Author Topic: 45 degree angle cuts  (Read 1982 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 1878
45 degree angle cuts
« on: November 28, 2022, 04:41 PM »
I’ve had my Festool track saw for about 3 years now but all I have ever done is cuts with the blade set at 90 degrees.

I now want to make a cabinet with mitered corners.  I could simply make 90 degree cuts and then bring it to the table saw to make the miter trims.  But if it is no more difficult to make 45 degree angle cuts with the track saw, then that would be preferable. 

Is there anything I have to watch out for?

I will be making  16” x 16” blanks, mitered at two opposite edges to be joined with about a 6” x 16” piece on both sides.  This will be wall mounted and used as an night stand.  There will be two; one on either side of the bed.

I have a 32” and two 55” tracks.  For this, I would probably use the 32” unless there is some reason not to.

I have two TSO squaring arms with parallel guides also.

Any tips or cautions would be appreciated.

I’ve done this type of joint many times.  I usually cut to the exact size first with the table saw blades set at 90 degrees.  Then I use a sacrificial fence and cut off the miters. 

But I am planning on a couple of very wide low cabinets (72” wide x 16” deep).  Trying to make the miters like I have been on a piece that long would be very challenging and I would likely fail.  I would need a sliding table saw to do that easily.  (Or the track saw.)

So the night tables are sort of a trial balloon—for the learning curve.

Any tips would be appreciated.

Packard

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 2330
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2022, 05:41 PM »
Practice it on some scrap first. There is a bit of a learning curve to it.
You need to be clamped firmly, but be very aware to not distort the track while clamping.
Have enough track on both sides of the cut. You need to be fully plunged before making contact and be sure to follow through fully. I like to have a hand on the base plate as I go.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1010F
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400/ LR32, FS1900, FS 2424/ LR32, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set, Bluetooth remote
CT15
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
RTS 400
TS75
Shaper Origin/Workstation/Plate
MFT clamps set
Installers set
Centrotech organizer set
Socket/Ratchet set
Pliers set

Online Lincoln

  • Posts: 308
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2022, 06:03 PM »
I prefer a thick kerf blade in general, but in particular when cutting bevels/mitres.

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 1878
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2022, 06:18 PM »
Thanks for the replies.

The cuts will be 16”, just like the larger cabinet.  The pieces will be easier to handle because they are small.

If I had to make the angle cuts on the table saw, I would change the design.  The only reason this seems possible is because I have the track saw.

I should be able to try this later this week or the beginning of next week.

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 3112
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2022, 08:50 PM »
I’d set up so you can clamp the track to the wood on each end. The saw at 45 degrees will have a tendency to tilt off the rail so secure the rail and concentrate on a consistent down force on the saw to the track as you cut through the pieces. 

Check your angles.  Better to have an angle tight at the corner so you can hide any potential gaps from a cut less than 45 degrees. 

Think about cleanup.  I made a sanding block with a 45 piece attached to it and adhesive sandpaper on the angle so I could clean up any saw marks consistently after cutting.  That might be a consideration for you if your mitered corners will be exposed.  In my case, I did waterfall cuts across pieces to make a consistent grain pattern across the top and down the two sides as well as relief 45 degree cuts on the front edges for a mid-century look.

I assume you are using dominoes on the angles.  Just make sure that you sand them enough so that clamping the case up gives you freedom to easily pull the pieces together.  I also place painters tape on the inside of each 45 to capture any squeeze out and then wipe it down before the glue is fully dry.

You might even consider ripping longer pieces at 45 first and then crosscut so you get more consistent cuts. 

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5869
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2022, 10:56 PM »
A lot of good points above. I second especially Neil’s suggestion to make the bevel cut first, bigger than the finished piece, and make the easier cuts referenced from the critical edge.

If you’ve already cut the stock down to 16” you should tape some scraps to both fore and aft edges of the piece and use a longer rail to make the cut so that you get more comfortable with the way you hold the saw before the blade gets to the real piece and the saws is past the piece before you have to start thinking of coming to a stop.

