Author Topic: new multi battery charger inverter power supply  (Read 20235 times)

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Offline 10eighty

  • Posts: 4
new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« on: March 18, 2020, 04:07 AM »
OK so here is an interesting rumour
Festool are supposedly working on a multiple battery charger systainer that has a built in inverter enabling it to output as a stand alone 240/110 volt supply for there power tools
This means you could step on site with 2/3/4 batteries in this unit and it could supply power without mains power to a series of 240/110 volt tools of you choice without mains power requirements.
No bloody extension leads to run a TS55r rail saw in the middle of a field, no generators nothing.
If this is possible it will be a piece of genius   

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 2041
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2020, 04:58 AM »
Doesn't surprise me, many of the other cordless tool manufacturers have similar products available now.

The DeWalt 1800 watt power station/charger is ~$500 plus batteries, and it's not in a Systainer of course which will be a nice feature of the FT version. A pair of DeWalt 60V FlexVOLT batteries will set you back another ~$250.

The EGO 56V 3000 Watt (peak, 2000W continuous) Power Station comes with two EGO 56V 7.5AH batteries and is ~$999. It can use up to four of their batteries. Looking through the manual I did not find a table that gave projected run times with different battery combinations, not even a statement that with four 7.5AH batteries and a 2000W load you can expect a run time of x, which is a bit disconcerting. I'd like a better idea of what I can expect for my $1000 than that.

Do you know if the FT unit will function as a power hub too. Meaning if mains power is available can it be used to power multiple corded tools and have ports to charge various voltage batteries. Then when working where mains power is not available would function as an inverter. I wonder what the waveform of the inverter output will be, square wave, modified sine wave, pulsed sine wave, pure sine wave, or something else. It makes a difference to the devices you might want to power form the unit.

I think this will be a nice addition to the FT lineup, and look forward to seeing what they come out with. I'm not sure it is something I will need as I rarely work away from mains power where I can use the charger supplied with my tools to keep the batteries up, and I have a couple portable generators in various sizes so I'm covered there. They are not silent and can't be used indoors which is a big plus but they run for many hours on a tank of fuel.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 04:56 PM by Bob D. »
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 1040
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2020, 09:19 AM »
It will be so much more that the Dewalt setup it won’t be worth even considering. And don’t get caught up thinking you can use your existing batteries. You will be able to use some of them, but won’t be happy with the performance unless you have all max capacity batteries.

I have some 60v max capacity batteries that I bought for some of their tools and have been eyeing up one of these.

Offline usernumber1

  • Posts: 151
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2020, 11:02 AM »
It will be so much more that the Dewalt setup it won’t be worth even considering.

you got some juicy info?

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1750
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2020, 12:02 PM »
The EGO 56V 3000 Watt (peak, 2000W continuous) Power Station comes with two EGO 56V 7.5AH batteries and is ~$999. It can use up to four of their batteries. Looking through the manual I did not find a table that gave projected run times with different battery combinations, not even a statement that with four 7.5AH batteries and a 2000W load you can expect a run time of x, which is a bit disconcerting. I'd like a better idea of what I can expect for my $1000 than that.
56V*7.5Ah = 420Wh in such a battery,
leading to 420Wh / 2000 W = 0.21h or 12.6 minutes of run time,
per battery,
given 2KW continuous load,
minus what is lost to losses (entropy will collect its toll).

I would think a ballpark of 10 minutes would be a reasonable expectation, which would make the system suitable for quite some applications, IMHO.

Also given one can get the EGO thing with two batteries for $999 (and the spec you posted is correct)... impressive, when comparing to eg. https://www.apc.com/shop/de/de/products/APC-Smart-UPS-SRT-3000-VA-Rackmount-230-V/P-SRT3000RMXLI which is factor 3.5 in price but delivers less run time (for the same 2kW load) than what one battery of the EGO system gives.

Nice.

They should add a way to directly hook up a string of solar panels to load the connected batteries, and make that a 240V version [smile]

Offline 10eighty

  • Posts: 4
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2020, 04:06 PM »
I have always thought something like this was possible when you consider solar bank tech
They have been doing similar things for years
The Rep I spoke to was supposed to be off to a festool gathering where they were talking about the intro of this tech he seemed to think it was not far off release
He said it would have ports for charging phones and at a guess maybe run laptops if it was using a sine wave inverter like they have standard on Honda gen sets
I just like the idea of the mobility
I have ten plus 5.2 amp hour batteries and just having a multi charger would be really handy
I have the Hilti charger that does four and the makita that does four 

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5192
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2020, 04:26 PM »
Just for comparison, here’s some specs for the Tesla Powerwall.
Price $6500 not including some other necessities
Usable Capacity
13.5 kWh
Depth of Discharge
100%
Efficiency
90% round-trip
Power
7kW peak / 5kW continuous
Supported Applications
Solar self-consumption
Back-up power
Time-Based control
Off-grid capabilities
Warranty
10 years
Scalable
Up to 10 Powerwalls
Operating Temperature
-4°F to 122°F / -20°C to 50°C
Dimensions
L x W x D: 45.3" x 29.6" x 5.75"
(1150 mm x 753 mm x 147 mm)
Weight
251.3 lbs / 114 kg
Installation
Floor or wall mounted
Indoor or outdoor

Offline William W

  • Posts: 48
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2020, 02:15 PM »
Just came across this on Instagram. A bit more info on the sys powerstation

Offline demographic

  • Posts: 682
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2020, 02:37 PM »
If its 110 volts will it have the decent yellow site plugs or the quite frankly junk American things?

Offline AstroKeith

  • Posts: 190
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2020, 07:17 AM »
Data due to be available from 7th December apparently.
Do hate their drip feeding of "product release" news
'Sys-Powerstation'
Retired engineer/scientist

Offline demographic

  • Posts: 682
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2020, 12:26 PM »
And if it works as a charger does it keep beeping every ten seconds as its charging like the TCL6.
Its bloody irritating if it does. Whoever thought that was a good idea wants locking in a quiet room with it for a few hours. Then battered over the back of the head with a scaffold tube.

Online FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 949
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2020, 12:34 PM »
I too received an email with the same image today.
It seems like a big power bank. Large power banks with inverters seems to pop up from outdoor equipment shops these days too.

If it can both charge and utilise Festool’s batteries to increase output it would be very interesting.
I suspect pricing well above $1000  [scared] - But for the pro, it may be a great addition. The TS may very well be a TSC for site use with this power bank.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline AstroKeith

  • Posts: 190
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2020, 12:41 PM »
If its 110 volts will it have the decent yellow site plugs or the quite frankly junk American things?
The image I posted earlier, seems to show a power outlet that is the same as on their PowerHub. So that might point to a 'mains' in whatever market it is being sold in, so 240V for us in the UK. However that immediately restricts the market by 50% as it excludes all 110V site work. Or will they of both?
Retired engineer/scientist

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7386
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2020, 12:43 PM »
A 220 volt battery pack, I can see how that can be useful. Now I can finally take my guitar amp outside when I go busking on the street.  120 watts metal on Dam square! [big grin] And mine goes to 11.

And if it works as a charger does it keep beeping every ten seconds as its charging like the TCL6.
Its bloody irritating if it does. Whoever thought that was a good idea wants locking in a quiet room with it for a few hours. Then battered over the back of the head with a scaffold tube.

Open the charger, locate the metal thingy that acts as a speaker and cut one if its wires. And maybe be a bit more diplomatic in your criticism.

Online FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 949
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2020, 12:57 PM »
On Makita chargers you can even choose the melody it plays... [wink] [big grin] [big grin]
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Imemiter

  • Posts: 184
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2020, 01:03 PM »
On Makita chargers you can even choose the melody it plays... [wink] [big grin] [big grin]

Suddenly I'm wondering whether I could select different melodies on my twin charger and do mash-ups.
CSX T18+3 TID18 HKC55 OSC18 OS400 OF1010 LR32 DF700 RAS115 DTS400 ETC125 CTSys CTMidi CT-VA

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7386
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2020, 02:38 PM »
On Makita chargers you can even choose the melody it plays... [wink] [big grin] [big grin]

Now why would you need anything but Für Elise ??  [smile]

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8430
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2020, 09:40 AM »

Online FestitaMakool

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Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2020, 09:51 AM »
Hey @Alex Who’s Fur(y) Elise?
Have you decoded the melodies on the chargers?  [blink]  You need to enlighten us.. [big grin]
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8430
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2020, 10:02 AM »
Beethoven...

