Author Topic: High gloss laminate and conturo edgebanding.  (Read 511 times)

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Offline afish

  • Posts: 1325
High gloss laminate and conturo edgebanding.
« on: August 04, 2022, 05:25 PM »
Wasnt really sure were to stick this post so here it is.  I just started doing some 3b maxxigloss sheets and white mirror pvc edgebanding.  Here is the problem. 
A. the material has a very thin plastic film that is somewhat tacky and not stuck really good so it doesnt like things such as router bases slid along it to much. 
B. The glue from the conturo turns into a gummy mess with the MFK and still gets under the protective film and requires a lot of very tedious cleaning while trying not to damage the gloss surface. 
C. I cant really use my Virutex hand razor trimmer like I usually use on pvc and melamine or laminate do to the protective film balling up and tearing or damaging the gloss surface.

So after some experimenting I ordered a up cut spiral flush trim to use in combo with a little lipper ( I only had a down cut on hand) My hope with the upcut is it will help pull the glue away from the panels fished surface more. I will know more tomorrow but thats the hope.

I also ordered the parts to convert my MFK base to the EQ/B base and will try using the vertical base in a one step operation (flush trim and roundover) even though thats not normal for me.  However if I lay some thin laminate over the panels face and adjust the cutter a little deeper it might work well to give me a smooth slick surface to slide the router on and hopefully get less gummy glue all over. 

I know there is only a handful of people on here that might have experience with these issues but anything else I havent thought of? 

Im also curious if anyone has input on pvc vs. acrylic edgebanding?  Im not sure if the pvc tends to melt or get gummy more than the acrylic or if the acrylic would be easier to work with over the PVC for some reason.  Im am able to get it to work as is but its a PITA for sure and I can see some wasted material in my future for sure but I really hope I can get this done easier and faster than I did today. 

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Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1652
Re: High gloss laminate and conturo edgebanding.
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2022, 06:10 PM »
High gloss laminate is a PITA, no matter how you deal with it. I generally find that it is better to get rid of the film. It just causes problems. It does take some careful handling though. PVC edgebanding is not so bad, as long as you stay away from the super thin stuff. 1mm seems to be the sweet spot, thin enough to cut easily, but thick enough to have some substance.
Gloss edgebanding does bring some complexity to it too. I usually use a router that has the ability to have a follower bearing, rather than one attached to the bit. The high speed of a mounted bearing can/will make a mark during the initial touch. Up spiral bits pull the chips away from the bit, but they can also raise a burr (or even tear the surface).
I use down spiral bits for this type of thing, for that reason. The metal (foil) type laminates act in a very similar manner and I use them much more frequently. The thing about down spiral is that they throw the junk into the bearing. You have to be much more aware of that and keep things clean, stopping often if needed.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1010F
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75
Shaper Origin/Workstation
MFT clamps set

Offline afish

  • Posts: 1325
Re: High gloss laminate and conturo edgebanding.
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2022, 08:25 PM »
thanks for responding CRG.  I didnt even try the down cut since I knew it would gum up the bearing for sure.  I thought about the tearing/chipping issue but I hope the pvc is soft enough not to have those issues.  I may have to do this in 2 steps. step 1 remove 90% with the upcut spiral and little lipper by laying some v32 over the face then follow up with the festool 1mm roundover bit that is designed to flush trim and roundover in one. my hopes is since it will only be removing a small amount I wont have as much gummed up glue.  yes this is 1mm banding I dont go anywhere near the .5 mil stuff.  This high gloss pvc banding is new to me it has a protective film and that hasnt caused any issues yet it stays stuck better than the film on the panel.  It stands up to the bearing without issue so far but tje EQ/b base does have bearing brake. I even thought about miterfolding the edges so I wouldnt have to edgeband it and the laminating the back but the panel has the high gloss on one side and a melamine coating on the other so I would need to glue and fold all the edges and build some type of jig to hold the edges while it dried the put them back on the cnc with a fly cutter to flatten the back and remove the melamine coating so the laminate will stick. however the thought of trying to glue up all the door and drawer fronts and waiting for glue drying would be way to much...

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 9874
Re: High gloss laminate and conturo edgebanding.
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2022, 08:29 PM »
I usually use a router that has the ability to have a follower bearing, rather than one attached to the bit. The high speed of a mounted bearing can/will make a mark during the initial touch. Up spiral bits pull the chips away from the bit, but they can also raise a burr (or even tear the surface).

Have you tried the triangular Delrin bearings from CMT or the square Delrin/Teflon bearings from Amana & Whiteside?

« Last Edit: August 04, 2022, 08:35 PM by Cheese »

Offline afish

  • Posts: 1325
Re: High gloss laminate and conturo edgebanding.
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2022, 08:50 PM »
I use the square bearing on laminate/spray glue or epoxy combo and like them.  The issue isnt really the bearing in this situation.  I tried the mfk with horz. base first but even turning the rpms way down and dust collection on the heat reactivates the glue from the conturo and I get a line about 3/16 of goo all the way around the panel that is a serious PITA to get off without damaging the high gloss finish.  my hope of keeping the film on so the glue would not stick to the face is a no go the glue still gets under it anyways. 

Offline Laminator

  • Posts: 373
Re: High gloss laminate and conturo edgebanding.
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2022, 08:37 AM »
I recommend the CMT bit with the triangle bearing that Cheese referred to.
  I have not experienced the Conturo glue smearing like you speak of but if it is a thin film of glue, lacquer thinner and a rag should remove it easily.  High gloss laminate is difficult to use for sure. I've always wondered about buffing it like an automobile lol.

Offline afish

  • Posts: 1325
Re: High gloss laminate and conturo edgebanding.
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2022, 11:33 AM »
The Delrin bearings do work well in certain situations.  The panels are already laminated with the high gloss coating. I am only applying the edge banding. If I was trying to trim the face sheet to the edge it would be much easier.  Either way I think I have found a system that works which is the .25" upcut spiral in the mfk with the 1.5° horz. base.  followed by the 1mm radius bit in a cordless trimmer.  The spiral bit seems to do a muuuch better job at pulling the chips and glue away than the regular bit festool designed for the mfk.  and no it was not just a "thin film" of glue.  It was an unacceptable amount IMO and made a big mess re-melting to the face. 

Yes you can buff the panel too but its similar to base coat clear coat on a car.  There is a colored film with a thin clear coat over it to provide the gloss the entire coating (color and clear) is probably only .006" ish thick so any sort of cutter or scraper mishap its all over.  Small scuffs yes buff out but the margin for error is extremely small. I used to spray the high gloss but wanted to move away from finishing do to space limitations the jury is still out if that was a smart move.   

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1652
Re: High gloss laminate and conturo edgebanding.
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2022, 07:59 PM »
I have used both of the non-round bearing options. The square one and the triangular one from CMT both seem to work ok. That noise they make when first making contact is a bit unnerving though. Using them on actual edgebanding is fine, they may not perform as well against an adjacent laminated surface though. If there is any overspray of the contact adhesive, they don't deal with it so well. This is a pretty common thing in a cabinet shop. Spraying contact is the only way to go, as it is by far the fastest. You do your best to spray "clean", but it still happens. Since clean-up is quick and easy, it has become the standard.
With so many different situations to deal with, I go at each with whatever seems the best at the time. MFK700 wins in many cases, but not even close to all.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1010F
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75
Shaper Origin/Workstation
MFT clamps set