Author Topic: new multi battery charger inverter power supply  (Read 24429 times)

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Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7665
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #90 on: March 24, 2021, 04:59 PM »
The regulations "for 230V" are actually "for 230V GROUNDED" system which has - somewhere - a high potential against the Earth. Once you have the system completely disconnected like here, the "lack of grounding" is a non-issue as the device/tool has no possibility to cause a current of any strength to go through your body to the ground where your body would serve as the conduit. At most you can get a static electricity shock like from any other static electricity source. That is high voltage but low amperage and so harmless.

Ever put a 9v battery on your tongue?

I have a Bosh sander and even connected to AS hose it is a spark generator as the body of the sander is not conductive and my whole body charges from holding the sander ... being discharges to the hose if I touch it actually.

That's one odd sander you have there. I have never had this with any sander. It is always the hose where the anti static builds up.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 533
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #91 on: March 24, 2021, 05:32 PM »
Ever put a 9v battery on your tongue?
Sure, but grounding is there not to make sure you do not touch a live wire. And it does not even protect you if you touch both live wires, one with each hand ... for the breakers you would look like a weak light bulb ... just your heart will not be alight too long ...

The grounding is to prevent a situation where the live wire is at a fixed "hard" potential of 230V against the ground - this connection is at the power plant*), many miles away - and you get in contact with the live wire. Your body then forms a conduit with the ground. Through the ground you are then connected to the other pole of that 230 connection closing the circuit becoming a live conduit for the electricity with bad things ensuing. This "hard potential" is what makes fixed installations dangerous as it is enough to get in contact with  single live wire to close the "circuit".
What the grounding does there, is it prevents an internal tool insulation failure happening silently by tripping the breaker in case live current would get to the tool casing. By having the tool casing independently grounded, the moment such a tool will be connected it will trip a breaker as the grounded casing will "take" any current the damaged wire can provide and route it to the grouding wire.

With a power bank like here, this cannot happen as the other working wire is not in contact with the ground. So if you were to touch a single live-wire, your body would connect the potential of the power source with ground, that side of the output will from then on be "grounded" via you, but no current will flow after the initial static electricity-like discharges which will align the power bank with ground potential.

The risk of you being still electrocuted by touching both live wires at the same time stays - same as with the 9V battery. There is no protection to save you there as human body has too high resistance to trip a breaker by itself. But this is no different from a normal grounded installation - there you are not protected against touching both live wires at the same time either. It is simply not technically possible to distinguish a human from a low power bulb.

Quote
That's one odd sander you have there. I have never had this with any sander. It is always the hose where the anti static builds up.
Tell me.
I tested it a lot and the issue is not the hose but the tool itself. If someone is touching the hose while I sand they do not get "charged up" so the hose is really grounded. But the person holding the sander but not grounded else where gets charged up from the tool and every moment touches something grounded - like the hose - gets a discharge right there. Pretty annoying. Will be getting an ETS and leave the Bosch sander for the general use by folks in shop .. so much for saving money on tools ..


*) technically, the transformer, the point is the same

EDIT: legibility
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 05:41 PM by mino »
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 2x 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, 2x GRS 16 PE, GECKO-DOSH

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1374
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #92 on: March 24, 2021, 08:03 PM »
It is simply not technically possible to distinguish a human from a low power bulb.

Is this the part were we all have fun with this setup  [big grin]

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1092
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #93 on: March 25, 2021, 09:15 AM »
The regulations "for 230V" are actually "for 230V GROUNDED" system which has - somewhere - a high potential against the Earth. Once you have the system completely disconnected like here, the "lack of grounding" is a non-issue as the device/tool has no possibility to cause a current of any strength to go through your body to the ground where your body would serve as the conduit. At most you can get a static electricity shock like from any other static electricity source. That is high voltage but low amperage and so harmless.

Ever put a 9v battery on your tongue?

Yes all the time. It's the human's build-in 9V-battery charge indicator.