Offline Alex

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Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2020, 11:14 AM »
Hey @Alex Who’s Fur(y) Elise?
Have you decoded the melodies on the chargers?  [blink]  You need to enlighten us.. [big grin]

Fur Elise is one of the most famous classical pieces, composed by Beethoven for his daughter Elise. It is also the default music on Makita chargers I believe. A carpenter friend of mine has Makita gear and his charger always plays Fur Elise.

Offline demographic

  • Posts: 682
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2020, 12:41 PM »
On Makita chargers you can even choose the melody it plays... [wink] [big grin] [big grin]

It's not so much it playing a sound when its fully charged thats the issue, its the fact that some berk thought it was a good idea for it to beep every ten seconds all the time its charging.

Festools version of Chinese water torture and as I often charge the batteries in the site canteen or office its almost guaranteed to get it switched off before its charged.

I honestly have no idea why someone thought it was a good idea for 8t to do that.

I like the thought of this new powerstation thing, but I liked the idea of the De-Walt version and that never happened in the UK either so I'm not holding my breath for it.

For me it needs to be 110 (or thereabouts) volts output to go with UK site voltage.

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 876
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2020, 02:18 PM »
On Makita chargers you can even choose the melody it plays... [wink] [big grin] [big grin]

It's not so much it playing a sound when its fully charged thats the issue, its the fact that some berk thought it was a good idea for it to beep every ten seconds all the time its charging.

Festools version of Chinese water torture and as I often charge the batteries in the site canteen or office its almost guaranteed to get it switched off before its charged.

I honestly have no idea why someone thought it was a good idea for 8t to do that.

I like the thought of this new powerstation thing, but I liked the idea of the De-Walt version and that never happened in the UK either so I'm not holding my breath for it.

For me it needs to be 110 (or thereabouts) volts output to go with UK site voltage.

100% agree.

Definitely seems like a stupid feature.
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 876
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2020, 02:28 PM »
Kinda excited about this sys power pack! I wonder what the deal will be.

Obviously thing like price and runtime with a tool will be deciding factors. I wonder if it will have the power to run a Vac and a Tool?

"for a guaranteed working day"  Surely that rules out 18v batteries in that little systainer, I'd guess you couldn't get enough 18v batteries in that thing to run a vac and sander for 4 hrs. .

there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline AstroKeith

  • Posts: 190
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2020, 03:47 PM »
Looking at current Lithium battery technology, I suspect they could pack about a single kWh into that systainer. Similar powerbanks are available for about £800 or USD1000 but these are Chinese. So lets say USD2000 minimum for a Festool version?

The 4Ah Festool battery is about 72Wh, so you would need 14 of them to achieve that capacity!

A kWh isn't going to run anything for long continuously. A vac and sander maybe an hour. It would be better suited to cutting, where the 'duty cycle' is on average over a day low. A Kapex and vac could probably make upwards of a 100 cuts.

A Tesla has around 70kWh minimum .

Its a lot of lithium battery!
« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 03:52 PM by AstroKeith »
Retired engineer/scientist

Online FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 949
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2020, 07:55 PM »
@Cheese @Alex , Thanks, I’m learning as we speak. I have felt there was something familiar with the melody - I’ll hook it on the sound that is, well, annoying electronic in sound [embarassed]

To be honest, most of the time I only recognise the sound from a room far away or being outside when the charger is inside. So in these situations it’s valuable, but when it’s going off right next to me it’s not - so said the misses back then [big grin]
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170

Offline AstroKeith

  • Posts: 190
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2020, 08:03 AM »
i underestimated its capacity. So I suspect I underestimated its price too!

For the UK it seems to be 230Vac only, no built in 18V charger either.

If we assume they can do it for USD2000, I'd be interested in whether this is an attractive proposition for contractors working on sites.
Retired engineer/scientist

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7386
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2020, 09:50 AM »
What I'm starting to wonder now is, since it is a 230 volt power source, does it come with the usual protections a standard electrical installation comes? I already read on that site linked above that it has no grounding. I wonder how this thing is going to comply with all the legal obligations for 230 volt power sources.

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2020, 10:27 AM »
It's no different to a generator, and I suspect is governed by the same regulations.

If a particular territory requires additional electrical protections to be used when using a generator on site, then those same requirements would apply here. People have been making, approving and using generators for decades, so I can't see it being an issue really.

Offline neeleman

  • Posts: 1274
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2020, 12:36 PM »
Prices SYS Powerstation are online now.
€3.509 incl. VAT, but are already advertised for €2.999 incl. VAT.
Available from May 2021.


Festoolian since 1998.
FESTOOL:
RTSC400Li | CTL MIDI I | SYSROCK BR10 | SYSLITE KAL II | SV-SYS D14 | DSC-AG125FH | CDD9.6 | SYSLITE DUO | DF700 | HKC55 | TXS2.6 | CTL SYS | CXS2.6 | DWC18 | CTWings | BHC18 | CS50 | CMS-OF | MFT/3 | MFT/3-VL | KS120 | TS55 R | PSC420 | PS420 | BS75 | RAS115 | RO90 | RO150 | RS400 | RTS400 | RS300 | LS130 | DX93 | ETS150/5 | ETS150/3 | OF1010 | OF1400 | OFK500 | MFK700 | T18 | EHL65 | CTL26 | CTL22 | WCR1000 | D27-AS Plug-it | D36 UNI-RS | D36x7 | D50x2.5 | FS800 | FS800/2 | FS1080/2 | FS1400/2 (2x) | FS3000/2 | FSK250 | FSK420 | Gecko Dosh | Toolie | CE-SYS-2010 | RB-SYS CART (2x) | LEV1400 | LEV350 | SYS-MFT
PROTOOL:
CHP26 | PDC18 | FLC UNI | VCP260 | DSC-AGP125 | DSC-AGP230 | DSG-AGP125 | DRP16

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7386
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2020, 12:55 PM »
Lol, at €3000 I don't think they will sell like hot cakes. People gonna be terrified that little box is grabbed by someone when they're looking the other way.

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 876
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2020, 01:16 PM »
Ouch 🤕
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 2041
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2020, 03:31 PM »
€3000  = US$3659.60

YIKES ! ! !
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1414
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2020, 04:13 PM »
anyone have the specs on this thing?

Offline wpz

  • Posts: 83

Online FestitaMakool

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Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2020, 07:32 PM »
Ouch! [blink]
It’s got good specs in terms of power and stamina, but little else.

In a pinch, even for a pro, one of these might be a better option. They can certainly be used for other purposes as well:

https://eu.ecoflow.com/collections/portable-power-station/products/delta1300

I’d guess there will be a lot more of these coming to the prosumer and consumer market the next year.

“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1414
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2020, 10:32 PM »
Pretty neat things (powerstations).  Something that for sure can displace generators for a lot of stuff.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7386
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2020, 03:44 AM »
https://eu.ecoflow.com/collections/portable-power-station/products/delta1300

Really, the same thing already exists for 40% of the Festool price?

I wonder how long the Festool takes to recharge.

Offline neeleman

  • Posts: 1274
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2020, 04:17 AM »
Just take it to a Tesla supercharger.
Charges the thing in 30 minutes. 🤣
Festoolian since 1998.
FESTOOL:
RTSC400Li | CTL MIDI I | SYSROCK BR10 | SYSLITE KAL II | SV-SYS D14 | DSC-AG125FH | CDD9.6 | SYSLITE DUO | DF700 | HKC55 | TXS2.6 | CTL SYS | CXS2.6 | DWC18 | CTWings | BHC18 | CS50 | CMS-OF | MFT/3 | MFT/3-VL | KS120 | TS55 R | PSC420 | PS420 | BS75 | RAS115 | RO90 | RO150 | RS400 | RTS400 | RS300 | LS130 | DX93 | ETS150/5 | ETS150/3 | OF1010 | OF1400 | OFK500 | MFK700 | T18 | EHL65 | CTL26 | CTL22 | WCR1000 | D27-AS Plug-it | D36 UNI-RS | D36x7 | D50x2.5 | FS800 | FS800/2 | FS1080/2 | FS1400/2 (2x) | FS3000/2 | FSK250 | FSK420 | Gecko Dosh | Toolie | CE-SYS-2010 | RB-SYS CART (2x) | LEV1400 | LEV350 | SYS-MFT
PROTOOL:
CHP26 | PDC18 | FLC UNI | VCP260 | DSC-AGP125 | DSC-AGP230 | DSG-AGP125 | DRP16

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2020, 06:53 AM »
https://eu.ecoflow.com/collections/portable-power-station/products/delta1300

Really, the same thing already exists for 40% of the Festool price?

