Author Topic: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table  (Read 2686 times)

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Offline Jeffro123

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45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« on: March 02, 2021, 01:35 PM »
Just wondering if anyone has experienced this problem and if there is a solution.

I am using TS55 on CMS table and when using mitre gauge with sliding table attatchment, cuts are perfect 90 degree and square.

When I  then adjust the angle-of the TS55 to 45 degrees for a mitre cut, the cuts are no longer 90 degrees.   I am baffled at how this can be so.

Is there an adjustment in the saw to fix this inconsistency when performing cuts at different angles.


Offline Coen

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2021, 12:41 PM »
Well if you cut at 45 degrees it's not at 90 degrees  ::)  [huh]

But what do you mean? It's not cutting square when doing 45 degrees?

Offline squall_line

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2021, 05:01 PM »
Just wondering if anyone has experienced this problem and if there is a solution.

I am using TS55 on CMS table and when using mitre gauge with sliding table attatchment, cuts are perfect 90 degree and square.

When I  then adjust the angle-of the TS55 to 45 degrees for a mitre cut, the cuts are no longer 90 degrees.   I am baffled at how this can be so.

Is there an adjustment in the saw to fix this inconsistency when performing cuts at different angles.

The subject is "bevel cut", which I interpret to mean the tilt of the blade in relation to the base plate.

The body of the message talks about the mitre gauge on the table, and then adjusting the angle of the TS55 for a mitre cut, which I interpret to be the angle in relation to the grain of the material / fence.

And then saying that 45 degrees isn't 90 degrees, which is true.

Can you clarify a bit more on what is happening vs. what is expected?

Are you tilting the blade/head of the machine in relation to the plate, cutting the material, and then mating it up and it's not a square corner?

Or are you changing the angle of the mitre fence, cutting a 45 degree cross-cut, mating it up, and it's not square?

Or some combination of both?

Online MikeGE

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2021, 08:53 PM »
I think what the OP is saying is the length of the cut edge is square to the sides when the blade is perpendicular to the surface.  When he tilts the blade to make a bevel cut, the length of the cut edge is not square to the sides.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2021, 09:30 PM »
I think what the OP is saying is the length of the cut edge is square to the sides when the blade is perpendicular to the surface.  When he tilts the blade to make a bevel cut, the length of the cut edge is not square to the sides.
That's my interpretation as well.

This is what I'd do (after unplugging the saw):

1) With the blade tilted and fence set, check the distance between one of the blade teeth on the front and the fence
2) Rotate that tooth to the back, and while holding he blade steady, measure the distance from that tooth to the fence again.

Are the measurements the same? If yes, there's no machine error.

Possible user error: If the work ripped was long, there's a good chance that the work was not held tight to the fence as it was pushed along the fence from start to finish.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 09:49 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2021, 08:22 AM »
I don't have your particular setup but I am a frugal carpenter and will offer insights based on usage of another blade centric usage.  Please forum members bare with me - this is just a thought.

On my Kapex I tend to use my blades well past the point of needing sharpening.  As I cut a standard 90 degrees crosscut I will have to go slower to account for the dullness.  Doable.  When I then do that same 90 degree cut but then bevel (tilt) the blade, then cuts will no longer be 90 degrees along the face of the material.  Why?  Well, by beveling I am asking the blade to cut more material (the hypotenuse of a triangle is longer) and other forces come into play.

This doesn't happen with a sharp blade that can cut and extract efficiently.

Change your blade and test to see if your results are better would be my advice.

Respectfully,

Peter

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2021, 09:09 AM »
The TS-55 in the CMS module cannot be beveled.

With the angle stop turned to 45º there is greater stress on the side of the blade. Try clamping the work piece to the angle stop fence and enter the blade a little slower when making a miter cut.

As Peter mentioned check the blade.

Tom

Offline ChuckM

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2021, 10:04 AM »
The TS-55 in the CMS module cannot be beveled.
 

Tom
Knowing nothing about the CMS, if it can't be beveled, does it mean the set-up can't cut work at an angle like a table saw? If so, what is it for?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2021, 10:08 AM by ChuckM »

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2021, 10:39 AM »
The TS-55 in the CMS module cannot be beveled.
 

Tom
Knowing nothing about the CMS, if it can't be beveled, does it mean the set-up can't cut work at an angle like a table saw? If so, what is it for?

You can cut an angle using the angle stop (same one as the MFT) works great with the sliding table. This is no differnt than using the miter gauge on the table saw that goes in the table top groove.  Actually the sliding table is much better, but you get the idea how it works...