When joining two mitered pieces such that clamping is not possible I use the tape method. But first each miter gets a few swipes with 80 grit abrasive down the middle to remove a little wood so the little bit of pressure the stretched tape provides is concentrated on the edges.

Offline Festoller

  • Posts: 241
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2022, 03:41 AM »
I found this video a while ago. It's for beams, but very helpful for long angle cuts in general.

The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be. -Douglas Adams-

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1281
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2022, 05:20 AM »
I found this video a while ago. It's for beams, but very helpful for long angle cuts in general.


That is one GREAT video!

OT:
I will probably never understand is why someone destroy that perfectly nice flat ceiling with fake beams ... and then even have them made from perfectly dried and straight oak, so there is no doubt these are fake from the first look. But hey, I guess that is why us Central Europeans will never understand the British-American culture prerogatives. And vice versa.

Over here, when someone wants fake beams for the atmosphere, they would put some some raw construction timber up there and put a non-straight fake wooden ceiling between them. Very specifically done soe the beams and celing are not perfectly straight as that just looks obviously fake, losing the desired ambience. Real load-bearing beams are never perfect in their surface ... and never straight. But hey, if one likes it.
The Machine has no brains. Use Yours!

Offline woodwise

  • Posts: 44
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2022, 07:57 AM »
The video doesn't show for me... Probably computer or browser related but could someone add a direct link?

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 12606
  • No Power Tools Required
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2022, 09:00 AM »

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3927
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2022, 09:31 AM »
"But if it is no more difficult to make 45 degree angle cuts with the track saw, then that would be preferable."

There are countless posts on this site citing difficulties making angled bevels using a track saw.

I often break down lumber and plywood using the track saw and do finish cuts on a really big, stable, precision table saw. I get repeatable precision results every time.

I know there are highly skilled people who can make repeated furniture grade bevel cuts with a track saw, but many people cannot.
Birdhunter

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 4246
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2022, 09:45 AM »
+1 on Birdhunter's remark about making fine furniture with a tracksaw. Every furniture maker -- hobbyist or full-time -- I personally know uses a track saw (if they have one, most don't) to break down sheet goods or rough lumber, not to build furniture pieces.

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 1878
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2022, 09:46 AM »
I use a system from an article I read in Fine Woodworking where I cut the piece to the finished size first and then remove the miter waste as a second operation.  But I am planning on making a 16” deep by 72” wide cabinet with the miters on the 16” side.  I would have a lot of difficulty making that trim cut on my table saw. 

The alternative is to use a router bit designed for this purpose, a $50.00 purchase and one that would be likely rarely used.  I will try the miter cuts on the smaller pieces and see how it goes.

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 4246
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2022, 09:55 AM »
If the miters are the short ends, the track saw can handle them for sure.

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 1878
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2022, 10:17 AM »
The miters would be on the short end.  If it were on the long side, it would be an easy job on the table saw.

But on the short side, I would need a larger sled, and I would have to move my table saw as I only have about 5 feet of clearance on the side of the fence. 

I make these cuts on my driveway, so I am waiting for a day with no rain.  It looks like Thursday or Friday. 

I may still go with the router bit if this does not work out well. 


Offline mino

  • Posts: 1281
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2022, 10:50 AM »
+1 on Birdhunter's remark about making fine furniture with a tracksaw. Every furniture maker -- hobbyist or full-time -- I personally know uses a track saw (if they have one, most don't) to break down sheet goods or rough lumber, not to build furniture pieces.
Then I would advise all those people to just skip Festool, the FS/2 rails system, and most of the TSO pieces this forum is all on.
/s

Paying for the Festool TS series, and more so the FS/2 system accessories, is IMO an uttter waste if one relegates them as "rough cut" tools.

As for the 45-degree bevels, it is perfectly possible to make them with the TS55.
For big pieces, I would argue it is even easier than handling those big pieces on a TS. Vice versa, for small pieces it is definitely easier and also potentialy more accurate to handle them on a (good) table saw. Same for long wide pieces => TS55, very narrow pieces => tables saw.


