Author Topic: Systainers generation 3 (systainer3) weak point: back panel lacks stiffness  (Read 2216 times)

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Offline bidn

  • Posts: 12
  • hobbyist
Hi,

I have discovered a weak point with the new, gen 3 systainer3, which was not present with the previous generation.
This happened yesterday when I received an ordered systainer3 L 237, whose lid I could barely open. Upon inspection (I should have taken a picture, but the systainer is already packed for return), I saw the origin of the problem: a part of the back panel, which should be on the exterior side, was actually inside, behind the bottom part of the lid, on the back side.

Today I received a new shipment (from another dealer), this time a mixture of gen 2 and gen 3, so I checked for any differences re. the backpanels (both for the regular and the midi L sizes):
- with gen 2 (the normal "T-Loc"), the back panel is rigid
- with gen 3 (systainer3), the back panel, the more so in the area close to the lid, is not rigid, but flexible.

I use a lot of systainers to store all kinds of stuff (just anything needing storage, not specially related to construction), trying to find the cheapest ones (when you have many, it amounts to a lot of money, more than my tools...). So far I have been buying a few systainer3 because the price of the gen 2 had increased (there seems to be a shortage) here in Europe, and some dealers have decreased the prices of some gen 3 systainers, making them now cheaper than the roughly corresponding models. But after this experience (of the backpanel blocking the opening of the lid), except for the XXL (exists only with gen 3), I will try to stick with gen 2, even when they are more expensive than gen 3.

BTW there is also a, less annoying, weak point with gen 2, but unfortunately it was not corrected with gen 3 which inherited it.
It happened to me than when I pushed a gen 2 on a surface (e.g. a shelf) upon which there was a fixed obstacle (e.g. the top of a clamp fixed to the shelf) in the path of the back foot of the systainer, the systainer will be torn open, the rift starting at the blocked foot. I unfortunately can't see any reinforcement in this area with gen 3. The issue doesn't apply to gen 1 (no feet), but I prefer and love the ease of the T-Loc system.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 09:14 AM by bidn »
BS 75 set, HKC 55 Li EB+ SCA, TS 75 EBQ+, Erika 85 Ec + options, KS 120 EB, OF 1400 EBQ+, OF 1010 EBQ+,  Carvex  PSC 420+, ZH-SYS-PS-420, P1 cc, RO 90 DX FEQ+, RO 150 FEQ+, Deros 5650cv, Deos Delta 663CV, CTL 22 E SG, CTL 26 E, PDC 18/4 set XL, Ti 18+3, C15 Li 4,2 Set, Sys 1 CE-Sort, many Milwaukee and a few Metabo 18V.

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 543
At least once I received a Systainer T-Loc where the seam between the lid and the bottom was upset along the back side. Pretty sure the cause was the shipping box took a pretty good hit.

Offline cpw

  • Posts: 267
I ended up getting a tool in a systainer 3 with this problem today.  The vendor seemed to pack it well, but still it was crossed.  The tool is fine, and I could pry it open, but the systainer doesn't quite close perfectly. :(

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2340
Nothing new. T-Loc is the same if not worse, happened to me many times with generation 2. There have been multiple threads on this. I thought they fixed it in Sys3 by adding a third middle "hinge", but apparently not.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 09:53 PM by Svar »

Offline cpw

  • Posts: 267
It's possible the hinge made things worse by having things even stiffer, so that a misalignment is more likely to bind and result in permanent damage.  I've had my Systainers rack and not close properly before (or get closed a bit wrong), but haven't had them damaged from it except with the Systainer3 that came with the Vecturo.

Offline woodferret

  • Posts: 82
I had this issue with the Sys3 M337.

Offline bidn

  • Posts: 12
  • hobbyist
I ended up getting a tool in a systainer 3 with this problem today.  The vendor seemed to pack it well, but still it was crossed.  The tool is fine, and I could pry it open, but the systainer doesn't quite close perfectly. :(

Thank you for the picture.

It looks like what I had, but worse, so that yours can be opened. In my case it was not that bad, and I dared not use force, as it would have made the damage worse, but then I couldn't open it.

BTW in my case the package was fine, so the fault must have occurred before they shipped it. I assume it may have occurred during the assembly or handling at the factory.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 03:45 AM by bidn »
BS 75 set, HKC 55 Li EB+ SCA, TS 75 EBQ+, Erika 85 Ec + options, KS 120 EB, OF 1400 EBQ+, OF 1010 EBQ+,  Carvex  PSC 420+, ZH-SYS-PS-420, P1 cc, RO 90 DX FEQ+, RO 150 FEQ+, Deros 5650cv, Deos Delta 663CV, CTL 22 E SG, CTL 26 E, PDC 18/4 set XL, Ti 18+3, C15 Li 4,2 Set, Sys 1 CE-Sort, many Milwaukee and a few Metabo 18V.

