Both will work and that why a quality square will come in handy if someone chooses not to use the holes as a reference.

Peter

@Peter Halle I started out trying to square to the table grid just using the holes in the MFT. Now, though I have found that I need to have the final assurance that the rail is at a perfect 90 to the fence by checking that with a square I know is "perfect". So, I still do line up the fence with the dog holes by inserting dogs on the backside of the fence. When the fence is secure, I then use my square to square up the rail to the fence. I have found that I get essentially perfect 90's if I go through that process when I am making my final crosscuts to size. Since I do bump into the table once in awhile in my shop I have decided I need that final step when I'm ready to make final crosscuts. I am very happy with the result (because I have a great and accurate square). That's just me, though, and my insecurity that something won't be square just using the holes.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Holmz on December 05, 2015, 12:11 AM
So with dogs that are parallel to the fence, would a scrap of wood ripped to the gap be sufficient to ensure that the fence was parallel to the dog holes?
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Bohdan on December 05, 2015, 12:17 AM
So with dogs that are parallel to the fence, would a scrap of wood ripped to the gap be sufficient to ensure that the fence was parallel to the dog holes?

Yes. And that would also be the easiest way the square the holes to the MFT rail as long as the wood was truly parrallel.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Holmz on December 05, 2015, 12:25 AM
So with dogs that are parallel to the fence, would a scrap of wood ripped to the gap be sufficient to ensure that the fence was parallel to the dog holes?

Yes. And that would also be the easiest way the square the holes to the MFT rail as long as the wood was truly parrallel.

Or one cuts a square piece of ply and flips it over.
Any angle error will show up as double...

I actually have a couple of squares but I only use them off the MFT myself. ;)
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Scorpion on December 05, 2015, 12:47 AM


Or one cuts a square piece of ply and flips it over.
Any angle error will show up as double...

I actually have a couple of squares but I only use them off the MFT myself. ;)

Both are true for me as well.  The cut, flip, /2 method is fast, easy, and free.  As a result, my big square doesn't spend much time on the mft.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Peter Halle on December 05, 2015, 02:47 AM
I personally use dogs to set mine up.  Several members have found this video from a few years ago helpful:  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iLYJXHVx-Bo (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iLYJXHVx-Bo)

Peter
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Scorpion on December 05, 2015, 09:28 AM

I personally use dogs to set mine up.  Several members have found this video from a few years ago helpful:  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iLYJXHVx-Bo (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iLYJXHVx-Bo)

Peter

This method is quick, reliable, and doesn't require much thought as long as you can live within the constraints of the dog hole layout.  An example of a setup where it's less than ideal is when you want to set up at the outer limits of the table for width (say 24-inches) for setting the fence/miter extrusion.  The dog hole layout prevents it even though the table is wide enough to support it. 
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Holmz on December 05, 2015, 04:28 PM
One can use anything for a shim to get any delta between the 96-mm holes. One can use wood, a beer can, a ruler.
But One can use a straight edge if they are more comfortable with it.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: JonSchuck on December 05, 2015, 07:09 PM
A year or so ago I was wondering just how accurate those holes in the mft/3s  were.  I took two Qwas dogs, stuck them in adjacent holes and measured them with my digital caliper, outside to outside.  I wrote that number on the mft3 right between the holes.  I did that with about half the holes in one mft/3 and about one fourth the holes on my other one, in both the x and y axis.  I was looking for variation.
I just went out and looked at my tables.  Most of the holes were within three thousandths of 4.585 inches.  However, the smallest was 4.575" and the largest was 4.593".  I was very careful to hold the caliper the same on all of them.  I checked all of them twice and the ones that were way off several times more.
Now, when using the dogs as a fence, I keep them as far apart as possible to minimize the error.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Corwin on December 05, 2015, 08:14 PM
A year or so ago I was wondering just how accurate those holes in the mft/3s  were.  I took two Qwas dogs, stuck them in adjacent holes and measured them with my digital caliper, outside to outside.  I wrote that number on the mft3 right between the holes.  I did that with about half the holes in one mft/3 and about one fourth the holes on my other one, in both the x and y axis.  I was looking for variation.
I just went out and looked at my tables.  Most of the holes were within three thousandths of 4.585 inches.  However, the smallest was 4.575" and the largest was 4.593".  I was very careful to hold the caliper the same on all of them.  I checked all of them twice and the ones that were way off several times more.
Now, when using the dogs as a fence, I keep them as far apart as possible to minimize the error.