I wonder how long the Festool takes to recharge.
The Ecoflow power bank is much lower spec than the Festool in terms of the watts it can deliver. Whether that's an issue would depend on what someone was planning on running on it. 3300W surge vs 11000W surge is quite the difference though.

I think given the specs, there isn't really much to compete with the Festool at the moment so the price is one of those things where,
if you need that sort of power, you'll justify the cost. There will be tradespeople who have been waiting for something like this and will jump on it as soon as it's available, but I can't see it selling in high numbers (and I'm sure Festool aren't expecting it to).

I imagine there'll be quite a few electricians out there wishing it was a bit cheaper though.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7386
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2020, 09:28 AM »
3300W surge vs 11000W surge is quite the difference though.

What kind of tools actually require such a high surge? The tools that have a high start-up surge like a large angle grinder or a big circular saw already have a soft start for years.

Beyond that, the specs don't seem so much different between the two. Festool has 20% more capacity, but that's it.

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 515
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2020, 10:21 AM »
This item allows you to use your dust extractors with all your cordless tools. I wonder if it will ever make it to North America since that would involve making a different voltage version. On the other hand, the 220 v would allow a person to use their new 220 v Mafell Erika 70 on a site without 220 v power.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8430
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2020, 10:27 AM »
I stumbled upon this yesterday. I certainly like the form factor of the Festool product better. They're talking 1800 running watts for a price of $2200. However the weight is 50#. The batteries are only 10# each but the controller weighs 30#.  [sad]







« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 10:31 AM by Cheese »

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2020, 07:00 AM »
3300W surge vs 11000W surge is quite the difference though.

What kind of tools actually require such a high surge? The tools that have a high start-up surge like a large angle grinder or a big circular saw already have a soft start for years.

Beyond that, the specs don't seem so much different between the two. Festool has 20% more capacity, but that's it.
Well, it's not necessarily one tool on its own requiring a huge surge capacity. Festool are clearly expecting people to connect a dust extractor in addition to whatever tool they're using, so the overhead is already reduced by whatever that happens to be drawing at any given moment. Plus, it gives people the option to stack a SYS-PH underneath and let a whole team run their tools, chargers, radios or sandwich toasters without having to worry about overloading the bank.

Yes, the specs aren't much different, but really there are only two specs that count with a power bank - capacity and current. The Festool exceeds the Ecoflow in both, and by a huge margin when it comes to current. At the end of the day, it's a significantly higher spec product and, unsurprisingly, they're charging more money for that. If someone doesn't need the additional spec, then they probably won't want to spend the additional money either.

This is obviously a product that is only going to appeal to a select group of tradespeople. In much the same way that the STM1800 - a £1200 'work bench' - seems like absolute madness to anyone who doesn't really need one, yet the people who do need one can justify the price easily because there's nothing else quite like it out there at the moment.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1750
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2020, 03:49 AM »
I wonder about the IP rating of the device.


Offline Dan Rush

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  • Trim carpenter
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2020, 10:37 AM »
On site, I'm completely cordless except for the kapex and ct. I would jump on this quickly if it ever came here, even at that price.   I am SO tired of fighting 5 or 6 other trades for the same two receptacles, cord management,  or realizing that I have a 50 foot cord but really need a 100 footer that day.  Systainer footprint is a big plus for me too. 

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk


Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 632
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2020, 05:36 PM »
// watched the video
Anybody on a building side, dragging a cable like that on a scaffold, has no business being there [blink].

The problem with all these "time saving" inventions is this: is the customer now truly profiting? More work in less time = cheaper solution? In the end doesn't the customer just pays for that little bit extra work? Or is it supposed to save on you prozac bill?

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2396
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2020, 05:59 PM »
The problem with all these "time saving" inventions is this: is the customer now truly profiting? More work in less time = cheaper solution? In the end doesn't the customer just pays for that little bit extra work? Or is it supposed to save on you prozac bill?
Are you questioning the benefits of working more efficiently? Try downgrading your tools and ask the customer to "just pay for that little bit extra work". See how the customer likes it.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2020, 06:11 PM by Svar »

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7386
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2020, 06:29 PM »
The problem with all these "time saving" inventions is this: is the customer now truly profiting? More work in less time = cheaper solution? In the end doesn't the customer just pays for that little bit extra work? Or is it supposed to save on you prozac bill?

There have been countless times when I was handicapped by not having mains power around where the work had to be done. I had the choice of not doing it, or completing the job with hand tools. Either way, it cost somebody money.

Offline ScotF

  • Posts: 2891
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2020, 12:28 AM »
I think this is great - hope it becomes available in North America. Would be great for all kinds of uses. It is not that expensive compared to other battery storage systems and this type of thing will continue to come down in cost with economies of scale and better and better storage.

Offline Alex

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Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2020, 02:26 AM »
I think this is great - hope it becomes available in North America. Would be great for all kinds of uses. It is not that expensive compared to other battery storage systems and this type of thing will continue to come down in cost with economies of scale and better and better storage.

It does have an American outlet - and it is Festool, it will never become cheaper. Only if other brands start to make them.


Offline Svar

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Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2020, 02:30 AM »
Not sure what that is (on picture above), but it's not US outlet.

Offline beeckie

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Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2020, 02:47 AM »
That’s a C13 outlet. It’s common on UPS devices.

Offline threesixright

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Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #55 on: December 23, 2020, 04:38 AM »
The problem with all these "time saving" inventions is this: is the customer now truly profiting? More work in less time = cheaper solution? In the end doesn't the customer just pays for that little bit extra work? Or is it supposed to save on you prozac bill?
Are you questioning the benefits of working more efficiently? Try downgrading your tools and ask the customer to "just pay for that little bit extra work". See how the customer likes it.

No, working more efficiently is great. But the main effect of this should give you the "edge" over the competition, ergo you can do it faster and/or cheaper? Somebody now first needs to invest 3k for this (and get some ROI)

The thing is, in 95% a building site have a few requirements. Most of it would be minimum electricity and water. The video of FT I saw, is not "there is no power". It implied there is power, yet fiddling with extension cords is a hassle (true). A 3k solution to solve this "hassle" seems a bit far fetched IMO.

Doing a big rebuild myself. First thing the contractor asked: where is water and power. And my point: its my responsiblity to make sure thats available. And if not, I would need to pay extra for him to fix that.

Not saying something like this wouldn't come in handy....

Offline Alex

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Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #56 on: December 23, 2020, 05:18 AM »
Not sure what that is (on picture above), but it's not US outlet.

Ah, my bad. Then it's probably to attach the cable to charge it.  [embarassed]

The thing is, in 95% a building site have a few requirements. Most of it would be minimum electricity and water.

Well, I would surely appreciate that if it were true beyond the realm of philosophy. When you actually go work in places you'd be surprised how often these things are not available. Think for instance of a building where everything is demolished, stripped to its bare walls because it has been emtpy for a while and the owner wanted to prevent squatters going in. Just one single example of many scenarios.



Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #57 on: December 23, 2020, 05:59 AM »
Yeah, I think Alex is correct that the C13 will be for power in, and whatever is behind the flap will be for power out. Much like the SYS-PH, Festool will just change that covered socket for whichever market they’re selling in. The main issue for the US will be how long it takes them to make a 110v version, not what socket it has. Not that 110v is technically difficult, just that it requires changes and testing, etc, and Festool naturally prioritise the European market.

As for site power, I think over here it’s actually pretty common for sites to be without power at all for periods of time, and even when there is power, it can often be a temporary board set up in a single location - the idea being that you charge batteries there (and brew the tea).

If you have a field full of new builds, they’re not going to set up temporary power in every single house, so the first fix chippies can plug in their dust extractors.

Offline Gregor

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Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #58 on: December 23, 2020, 08:57 AM »
The main issue for the US will be how long it takes them to make a 110v version
Or they make this a 110-240V, 50-60Hz input device and afterwards drop any and all other 110V stuff, since you now can obtain a working converter (with benefits) for your obsolete kind of mains power (which is, when seen from the perspective of worldwide prevalence these days, irrelevant).