Offline bidn

  • Posts: 12
  • hobbyist
Nothing new. T-Loc is the same if not worse, happened to me many times with generation 2. There have been multiple threads on this. I thought they fixed it in Sys3 by adding a third middle "hinge", but apparently not.

I didn't know that this issue also occured with gen 2 (T Loc), thank you for the information.

In my case, I ordered countless empty T-Loc gen 2 systainers at several locations, and I never came across such a thing.
Here just one of the first gen 3 (not counting the sortainer ones with the transparent cover) I order has this fault.

Have you checked and compared the rigidity of the back panels between gen 3 (systainer3) and gen 2 ( T-Loc)? The back panel of gen  2 is rigid, stiff, while that of gen 3 is wholly supple, flexible, so it seems unfortunately logic to me that this fault will occur much more with gen 3.
BS 75 set, HKC 55 Li EB+ SCA, TS 75 EBQ+, Erika 85 Ec + options, KS 120 EB, OF 1400 EBQ+, OF 1010 EBQ+,  Carvex  PSC 420+, ZH-SYS-PS-420, P1 cc, RO 90 DX FEQ+, RO 150 FEQ+, Deros 5650cv, Deos Delta 663CV, CTL 22 E SG, CTL 26 E, PDC 18/4 set XL, Ti 18+3, C15 Li 4,2 Set, Sys 1 CE-Sort, many Milwaukee and a few Metabo 18V.

Offline bidn

  • Posts: 12
  • hobbyist
It's possible the hinge made things worse by having things even stiffer, so that a misalignment is more likely to bind and result in permanent damage.  I've had my Systainers rack and not close properly before (or get closed a bit wrong), but haven't had them damaged from it except with the Systainer3 that came with the Vecturo.

Actually the back of the systainer3 is not stiff at all, causing the issue. Maybe they thought that by adding a middle hinge, they could relax the rigidity of the back (at least in the top area close to the lid), but the back (with systainer3, gen 3) is so flexible that the issue occurs between the hinge and the sides.
BS 75 set, HKC 55 Li EB+ SCA, TS 75 EBQ+, Erika 85 Ec + options, KS 120 EB, OF 1400 EBQ+, OF 1010 EBQ+,  Carvex  PSC 420+, ZH-SYS-PS-420, P1 cc, RO 90 DX FEQ+, RO 150 FEQ+, Deros 5650cv, Deos Delta 663CV, CTL 22 E SG, CTL 26 E, PDC 18/4 set XL, Ti 18+3, C15 Li 4,2 Set, Sys 1 CE-Sort, many Milwaukee and a few Metabo 18V.

Offline bidn

  • Posts: 12
  • hobbyist
I had this issue with the Sys3 M337.

Thank you, nice to hear more confirmation.
Hopefully they would get some feedback and fix the issue by making the systainer3 (gen 3) back panel as stiff as that of the T-Loc (gen 2) systainer, it should be a small update.
BS 75 set, HKC 55 Li EB+ SCA, TS 75 EBQ+, Erika 85 Ec + options, KS 120 EB, OF 1400 EBQ+, OF 1010 EBQ+,  Carvex  PSC 420+, ZH-SYS-PS-420, P1 cc, RO 90 DX FEQ+, RO 150 FEQ+, Deros 5650cv, Deos Delta 663CV, CTL 22 E SG, CTL 26 E, PDC 18/4 set XL, Ti 18+3, C15 Li 4,2 Set, Sys 1 CE-Sort, many Milwaukee and a few Metabo 18V.

Offline notenoughcash

  • Posts: 90
weird.

my sys3's back is solid as a rock, whereas my gen 2 is a bit floppy in comparison
turns out that woodworking is 1% making things you'll use, 4% making bespoke high end firewood, 15% cleaning, and 80% looking for the bl**dy thing you just put down

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7253
And in my 12 years of owning Festool I never had any problem whatsoever with my classics. Hm, I wonder why ......  [scratch chin]

Offline bidn

  • Posts: 12
  • hobbyist
weird.

my sys3's back is solid as a rock, whereas my gen 2 is a bit floppy in comparison

BTW, I don't mean the systainer3 organisers, mine at least are fine.

The systainer3 I am talking about are from 2 recent orders (from different dealers in Europe) which I received this week so probably recently produced:
Order #1:
- Tanos L 187,
- Tanos L 237 (the faulty one)
Order # 2:
- Festool L 187
- Festool M 137
- Festool M 237 x 2
- Festool M 337
 (all light grey, RAL 7035).
All of these have no stiffness, rigidity at all in the back, a light pressure with a finger and it deforms a lot. Luckily the back panel takes back its shape when you remove your finger, but I can imagine that if there is a light pressure on the back while the lid is being moved, then this would cause the defect.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 07:45 AM by bidn »
BS 75 set, HKC 55 Li EB+ SCA, TS 75 EBQ+, Erika 85 Ec + options, KS 120 EB, OF 1400 EBQ+, OF 1010 EBQ+,  Carvex  PSC 420+, ZH-SYS-PS-420, P1 cc, RO 90 DX FEQ+, RO 150 FEQ+, Deros 5650cv, Deos Delta 663CV, CTL 22 E SG, CTL 26 E, PDC 18/4 set XL, Ti 18+3, C15 Li 4,2 Set, Sys 1 CE-Sort, many Milwaukee and a few Metabo 18V.

