Author Topic: Festool TSV 60 plunge saw with scoring blade (Read 12915 times)

bobtskutter · « **Reply #30 on:** February 03, 2023, 03:33 AM »

Surely for this type of saw to work you would have to start the cut with the entire machine out off the workpiece, so the scoring blade makes the first cut. That's a lot of saw to be "hanging" on the guide rail.

I thought the green splinter guards that clip on the saw were suppose to prevent chip out on the top surface?

Bob

woodbutcherbower · « **Reply #31 on:** February 03, 2023, 03:37 AM »

@Fourmi Thankyou. The TS60 came in a few weeks after I’d done that waterfall - my TS55 was 8 years old and really needed replacing, so the TS55’s slight lack of mitre cutting depth on that job was the catalyst - with the extra depth of cut being the no-brainer aspect of it. But now that I’ve calmed down a little - you’re probably quite right. Maybe that’s exactly the way to go, using the TS60 as a daily workhorse and just pulling out the TSV for laminate work. I just saw the picture and instantly perceived it as a 2-in-1 catch-all for every conceivable application I could throw at it. I’ll wait until the machine’s available and try one out at my nearest dealer (ProTrade, 15 miles away).

woodbutcherbower · « **Reply #32 on:** February 03, 2023, 03:47 AM »

Quote from: bobtskutter on February 03, 2023, 03:33 AM

Surely for this type of saw to work you would have to start the cut with the entire machine out off the workpiece, so the scoring blade makes the first cut. That's a lot of saw to be "hanging" on the guide rail.

I thought the green splinter guards that clip on the saw were suppose to prevent chip out on the top surface?

Bob

You’re right, Bob. More care will have to be taken, and maybe the far end of the rail will always have to be clamped to avoid any potential see-sawing of the rail when the saw’s put down on the cut entry end.

And in principle - the combination of the rail splinterguard and the saw splinter shoe should produce very clean cuts on laminate. But in reality - it sometimes doesn’t, especially on the cheaper materials which are virtually impossible to cut cleanly with anything other than a router. What I’ve sometimes had to do on troublesome material like this is to set the cutting depth at 2mm, put the saw on the far end of the rail, and make a scoring cut by pulling the saw backwards down the rail towards me, so the blade teeth are cutting downwards into the laminate, rather than bursting up through it. It doesn’t happen often - but it’s a PITA when it does.

bobtskutter · « **Reply #33 on:** February 03, 2023, 03:55 AM »

Thank you for sharing that, I'm very much at the learning stage with my wood work journey. I've been getting (very minor) chip out on plywood edges which I think is due to the splinter guard being trimmed too much by the panther blade. I'd not thought about doing a scoring cut by dragging the saw backwards. Much appreciated.

Regards
Bob

afish · « **Reply #34 on:** February 03, 2023, 08:04 AM »

I think its important to realize that the splinter guard will help "reduce" tear out and chipping but will NOT "eliminate" it. There are many factors that come into play including saw tuning, blade sharpness, blade selection, travel speed, sawing technique etc. You would be hard pressed to get perfect chip free cuts without pre scoring. We are working in an age where materials are uber expensive and sheet goods can easily reach $400 or more. It doesnt take many mistakes or bad cuts to pay for a saw at that rate. Not to mention the time to rebuild a piece if you damage it making a trim cut. As woodbutcherbower said making a shallow pass in reverse will typically make a huge improvement but is not a replacement the factors listed above.

woodbutcherbower · « **Reply #35 on:** February 03, 2023, 09:22 AM »

Quote from: afish on February 03, 2023, 08:04 AM

"saw tuning"

Especially important when using corded tools, with the trip hazard of cords trailing on the floor. Because if you don't C sharp - you'll B flat.

bobtskutter · « **Reply #36 on:** February 03, 2023, 04:04 PM »

hardy har har!

Bob

woodbutcherbower · « **Reply #37 on:** February 03, 2023, 04:30 PM »

Quote from: bobtskutter on February 03, 2023, 04:04 PM

hardy har har!

Bob

Just trying to brighten everyone's day. My work here is done .........

guybo · « **Reply #38 on:** February 03, 2023, 04:36 PM »

Over here we call it a power trip

woodbutcherbower · « **Reply #39 on:** February 03, 2023, 04:46 PM »

Keep 'em coming fellas. Right down to the wire.

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #40 on:** February 04, 2023, 07:50 AM »

Quote from: bobtskutter on February 03, 2023, 03:55 AM

Thank you for sharing that, I'm very much at the learning stage with my wood work journey. I've been getting (very minor) chip out on plywood edges which I think is due to the splinter guard being trimmed too much by the panther blade. I'd not thought about doing a scoring cut by dragging the saw backwards. Much appreciated.

Regards
Bob

The splinter guard really shouldn't be necessary with a ripping cut in the first place, but the point of them being a consumable is to keep a fresh one for those times when it is needed. If you use it on every cut, the effectiveness gets lost over time. I keep the clear dust collection enhancement version on mt TS55 99% of the time.