I have a Bosh sander and even connected to AS hose it is a spark generator as the body of the sander is not conductive and my whole body charges from holding the sander ... being discharges to the hose if I touch it actually.

That's one odd sander you have there. I have never had this with any sander. It is always the hose where the anti static builds up.

It's probably cheaper to use non-conductive materials.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 533
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #94 on: March 25, 2021, 09:26 AM »
It is simply not technically possible to distinguish a human from a low power bulb.

Is this the part were we all have fun with this setup  [big grin]
I see what you did there!

Loved a poster I saw on tube once:

"This machine does not have a brain.
                                         Use yours!"
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 2x 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, 2x GRS 16 PE, GECKO-DOSH

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 218
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #95 on: March 30, 2021, 07:48 PM »
Off topic:
[laughing]
I’m all for people expressing their opinions on here, and I’m all for people agreeing or disagreeing with those opinions.
Then be so kind and stop talking people down. You are not doing service to the people nor to Festool nor to yourself.

If Festool sales/execs are able to come to terms with their company being built on the whole strange "system" thing or not is to be seen. What I and many other people can do to have that happen is exactly what make you so exasperated - voice our opinions here as well as to the dealers and subsequently vote with our wallets.

I would not expect any sanity to come to Festool before the whole manufacturing shortage is resolved and they have a chance to analyse the market reaction to the SYS3 thing. Mid-2022 would be the earliest appropriate time to give up on them if no remedy comes. Certainly not in 2021 with the whole Covid thing and the transition to SYS3 being still in progress.
No idea why you think I’m exasperated, or talking anyone down for that matter. I’m simply voicing my opinion that Festool will have been aware of the implications of their decision, so if anyone is expecting them to suddenly realise what they’ve done and try to ’fix’ it is likely to be waiting a very long time.

If it’s ok for people to complain about sys3, then I think it should probably be ok for people to put forward counter arguments.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 533
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #96 on: March 31, 2021, 09:19 AM »
No idea why you think I’m exasperated, or talking anyone down for that matter. I’m simply voicing my opinion that Festool will have been aware of the implications of their decision, so if anyone is expecting them to suddenly realise what they’ve done and try to ’fix’ it is likely to be waiting a very long time.

If it’s ok for people to complain about sys3, then I think it should probably be ok for people to put forward counter arguments.
TLDR: I think you underestimate how condescending your comments sounded to some.

--
Knowing you are breaking something and knowing what actual impact it will have on your customers (and your sales) are two very different things. The second case is universally an unknown until it happens and can be observed. *)

Projecting that Festool has a crystal ball to know that impact is just that, a projection. And you implying people raising a concern/complaining are immature/foolish because they dare to challenge the almighty Festool gods is either delusional or, more likely, disillusioned to the max and spreading that disillusionment. Disillusionment is like despair, it loves company.

I work in IT, and if I gave up each time after a colleague, customer or supplier did not "get" what issues I or our team is raising on the first attempt, or even the third attempt, we would never be able to get anywhere on complex projects. It is NORMAL you need to raise and explain a non-intuitive scenario multiple times, sometimes across multiple years until people not familiar with the topic will see it too.

The audience commonly does not have ones 5-steps-ahead vision, and some of the negative impacts first need to be seen to be believed. This is normal. A PITA which comes with the job of doing something new.


What I did not like in your comment presenting as if people who still believe there is a _possibility_ for Festool team to come to their senses were some time of idealistic fools. Some may be, but most do not. I for one know that issue which is not raised and complained DOES NOT EXIST. That is how organizations governance works. Complaints are the direct feedback tool.


Granted, it may not have been the (knowing) intention but you are not first one here to say "dully accept the gods of Festool decision" whenever stupid stuff comes out. IMO people do not do this out of malice but from sheer disillusionment.

