Author Topic: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw  (Read 20887 times)

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Offline Wood_Slice

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #60 on: April 20, 2021, 12:31 PM »
I guess Im glad I don't have the Kapex. While acknowledgment from a company is a step in the right direction it is (imo) only because of Kapex sales had been affected and assurances must be made to keep it in the Festool lineup. To this day I don't understand why a company like Festool doesn't add brushless technology on all if not most of their tools. I mean $1500 price tag is not sufficient to add brushless technology on a saw? Similarly they have a superb lineup of Hepa vacuums and the priciest is about $1000. So why not make a CT Cyclone model or something that has the vacuum with a built in cyclone. Here is the reason: consumables and sales. Which is why I suspect they don't change the Kapex to brushless technology so that eventually when it does stop working you can send it in for service. It is a shame but its not just Festool it is just how businesses operate in general.
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Offline Svar

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2021, 12:42 PM »
I mean $1500 price tag is not sufficient to add brushless technology on a saw?
Kapex is mains (AC) powered. Brushless are for cordless tools (DC). There are of course synchronous ac motors, which are technically brushless, but they weigh to much for a portable tool.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 12:49 PM by Svar »

Offline Tom Gensmer

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2021, 12:48 PM »
I mean $1500 price tag is not sufficient to add brushless technology on a saw?
Its mains AC powered. Brushless are for cordless DC tools.

There are plenty of portable, AC mains powered tools with brushless motors, so it's not just for cordless.
CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400, MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x4), MFT/Kapex (x3), KA 65 Conturo, endless Systainers

Offline Svar

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2021, 12:51 PM »
I mean $1500 price tag is not sufficient to add brushless technology on a saw?
Its mains AC powered. Brushless are for cordless DC tools.
There are plenty of portable, AC mains powered tools with brushless motors, so it's not just for cordless.
Can you give an example?

Offline Tom Gensmer

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2021, 12:53 PM »
I mean $1500 price tag is not sufficient to add brushless technology on a saw?
Its mains AC powered. Brushless are for cordless DC tools.
There are plenty of portable, AC mains powered tools with brushless motors, so it's not just for cordless.
Can you give an example?

Mirka DELOS and LEROS sanders, Hilti TE-1000, MAX air compressor, CoMatic DC40 power feeder, Oneida High Vacuum dust collectors, etc etc....
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 01:11 PM by Tom Gensmer »
CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400, MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x4), MFT/Kapex (x3), KA 65 Conturo, endless Systainers

Offline mrB

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2021, 01:02 PM »
I mean $1500 price tag is not sufficient to add brushless technology on a saw?
Its mains AC powered. Brushless are for cordless DC tools.
There are plenty of portable, AC mains powered tools with brushless motors, so it's not just for cordless.
Can you give an example?


Even the rather old protool PD20 drill.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81M2lMf-AVL._AC_SL1500_.jpg
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline Tom Gensmer

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2021, 01:12 PM »
I mean $1500 price tag is not sufficient to add brushless technology on a saw?
Its mains AC powered. Brushless are for cordless DC tools.
There are plenty of portable, AC mains powered tools with brushless motors, so it's not just for cordless.
Can you give an example?


Even the rather old protool PD20 drill.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81M2lMf-AVL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

I always thought that looked like such a cool drill, wished it had been released in 120V in NA.....
CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400, MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x4), MFT/Kapex (x3), KA 65 Conturo, endless Systainers

Offline Svar

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2021, 01:15 PM »
I stand corrected  [doh]. Then indeed why corded tools are lagging behind? Seems like nearly all new cordless tools are brushless now, even cheap brands.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 01:40 PM by Svar »

Offline Alex

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2021, 01:28 PM »
Here is the reason: consumables and sales. Which is why I suspect they don't change the Kapex to brushless technology so that eventually when it does stop working you can send it in for service. It is a shame but its not just Festool it is just how businesses operate in general.

No tool manufacturer is going to get rich from replacing brushes. And I am also not sure I want to have a portable vac with a built in cyclone.

I am not sure why they don't switch over to all brushless, probably something to do with cost. Brushless is probably the way of the future so it will go that way anyway. But no need to make a fuzz out of the fact it doesn't happen overnight. Brushed motors worked great for the last 100 years, so no need to condemn the principle.
 

Offline Chainring

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #69 on: April 20, 2021, 01:32 PM »
Can you give an example?
I'm surprised nobody has listed the ETS EC sanders.

Offline Tom Gensmer

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #70 on: April 20, 2021, 01:33 PM »
(Speaking WAY outside of my lane here): it is my understanding that brushless motors are more expensive than brushed, particularly for mains AC applications. It is my understanding that each machine uses an inverter to convert AC to DC, and needs to step up or step down voltage.

For instance, my Max air compressor has 120V AC “in”, the converts to 90V DC for the brushless motor. The neat thing here is, the compressor runs just fine in low-voltage settings, for instance at the end of long runs of extension cords. I think it’ll run on ~95V AC. I think HILTI markets the brushless TE machines with a similar pitch. It (the air compressor) is also variable speed, so I can set it for a lower rpm when working indoors.