You cannot cut a bevel as you can with most table saws.

Ripping and cross cutting.

Tom


Offline ChuckM

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2021, 10:46 AM »
Thanks for the explanation. Then some of us obviously have misunderstood the OP's question.

That's why I always inlcude pictures/sketches with my questions or answers when there's a chance that people can misunderstand what I want to say.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2021, 10:51 AM »
Thanks for the explanation. Then some of us obviously have misunderstood the OP's question.

That's why I always inlcude pictures/sketches with my questions or answers when there's a chance that people can misunderstand what I want to say.

The misunderstanding when it comes to a discussion of cutting angles is usually the improper application/use of the words bevel and miter.

Tom

Offline squall_line

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2021, 11:19 AM »
Thanks for the explanation. Then some of us obviously have misunderstood the OP's question.

That's why I always inlcude pictures/sketches with my questions or answers when there's a chance that people can misunderstand what I want to say.

The misunderstanding when it comes to a discussion of cutting angles is usually the improper application/use of the words bevel and miter.

Tom

The confusion/conflation of mitre and bevel are part of the reason I asked the OP for clarification, for sure.

I'm usually called out as being too pedantic, but these two terms do have pretty specific meaning, so I don't feel bad about asking in this case.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2021, 11:52 AM »
The terms are offer misunderstood.

Bevel = tilting the blade while making a cut

Miter = blade at 90 degrees but cutting across a board at an angle while making a cut

Compound Cut / Miter = Doing both of the both above at the same time while making a cut

Peter

Offline Crazyraceguy

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2021, 12:00 PM »
So then why is it called a miter-fold, when you are actually making bevel cuts?
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Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2021, 01:03 PM »
So then why is it called a miter-fold, when you are actually making bevel cuts?

Back in the days before power tools trim stock was cut in a miter box. The saw could only swing from one side to the other through 90 degrees but always stood square to the table. A bevel was nigh impossible.

Trim stock for a room was cut with the back agains the fence. Picture frame stock was cut laying down. You could call the trim stock cut a bevel cut and the frame stock a miter cut since both were cut with the same setting on the same device you cou also just call the cuts miters.

Offline Svar

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2021, 01:44 PM »
@Jeffro123
Your board is not lying flat on the table (perhaps the board is twisted or cupped). At 0 deg. bevel (perpendicular) it does not matter and your miter (cross cut) will still be 90 deg. At 45 deg. bevel the cut line will deviate from 90 deg. miter if the board has non uniform thickness or is not flat on the table.
You can absolutely cut bevels on CMS-TS55. It's just not as sturdy as most table saws, hence extra care is needed.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2021, 01:48 PM by Svar »

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2021, 03:22 PM »
So then why is it called a miter-fold, when you are actually making bevel cuts?

Because you’re creating a mitered join by folding the bevels together.

Tom

Offline Crazyraceguy

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2021, 06:48 PM »
So then why is it called a miter-fold, when you are actually making bevel cuts?

Because you’re creating a mitered join by folding the bevels together.

Tom

So, it's a miter when two miters are joined.....and still a miter when two bevels are joined?

Seems kind of like the dado and groove thing. Dados go across the grain and grooves go along the grain. The resulting shape is the same either way.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1400
MFK700
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CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
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ETS EC 125
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Offline ChuckM

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2021, 07:02 PM »
Snip.

Seems kind of like the dado and groove thing. Dados go across the grain and grooves go along the grain. The resulting shape is the same either way.

Using proper terminology allows people to communicate (especially when it's all text and no images) and understand each other or the subject better. Though dados and grooves look the same in the end, their treatments can be different if hand tools are used. And for good reasons, rails and stiles are terms woodworkers use to describe those components.

Similarly, miters and bevels are both angled cuts, but miters are usually considered endgrain, not edge grain while bevels can be either, which will have gluing implications.

Offline Crazyraceguy

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2021, 07:46 PM »
What happens when you bring sheet goods into it? MDF has no grain whatsoever, plywood goes both ways? Dado, groove, miter, bevel, the terminology doesn't matter some much there.

 The people I work with refer to ply by the grain direction of the surface veneer, mostly because of the difference in the way it reacts to saw blades.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1400
MFK700
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75

Offline ChuckM

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Re: 45 degree bevel problems with ts55 on CMS table
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2021, 07:57 PM »
If a situation is not applicable, it doesn't make the concept of proper terminology less valuable in situations that it's applicable. Terminology still helps when or where it can help.