Now hope that your perforated top doesn't sag. For if it does, those holes are no longer vertical. Worse yet, they will vary greatly -- outer holes more vertical than center holes throwing any possibility of 'accurate' alignment totally out the window. Even the holes along the back row or two are not plumb enough to use for alignment purposes. At least that has been my experience with only a moderate amount of sag back when they were still looking at importing 20mm pipe from across the pond to use for their dogs. I can do much better using other methods without having these errors interfere. Yet, I am sure your experience will vary.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Corwin on December 05, 2015, 09:14 PM
Here's another thought I've had in mind. And one for all you dog lovers, 'cause, heck, I love dogs too. Walk mine three or four times every day. Anyway, how about purchasing a second 'replacement' top for your MFT. Either take this, or swap out with your current top, and trim down slightly to allow it to be used as a sled on your MFT. As I recall, that grid of holes is also parallel with the edge, and if not, you can easily make it so by trimming an edge using your dogs to align the rail. So, now you can slide this sled left/right against your current fence. Unleash your dogs to align the backside of your rail to obtain a sqaure setup. Then this sled is used to make narrow rips or align smaller pieces under the rail. Like this:

[attachimg=1]

Thanks Brice Burrell for the MFT model.  [big grin]

Or, you could just buy a nice [big] square. I have two of those too.  [big grin]
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: grbmds on December 06, 2015, 02:10 AM
I just use the Woodpecker's MFT Square for piece of mind when I want to make sure the fence and rail are at a "perfect" 90 with each other. It's a simple step to check and not much longer if I find that the two guided are not quite square (generally because they were bumped. It's a pricey tool, but can you put a price on something that always gives you a good feeling what your chekcing is square?
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Anderson-Plywood on December 08, 2015, 10:55 AM
Thanks for awesome comment!
 [big grin]
The Anserson Plywood square is very nice and nuts on square. Best value even if you just use it for the MFT.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Anderson-Plywood on December 11, 2015, 10:45 AM
Just another photo of our Square from another angle.

Here is the link if you would like to order one:
http://www.andersonplywood.com/square-for-festool-mft-square/ (http://www.andersonplywood.com/square-for-festool-mft-square/)

(http://images.nitrosell.com/product_images/17/4140/largealt2-Square.jpg)
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Dane on December 11, 2015, 02:48 PM
I'm a former LA guy and love Anderson.  I had that square in the shopping cart- but man, shipping's kind of a bear....doubles the cost.  Still a square deal, but you might get more action if you can get that shipping hit down a bit.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Anderson-Plywood on December 11, 2015, 03:09 PM
Thanks for your comment!
Shipping cost is a little bit high because of the irregular shape of the package (30"x22"x2"), we don't mark up the shipping cost and it is automatically calculated by the UPS & USPS APIs which are integrated in our web store.

Even if you put two squares in one order, the shipping size will only change slightly because the size will be 31x22x4.

The thing is it is still a pretty good deal including the shipping cost. (I heard rumors that prices are going up by the end of today due to higher production cost  [wink])

We hope to see you back in our store again!  :)
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: jobsworth on December 12, 2015, 04:20 AM
I'm a former LA guy and love Anderson.  I had that square in the shopping cart- but man, shipping's kind of a bear....doubles the cost.  Still a square deal, but you might get more action if you can get that shipping hit down a bit.

I ordered 2 of them. I already have a woodpeckers 45m triangle that I know is dead on square. but I thought Id try this one. A bud of mine here said he needed a square and this seems to me (if it is dead nuts on) better then the 1281 WP square for setting up the MFT.

Even with the shipping its still less expensive then anything else I know of thats accurate and can be used to set up a MFT.