Maestronus · « **Reply #41 on:** February 07, 2023, 04:17 PM »

Info and pictures: https://shop.fehrbraunwalder.ch/?srv=marken&pg=det&groupId=100001010&artId=100788056&markid=FE577744&trefferUUID=00BAC0B0-59EF-496A-8FC176337D4D597D

Lincoln · « **Reply #42 on:** February 07, 2023, 04:33 PM »

Interesting that the scoring blade is .7mm thicker than the main blade. That's quite a big difference.

jimbo51 · « **Reply #43 on:** February 07, 2023, 07:40 PM »

"Interesting that the scoring blade is .7mm thicker than the main blade. That's quite a big difference."

How does this compare to the scoring blade on the big panel saws? Are their blades identical in width? If so, it seems that would make both sides of the cut a finish cut.

For Festool, does the main blade cut down the middle of the score or to match one side? I assume the latter to get the best edge. However, that means only one side has a finish cut and the other would need to be trimmed.

Lincoln · « **Reply #44 on:** February 07, 2023, 08:12 PM »

Most scoring blades are adjustable, as they're made up of two halves. Either metal shims or a screw type adjuster that spreads the two halves. You try to make it a fraction wider than the main blade kerf, both sides. If you look at the edge of the material cut, you should be able to see a very faint line where the scriber cut, but not feel it. The screw type adjuster is pretty easy, the shims can get frustrating though!

Oldwood · « **Reply #45 on:** February 08, 2023, 08:44 AM »

I always used the shim style and tried for .005 to .010 each side on a sliding panel saw. We used a bander that applied the glue to the edge so the gap was filled with glue and did not show much as the glue color matched the panel.

With the Festool scoring blade at . 7 mm thicker than the main blade it works out to about .014 each side, or 1/64". I think that may be needed for a hand held system. I found the wider glue line was not as noticeable as chips.

I used a piece of scrap MDF to set the scoring blade because it shows the 2 cuts well, on the particle board core it was hard to see.

I don't know how well the scoring cut would hide with preglued banding, also if you don't get a bond to the scored section that can cause a big problem.

The saw is not something I would be interested in but it will be interesting to see how well it works when people start using it.

afish · « **Reply #46 on:** February 08, 2023, 10:38 AM »

Quote from: woodbutcherbower on February 03, 2023, 09:22 AM

Quote from: afish on February 03, 2023, 08:04 AM

"saw tuning"

Especially important when using corded tools, with the trip hazard of cords trailing on the floor. Because if you don't C sharp - you'll B flat.

Yep, saw tuning. It's real...

Cheese · « **Reply #47 on:** February 08, 2023, 12:15 PM »

Well I have a question for those that are familiar with the scoring function on a large panel saw.

When properly adjusted, the Festool TSV 60 will leave a .35mm (.014") margin on both sides of the cut.
Oldwood prefers achieving a .12mm-.25mm (.005"-.010") margin on both sides.

So...why is there such a brouhaha about the Mafell MT 55 leaving a .1mm (.004") margin on one side? Is it because it only leaves that margin on one side? Would that .1mm margin be acceptable if it was left on both sides of the cut?

Certainly, a .004" margin is a lot more difficult to see than a .014" margin.

MikeGE · « **Reply #48 on:** February 08, 2023, 02:21 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on February 08, 2023, 12:15 PM

Well I have a question for those that are familiar with the scoring function on a large panel saw.

I realize this wasn't your question, and can't speak for others, but the scoring blade on my Minimax SC2 Classic slider has the same kerf as the Guhdo 48 and 72-tooth blades, which is 3.2mm. My Guhdo 28-tooth ripping blade has a 3.4mm kerf, but I don't use the scoring blade when I'm ripping hardwood on the slider.

After adjusting the lateral position of the scoring blade, I can't tell where it has been on the final cut through the main blade.

Lincoln · « **Reply #49 on:** February 08, 2023, 04:03 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on February 08, 2023, 12:15 PM

Well I have a question for those that are familiar with the scoring function on a large panel saw.

When properly adjusted, the Festool TSV 60 will leave a .35mm (.014") margin on both sides of the cut.
Oldwood prefers achieving a .12mm-.25mm (.005"-.010") margin on both sides.

So...why is there such a brouhaha about the Mafell MT 55 leaving a .1mm (.004") margin on one side? Is it because it only leaves that margin on one side? Would that .1mm margin be acceptable if it was left on both sides of the cut?

Certainly, a .004" margin is a lot more difficult to see than a .014" margin.

Mainly because people comment without really knowing what they're talking about and it seems a good way to criticise the Mafell saw.

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #50 on:** February 08, 2023, 06:30 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on February 08, 2023, 12:15 PM

Well I have a question for those that are familiar with the scoring function on a large panel saw.

When properly adjusted, the Festool TSV 60 will leave a .35mm (.014") margin on both sides of the cut.
Oldwood prefers achieving a .12mm-.25mm (.005"-.010") margin on both sides.