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8430
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #59 on: December 23, 2020, 11:44 AM »
Or they make this a 110-240V, 50-60Hz input device and afterwards drop any and all other 110V stuff, since you now can obtain a working converter (with benefits) for your obsolete kind of mains power (which is, when seen from the perspective of worldwide prevalence these days, irrelevant).

I still think this SYS-PowerStation may be an easy way to integrate some of the 230 volt Festool & Mafell tools into the work shop without rewiring the shop or running 75 foot extension cords through the house. I'm thinking BS 75 or BS 105.

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #60 on: December 23, 2020, 12:51 PM »
Or they make this a 110-240V, 50-60Hz input device and afterwards drop any and all other 110V stuff, since you now can obtain a working converter (with benefits) for your obsolete kind of mains power (which is, when seen from the perspective of worldwide prevalence these days, irrelevant).

I still think this SYS-PowerStation may be an easy way to integrate some of the 230 volt Festool & Mafell tools into the work shop without rewiring the shop or running 75 foot extension cords through the house. I'm thinking BS 75 or BS 105.

Yeah, I think they could sell these in the US as is.   The input looks to be standard computer stuff, so that is almost certainly 100-250VAC 50/60Hz input like computer supplies, so that is good to go.  On the output, it comes down to how the designed it and did they plan ahead.  A smart engineer would have spec a transformer with a center tap.  So in EU they connect it as 230V only.  And then for North America, Japan, UK job site, they use the center tap and bring out 220 and 110V power.  Or they just design both transformers from the start and have it easy to swap out at the factory. 

But yeah, bring it as is, not a big deal.  Folks will be ready with the Schuko to NEMA 6-15/6-20 adapters and be able to plug in their 230-240V tools.   I still maintain that Festool should be bringing over 230V stuff anyways.  They could sell a bunch of CTs to folks who want them for their 240V tools as there is very little options for such vacs in the US.   

The price is a hard thing to swallow.  But if you are in cases like Alex mentioned, or building a cabin in the woods, etc.  This makes a lot of sense.

If they made it a 240/110 device, it would be great for bringing power to a cabin on the weekend. 

This stuff will get cheaper, and more companies will jump in.   The systainer aspect of it is a big plus for sure.  Maybe the can make a much smaller one to strap to sys-vac.

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #61 on: December 23, 2020, 01:01 PM »
The main issue for the US will be how long it takes them to make a 110v version
Or they make this a 110-240V, 50-60Hz input device and afterwards drop any and all other 110V stuff, since you now can obtain a working converter (with benefits) for your obsolete kind of mains power (which is, when seen from the perspective of worldwide prevalence these days, irrelevant).

They could just solve all and make them all with a NEMA 14-20 receptacle.  Make it a global choose your own adventure as it does both 110 and 220 (up to 250VAC really).  Folks just use the right adapter for their part of the world. Sell nice green adapters for what ever country/need people want.

Add: Before anyone ask, 50/60Hz is basically a non issue to devices, but if it was, they could just have a 50/60Hz switch on it as that is just part of the controller switching built into it as is.   Similar for the voltage, they all handle ranges,  100-120VAC,  200-250VAC.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 01:13 PM by DeformedTree »

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #62 on: December 23, 2020, 03:50 PM »
The main issue for the US will be how long it takes them to make a 110v version
Or they make this a 110-240V, 50-60Hz input device and afterwards drop any and all other 110V stuff, since you now can obtain a working converter (with benefits) for your obsolete kind of mains power (which is, when seen from the perspective of worldwide prevalence these days, irrelevant).
I meant to type ‘120v’. 110v would be used here in the UK for certain building sites, although I’m not sure if that requirement would apply to tools plugged into a generator/power bank, so there may be no demand for a 110v version in the UK.

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #63 on: December 23, 2020, 04:31 PM »
The main issue for the US will be how long it takes them to make a 110v version
Or they make this a 110-240V, 50-60Hz input device and afterwards drop any and all other 110V stuff, since you now can obtain a working converter (with benefits) for your obsolete kind of mains power (which is, when seen from the perspective of worldwide prevalence these days, irrelevant).
I meant to type ‘120v’. 110v would be used here in the UK for certain building sites, although I’m not sure if that requirement would apply to tools plugged into a generator/power bank, so there may be no demand for a 110v version in the UK.

Sounds like a headache for the code folks there to sort out,  it's both cordless and corded at same time.  Either way, I would think the contractors would want a 110V version as they have tools for 110V jobsites as is.  They are not going to toss their 110V tools just because this comes out.  But this would be a perfect reason for them to do as I show, make it so it does both, and they use the correct adapter. 

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 1329
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #64 on: December 23, 2020, 04:56 PM »
For those that dont know, in the US there is also the well known Jackery brand that makes a 1002Wh capacity, 1000W rated power (2000W surge power) unit: LINK
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #65 on: December 24, 2020, 04:00 AM »
They could just solve all and make them all with a NEMA 14-20 receptacle.  Make it a global choose your own adventure as it does both 110 and 220 (up to 250VAC really).  Folks just use the right adapter for their part of the world. Sell nice green adapters for what ever country/need people want.

Add: Before anyone ask, 50/60Hz is basically a non issue to devices, but if it was, they could just have a 50/60Hz switch on it as that is just part of the controller switching built into it as is.   Similar for the voltage, they all handle ranges,  100-120VAC,  200-250VAC.
The main issue I have with that is that it’s a solution that can only benefit the manufacturer, at the inconvenience of the customers.

I can’t see many people wanting to use an (easily lost) adaptor, just so that Festool can have the convenience of only having one global SKU.

Offline Alex

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Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #66 on: December 24, 2020, 05:09 AM »
They could just solve all and make them all with a NEMA 14-20 receptacle.  Make it a global choose your own adventure as it does both 110 and 220 (up to 250VAC really).  Folks just use the right adapter for their part of the world. Sell nice green adapters for what ever country/need people want.

Add: Before anyone ask, 50/60Hz is basically a non issue to devices, but if it was, they could just have a 50/60Hz switch on it as that is just part of the controller switching built into it as is.   Similar for the voltage, they all handle ranges,  100-120VAC,  200-250VAC.
The main issue I have with that is that it’s a solution that can only benefit the manufacturer, at the inconvenience of the customers.

I can’t see many people wanting to use an (easily lost) adaptor, just so that Festool can have the convenience of only having one global SKU.

Not gonna happen anyway, Festool's not going to inconvenience themselves and 95% of the world just to please the 5%.

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #67 on: December 24, 2020, 07:01 AM »
Not gonna happen anyway, Festool's not going to inconvenience themselves and 95% of the world just to please the 5%.
No, I don’t think any company would actually do this. But I also don’t think it would even please 5% of their customers either. People want a power bank with plugs for their region. Having a plug that can be used around the world is pointless for any end user, because their tools are only going to be from their own region.

I’m not even sure it’s particularly good for Festool either, because it means they’re having to engineer a multi voltage solution into every power bank they sell, which means charging the customer for that additional functionality even though the customer won’t benefit from it. Reduced sales for Festool, lost adaptors for their customers and no one gains anything.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1414
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #68 on: December 24, 2020, 09:51 AM »
So it's not 5% of the world, as has been brought up in other threads, 110V power is in a lot more places than just the US.  It is a substantial part of the industrialized (power hungry users) world. It is not going away anytime soon/ever.

Even without the 110V power situation, they still have to make different plugs for around the world which is added cost/effort.

A global plug to rule them all isn't going to happen, even if it did you would have decades of adapters.   My comment on the NEMA plug was it could be a solution, as it is the closest thing there is to an answer (some other parts of the world may have similar dual voltage plugs too).  No one likes adapters. But no one likes not being able to buy something either.  I have adapters for my tools from Europe, some of them I could cut the cords and replace the ends, but I don't want to do that, I'll take the adapter instead. But also I can't easily swap the receptacle on the CT, so there is little point.

Further people move, folks don't want to have to re-buy tools if they move, and scrap stuff.  So having something locked into one country isn't exactly desirable.  This is where computers are nice, move anyplace in the world, you just have to find the right cord as the Power Supplies are 100-250VAC 50/60Hz with a common plug on that end.

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #69 on: December 24, 2020, 12:16 PM »
Precisely. There are plenty of countries around the world not using 230v. Which means it’s worth it for manufacturers to eventually make versions of their tools that are compatible.