In my experience the devil here is that this thinking is self-feeding. The more people give up on common sense, the rarer it is. And the circle continues. This is a fight which is eternal. It will never be won, but it can be lost if we give up. I have seem "broken" teams/business units which succumbed to this and never recovered. They got collectively broken and did not realize it.

Yeah, the parallel about eternal need to fight ignorance is not accidental.


*)
Actually, considering the Covid havoc in the market, I would argue it is extremely hard for Festool to assess this in retrospect from sales data. Too many things changed at the same time.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 09:21 AM by mino »
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 2x 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, 2x GRS 16 PE, GECKO-DOSH

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 218
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #97 on: March 31, 2021, 06:06 PM »
I feel like you’re reading A LOT into my comments. “Idealistic fools”?? [blink]

At the end of the day, Festool have chosen a course of action that cannot be ‘fixed’. Even if they changed back to the old height system, there would be many many thousands of systainer3s out there that won’t fit in with that system, which means the system is permanently broken.

That is my point. It’s not about me thinking Festool are amazing, or that they can’t make mistakes. It’s not even about whether or not THIS is a mistake. They simply can’t fix it now in any remotely sensible way.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 533
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #98 on: March 31, 2021, 06:19 PM »
I believe that adding additional heights to the "new system" would be a fairly straightforward "fix".

There is nothing preventing the Bott guys sticking to their stupid heights while the rest of the world can carry on with sane stuff.


I for one will never get SYS3s unless it will be for a very specific purpose - think SYS POWERSTATION type stuff when I will not consider it a systainer but a tool connectable with one. As they say, vote with your feet.

I do not buy Festool systainers anyway as they scream "valuables inside". So nothing changes for me there. Will keep getting the TANOS ones as I did till now.
Will just remove the systainer value from mu purchase calculations if the tool will not be available without one. Till now saw it as value as the white systainers were quite inconspicuous  so were suitable for non-tool home use.
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 2x 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, 2x GRS 16 PE, GECKO-DOSH

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 776
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #99 on: March 31, 2021, 06:23 PM »
As I start to research SYS-AZ drawers for my storage needs, I can't help but wonder if the 20mm difference in height with the Sys-3 came from the direct-mount slides molded into the cases matching up with the added height required to space out systainers on Sys-AZ drawers?

I mean, given the front handle, the top handle folding forward, and the molded slides, it's obvious that the new cases are heavily rack-oriented, so maybe the change from SYS-AZ to direct-mount would account for that change?

No idea why the SYS-M-112 would be the same height as the TLoc Sys-1 in that case, though.

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 218
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #100 on: March 31, 2021, 06:32 PM »
I believe that adding additional heights to the "new system" would be a fairly straightforward "fix".
But the old incompatible sys3 heights will still be out there in large numbers. Which means, as a customer, you’re in the position that you can only benefit from the ‘height system’ if you happen to have enough of the correct heights with you. Which is no different to how it is now with a mix of t-loc and sys3, which people are saying is not good enough.

That’s the issue. If having a mix of t-loc and sys3 is not acceptable, then having a mix of t-loc, sys3 and ‘sys4’ isn’t going to make that any better.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 533
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #101 on: March 31, 2021, 06:40 PM »
But the old incompatible sys3 heights will still be out there in large numbers. Which means, as a customer, you’re in the position that you can only benefit from the ‘height system’ if you happen to have enough of the correct heights with you. Which is no different to how it is now with a mix of t-loc and sys3, which people are saying is not good enough.

That’s the issue. If having a mix of t-loc and sys3 is not acceptable, then having a mix of t-loc, sys3 and ‘sys4’ isn’t going to make that any better.
Kinda, but once I am aware of the modulo 52,5mm versions specifics, I can simply ignore the others.

Lots of tools which were shipped in SYS2 are now shipped in 187. There is exactly ZERO benefit for Festool to ship in 187 versus a 1575 aka SYS23. It would fit in the exact same places in the Bott system but in addition would be fully height-compatible with the Classic and T-Loc height system.