Now, I am anything but a pro.
Just an IT guy, fiddling with furniture stuff because there are very few (good) cabinetmakers around here (historical reasons).

But about half a year into owning my TSC55, I already figured Makita rails are junk for accuracy and was seeing <0.2mm (0.01") deviation across 2-meter (7') cuts with just the TSC55, an FS/2 rail and a good reference-based pencil mark technique. I challenge anyone getting significantly better results on small table saw.

Sure, it took me a couple tries with shop furniture to figure where my technique needed improvement. But once I got it sorted, I know I would need a $10k slider to get measurably better results. And even then it would be anything but certain.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 08:18 AM by mino »
The Machine has no brains. Use Yours!

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 4246
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2022, 11:12 AM »
+1 on Birdhunter's remark about making fine furniture with a tracksaw. Every furniture maker -- hobbyist or full-time -- I personally know uses a track saw (if they have one, most don't) to break down sheet goods or rough lumber, not to build furniture pieces.
Then I would advise all those people to just skip Festool, the FS/2 rails system, and most of the TSO pieces this forum is all on.
/s
Snip.

They do. Most furniture shops I've visited don't have any track saws, especially the older folks'. Two months ago, I went this shop (the guy built not only the shop, but also his house in the 80s) on a huge acreage:



Almost without exceptions, table saws (sliders in minority) are what they use.

He stores his lumber...below ground under his shop!






« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 11:16 AM by ChuckS »

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1281
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2022, 12:50 PM »
They do. Most furniture shops I've visited don't have any track saws, especially the older folks'. Two months ago, I went this shop (the guy built not only the shop, but also his house in the 80s) on a huge acreage:
...
And that is absolutely understandable. Actually even optimal, as they already have the tools and the workflow built-up for what they need to do.
Accurate tracksaws were not really a thing just 20 yrs ago. heck, outside the Festool and Maffel "islands", they were not a thing 5 years ago. It is all too easy forgetting that the TSO parallel guides are just a couple years old and the only reasonable tracksaw, besides Festool, were pretty much the Makitas. And that is just 5 yrs, ago (!).

In the same way, many pros who do WW for some time still do not use dust extraction with hand power tools. Yet it does not make using dust extraction on hand tools a bad idea.

Just this week we had a Miss come do some stuff in our community shop. She was doing furniture restorations 10 yrs ago, so was pretty well versed overall, way more than me .. Except, what I completely missed, she had no clue one can work dust-free with wood. So, she did not use any dust extraction when sanding all day ... the whole place was covered in micro-dust, including the computers, 3D printers, you name it. She literally did not consider the possibility, so just completely ignored the vacs and went ahead just wearing a respirator. In one day worth of work, she generated about 2-3 manweeks of cleanup effort. Duh. But it does not means she is a bad craftsman. The stuff she was repairing turned out wonderful.

My point was:
When one has /or intends to/ invest in the Festool saw and rails kit, telling to not use it for what it was purchased for is kinda disingenuous.

Instead, one should be either pointed to not buy it, if strictly wants to just do rough work or should be advised on how to properly use it to actually make it work the way it is suppossed to. Buying expensive precise kit, only to then not take advantage of the precision which is 50% the price, is just not a good strategy.


On topic:
Getting perfect angle cuts from a Festool tracksaw on the FS/2 does require a bit more technique than with a table saw. Or, to be more precise, it required *different* skills to get the results. These are different tools, after all.

But, is it possible ? Definitely!
Is it the better choice? Depends!

Depends heavily on other variables which can skew the optimal solution either way, or even a third way.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 07:57 AM by mino »
The Machine has no brains. Use Yours!

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 4246
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2022, 12:58 PM »
Snip.
On topic:
Getting perfect angle cuts from a Festool tracksaw on the FS/2 does require a bit more technique than with a table saw. Snip.

