Author Topic: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?  (Read 2340 times)

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Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 4260
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2023, 04:34 PM »
Snip.
FUSA says so right on their website. 

https://www.festoolusa.com/accessory/204309---ll-fis-ct-minimidi-2

Not sure why Lee Valley doesn't acknowledge this.  Maybe they think CT-15 owners are only price shopping and wouldn't spring for the long life bag?  Around here, we know that's not actually the case.

Just noted this from the product description on the LVT site: "Not recommended for fine dust"

I use the CT15 only for wood dust including sanding dust.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1720
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2023, 04:39 PM »
I'm not sure what the threshold for "fine" dust is, but I know that drywall dust is definitely right out.

The theory is that the finer sanding dust may eventually clog the pores and render the bag much less useful.

Are the long life bags machine washable?

Offline six-point socket II

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  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2023, 05:07 PM »
The long life bags were originally meant for use with tools that create more shavings/chippings than actual dust.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2883
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2023, 05:18 PM »
I haven't done this with a Festool bag, but years ago the guys lost the bag clip for our Makita 9924 belt sander.  I solve that by buying a small length of polyethylene tube, tapering the ends and slitting it so that it would slide on just like the original.  I use the same thing to cover my hacksaw in my toolboxes to keep the blade from contacting other tools.

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 4260
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2023, 05:26 PM »
The long life bags were originally meant for use with tools that create more shavings/chippings than actual dust.

Kind regards,
Oliver

I gave the product description another look: "Used only for extraction of dust types that are not hazardous to health."

Sanding dust definitely falls under the hazardous category or else N95 masks aren't sold to woodworkers. I suppose that rules out long-life bags for some woodworkers. But does it really matter since the CT already has the HEPA filter. Perhaps, the very fine dust will clog the filter?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 05:57 PM by ChuckS »

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1720
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2023, 06:16 PM »
The long life bags were originally meant for use with tools that create more shavings/chippings than actual dust.

Kind regards,
Oliver

I gave the product description another look: "Used only for extraction of dust types that are not hazardous to health."

Sanding dust definitely falls under the hazardous category or else N95 masks aren't sold to woodworkers. I suppose that rules out long-life bags for some woodworkers. But does it really matter since the CT already has the HEPA filter. Perhaps, the very fine dust will clog the filter?

It's two things:

The finer the dust, the more likely to clog and create longevity issues for the bag.

The more hazardous the dust, the more likely it is to create longevity issues for the user if they open the bag to the air and release the hazardous dust back out into the environment and the user's face.

To wit, using this bag for lead remediation would be antithetical to most things related to the confinement and encapsulation rules usually required by remediation practices.

Offline six-point socket II

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  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2023, 06:57 PM »
@ChuckS

Please remember that these extractors and accessories/consumables are designed/engineered and made in Germany, to be used by tradesman in a commercial setting under "jurisdiction" of the state owned accident prevention and insurance association.

For certain tradesman, especially but not limited to those employed, there are certain rules set out by the state owned insurer, they and the employer need to abide by. My command of the english language is not nearly sufficient to go into all these details.

But in this context dust classifications exist:

L = light hazard
M = medium hazard
H = high hazard

Longlife filter bags are only to be used for L classification. Basically that rules out any wood dust.

For wood dust M classification is needed. That means not only better filters but for example also an alarm if flow is obstructed among other things and that the filter bag can be disposed off (close to) dust free. Hence the instructions to close the lid before taking out the filter bag.

With H classification dust free disposal is a must.

Festool's (other's as well) extractors are special in that regard, that even the L classification extractors come with M classification filters installed.

So what you do when you dispose the contents of the long life bag, you expose yourself to the dust again. Of course you can avoid some, you can wear PPE - but basically all measures you took beforehand are now nil and void.

Festool has no choice but to say L classification only for the long life bags. And that deems them pretty much unusable in a German commercial setting when employees and employer are insured by/ fall under the "jurisdiction" of the state owned accident prevention and insurance association.

The broad consensus I have heard & read over the years is that with tools like planers and the like you can use the long life bag because there is much less dust/fine dust compared to sanding. It's still not permitted by the insurer, but everyone who does not fall under their "jurisdiction" is obviously free to do it. And the long life bags work very, very well for that - many, many people tradesman and hobbyists alike do it.

With a lot of fine dust, and plaster ist by far worst, the long life bags will clog. You will not notice immediately but over time. You can try to wash them, some use pressured air, you can use the manual filter cleaning on the extractor to really hit that bag hard - but at some point they are just done - because they are not meant to work with fine dust. And again, with most methods of trying to clean them, you expose yourself to the dust again that it was supposed to keep in first place.