WIN-WIN-WIN the moment someone at Festool will come from the Olymp between the commoners which actually use their tools.
[big grin]

EDIT: The important point being there is NO height system in the the SYS3 current heights. So there is nothing to be "incompatible" with on that front either.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 06:54 PM by mino »
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 2x 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, 2x GRS 16 PE, GECKO-DOSH

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 218
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #102 on: March 31, 2021, 06:42 PM »
You can simply ignore the sys3 boxes already, can’t you?

Offline mino

  • Posts: 533
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #103 on: March 31, 2021, 06:57 PM »
You can simply ignore the sys3 boxes already, can’t you?
I do. Can until TANOS makes T-Locs which will be a decade or two still.

But I do also care as I like what TTS created as a whole. And would prefer they manage to fix themselves instead of hoping someone comes to fill their place in the market.
Hint: not having high hopes of someone doing better on the system thing than Festo/Festool did till recently. That needs vision and persistence and those traits are very much spat on these days.
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 2x 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, 2x GRS 16 PE, GECKO-DOSH

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #104 on: March 31, 2021, 07:09 PM »
Debate and discussion is totally ok, please continue not making this thread personal.  That would be greatly appreciated.

Peter Halle

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 218
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #105 on: March 31, 2021, 07:23 PM »
I don’t mean ignoring sys3 by not buying them - that’s not an option for most of their customers. Sys3 is out there in numbers already, so no change in heights will put the system back to how it was.

When I say it can’t be fixed, I don’t mean it can’t be fixed for you. But for Festool to take the massive step of changing the heights back to what they were, it would need to be fixing LOTS of peoples issues, not a small group who had managed to hold out on buying sys3s.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1374
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #106 on: March 31, 2021, 07:43 PM »
Folks forget that Festool may not like Systainer 3 either.  We don't know how much say they had in the matter.  Their sibling company makes them, and they report to the same parent. Festool was very well told they will change to this system, they very well expressed displeasure with this.

I would guess there was plenty of folks in Festool who didn't like this either.  But you will never see this because anyone who works in a company knows you can be un-happy about it internally, but you don't go saying stuff externally. You smile and roll with it.

The fact there are multiple issues with the new systainers, and what is the biggest issue(s) with them will vary from one person to the next. Folks within Festool very well brought all of the issues up, but if the parent company, laid down the law on the matter, it won't matter.

And no, people can't just avoid them. That is a far to idealistic idea.  Someone wants to buy a new festool tool, it comes in a systainer 3, simple as that.  Putting forth work arounds doesn't matter, they come in systainer 3s.

I don't see Festool as being the one at fault here. They don't make them, Tanos does.  Do any of use really think Festool would have requested height changes, label removal, pointless handles, etc?  Can be pretty sure the origin of these issues is not in Festool, but in Tanos or TTS Tooltechnic Systems.  As much as I would love to think Festool could have decided to stick with Systainer 2, or got Systainer 3.1 , or even be able to go back to Systainer 2 (T-Lock), that just isn't how companies work.

That doesn't mean complaining about them is bad, it very well will help something happen, maybe folks within Festool can take the complaints to Tanos and TTS and go "see see!".

The best case is a Systainer 3.1 type situation.  Tanos takes the designs they have, but makes another set of molds back to the old heights, leaves off the bottom handle while at it, brings back the side labels.  That is a lot of money to do that. But they very much could re-use a lot of the stuff on the new units that is fine or stuff no one cares about either way.  Will there be folks stuck with Systainer 3 tools, sure. But in time they can either swap stuff around, or live with them.  Some folks love classics and will swap with folks. Someone out there might love Systainer 3 and offer to swap with folks.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8903
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #107 on: April 01, 2021, 12:16 AM »
Tanos takes the designs they have, but makes another set of molds back to the old heights, leaves off the bottom handle while at it, brings back the side labels.  That is a lot of money to do that. But they very much could re-use a lot of the stuff on the new units that is fine or stuff no one cares about either way. 