Im looking fwd to getting my lunch clamps on it to try it out.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Anderson-Plywood on December 15, 2015, 10:35 AM
We launched this product locally and asked our professional customers to try it out and the feedback was great.. Then we thought this is a good tool, we should share it with all Festool owners.

http://www.andersonplywood.com/square-for-festool-mft-square/ (http://www.andersonplywood.com/square-for-festool-mft-square/)
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Anderson-Plywood on December 18, 2015, 10:22 AM
Some people buy 2 at a time, the shipping cost stays almost the same, so if you have a Festool buddy, you can get two of them and share the shipping cost..
We have also enabled the USPS shipping for the Square, it will be a few bucks cheaper.


I'm a former LA guy and love Anderson.  I had that square in the shopping cart- but man, shipping's kind of a bear....doubles the cost.  Still a square deal, but you might get more action if you can get that shipping hit down a bit.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: MFalconer on January 06, 2016, 10:33 AM
I'm a former LA guy and love Anderson.  I had that square in the shopping cart- but man, shipping's kind of a bear....doubles the cost.  Still a square deal, but you might get more action if you can get that shipping hit down a bit.

There is a trick  [wink] [cool] add a cheap Festool item to your order and the shipping will be free..  [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: jobsworth on January 06, 2016, 02:40 PM
theres a cheap festool item?????
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: shaun.mcc on January 06, 2016, 04:14 PM
I think that is a great idea (the plywood unit...though I've needed some phenolic resin board before and it was $$$)...

update on my technique is: I do use the Parf dog...and then use my Woodpeckers MFT square to verify everything is perfect.

The plywood is great...keep in mind that Woodpeckers precision and use of CMM (computerized measurement machines) to ensure their precision is part of what you are paying for...I believe they use a OGP Flash unit (in one of their videos). I was looking at one for my business...in measuring parts we deal with...and our unit will be about $100k...and it's just for measuring.

Obviously...though in my woodworking...thus far I don't need that uber level of precision...not yet. :)
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Svar on January 06, 2016, 04:36 PM
A year or so ago I was wondering just how accurate those holes in the mft/3s  were.  I took two Qwas dogs, stuck them in adjacent holes and measured them with my digital caliper, outside to outside.  I wrote that number on the mft3 right between the holes.  I did that with about half the holes in one mft/3 and about one fourth the holes on my other one, in both the x and y axis.  I was looking for variation.
I just went out and looked at my tables.  Most of the holes were within three thousandths of 4.585 inches.  However, the smallest was 4.575" and the largest was 4.593".  I was very careful to hold the caliper the same on all of them.  I checked all of them twice and the ones that were way off several times more.
Now, when using the dogs as a fence, I keep them as far apart as possible to minimize the error.

Finally, a fellow researcher soul with actual numbers instead of "super duper CNC precision" armwaving!
Was 0.003" the standard deviation? Was there any wiggle in Qwas dogs?
I made my top myself with old Ryobi router and regular Festool guide rail, and I think I got better precision and accuracy. I'll check and report.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: JonSchuck on January 07, 2016, 07:44 PM
A year or so ago I was wondering just how accurate those holes in the mft/3s  were.  I took two Qwas dogs, stuck them in adjacent holes and measured them with my digital caliper, outside to outside.  I wrote that number on the mft3 right between the holes.  I did that with about half the holes in one mft/3 and about one fourth the holes on my other one, in both the x and y axis.  I was looking for variation.
I just went out and looked at my tables.  Most of the holes were within three thousandths of 4.585 inches.  However, the smallest was 4.575" and the largest was 4.593".  I was very careful to hold the caliper the same on all of them.  I checked all of them twice and the ones that were way off several times more.
Now, when using the dogs as a fence, I keep them as far apart as possible to minimize the error.