But, you might just have to wait a while, in the same way that Europeans sometimes have to wait for US products to make it over here. The solution isn’t more expensive, multi-voltage tools with universal sockets and adaptors. The solution, I’m afraid, is patience.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2396
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #70 on: December 24, 2020, 01:59 PM »
Not gonna happen anyway, Festool's not going to inconvenience themselves and 95% of the world just to please the 5%.
Not quite. 110/120v countries account for 40% of global GDP  (N. America + Most of S. Am. + Japan + Taiwan + ...). If you look at potential market share for upscale power tools, probably more than 40%.

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #71 on: December 24, 2020, 02:03 PM »
It’s not about how many people use that voltage, it’s about how many people use that voltage AND want a high power battery bank to power tools.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7386
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #72 on: December 24, 2020, 02:05 PM »
Not gonna happen anyway, Festool's not going to inconvenience themselves and 95% of the world just to please the 5%.
Not quite. 110/120v countries account for 40% of global GDP  (N. America + Most of S. Am. + Japan + Taiwan + ...). If you look at potential market share for upscale power tools, probably more than 40%.

And if Festool wants you to get the Powerstation, you're gonna get it in 110v, not some 220/110v hybrid as was suggested in the post I reacted to

It’s not about how many people use that voltage, it’s about how many people use that voltage AND want a high power battery bank to power tools.

I think generator use in America is pretty big considering all their rural areas, so the Powerstation might be of some use to them.

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #73 on: December 24, 2020, 03:21 PM »
I think generator use in America is pretty big considering all their rural areas, so the Powerstation might be of some use to them.
This isn’t really a good replacement for a generator.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1414
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #74 on: December 24, 2020, 03:31 PM »
rural US is a big market, that is why looking up "powerstation" you see a lot of such products out there. Many offer the 220/110 Voltage setup exactly so they can power buildings with them, some I saw even use standard generator plugs (nice).

Lot of folks here have cabins, or just weekend getaways and will want to use such things.  Being limited to 1 voltage would be very frustrating as it really cuts down on how someone could use it.

This is where if it comes to N.America, having it be a dual voltage plug like I mentioned would be very useful, if it is just 110V, it would probably be D.O.A. in the market.  But of course dual would also work for places like the UK.   3 Grand is a lot of money, it's much easier to justify if you can expand it's use.

Quality, quiet, portable generators are not cheap. If someone is looking at a generator, but then has this as an option, it would be something many folks would consider instead. Without dual voltage, that option is basically dead.  It takes nothing to have the all ready designed into it, even if the plugs being used don't have a center tap.

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #75 on: December 24, 2020, 06:28 PM »
You’re exactly right. There are already plenty of options available to anyone who wants power at their cabin. They don’t need a Festool one, and I don’t think they’ll want to pay extra just because it has a huge surge capacity, or because it’s in a systainer.

But if I’m wrong, and there is actually a massive market in rural America for a highly portable power bank in systainer format, with 11KW surge capacity, I’m sure Festool will make a killing when they eventually make the 120v version.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #76 on: December 24, 2020, 07:52 PM »
   I don't think the rural America theory holds much water either way. We do have electricity even here in the sticks.  Yes, maybe the whole cabin in the woods thing but that really has nothing to do with people living rural areas and is unlikely to be a big market. Plenty of city residents have cabins in the woods too.

   It will have a lot more to do with CONVENIENCE. Even if there is electricity on site. If I did a lot of site work where running cords was a nuisance or there were other workers on the same site. It would be great to just bring along my own portable power source and put it right where I want it.  No gas, no noise, no one else using it or messing with it.

Seth

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1414
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #77 on: December 24, 2020, 08:24 PM »
from the rural stand point, it's more the cabin thing, but also folks with big properties where cords don't reach.  Plenty of folks who don't want to use a generator.

But as mentioned, folks will look for other options than festool.  But if someone is looking at the festool option, being able to use it for the most possible ways will be key to spending that sort of money.

Offline demographic

  • Posts: 682
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #78 on: December 25, 2020, 04:41 AM »
For UK site usage its worth pointing out that most large commercial sites are usually pretty good (with big transformers and 110 volt sockets at regular intervals) but housing and holiday lodge sites are generally very poorly done and we need to get a generator to them.
Having ond of those darn things clattering away gets old fast especially when most of our tools are cordless anyway.
About the only ones that aren't are the extractors and sometimes chopsaws, maybe lights.

Thing is those gennys are clattering away all day, just to provide power for short periods of burst power.

Personally I was wanting to get one of the De-Walt powerstations but they're not for sale over here in 110 volts and even if they were the sockets are the dodgy US things and I can't see many safety bods liking it.

It being in a Systainer makes sense to me but at the moment the cost is a bit salty.

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #79 on: December 25, 2020, 07:10 AM »
Tbh, no one on here will buy one anyway, because it’s in the new Systainer3 design... ;)

Offline demographic

  • Posts: 682
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #80 on: December 25, 2020, 02:08 PM »
Tbh, no one on here will buy one anyway, because it’s in the new Systainer3 design... ;)

The basic design of em is pretty good, only problem being they lost the good idea about the heights playing well together down the back of the sofa.
Its easy enough to sort, just make the heights slightly different.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1414
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #81 on: December 25, 2020, 03:28 PM »
Tbh, no one on here will buy one anyway, because it’s in the new Systainer3 design... ;)

If Festool puts label holders on the side of the powerstation I might be more open.

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #82 on: December 25, 2020, 04:51 PM »
The basic design of em is pretty good, only problem being they lost the good idea about the heights playing well together down the back of the sofa.
Its easy enough to sort, just make the heights slightly different.
They didn’t accidentally drop the height system. They did it on purpose. They’re not going to ‘sort’ it out because there’s nothing to sort out. They’ve made a decision.

Offline fuzzy logic

  • Posts: 383
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #83 on: December 26, 2020, 12:10 AM »
I agree with Spandex.  Just going to have to take it on the chin - anything else is just hot air.  Also, I don't see Festool explaining, or justifying themselves, wrt their 'commercial' decisions.
Decent people do the right thing - always?

Offline demographic

  • Posts: 682
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #84 on: December 26, 2020, 08:11 AM »
They didn’t accidentally drop the height system. They did it on purpose. They’re not going to ‘sort’ it out because there’s nothing to sort out. They’ve made a decision.

Aye, just like the decision about not making an 18 volt impact screwdriver.
Oh, hang on a bit... [wink]

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 876
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #85 on: December 26, 2020, 08:39 AM »

They didn’t accidentally drop the height system. They did it on purpose. They’re not going to ‘sort’ it out because there’s nothing to sort out. They’ve made a decision.

Jeez, You  really enjoy telling people to get over this issue don’t you. Not sure why you are so against people voicing their opinions on the new sys3.

I’m pretty sure everyone here is fully aware of how unlikely it is our venting will affect Festools decisions. But talking festool is kinda what this forum is about, and if lots of users have a dislike I think posting it here is pretty reasonable.

there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #86 on: December 26, 2020, 10:47 AM »
 [laughing]

I’m all for people expressing their opinions on here, and I’m all for people agreeing or disagreeing with those opinions.

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #87 on: December 26, 2020, 10:56 AM »
Aye, just like the decision about not making an 18 volt impact screwdriver.
Oh, hang on a bit... [wink]
That’s a little bit different.

They haven’t made a recip saw, or a cordless router, or a nail gun either. That isn’t the same as them deciding they’re never making them. But by bringing out the sizes of sys3 that they have, they’ve broken the height matching system and can’t fix it simply by bringing out more sizes. A decision has been made that can’t be ‘sorted’, and I think it’s safe to assume they realised those implications when they made that decision.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 929
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2021, 08:50 AM »
What I'm starting to wonder now is, since it is a 230 volt power source, does it come with the usual protections a standard electrical installation comes? I already read on that site linked above that it has no grounding. I wonder how this thing is going to comply with all the legal obligations for 230 volt power sources.

No grounding means antistatic hose... is no longer antistatic.

The main issue for the US will be how long it takes them to make a 110v version
Or they make this a 110-240V, 50-60Hz input device and afterwards drop any and all other 110V stuff, since you now can obtain a working converter (with benefits) for your obsolete kind of mains power (which is, when seen from the perspective of worldwide prevalence these days, irrelevant).