I think this is exactly the point that Birdhunter is driving at in his post, which I happen to agree with. A skilled and seasoned track saw user can operate it like an extension of her/his arm and do wonderful things. Things begin to look complicated (enter all kinds of track saw accessories and hacks) when an average track saw owner tries to do things that the track saw is not equipped to do well.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 01:01 PM by ChuckS »

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3927
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2022, 01:02 PM »
A few months ago, I completed a dresser that had a top about 5 feet by 30” all quarter sawn white oak. I thought about using a 45 degree joint top to sides as my “client” didn’t want the top to over hang the sides. I knew the chances of getting perfect bevels was slim so I backed off the idea. Ended up with a 1/8” overhang. The “client” loved the look.
Birdhunter

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5869
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2022, 01:34 PM »
I watched the video above, something I rarely do but this one is very good.

Apropos the debate about cutting bevels with the track saw vs. the table saw (he had a portable tablesaw on the job site) one of the white oak boards he used was seriously bowed and couldn’t be successfully run through a tablesaw, especially not a slider, unless there is a way to completely press out the bow. Maybe the tablesaw with a stock feeder?

He discussed how the flexible track conforms to the bow and allows the saw to maintain the proper relationship to the stock so the finished board still has straight edges despite the bow.

The guy in the video has excellent skill in using the tracksaw. He cuts 14 foot bevels (suitable for the taped miter fold assembly) using a single 2700mm track and no clamps. And the results look good.

Offline 4nthony

  • Posts: 483
    • Slack for Recon Tools
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2022, 02:27 PM »
The guy in the video has excellent skill in using the tracksaw. He cuts 14 foot bevels (suitable for the taped miter fold assembly) using a single 2700mm track and no clamps. And the results look good.

I learned quite a bit from that video.

He's using the Freud 14T blade which has a slightly wider kerf than the 2.2 Festool blades. I'm guessing he's committed to Freud blades or do you think he's swapping between Festool and Freud blades and ignoring the slight difference in how his splinter guard is cut?
Recon Tool Notifications

Anthony

"The best way to get a correct answer on the internet is to post an obviously wrong answer and wait for someone to correct you." - Kevin Kelly

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5869
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2022, 03:15 PM »
The guy in the video has excellent skill in using the tracksaw. He cuts 14 foot bevels (suitable for the taped miter fold assembly) using a single 2700mm track and no clamps. And the results look good.

I learned quite a bit from that video.

He's using the Freud 14T blade which has a slightly wider kerf than the 2.2 Festool blades. I'm guessing he's committed to Freud blades or do you think he's swapping between Festool and Freud blades and ignoring the slight difference in how his splinter guard is cut?

Whether the Freud blade cuts the splinter guard depends on the offset of the teeth, which depends on the thickness of the blank in addition to the tooth (kerf) thickness.

If it did cut the splinter guard that might be a good thing since he is setting the splinter guard to the snapped chalk line.

note that he is setting the saw angle to 45.5* so the edges of the bevels are more likely to close together, especially after burnishing.

The takeaway for me (from the video) is to burnish through the tape while the glue is wet and the wood is more pliable.

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 2330
Re: 45 degree angle cuts
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2022, 06:04 PM »
Not a "furniture shop", but I definitely use my tracksaws as a pro in a cabinet shop. I agree 100% with mino's statement about not using them as designed. I'm sure I have commented on this before with so many YouTube woodworkers doing the break-down with a tracksaw and then make the final cuts with a table saw. Seems silly to me. You can get perfectly usable cuts directly from the TS and just move on.
Using the proper TCG blade, I regularly make glue-seam-ready cuts with a TS. It really is a finish cut tool.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1010F
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400/ LR32, FS1900, FS 2424/ LR32, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set, Bluetooth remote
CT15
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
RTS 400
TS75
Shaper Origin/Workstation/Plate
MFT clamps set
Installers set
Centrotech organizer set
Socket/Ratchet set
Pliers set