Finally, a fellow researcher soul with actual numbers instead of "super duper CNC precision" armwaving!
Was 0.003" the standard deviation? Was there any wiggle in Qwas dogs?
I made my top myself with old Ryobi router and regular Festool guide rail, and I think I got better precision and accuracy. I'll check and report.
I would say that 90% or more were within .004" of  4.585".  However, the extremes were .018" or about 1\55".  I didn't notice any slop with the Qwas dogs but even a very little bit that I wouldn't notice could make a difference.  Also, as Corwin has said, any sag in the table would change things.  But it would be nice to start with perfectly square so my own dumbass mistakes wouldn't be compounded. 
It would be very interesting to me if your Ryobi router and Festool guide rail made a more square table.  Please let us know and share how you did it.
Thanks.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Anderson-Plywood on January 27, 2016, 03:05 PM
Just letting you know that we made a new batch of squares!
They are back in stock now with new packaging!

http://www.andersonplywood.com/square-for-festool-mft-square/

(http://images.nitrosell.com/product_images/17/4140/alt2-Square.jpg)
(http://images.nitrosell.com/product_images/17/4140/Square.jpg)
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Anderson-Plywood on February 24, 2016, 07:40 PM
Design and manufacture of the Anderson MFT square has taken place here in California.
We welcome any comments or critiques about the MFT square from those who own one or have used it.

Here is the link if you need more info:
Anderson MFT Square (http://www.andersonplywood.com/square-for-festool-mft-square/)
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Anderson-Plywood on April 07, 2016, 11:39 AM
The new series of Anderson MFT squares are out!
We have trimmed square edges with Festool Trim Router and used the Festool VAC SYS (the new vacuum clamp) to hold the piece.
They look and feel much nicer now!
I will post pictures later on.  [big grin]

Here is the link to the Anderson MFT Square:
http://www.andersonplywood.com/square-for-festool-mft-square/

Here is the Trim Router we used:
http://www.andersonplywood.com/mfk-700-modular-trim-router-set-festool-574368-fes574368/

Here is the link to Festool VAC SYS Clamp:
http://www.andersonplywood.com/festool-vac-sys-system-set-57000004-fes57000004/
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: jaxx on April 09, 2016, 05:05 PM
Need some help...got my new MFT/3...before I cut on it I need to square it up.

Well, those nice Woodpecker one-time tools make me yearn for a nice speed square or (if I had ordered earlier and was patient) the new Woodpecker MFT square. What all do you recommend? I'm sure my $10.00 speed square is not sufficient    [embarassed]...I have a little 12" Woodpecker (that doesn't sound right)...T-Square.

I managed to get the large MFT square a few months ago via Ebay as I missed the One Time Deadline. Its simply brilliant and a joy to use, set up the MFT in seconds. Don't hang it on the side of the MFT with the supplied bracket as it tends to get knocked off easily. Down side was the premium price I had to pay to get it. Eye watering but worth it.......... 
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: grbmds on April 09, 2016, 08:50 PM
you can hang it with the hangar facing inward on the back of the MFT. I've done that and it's out of the way.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Acrobat on April 20, 2016, 12:29 AM
Not knocking all the great squares on offer throughout this post but if the original poster or anyone else hasn't purchased a square for their MFT but has the Festool MFS profiles, simply join them into a rectangle and use that. All the sides are very accurate and when assembled you'll get a pretty darn good square for nix.
I believe there is a "Setting up your MFT" guide in the Festools links page here that shows it and other handy info within it too. [smile]
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: grainhaus on April 20, 2016, 01:15 PM
Just purchased, looking forward to using this!
 
Thanks!


The new series of Anderson MFT squares are out!
We have trimmed square edges with Festool Trim Router and used the Festool VAC SYS (the new vacuum clamp) to hold the piece.
They look and feel much nicer now!
I will post pictures later on.  [big grin]

Here is the link to the Anderson MFT Square:
http://www.andersonplywood.com/square-for-festool-mft-square/

Here is the Trim Router we used:
http://www.andersonplywood.com/mfk-700-modular-trim-router-set-festool-574368-fes574368/

Here is the link to Festool VAC SYS Clamp:
http://www.andersonplywood.com/festool-vac-sys-system-set-57000004-fes57000004/
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Anderson-Plywood on May 27, 2016, 07:33 PM
Congrats!
Please let us know your feedback!