They could just solve all and make them all with a NEMA 14-20 receptacle.  Make it a global choose your own adventure as it does both 110 and 220 (up to 250VAC really).  Folks just use the right adapter for their part of the world. Sell nice green adapters for what ever country/need people want.

Add: Before anyone ask, 50/60Hz is basically a non issue to devices, but if it was, they could just have a 50/60Hz switch on it as that is just part of the controller switching built into it as is.   Similar for the voltage, they all handle ranges,  100-120VAC,  200-250VAC.



Hahahaha, so you want the whole world to adapt a dumbass plug so you can keep your 110V nonsense? Yeah, that definitely is not gonna happen.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 378
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #89 on: March 24, 2021, 04:42 PM »
What I'm starting to wonder now is, since it is a 230 volt power source, does it come with the usual protections a standard electrical installation comes? I already read on that site linked above that it has no grounding. I wonder how this thing is going to comply with all the legal obligations for 230 volt power sources.
The regulations "for 230V" are actually "for 230V GROUNDED" system which has - somewhere - a high potential against the Earth. Once you have the system completely disconnected like here, the "lack of grounding" is a non-issue as the device/tool has no possibility to cause a current of any strength to go through your body to the ground where your body would serve as the conduit. At most you can get a static electricity shock like from any other static electricity source. That is high voltage but low amperage and so harmless.

Ref anti-static hoses and such.
I would guess that in (most) cases the sheer contact area of the whole system will actually make the anti-static hose thing work. But not always. Also, keep in mind that big part of the anti-static thing is the tool itself being form a conductive plastic means it does not generate the charge in the first place. I have a Bosh sander and even connected to AS hose it is a spark generator as the body of the sander is not conductive and my whole body charges from holding the sander ... being discharges to the hose if I touch it actually.


Off topic:
[laughing]
I’m all for people expressing their opinions on here, and I’m all for people agreeing or disagreeing with those opinions.
Then be so kind and stop talking people down. You are not doing service to the people nor to Festool nor to yourself.

If Festool sales/execs are able to come to terms with their company being built on the whole strange "system" thing or not is to be seen. What I and many other people can do to have that happen is exactly what make you so exasperated - voice our opinions here as well as to the dealers and subsequently vote with our wallets.

I would not expect any sanity to come to Festool before the whole manufacturing shortage is resolved and they have a chance to analyse the market reaction to the SYS3 thing. Mid-2022 would be the earliest appropriate time to give up on them if no remedy comes. Certainly not in 2021 with the whole Covid thing and the transition to SYS3 being still in progress.
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
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AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2520, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7386
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #90 on: March 24, 2021, 04:59 PM »
The regulations "for 230V" are actually "for 230V GROUNDED" system which has - somewhere - a high potential against the Earth. Once you have the system completely disconnected like here, the "lack of grounding" is a non-issue as the device/tool has no possibility to cause a current of any strength to go through your body to the ground where your body would serve as the conduit. At most you can get a static electricity shock like from any other static electricity source. That is high voltage but low amperage and so harmless.

Ever put a 9v battery on your tongue?

I have a Bosh sander and even connected to AS hose it is a spark generator as the body of the sander is not conductive and my whole body charges from holding the sander ... being discharges to the hose if I touch it actually.

That's one odd sander you have there. I have never had this with any sander. It is always the hose where the anti static builds up.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 378
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #91 on: March 24, 2021, 05:32 PM »
Ever put a 9v battery on your tongue?
Sure, but grounding is there not to make sure you do not touch a live wire. And it does not even protect you if you touch both live wires, one with each hand ... for the breakers you would look like a weak light bulb ... just your heart will not be alight too long ...

The grounding is to prevent a situation where the live wire is at a fixed "hard" potential of 230V against the ground - this connection is at the power plant*), many miles away - and you get in contact with the live wire. Your body then forms a conduit with the ground. Through the ground you are then connected to the other pole of that 230 connection closing the circuit becoming a live conduit for the electricity with bad things ensuing. This "hard potential" is what makes fixed installations dangerous as it is enough to get in contact with  single live wire to close the "circuit".
What the grounding does there, is it prevents an internal tool insulation failure happening silently by tripping the breaker in case live current would get to the tool casing. By having the tool casing independently grounded, the moment such a tool will be connected it will trip a breaker as the grounded casing will "take" any current the damaged wire can provide and route it to the grouding wire.

With a power bank like here, this cannot happen as the other working wire is not in contact with the ground. So if you were to touch a single live-wire, your body would connect the potential of the power source with ground, that side of the output will from then on be "grounded" via you, but no current will flow after the initial static electricity-like discharges which will align the power bank with ground potential.

The risk of you being still electrocuted by touching both live wires at the same time stays - same as with the 9V battery. There is no protection to save you there as human body has too high resistance to trip a breaker by itself. But this is no different from a normal grounded installation - there you are not protected against touching both live wires at the same time either. It is simply not technically possible to distinguish a human from a low power bulb.

Quote
That's one odd sander you have there. I have never had this with any sander. It is always the hose where the anti static builds up.
Tell me.
I tested it a lot and the issue is not the hose but the tool itself. If someone is touching the hose while I sand they do not get "charged up" so the hose is really grounded. But the person holding the sander but not grounded else where gets charged up from the tool and every moment touches something grounded - like the hose - gets a discharge right there. Pretty annoying. Will be getting an ETS and leave the Bosch sander for the general use by folks in shop .. so much for saving money on tools ..


*) technically, the transformer, the point is the same

EDIT: legibility
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 05:41 PM by mino »
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2520, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1414
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #92 on: March 24, 2021, 08:03 PM »
It is simply not technically possible to distinguish a human from a low power bulb.

Is this the part were we all have fun with this setup  [big grin]

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 929
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #93 on: March 25, 2021, 09:15 AM »
The regulations "for 230V" are actually "for 230V GROUNDED" system which has - somewhere - a high potential against the Earth. Once you have the system completely disconnected like here, the "lack of grounding" is a non-issue as the device/tool has no possibility to cause a current of any strength to go through your body to the ground where your body would serve as the conduit. At most you can get a static electricity shock like from any other static electricity source. That is high voltage but low amperage and so harmless.

Ever put a 9v battery on your tongue?

Yes all the time. It's the human's build-in 9V-battery charge indicator.

I have a Bosh sander and even connected to AS hose it is a spark generator as the body of the sander is not conductive and my whole body charges from holding the sander ... being discharges to the hose if I touch it actually.

That's one odd sander you have there. I have never had this with any sander. It is always the hose where the anti static builds up.

It's probably cheaper to use non-conductive materials.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 378
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #94 on: March 25, 2021, 09:26 AM »
It is simply not technically possible to distinguish a human from a low power bulb.

Is this the part were we all have fun with this setup  [big grin]
I see what you did there!

Loved a poster I saw on tube once:

"This machine does not have a brain.
                                         Use yours!"
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2520, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #95 on: March 30, 2021, 07:48 PM »
Off topic:
[laughing]
I’m all for people expressing their opinions on here, and I’m all for people agreeing or disagreeing with those opinions.
Then be so kind and stop talking people down. You are not doing service to the people nor to Festool nor to yourself.

If Festool sales/execs are able to come to terms with their company being built on the whole strange "system" thing or not is to be seen. What I and many other people can do to have that happen is exactly what make you so exasperated - voice our opinions here as well as to the dealers and subsequently vote with our wallets.

I would not expect any sanity to come to Festool before the whole manufacturing shortage is resolved and they have a chance to analyse the market reaction to the SYS3 thing. Mid-2022 would be the earliest appropriate time to give up on them if no remedy comes. Certainly not in 2021 with the whole Covid thing and the transition to SYS3 being still in progress.
No idea why you think I’m exasperated, or talking anyone down for that matter. I’m simply voicing my opinion that Festool will have been aware of the implications of their decision, so if anyone is expecting them to suddenly realise what they’ve done and try to ’fix’ it is likely to be waiting a very long time.

If it’s ok for people to complain about sys3, then I think it should probably be ok for people to put forward counter arguments.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 378
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #96 on: March 31, 2021, 09:19 AM »
No idea why you think I’m exasperated, or talking anyone down for that matter. I’m simply voicing my opinion that Festool will have been aware of the implications of their decision, so if anyone is expecting them to suddenly realise what they’ve done and try to ’fix’ it is likely to be waiting a very long time.

If it’s ok for people to complain about sys3, then I think it should probably be ok for people to put forward counter arguments.
TLDR: I think you underestimate how condescending your comments sounded to some.