Almost all of my corded, AC tools/machines are higher-end/premium products, so I suspect there’s a cost element. And, not every tool necessarily benefits from a DC motor.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 01:36 PM by Tom Gensmer »
CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400, MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x4), MFT/Kapex (x3), KA 65 Conturo, endless Systainers

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #71 on: April 20, 2021, 02:56 PM »
brushed motors are cheap and durable. It's not like you have to change a brush very often. Can take a persons decades with a tool before they need to.

Brushless requires a controller that brushed does not.  This both adds cost and introduces a bunch more failure modes. There is more to go wrong.

That said, once you go brushless on corded tools, and you have put that controller in there, then you might as well make the step to making it a battery tool with AC power option, as the core hardware is there now.

If companies like festool will make 2 models of the same thing TS55/TSC55, then it makes sense to just make both brushless instead of having 2 nearly identical products be made from more different parts.  But then like I just mentioned, just go to one unit that is dual power source.

In the end, both methods work.  Brushed is proven tech.  But brushless has now got very cheap and durable too.

Offline FestitaMakool

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #72 on: April 20, 2021, 03:01 PM »
(Speaking WAY outside of my lane here): it is my understanding that brushless motors are more expensive than brushed, particularly for mains AC applications. It is my understanding that each machine uses an inverter to convert AC to DC, and needs to step up or step down voltage.

For instance, my Max air compressor has 120V AC “in”, the converts to 90V DC for the brushless motor. The neat thing here is, the compressor runs just fine in low-voltage settings, for instance at the end of long runs of extension cords. I think it’ll run on ~95V AC. I think HILTI markets the brushless TE machines with a similar pitch. It (the air compressor) is also variable speed, so I can set it for a lower rpm when working indoors.

Almost all of my corded, AC tools/machines are higher-end/premium products, so I suspect there’s a cost element. And, not every tool necessarily benefits from a DC motor.

Think you’re pretty much right there. Brushless motors require monitoring electronics and electronic speed controls, and are therefore (at least was) more expensive. Given that more and more smaller motors now are brushless, I guess that larger motors are not so common and not mass produced in the number smaller motors are. AC brushless are probably harder to find. I remember I demanded a brushless/induction motor in my next washing machine, as a perfectly good (and expensive) machine was rendered useless because of worn out brushed motor. It was just to costly to repair.
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Offline squall_line

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #73 on: April 20, 2021, 06:23 PM »
I have a larger (possibly irrational) fear of a control board going bad than having to change out brushes on a motor on something like a TS55.  I don't necessarily expect to be able to hand down my tools to my as-yet-unborn child/children some day, but it would be nice if they weren't irreparable 5 or 10 years from now because of a microchip.  Didn't stop me from buying a T18, ETS-EC, Makita impact, or other brushless tools, but it's still in the back of my head.  My Milwaukee 7 1/4" is almost 20 years old and doesn't see much use, but I don't doubt it will start when I plug it in.

Of course, how many people bought Sears Craftsman Made-in-USA tools for their lifetime warranty?  There is no guarantee that Festool is still a going concern 15 or 20 years from now.

Offline mcooley

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #74 on: April 20, 2021, 08:24 PM »
Can't help but think this sounds like the Department of Defense and the UAP phenomena saying that it is real but we still don't understand it. Maybe the congressional report being produced will help but like this Festool document it often just sounds like a formal way of saying we still don't know but are also not looking for outside help yet.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #75 on: April 20, 2021, 08:53 PM »
Can't help but think this sounds like the Department of Defense and the UAP phenomena saying that it is real but we still don't understand it. Maybe the congressional report being produced will help but like this Festool document it often just sounds like a formal way of saying we still don't know but are also not looking for outside help yet.

And this statement from Festool was posted in 2019.  Last time I checked we are in 2021.  And reports about Kapex failures are down.

Peter

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2021, 09:53 PM »


And this statement from Festool was posted in 2019.  Last time I checked we are in 2021.  And reports about Kapex failures are down.

Peter

Someone mentioned about a problem on his EB recently, but I don't think anyone has reported a motor failure on the REB. The motor problem may have been resolved by the new parts that are now used in all new Kapexes.

Offline Wood_Slice

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Re: Message from Festool about Kapex Miter Saw
« Reply #77 on: April 21, 2021, 11:33 AM »
(Speaking WAY outside of my lane here): it is my understanding that brushless motors are more expensive than brushed, particularly for mains AC applications. It is my understanding that each machine uses an inverter to convert AC to DC, and needs to step up or step down voltage.

I don't particularly know the exact cost difference as it will vary with the type of tool. Here is an example a Dewalt DCF887 (brushless) vs Dewalt DCF885 (brushed) is about a $20 difference. ---> on a $1500 tool not sure how much difference that is but...

The reason I mention the Kapex and brushed is because it had a problem with the motors breaking down. A way to both satisfy the customers as well as their trust in that tool is to change the motor that way there will be no comparison between previous brushed version vs. the new brushless.
DF 500 + Assortments | ETS EC 125/3 EQ | CT MIDI + CT-Fi| MFT3 + Elements| Installer's Set | TS55-REQ |