In actuality, it's actually simpler than that. Having designed injection molds...the smart money is on the fact that these are totally different mold sets. Because of the different dimensions, interior features, exterior features I'd highly doubt that the same molds were used. Ejector pins, ejector blades, mold cooling, everything has changed...this is all different tooling.

So, the good news is that the original T-Loc tooling is still languishing around Tanos somewhere. Now whether Tanos keeps the old tooling on storage racks for future use or just decides to recycle it for scrap prices has yet to be determined. Scrap steel is worth a lot of money these days. That's a management decision and unfortunately management decisions can be fickle at best.

As far as Festool changing direction with the new Systainer 3 system...I don't see that happening. They made a corporate decision/commitment and they are extremely unlikely to back-track on that decision, why would they, that sends the wrong message.

A better approach is to retain the tooling for some time period and then make a decision if they should reintroduce Systainer T-Locs because of "popular demand" or sell the tooling and agree upon a licensing agreement with an outside source.


Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1374
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #108 on: April 01, 2021, 12:31 AM »
Yeah, they will have the old tooling, they still have the tools for classics as they make those.  My main thought was a compromise, they bring forward what every good is in the systainer design, and "just" have to make tooling for the 5 heights. No need for new tools for lids and other parts which can just be used as is from systainer 3.

I haven't done plastic tooling. But I suspect systainer tooling is very expensive just looking at the systainers. Which is why I don't expect them to do such a thing.  But it's one way to compromise and not look like they are reversing course. They are just introducing more heights, less front handles, more side labels.

In the future they can introduce "Systainer 3 T-loc  Classic Edition".  [smile] A re-introduction of classic T-loc features. Peoples heads explode over the name.

Unless Systainer 3 is found to be harmful to children, they won't go back. But other paths could happen.

Offline vkumar

  • Posts: 538
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #109 on: April 01, 2021, 12:50 AM »
Getting late into this thread.  But is there a place that explains the difference between the TlOc and the  SYS 3.  Graphically would be nice.
Vijay Kumar

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8903
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #110 on: April 01, 2021, 01:15 AM »
But I suspect systainer tooling is very expensive just looking at the systainers. Which is why I don't expect them to do such a thing.  But it's one way to compromise and not look like they are reversing course. They are just introducing more heights, less front handles, more side labels.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the tooling for a Systainer base is $70K-$100K unless they are procuring them off-shore. For the Systainer cover, one size fits all but the bases are all individual items.

To increase the height of a base is "relatively" easy by inserting a spacer but it's still not a slam dunk because of the cooling and ejection issues I mentioned earlier. And then the spacer will produce a witness line in the part that people will rail against and can become a potential fracture point.

No, Festool has made the decision to go forward with the Systainer 3 and time will tell where that goes. I'm not a fan of the Systainer 3 and the klack...klack...klack of the handle smacking against another Systainer but for now, it is what it is. It's not going to change anytime soon.  [smile]

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1374
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #111 on: April 01, 2021, 01:29 AM »
Getting late into this thread.  But is there a place that explains the difference between the TlOc and the  SYS 3.  Graphically would be nice.

I have no graphic, but can sum up the major parts of it.

1) They changed all the heights,  Systainer Classics (aka Systainer 1) and Systainer T-loc (aka Systainer 2), were the same heights, the new Systainer 3's have different heights, so no combination of them matches up to the old. You also can't get a stack that comes up to the same working surface heights.  The height changes also mean it breaks things for those who have cabinet systems and such built around them or just like to be able to make stacks from various systainers all to the same height, either for just a nice look, or to use to support stuff (aka making a table).

2) They removed the side label slot.  This was probably something to do with them putting features for side rails to use with the Bott vehicle racking system. Which now means for people who use them for everything else, you can no longer have labels on 3 sides, which is just really annoying for quickly finding what you want.