--
Knowing you are breaking something and knowing what actual impact it will have on your customers (and your sales) are two very different things. The second case is universally an unknown until it happens and can be observed. *)

Projecting that Festool has a crystal ball to know that impact is just that, a projection. And you implying people raising a concern/complaining are immature/foolish because they dare to challenge the almighty Festool gods is either delusional or, more likely, disillusioned to the max and spreading that disillusionment. Disillusionment is like despair, it loves company.

I work in IT, and if I gave up each time after a colleague, customer or supplier did not "get" what issues I or our team is raising on the first attempt, or even the third attempt, we would never be able to get anywhere on complex projects. It is NORMAL you need to raise and explain a non-intuitive scenario multiple times, sometimes across multiple years until people not familiar with the topic will see it too.

The audience commonly does not have ones 5-steps-ahead vision, and some of the negative impacts first need to be seen to be believed. This is normal. A PITA which comes with the job of doing something new.


What I did not like in your comment presenting as if people who still believe there is a _possibility_ for Festool team to come to their senses were some time of idealistic fools. Some may be, but most do not. I for one know that issue which is not raised and complained DOES NOT EXIST. That is how organizations governance works. Complaints are the direct feedback tool.


Granted, it may not have been the (knowing) intention but you are not first one here to say "dully accept the gods of Festool decision" whenever stupid stuff comes out. IMO people do not do this out of malice but from sheer disillusionment.

In my experience the devil here is that this thinking is self-feeding. The more people give up on common sense, the rarer it is. And the circle continues. This is a fight which is eternal. It will never be won, but it can be lost if we give up. I have seem "broken" teams/business units which succumbed to this and never recovered. They got collectively broken and did not realize it.

Yeah, the parallel about eternal need to fight ignorance is not accidental.


*)
Actually, considering the Covid havoc in the market, I would argue it is extremely hard for Festool to assess this in retrospect from sales data. Too many things changed at the same time.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 09:21 AM by mino »
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2520, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #97 on: March 31, 2021, 06:06 PM »
I feel like you’re reading A LOT into my comments. “Idealistic fools”?? [blink]

At the end of the day, Festool have chosen a course of action that cannot be ‘fixed’. Even if they changed back to the old height system, there would be many many thousands of systainer3s out there that won’t fit in with that system, which means the system is permanently broken.

That is my point. It’s not about me thinking Festool are amazing, or that they can’t make mistakes. It’s not even about whether or not THIS is a mistake. They simply can’t fix it now in any remotely sensible way.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 378
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #98 on: March 31, 2021, 06:19 PM »
I believe that adding additional heights to the "new system" would be a fairly straightforward "fix".

There is nothing preventing the Bott guys sticking to their stupid heights while the rest of the world can carry on with sane stuff.


I for one will never get SYS3s unless it will be for a very specific purpose - think SYS POWERSTATION type stuff when I will not consider it a systainer but a tool connectable with one. As they say, vote with your feet.

I do not buy Festool systainers anyway as they scream "valuables inside". So nothing changes for me there. Will keep getting the TANOS ones as I did till now.
Will just remove the systainer value from mu purchase calculations if the tool will not be available without one. Till now saw it as value as the white systainers were quite inconspicuous  so were suitable for non-tool home use.
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
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AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2520, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 243
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #99 on: March 31, 2021, 06:23 PM »
As I start to research SYS-AZ drawers for my storage needs, I can't help but wonder if the 20mm difference in height with the Sys-3 came from the direct-mount slides molded into the cases matching up with the added height required to space out systainers on Sys-AZ drawers?

I mean, given the front handle, the top handle folding forward, and the molded slides, it's obvious that the new cases are heavily rack-oriented, so maybe the change from SYS-AZ to direct-mount would account for that change?

No idea why the SYS-M-112 would be the same height as the TLoc Sys-1 in that case, though.

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #100 on: March 31, 2021, 06:32 PM »
I believe that adding additional heights to the "new system" would be a fairly straightforward "fix".
But the old incompatible sys3 heights will still be out there in large numbers. Which means, as a customer, you’re in the position that you can only benefit from the ‘height system’ if you happen to have enough of the correct heights with you. Which is no different to how it is now with a mix of t-loc and sys3, which people are saying is not good enough.

That’s the issue. If having a mix of t-loc and sys3 is not acceptable, then having a mix of t-loc, sys3 and ‘sys4’ isn’t going to make that any better.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 378
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #101 on: March 31, 2021, 06:40 PM »
But the old incompatible sys3 heights will still be out there in large numbers. Which means, as a customer, you’re in the position that you can only benefit from the ‘height system’ if you happen to have enough of the correct heights with you. Which is no different to how it is now with a mix of t-loc and sys3, which people are saying is not good enough.

That’s the issue. If having a mix of t-loc and sys3 is not acceptable, then having a mix of t-loc, sys3 and ‘sys4’ isn’t going to make that any better.
Kinda, but once I am aware of the modulo 52,5mm versions specifics, I can simply ignore the others.

Lots of tools which were shipped in SYS2 are now shipped in 187. There is exactly ZERO benefit for Festool to ship in 187 versus a 1575 aka SYS23. It would fit in the exact same places in the Bott system but in addition would be fully height-compatible with the Classic and T-Loc height system.

WIN-WIN-WIN the moment someone at Festool will come from the Olymp between the commoners which actually use their tools.
[big grin]

EDIT: The important point being there is NO height system in the the SYS3 current heights. So there is nothing to be "incompatible" with on that front either.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 06:54 PM by mino »
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2520, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #102 on: March 31, 2021, 06:42 PM »
You can simply ignore the sys3 boxes already, can’t you?

Offline mino

  • Posts: 378
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #103 on: March 31, 2021, 06:57 PM »
You can simply ignore the sys3 boxes already, can’t you?
I do. Can until TANOS makes T-Locs which will be a decade or two still.

But I do also care as I like what TTS created as a whole. And would prefer they manage to fix themselves instead of hoping someone comes to fill their place in the market.
Hint: not having high hopes of someone doing better on the system thing than Festo/Festool did till recently. That needs vision and persistence and those traits are very much spat on these days.
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2520, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
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  • Posts: 12374
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Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #104 on: March 31, 2021, 07:09 PM »
Debate and discussion is totally ok, please continue not making this thread personal.  That would be greatly appreciated.

Peter Halle

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 170
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #105 on: March 31, 2021, 07:23 PM »
I don’t mean ignoring sys3 by not buying them - that’s not an option for most of their customers. Sys3 is out there in numbers already, so no change in heights will put the system back to how it was.

When I say it can’t be fixed, I don’t mean it can’t be fixed for you. But for Festool to take the massive step of changing the heights back to what they were, it would need to be fixing LOTS of peoples issues, not a small group who had managed to hold out on buying sys3s.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1414
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #106 on: March 31, 2021, 07:43 PM »
Folks forget that Festool may not like Systainer 3 either.  We don't know how much say they had in the matter.  Their sibling company makes them, and they report to the same parent. Festool was very well told they will change to this system, they very well expressed displeasure with this.

I would guess there was plenty of folks in Festool who didn't like this either.  But you will never see this because anyone who works in a company knows you can be un-happy about it internally, but you don't go saying stuff externally. You smile and roll with it.

The fact there are multiple issues with the new systainers, and what is the biggest issue(s) with them will vary from one person to the next. Folks within Festool very well brought all of the issues up, but if the parent company, laid down the law on the matter, it won't matter.

And no, people can't just avoid them. That is a far to idealistic idea.  Someone wants to buy a new festool tool, it comes in a systainer 3, simple as that.  Putting forth work arounds doesn't matter, they come in systainer 3s.

I don't see Festool as being the one at fault here. They don't make them, Tanos does.  Do any of use really think Festool would have requested height changes, label removal, pointless handles, etc?  Can be pretty sure the origin of these issues is not in Festool, but in Tanos or TTS Tooltechnic Systems.  As much as I would love to think Festool could have decided to stick with Systainer 2, or got Systainer 3.1 , or even be able to go back to Systainer 2 (T-Lock), that just isn't how companies work.

That doesn't mean complaining about them is bad, it very well will help something happen, maybe folks within Festool can take the complaints to Tanos and TTS and go "see see!".