So...why is there such a brouhaha about the Mafell MT 55 leaving a .1mm (.004") margin on one side? Is it because it only leaves that margin on one side? Would that .1mm margin be acceptable if it was left on both sides of the cut?

Certainly, a .004" margin is a lot more difficult to see than a .014" margin.

I have used several different models with scoring blades. The one we have now is a Laguna. It has the shim style adjustment for width and a screw (knob) that adjusts the entire assembly left to right. It also has to be raised manually, though some machines do this automatically (when the blade is turned on)
It can be adjusted to literally perfect, though it may not be necessary. It entirely depends on what you are going to do with that edge. If you are butting 2 of them together, closer matters, but with something like PVC edge banding, it doesn't matter at all.
The machine we had years ago, in the old shop, worked with a tapered blade. It made the wider kerf as you raise it, cutting deeper.
That's how it works on the beam saw too, though all of the adjustments are done through the software/touch screen.

As far as the TSV60, I wonder why it couldn't be adjusted closer? Seems like it should be able in some way? .014 is almost 1/64", that would be visible, especially joining 2 of them.
Even if you had to do some kind of workaround, there has to be a way.

Cheese · « **Reply #51 on:** February 08, 2023, 10:46 PM »

Ya I'm heartened by the replies from both Lincoln and the CRG posts. I don't do this stuff for a living so I'm genuinely interested in "how this stuff works".

I'll go back to the MikeGE post and say that what he says just makes sense. Why would you want to overcut a kerf? If the kerf of the blade is 1.8 mm why wouldn't you want the score cut to be 1.8 mm?

There must be something here that I'm unaware of but an over cut of .014" is an ok deal? Really?

Oldwood · « **Reply #52 on:** February 09, 2023, 01:31 PM »

I think .004 each side would be minimum on a slider and .014 is too much. I think the tapered scoring cutters would be usable on a beam saw where the panel is held nice and flat but I found them useless on a slider where the panels are never flat and so the width of cut is not consistent. I think you would run into the same problem with the track saw although it might be better than the slider.

I have had blades reground by the sharp shop to change the kerf width maybe this would be an option for the Festool scoring cutter.

Cheese · « **Reply #53 on:** February 09, 2023, 02:14 PM »

Quote from: Oldwood on February 09, 2023, 01:31 PM

I think .004 each side would be minimum on a slider and .014 is too much. I think the tapered scoring cutters would be usable on a beam saw where the panel is held nice and flat but I found them useless on a slider where the panels are never flat and so the width of cut is not consistent. I think you would run into the same problem with the track saw although it might be better than the slider.

I have had blades reground by the sharp shop to change the kerf width maybe this would be an option for the Festool scoring cutter.

Very interesting...

Unfortunately the Festool scoring blade is diamond.

Oldwood · « **Reply #54 on:** February 09, 2023, 03:43 PM »

"Unfortunately the Festool scoring blade is diamond."

Did not see that. We won't be grinding that down then

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #55 on:** February 09, 2023, 07:15 PM »

Quote from: Oldwood on February 09, 2023, 01:31 PM

I think .004 each side would be minimum on a slider and .014 is too much. I think the tapered scoring cutters would be usable on a beam saw where the panel is held nice and flat but I found them useless on a slider where the panels are never flat and so the width of cut is not consistent. I think you would run into the same problem with the track saw although it might be better than the slider.

I have had blades reground by the sharp shop to change the kerf width maybe this would be an option for the Festool scoring cutter.

That's what I was getting at as far as a "work around", but that kind of custom grinding is probably not available to everyone.

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #56 on:** February 09, 2023, 07:18 PM »

Quote from: Oldwood on February 09, 2023, 03:43 PM

"Unfortunately the Festool scoring blade is diamond."

Did not see that. We won't be grinding that down then

Diamond can be ground "somehow"? I don't pretend to understand how, but Lietz sharpens the Diamond cutters we use on the CNC machines.
There has to be some way to do it, or it wouldn't be sharp when I was new.

Oldwood · « **Reply #57 on:** February 10, 2023, 08:43 AM »

"Diamond can be ground "somehow"?

Yes it must be possible, but I have no knowledge of the process or costs involved. I looked at diamond cutters for the CNC but we did not have the volume in any one process to justify the cost over carbide.

In thinking about the .014 a side clearance I wonder if Festool testing indicated this was needed based on typical saw on track clearances.

If you clamp down a track set the saw on it with a dial indicator on both ends and twist the saw left and right I wonder what the deviation would be? There will also be track defection but I don't know if it would be a factor? The TSV 60 being longer in length would amplify this issue so that would need to be accounted for.

I am sure Festool has a reason for the width of the scoring blade and it will be interesting to see how well they work in use.

ChuckS · « **Reply #58 on:** February 10, 2023, 09:28 AM »

Scoring blades are slightly wider than the main ones on the sliders to cater for the different blade thicknesses among brands/wobble, and to prevent all possible chip-outs on the downward cutting. So in practice, scoring blades and cutting blades are not the same width.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #59 on:** February 10, 2023, 09:58 AM »

Maybe they expect the main blade to wobble that much?