3) On shorter systainer 3s there is now a built in handle to help you pull them out of racks, but the handle doesn't fit flush when you lock the stack, it sticks out, so now again you break peoples storage setups, plus it's just dumb. 

Those are the main changes/issues.  Other parts changed too, but they are not things that would really get people upset in general, and could even be minor improvements (I think the hinge got improved).  They also did stuff that makes no sense like make a new sys-cart for them, which is a different footprint than the old. So again, for those with a system of systainers, it just messes things up, you now have to hunt the internet to find the old style, all the Tanos branded ones are gone, some Festool and other branded ones can be found.

Basically, they are still Euronorm form factor boxes footprint wise, they still connect together, and connect to the older models, but other than that, it's almost like a new system of boxes. The new version won't play well with collection of the old unless your only factor in compatibility is that they stack on top of each other and connect. If you embraced systainers for more than just a box, and built out around them, the change really sucks.

Offline vkumar

  • Posts: 538
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #112 on: April 01, 2021, 01:58 AM »
Thanks. Looks like it belongs in "what were they thinking" category. Glad I have my share of the older systainers.
Vijay Kumar

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 776
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #113 on: April 01, 2021, 09:41 AM »
The T-Loc Sys-I is the same height as the new Sys3-M-112, but all of the others are different heights.  The Sys-M-137 is in between the height of the old T-Loc SysI and SysII, which is actually more convenient for items that were just a little bit too large for a SysI but felt lost in a SysII (prime example: the hand sanding block with dust collection connected to a 21.5mm hose).  Most of the other sizes are just bigger than the old ones for the tools that come in them.

The new front handles latch flush if the Systainer under the Sys3 has a Sys3 latch instead of the T-Loc latch or if it's on the bottom of the stack; the Sys3 latches are slightly narrower to accommodate for this.  Unfortunately, a latch is nearly 20% of the price of a Systainer, so swapping them out is a non-trivial cost, but this knowledge can help when it's time to create a stack.  The Sys3's are slightly lower priced than their same-size T-Loc alternatives, which makes the latch an even higher percentage of the price of the unit.

Latch images of T-Loc, Mini, Sys-Org, and Sys3: https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-and-tanos-systainers/gen-2-t-loc-catches-and-gen-3-t-loc-catches-are-interchangeable/msg635500/#msg635500

In some ways, this is similar to the Classic Systainer, which can latch on to the bottom of the Sys3 like it could with the T-Loc, but it can't latch on top of a Sys3.  Same with stacking T-Loc Midi sizes with Sys3M.

The new Sys-Cart has rail guides on it so that the base can be racked, likely used for positively securing it in a vehicle in addition to the wheel locks.  The rails themselves are mostly intended for transport, but apparently not for daily use in a cart/cabinet:
https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-and-tanos-systainers/sys3-mounting-rails/

Offline mino

  • Posts: 533
Re: new multi battery charger inverter power supply
« Reply #114 on: April 01, 2021, 01:26 PM »
So, the good news is that the original T-Loc tooling is still languishing around Tanos somewhere.
...
Nothing is languishing. TANOS still makes Classics for their B2B customers and they are also generally available in etail in Europe - if you need them you can get them. And is still making piles of T-Locs for the same reason.

E.g. these days there are tons of medical T-Locs being made which will not be switched to SYS3 as there is no reason for that.

The only thing really impacted is Festool customers here - as they CHOSE (for whatever reason) to switch to SYS3 en masse.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the tooling for a Systainer base is $70K-$100K unless they are procuring them off-shore. For the Systainer cover, one size fits all but the bases are all individual items.

That sounds about right. Though the forms are basically peanuts in the grand scheme of things.

They pale compared to the R&D that went into these which was in the millions range. Just 5 engineering employees for 1 year in Germany is about $1M in costs. So think $10M ballpark R&D here, possibly more.

If TANOS decided to make compatible heights, the new bottom forms will pay themselves just by shipping one year worth of TPC drills in them. Give or take.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 01:35 PM by mino »
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