The best case is a Systainer 3.1 type situation.  Tanos takes the designs they have, but makes another set of molds back to the old heights, leaves off the bottom handle while at it, brings back the side labels.  That is a lot of money to do that. But they very much could re-use a lot of the stuff on the new units that is fine or stuff no one cares about either way.  Will there be folks stuck with Systainer 3 tools, sure. But in time they can either swap stuff around, or live with them.  Some folks love classics and will swap with folks. Someone out there might love Systainer 3 and offer to swap with folks.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8430
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #107 on: April 01, 2021, 12:16 AM »
Tanos takes the designs they have, but makes another set of molds back to the old heights, leaves off the bottom handle while at it, brings back the side labels.  That is a lot of money to do that. But they very much could re-use a lot of the stuff on the new units that is fine or stuff no one cares about either way. 

In actuality, it's actually simpler than that. Having designed injection molds...the smart money is on the fact that these are totally different mold sets. Because of the different dimensions, interior features, exterior features I'd highly doubt that the same molds were used. Ejector pins, ejector blades, mold cooling, everything has changed...this is all different tooling.

So, the good news is that the original T-Loc tooling is still languishing around Tanos somewhere. Now whether Tanos keeps the old tooling on storage racks for future use or just decides to recycle it for scrap prices has yet to be determined. Scrap steel is worth a lot of money these days. That's a management decision and unfortunately management decisions can be fickle at best.

As far as Festool changing direction with the new Systainer 3 system...I don't see that happening. They made a corporate decision/commitment and they are extremely unlikely to back-track on that decision, why would they, that sends the wrong message.

A better approach is to retain the tooling for some time period and then make a decision if they should reintroduce Systainer T-Locs because of "popular demand" or sell the tooling and agree upon a licensing agreement with an outside source.


Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1414
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #108 on: April 01, 2021, 12:31 AM »
Yeah, they will have the old tooling, they still have the tools for classics as they make those.  My main thought was a compromise, they bring forward what every good is in the systainer design, and "just" have to make tooling for the 5 heights. No need for new tools for lids and other parts which can just be used as is from systainer 3.

I haven't done plastic tooling. But I suspect systainer tooling is very expensive just looking at the systainers. Which is why I don't expect them to do such a thing.  But it's one way to compromise and not look like they are reversing course. They are just introducing more heights, less front handles, more side labels.

In the future they can introduce "Systainer 3 T-loc  Classic Edition".  [smile] A re-introduction of classic T-loc features. Peoples heads explode over the name.

Unless Systainer 3 is found to be harmful to children, they won't go back. But other paths could happen.

Offline vkumar

  • Posts: 533
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #109 on: April 01, 2021, 12:50 AM »
Getting late into this thread.  But is there a place that explains the difference between the TlOc and the  SYS 3.  Graphically would be nice.
Vijay Kumar

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8430
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #110 on: April 01, 2021, 01:15 AM »
But I suspect systainer tooling is very expensive just looking at the systainers. Which is why I don't expect them to do such a thing.  But it's one way to compromise and not look like they are reversing course. They are just introducing more heights, less front handles, more side labels.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the tooling for a Systainer base is $70K-$100K unless they are procuring them off-shore. For the Systainer cover, one size fits all but the bases are all individual items.

To increase the height of a base is "relatively" easy by inserting a spacer but it's still not a slam dunk because of the cooling and ejection issues I mentioned earlier. And then the spacer will produce a witness line in the part that people will rail against and can become a potential fracture point.

No, Festool has made the decision to go forward with the Systainer 3 and time will tell where that goes. I'm not a fan of the Systainer 3 and the klack...klack...klack of the handle smacking against another Systainer but for now, it is what it is. It's not going to change anytime soon.  [smile]

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1414
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #111 on: April 01, 2021, 01:29 AM »
Getting late into this thread.  But is there a place that explains the difference between the TlOc and the  SYS 3.  Graphically would be nice.

I have no graphic, but can sum up the major parts of it.

1) They changed all the heights,  Systainer Classics (aka Systainer 1) and Systainer T-loc (aka Systainer 2), were the same heights, the new Systainer 3's have different heights, so no combination of them matches up to the old. You also can't get a stack that comes up to the same working surface heights.  The height changes also mean it breaks things for those who have cabinet systems and such built around them or just like to be able to make stacks from various systainers all to the same height, either for just a nice look, or to use to support stuff (aka making a table).

2) They removed the side label slot.  This was probably something to do with them putting features for side rails to use with the Bott vehicle racking system. Which now means for people who use them for everything else, you can no longer have labels on 3 sides, which is just really annoying for quickly finding what you want.

3) On shorter systainer 3s there is now a built in handle to help you pull them out of racks, but the handle doesn't fit flush when you lock the stack, it sticks out, so now again you break peoples storage setups, plus it's just dumb. 

Those are the main changes/issues.  Other parts changed too, but they are not things that would really get people upset in general, and could even be minor improvements (I think the hinge got improved).  They also did stuff that makes no sense like make a new sys-cart for them, which is a different footprint than the old. So again, for those with a system of systainers, it just messes things up, you now have to hunt the internet to find the old style, all the Tanos branded ones are gone, some Festool and other branded ones can be found.

Basically, they are still Euronorm form factor boxes footprint wise, they still connect together, and connect to the older models, but other than that, it's almost like a new system of boxes. The new version won't play well with collection of the old unless your only factor in compatibility is that they stack on top of each other and connect. If you embraced systainers for more than just a box, and built out around them, the change really sucks.

Offline vkumar

  • Posts: 533
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #112 on: April 01, 2021, 01:58 AM »
Thanks. Looks like it belongs in "what were they thinking" category. Glad I have my share of the older systainers.
Vijay Kumar

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 243
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #113 on: April 01, 2021, 09:41 AM »
The T-Loc Sys-I is the same height as the new Sys3-M-112, but all of the others are different heights.  The Sys-M-137 is in between the height of the old T-Loc SysI and SysII, which is actually more convenient for items that were just a little bit too large for a SysI but felt lost in a SysII (prime example: the hand sanding block with dust collection connected to a 21.5mm hose).  Most of the other sizes are just bigger than the old ones for the tools that come in them.

The new front handles latch flush if the Systainer under the Sys3 has a Sys3 latch instead of the T-Loc latch or if it's on the bottom of the stack; the Sys3 latches are slightly narrower to accommodate for this.  Unfortunately, a latch is nearly 20% of the price of a Systainer, so swapping them out is a non-trivial cost, but this knowledge can help when it's time to create a stack.  The Sys3's are slightly lower priced than their same-size T-Loc alternatives, which makes the latch an even higher percentage of the price of the unit.

Latch images of T-Loc, Mini, Sys-Org, and Sys3: https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-and-tanos-systainers/gen-2-t-loc-catches-and-gen-3-t-loc-catches-are-interchangeable/msg635500/#msg635500

In some ways, this is similar to the Classic Systainer, which can latch on to the bottom of the Sys3 like it could with the T-Loc, but it can't latch on top of a Sys3.  Same with stacking T-Loc Midi sizes with Sys3M.

The new Sys-Cart has rail guides on it so that the base can be racked, likely used for positively securing it in a vehicle in addition to the wheel locks.  The rails themselves are mostly intended for transport, but apparently not for daily use in a cart/cabinet:
https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-and-tanos-systainers/sys3-mounting-rails/

Offline mino

  • Posts: 378
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #114 on: April 01, 2021, 01:26 PM »
So, the good news is that the original T-Loc tooling is still languishing around Tanos somewhere.
...
Nothing is languishing. TANOS still makes Classics for their B2B customers and they are also generally available in etail in Europe - if you need them you can get them. And is still making piles of T-Locs for the same reason.

E.g. these days there are tons of medical T-Locs being made which will not be switched to SYS3 as there is no reason for that.

The only thing really impacted is Festool customers here - as they CHOSE (for whatever reason) to switch to SYS3 en masse.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the tooling for a Systainer base is $70K-$100K unless they are procuring them off-shore. For the Systainer cover, one size fits all but the bases are all individual items.

That sounds about right. Though the forms are basically peanuts in the grand scheme of things.

They pale compared to the R&D that went into these which was in the millions range. Just 5 engineering employees for 1 year in Germany is about $1M in costs. So think $10M ballpark R&D here, possibly more.

If TANOS decided to make compatible heights, the new bottom forms will pay themselves just by shipping one year worth of TPC drills in them. Give or take.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 01:35 PM by mino »
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