The new series of Anderson MFT squares are out!
We have trimmed square edges with Festool Trim Router and used the Festool VAC SYS (the new vacuum clamp) to hold the piece.
They look and feel much nicer now!
I will post pictures later on.  [big grin]

Here is the link to the Anderson MFT Square:
http://www.andersonplywood.com/square-for-festool-mft-square/

Here is the Trim Router we used:
http://www.andersonplywood.com/mfk-700-modular-trim-router-set-festool-574368-fes574368/

Here is the link to Festool VAC SYS Clamp:
http://www.andersonplywood.com/festool-vac-sys-system-set-57000004-fes57000004/

Just purchased, looking forward to using this!
 
Thanks!


The new series of Anderson MFT squares are out!
We have trimmed square edges with Festool Trim Router and used the Festool VAC SYS (the new vacuum clamp) to hold the piece.
They look and feel much nicer now!
I will post pictures later on.  [big grin]

Here is the link to the Anderson MFT Square:
http://www.andersonplywood.com/square-for-festool-mft-square/

Here is the Trim Router we used:
http://www.andersonplywood.com/mfk-700-modular-trim-router-set-festool-574368-fes574368/

Here is the link to Festool VAC SYS Clamp:
http://www.andersonplywood.com/festool-vac-sys-system-set-57000004-fes57000004/
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Anderson-Plywood on June 17, 2016, 01:46 PM
We got our new inventory of squares in!
http://www.andersonplywood.com/square-for-festool-mft-square/
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: QuailRider43 on June 19, 2016, 02:05 AM
I use qwas dogs and the MFT fence to square everything up.  The MFT fence is a reference straight edge that you already own, and the table holes are CNC'd, so you don't really need to buy another reference.  Slide fence out of the protractor head unit.  Loosen rail alignment screws.  Put qwas dogs in holes immediately left of MFT rail.  Butt loose MFT fence on the right against dogs.  Butt rail on the right against fence & dogs.  Hold dog/fence/rail sandwich in place.  Lock down all rail adjustment screws, brackets etc.  Rail is now dead parallel to holes, and offset by width of the fence.  Now lift up the rail assembly, and reinstall the fence in the protractor head.  Loosen protractor head alignment screws and adjustment knobs.  Set stop to 0 deg.  Butt fence unit against dogs placed in holes parallel to fence.  Tighten down angle alignment screws.  Fence is now aligned with holes, and a perfect 90 deg with rail.  Easy 5 min setup, and no additional squares needed.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Bert Vanderveen on June 19, 2016, 06:04 AM
Easy 5 min setup, and no additional squares needed.

True, very much so, and the way I do the setup too (although I use an extra rail I have), but the square — whatever kind you prefer — is convenient to check for squareness periodically, without having to go through to whole setup procedure again. I can understand why people would want to do that.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: QuailRider43 on June 19, 2016, 11:19 AM
but the square — whatever kind you prefer — is convenient to check for squareness periodically, without having to go through to whole setup procedure again.

Ah, good point.  I hadn't thought of that.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: ShawnNYC on June 23, 2016, 01:50 PM
Just a heads up.
I wanted the Woodpecker 18" square for my MFT and other uses.
Even though the one time order date was back in February, they were happy to get me on the list just a few weeks ago...
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: PreferrablyWood on June 25, 2016, 09:37 AM
Not knocking all the great squares on offer throughout this post but if the original poster or anyone else hasn't purchased a square for their MFT but has the Festool MFS profiles, simply join them into a rectangle and use that. All the sides are very accurate and when assembled you'll get a pretty darn good square for nix.
I believe there is a "Setting up your MFT" guide in the Festools links page here that shows it and other handy info within it too. [smile]

Yes i'm getting the MFS setup, as it's rather more expensive then I'd like if it can do more things, then alls good. In another thread I've got going in the wrong topic I've got it down to getting two sets of the MFS 400, and a set MFS 1000 extensions, if I find  need the MFS 700 length I'll get it later.. Otherwise if I still need an additional square I'll go for a large engineers square as Peter Parfitt has suggested..
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: TrophyJoe on June 27, 2016, 12:15 AM
Recently bought the Anderson square. Dead on accurate and hefty--no thin alum or steel blades. Shipping was worth it because they did an outstanding job of packing it and it arrived in perfect condition. Highly recommended and an excellent value, even with the shipping.