Offline bidn

  • Posts: 12
  • hobbyist
And in my 12 years of owning Festool I never had any problem whatsoever with my classics. Hm, I wonder why ......  [scratch chin]

Me too. I never manage to damage one.
They are definitely the most solid, this is why I keep buying some sometimes for heavy, damaging stuff, like metallic parts (e.g. big hammers and chisels), freely moving inside, really all kind of stuff (even very heavy antic stone pots, etc.) for which only massive wooden boxes would be OK.
But attachment is clumsy, T-Loc makes it so much easier and faster.
The dream systainer would have the solidity of the gen 1 and the ease of use of the gen 2.
BS 75 set, HKC 55 Li EB+ SCA, TS 75 EBQ+, Erika 85 Ec + options, KS 120 EB, OF 1400 EBQ+, OF 1010 EBQ+,  Carvex  PSC 420+, ZH-SYS-PS-420, P1 cc, RO 90 DX FEQ+, RO 150 FEQ+, Deros 5650cv, Deos Delta 663CV, CTL 22 E SG, CTL 26 E, PDC 18/4 set XL, Ti 18+3, C15 Li 4,2 Set, Sys 1 CE-Sort, many Milwaukee and a few Metabo 18V.

Offline bidn

  • Posts: 12
  • hobbyist
I realized that the decreased stiffness applies actually to all panels of gen 3, but on the other sides it is less of an issue because the left and right side are shorter, and the front has some reinforcements. Also they will not be prone to the defect I mentioned, because when you open the lid it moves away from the sides and the front, while it moves downwards on the back panel (being on the other side of the rotation axis).

This lead me to measure the thickness of the panels for all three generations of the "M"-sized (most common) kind of systainers.
This thickness is not constant: a minority of flat areas (e.g. on the front) are 0.5 mm thicker than the majority of the areas, this in each generation.
I am not taking very special (e.g. small rectangular tube-shaped) areas into account (these seem to be even thicker, but there is very little of them), but only the two main kinds of flat panel surfaces.

Here are my findings for the thickness of all four panels:

Generation:           Majority of flat areas:  Minority of flat areas:
1 (Classic)3.0 mm3.5 mm
2 (T-Loc)2.5 mm3.0 mm
3 (Systainer3)2.0 mm2.5 mm

« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 07:39 AM by bidn »
BS 75 set, HKC 55 Li EB+ SCA, TS 75 EBQ+, Erika 85 Ec + options, KS 120 EB, OF 1400 EBQ+, OF 1010 EBQ+,  Carvex  PSC 420+, ZH-SYS-PS-420, P1 cc, RO 90 DX FEQ+, RO 150 FEQ+, Deros 5650cv, Deos Delta 663CV, CTL 22 E SG, CTL 26 E, PDC 18/4 set XL, Ti 18+3, C15 Li 4,2 Set, Sys 1 CE-Sort, many Milwaukee and a few Metabo 18V.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 809
And in my 12 years of owning Festool I never had any problem whatsoever with my classics. Hm, I wonder why ......  [scratch chin]

I think I had it once to an international shipped T-Loc Systainer. Also seen it in new deliveries at my dealer.

But you just open it, press it flat and it functions as new.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7253
And in my 12 years of owning Festool I never had any problem whatsoever with my classics. Hm, I wonder why ......  [scratch chin]

I think I had it once to an international shipped T-Loc Systainer. Also seen it in new deliveries at my dealer.

But you just open it, press it flat and it functions as new.

Well, I am probably to picky, but I think a quality toolbox should not have the opportunity for misalignment like a cheap tupperware box.

Offline notenoughcash

  • Posts: 90
weird.

my sys3's back is solid as a rock, whereas my gen 2 is a bit floppy in comparison

BTW, I don't mean the systainer3 organisers, mine at least are fine.

The systainer3 I am talking about are from 2 recent orders (from different dealers in Europe) which I received this week so probably recently produced:
Order #1:
- Tanos L 187,
- Tanos L 237 (the faulty one)
Order # 2:
- Festool L 187
- Festool M 137
- Festool M 237 x 2
- Festool M 337
 (all light grey, RAL 7035).
All of these have no stiffness, rigidity at all in the back, a light pressure with a finger and it deforms a lot. Luckily the back panel takes back its shape when you remove your finger, but I can imagine that if there is a light pressure on the back while the lid is being moved, then this would cause the defect.

ya

mine is the m187 and the sys3
turns out that woodworking is 1% making things you'll use, 4% making bespoke high end firewood, 15% cleaning, and 80% looking for the bl**dy thing you just put down