I take this very, very seriously because I have seen, through my own bodily functions, what happens when you have been exposed to this dust. (I snotted violet for days after sanding Dalbergia cearensis without any pre cautions, and another time black because I went through multiple cutting discs on an angle grinder, both times without any precautions/PPE because I simply didn't know better back then.)

This is really not about having a certain type filter in your extractor, that is not the problem. The filter inside your extractor will hold the dust inside. It's solely about the exposure when emptying and trying to clean either of the bags. From a health and safety perspective it makes no sense to first collect and contain everything, but then expose yourself to it while disposing or cleaning.

For the same reason Festool offers bags for the separator. Disposal is "regulated" on M classification as I said before, without them the separator is not rated M anymore. And again, use the separator only with a planer (or other more shaving/chipping creating tools) and go without that bag, just like so many do with the DD, no problem. Fine dust in either without a bag to dispose it? No, thanks.

Kind regards,
Oliver
« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 07:00 PM by six-point socket II »
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1733
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2023, 07:02 PM »
The long life bags were originally meant for use with tools that create more shavings/chippings than actual dust.

Kind regards,
Oliver

I gave the product description another look: "Used only for extraction of dust types that are not hazardous to health."

Sanding dust definitely falls under the hazardous category or else N95 masks aren't sold to woodworkers. I suppose that rules out long-life bags for some woodworkers. But does it really matter since the CT already has the HEPA filter. Perhaps, the very fine dust will clog the filter?

It's two things:

The finer the dust, the more likely to clog and create longevity issues for the bag.

The more hazardous the dust, the more likely it is to create longevity issues for the user if they open the bag to the air and release the hazardous dust back out into the environment and the user's face.

To wit, using this bag for lead remediation would be antithetical to most things related to the confinement and encapsulation rules usually required by remediation practices.

Way better & straight to the point, than my post. Thank you!

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 4260
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2023, 04:43 PM »
Emptying a CT bag is absolutely no different from emptying a dust collector canvas bag, which I do several times a year. Here is how I did the CT15 bag "dust airborne-free" -- no I didn't wear a mask when doing it, nor do I when dealing with the d.c. canvas bag.

   

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Roll and hold the top of the bag and yard waste bag together, and dump the dust to the bottom of the bag. Give it a light shake -- you don't want to disturb the fine dust in the bottom to rise up. I'll do the same for the dc bag later using the same yard waste bag.

Since I've just put in a new bag, it'll be a couple of years before I will reuse this modified bag, and then another couple years later to find out how good the concept of reusing is. I think my plan is to reuse each bag once or twice before ditching it. (Will those binder clips be good enough (an idea borrowed from luvmytoolz)? Little clue. I'll use it when the time comes, and evaluate it after the first couple of uses.)

Anyone who is creating a cloud of dust when changing their 1 or 2 HP dust collector bag is...not doing it right.


« Last Edit: January 28, 2023, 06:03 PM by ChuckS »

Offline luvmytoolz

  • Posts: 390
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2023, 07:13 PM »
Roll and hold the top of the bag and yard waste bag together, and dump the dust to the bottom of the bag. Give it a light shake -- you don't want to disturb the fine dust in the bottom to rise up. I'll do the same for the dc bag later using the same yard waste bag.

Since I've just put in a new bag, it'll be a couple of years before I will reuse this modified bag, and then another couple years later to find out how good the concept of reusing is. I think my plan is to reuse each bag once or twice before ditching it. (Will those binder clips be good enough (an idea borrowed from luvmytoolz)? Little clue. I'll use it when the time comes, and evaluate it after the first couple of uses.)

Anyone who is creating a cloud of dust when changing their 1 or 2 HP dust collector bag is...not doing it right.

I don't know if bulldog clips will be strong enough, I just used two offcut strips of wood with 3 screws and wingnuts for my 38L bag for the SR5E. From memory I did try clips first but when the bag got pretty full it blew them off. Maybe with a Midi/15 it might be okay, but I suspect not. Clamping this way does work a treat though, very simple.

I see comments about "so cheap why bother re-using", maybe in the US, but in OZ they certainly aren't cheap. Some of them go around $25-$30 for each bag. Yeah we get ripped off here!

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2023, 07:21 PM »
If the binder clips failed, I'd seal it with duct tape, then strips and clips.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2023, 06:48 AM by ChuckS »

Offline NiteWalkerGR

  • Posts: 150
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2023, 09:35 PM »
I see comments about "so cheap why bother re-using", maybe in the US, but in OZ they certainly aren't cheap. Some of them go around $25-$30 for each bag. Yeah we get ripped off here!
Yikes. In that case I'd add a separator for sure.