I just wish there was an option for a bigger version, say 24" x 32".
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Anderson-Plywood on July 15, 2016, 02:08 PM
Thanks much for your comment! :)
We are glad you liked it.
The material we used is Euro-Color-Ply Phenolic plywood.

Recently bought the Anderson square. Dead on accurate and hefty--no thin alum or steel blades. Shipping was worth it because they did an outstanding job of packing it and it arrived in perfect condition. Highly recommended and an excellent value, even with the shipping.

I just wish there was an option for a bigger version, say 24" x 32".
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: geoffshep on July 15, 2016, 02:46 PM
You could try this - it always works  [big grin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB0MBGiX8TQ
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Anderson-Plywood on January 16, 2017, 01:27 PM
lol..
I love the magic square..
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Anderson-Plywood on April 25, 2017, 02:00 AM
We have a promo on the MFT square for a limited time!
Check it out!

Anderson Plywood's Layout Square for MFT Table (http://www.andersonplywood.com/square-for-festool-mft-square/) is made from 3/4" Phenolic Plywood:

(http://images.nitrosell.com/product_images/17/4140/largealt2-Square.jpg) (http://www.andersonplywood.com/square-for-festool-mft-square/)
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: jdw101 on April 25, 2017, 10:12 AM
Woodpeckers 1281 square, it's what they used in the end user classes for years.

http://www.woodpeck.com/1281.html (http://www.woodpeck.com/1281.html)

You can get them at woodcraft and most woodworking stores

I have that square, it's an amazing product.  Very expensive.  I also have lots of other options including the Quas dogs and lots of squares from Woodpecker and others.  I think you could make do with a much less fancy square for sure and the Quas dogs to me seem like a perfect solution.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: DrD on April 25, 2017, 02:05 PM
Boy this thread has been going on for some time now, and with a lot of very useful ideas.  All this time I have been trying to see what's best for my needs in my shop by following this thread.  I do like to have reasonable, read eyeball, precision in cut angles and lengths, and as long as all four sides of a box are same length and perpendicular to each other, I'm happy.

All of this is to say, I spent a lot of time and money - mostly on Woodpecker stuff - to achieve the desire goal.  Last week I removed all the Festool protractors, fences, guide stops from my MFT/3s, and found Qwas dogs and a good tape measure like a Tajima or a FastCap were all I needed to cut square and to length.  There is 1 hugh provisio - I needed to start with a straight edge on the sheet goods.  After that aligning the straight edge against 2 or 3 Qwas dogs, and backing my fence up to 2 Qwas dogs set perpendicular to the cut edge, I was good to go.  The length of the cut is set by the tape.  Good, quick, and cheap.  Now if only I could find a use for the OTT 26" square!
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Anderson-Plywood on April 30, 2018, 11:50 PM
Good news is that our Layout Square is now available on Amazon.com, and it ships free for Amazon Prime users!
You may use the link in our signature line.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: vkumar on April 30, 2018, 11:58 PM
Nice. I have one in my Amazon cart.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: grbmds on May 02, 2018, 07:01 PM
@shaun.mcc just noticed Woodpeckers has a sale on the 1281 square with free shipping. It’s a great square for all around use and is really square as far as you can tell. I used to use it on my MFT until I bought the MFT square.
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Gunso on May 18, 2018, 05:07 PM
I'm UK based but regularly in Florida working.

If you want to order stuff in the States I will happily bring it back for you. Only real issue is postage in UK. And wether or not you trust me!
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: justard on May 21, 2018, 04:09 AM
Thanks @jobsworth  Let me check it out if they can ship to my location
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: GoingMyWay on May 24, 2018, 04:04 PM
I bought my Anderson Plywood's Layout Square from Amazon on Tuesday.  It just arrived today thanks to the Amazon Prime delivery.  It's a nice product - evidently my MFT/3 was out of square!  Excellent value too.

I was about to buy the Woodpecker's 1281 square from Woodcraft on Sunday, but it was a little too expensive for me at the time. 
Title: Re: What square to buy for MFT/3 squaring?
Post by: Gregor on May 25, 2018, 10:25 AM
Late to the party, but: Festool MFS - has also other nice uses apart from being able to square a MFT/3.