Offline luvmytoolz

  • Posts: 390
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2023, 09:57 PM »
I see comments about "so cheap why bother re-using", maybe in the US, but in OZ they certainly aren't cheap. Some of them go around $25-$30 for each bag. Yeah we get ripped off here!
Yikes. In that case I'd add a separator for sure.

I've got 3 DD's and they are worth their weight in gold so far as I'm concerned, but one is permanently hooked up to my CNC, the others are in the sheds, but there's lots of times I need to move my old SR5E around and lugging the DD with it is a bit cumbersome and not real practical, so clamping the end of the bag is a great money saver. At @$20 per bag minimum, I reckon I've saved countless thousands over the last 40 or so years of use.

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 2353
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2023, 10:24 AM »

I see comments about "so cheap why bother re-using", maybe in the US, but in OZ they certainly aren't cheap. Some of them go around $25-$30 for each bag. Yeah we get ripped off here!

Ouch, yeah I see your point. Here in the US, you can get 5 pack of Power-tech (off-brand but they work fine) for less than you are paying for 1. It's about $4 each and that delivered.
The genuine Festool ones are a little over twice that, about $9 each, still delivered.
It's gotta be the shipping that's costing you guys. Take an already expensive thing, then make it worse  [unsure]
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1010F
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400/ LR32, FS1900, FS 2424/ LR32, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set, Bluetooth remote
CT15
RO90
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Offline Packard

  • Posts: 1904
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2023, 12:23 PM »
For many years, I sold hardware to bag house filter manufacturers that existed because the replacement filters were so expensive from the original manufacturer.

Baghouse filters, are huge versions of shop based dust collection filter.  They use they use highly specific non-woven fabric for this.  The shops that I sold to, were basically “cut and sew” operations.  That is, the startup cost to start one of those businesses is a sewing machine and a commercial fabric cutter.

Some of the baghouse filters cost upwards of $1,500.00 and cannot be cleaned and re-used. Most can be cleaned, but they eventually wear out.

There are major industries that would have to cease production if they could not get the required baghouse filter. 

For example, drug companies grind up components and mix them together.  If the airborne medications were not captured, the employees would get sick or die.

Concrete manufacturers cannot produce the lime mix without filtration for the same reasons.

You would probably have to order 50 bags at a time to approach one of these aftermarket vendors.  If you could get together a bunch of users, you could share the expense.

That would beg two questions:

1.  Is the design patent protected and is it legal to replicate it?
2.  Would soliciting other FOG members to join you get you kicked off this site?

In any event, sewing is the single best way to seal these seams.  Having access to a sewing machine can elevate your wood work, especially if you make padded benches or chairs.  The machines are not very expensive, and are no more difficult to use than a band saw (with similar skills required).

I could probably get the name of a aftermarket baghouse filter manufacturer if anyone is interested in that approach.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 2085
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2023, 04:49 PM »
Performance and price aside, how is this different from the long life bags? I'd still be wearing a dust mask and some goggles for either.

Well, because, regular CT bags aren't made to be reused, I think. If they were, they'd be sold as reusable bags.
Randy

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 4260
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2023, 05:26 PM »
Anyone interested in buying reusable CT bags (CT15, CT26, etc.) may check out the eBay, such as this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/174575086052

Offline JINRO

  • Posts: 166
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2023, 06:07 PM »
I hust got this few weeks ago and seems to work great. Much easier to empty the bag compared to Festool one.
(Reusable dust Bag for Festool Mini and Midi dust extractors (MIDI-2) https://a.co/d/atXrCwP)

Offline luvmytoolz

  • Posts: 390
Re: Reusing CT bags -- Anyone try this or have a better method?
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2023, 06:41 PM »

I see comments about "so cheap why bother re-using", maybe in the US, but in OZ they certainly aren't cheap. Some of them go around $25-$30 for each bag. Yeah we get ripped off here!

Ouch, yeah I see your point. Here in the US, you can get 5 pack of Power-tech (off-brand but they work fine) for less than you are paying for 1. It's about $4 each and that delivered.
The genuine Festool ones are a little over twice that, about $9 each, still delivered.
It's gotta be the shipping that's costing you guys. Take an already expensive thing, then make it worse  [unsure]

Believe it or not, because the bag costs are so high, they usually qualify for free shipping with some vendors!

I bought a L/L bag for my CT36 which was around $300 on special, and one for my wifes midi which was around $275 from memory. This pic is the current price for the CT36 bags, which aren't much more expensive than the midi's.

Bearing in mind the cost for my 40+ year old SR5E for bags is so eye watering I'd need to sell a kidney to fund a pack!
« Last Edit: January 29, 2023, 06:46 PM by luvmytoolz »