Author Topic: Sys3 rails in UK  (Read 5465 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Freetime101

  • Posts: 13
Sys3 rails in UK
« on: January 27, 2022, 09:14 AM »
Hi All,

It's seems the only benefit to the new Sys3's is the built in rack/rail. However, I cannot find these anywhere in the UK other than 3d printed copies for £20 each! $40 for a set of 4 is more palatable but shipping from the US puts this out.

Are they available across here?

Not looking to start another thread bashing the Sys3, just looking for some reasonably priced rails in the UK.
Of course I can cut a strip of plywood to size for free...

Thanks!

Offline GarryMartin

  • Posts: 1929
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2022, 09:39 AM »
You won't find them on sale from Festool in the UK. Bott have the distribution rights in the UK.

https://config.bottsmartvan.co.uk/accessories?q=systainer


Offline Freetime101

  • Posts: 13
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2022, 11:27 AM »
Thanks Garry,

Unfortunatley the Bott version is still pretty pricey and not as neat as the Festool USA version; https://www.festoolusa.com/accessory/204871---sys3-sn4

I guess I'll wait for them to become available, pretty dissapointing that they're not available here given both Festool & Tanos are German  [sad]

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1498
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2022, 02:01 PM »
Thanks Garry,

Unfortunatley the Bott version is still pretty pricey and not as neat as the Festool USA version; https://www.festoolusa.com/accessory/204871---sys3-sn4

I guess I'll wait for them to become available, pretty dissapointing that they're not available here given both Festool & Tanos are German  [sad]

Festool and Tanos are German, but Bott has the distro rights because they're a Bott rail with a Festool logo.  Tanos conformed to Bott, not the other way around in this case.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1123
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2022, 02:22 PM »
You won't find them on sale from Festool in the UK. Bott have the distribution rights in the UK.

https://config.bottsmartvan.co.uk/accessories?q=systainer
European rant:

That web is so utterly arrogant starting with the url it is not funny. You cannot even open that website unless you own a van (!).

/Sure. You can fake/lie you own one, but that is not the point here./

That company just managed to piss me off in 30 seconds such that I feel pure despect and detest when I think about these arrogant morons. Did not even need to come along with a product or a distributor of theirs, they are so stinking.


At least now I understand the cause of the SYS3 broken-by-design heights non-system.

It all makes sense now. It is not only that Bott insisted on their idiotic height non-system. I am now certain they actively prevented Festool to offer alternate heights as part of the collaboration deal. The SYS3 112 is apparently the only one Festool was able to force-through as they had an objective reason of needing it for the Kapex etc. height alignment.

It is so simple now, Bott is just an arrogant evil company. And it should be treated as such. Nuf said.

/Off goes to create a 3D model for printing the rails. Not a penny should go to these people if it does not have to./


EDIT:
By the way, that website would be illegal under the European Union privacy regulation. It is illegal to enforce data is provided by a website visitor as a condition for the visitor to access the site.
/That does not go for paid portals but even those cannot have a popup focing visitor to disclose information about themselves just so the website loads AFTER which they can see the TOS etc. etc./
« Last Edit: January 27, 2022, 04:07 PM by mino »
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1336
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2022, 03:50 PM »
Mino - You’re so right.

A couple of years ago I discovered that Bott had a rail for securing cargo in vans, lorries, trailers and so on.
I tracked down a dealer, profiled as a “Bott Center” - Talking to a guy at the phone, he advised me to visit them (eagerly wanting to know how and where I would use their product).
I went, found them in a building looking more like a “nice shed”.. They were more hiding than showing. But nonetheless, I went inside to find: Nothing, they only had catalogs, and a small shop where they mounted van interiors.. So I asked if they had something at all that I could see, but no. I got their price by meter length of rail, and thought no.. this is for someone with a very very special interest and went home again, with my trailer that I had brought along.

I asked a few coworkers, suppliers and contractors that we worked with, and everyone said Bott-what? None had heard of them.
So why has Festool (Or this may well be Tanos..) teamed up with them?
Adapting Systainer(TM) to a company that don’t even distribute their products, everything was on special order for one or several (fleet) vehicles.

And if I understand it right, Festool don’t sell the brackets (or not allowed..?) in Europe. Then,
it’s merely useless. A “feature” in a widely accepted storage box/transport a very few have access to makes it useless. Those who get this system in their vehicle most probably won’t bother or can tell the difference anyhow.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline simnick

  • Posts: 62
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2022, 05:24 PM »

Offline Lincoln

  • Posts: 276
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2022, 06:03 PM »
You won't find them on sale from Festool in the UK. Bott have the distribution rights in the UK.

https://config.bottsmartvan.co.uk/accessories?q=systainer
European rant:

That web is so utterly arrogant starting with the url it is not funny. You cannot even open that website unless you own a van (!).

/Sure. You can fake/lie you own one, but that is not the point here./

That company just managed to piss me off in 30 seconds such that I feel pure despect and detest when I think about these arrogant morons. Did not even need to come along with a product or a distributor of theirs, they are so stinking.


At least now I understand the cause of the SYS3 broken-by-design heights non-system.

It all makes sense now. It is not only that Bott insisted on their idiotic height non-system. I am now certain they actively prevented Festool to offer alternate heights as part of the collaboration deal. The SYS3 112 is apparently the only one Festool was able to force-through as they had an objective reason of needing it for the Kapex etc. height alignment.

It is so simple now, Bott is just an arrogant evil company. And it should be treated as such. Nuf said.

/Off goes to create a 3D model for printing the rails. Not a penny should go to these people if it does not have to./


EDIT:
By the way, that website would be illegal under the European Union privacy regulation. It is illegal to enforce data is provided by a website visitor as a condition for the visitor to access the site.
/That does not go for paid portals but even those cannot have a popup focing visitor to disclose information about themselves just so the website loads AFTER which they can see the TOS etc. etc./

Wouldn't have thought that Festool HAD to change to the Sys3, so aren't they partly to blame as well?

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1123
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2022, 06:24 PM »
...
So why has Festool (Or this may well be Tanos..) teamed up with them?
Adapting Systainer(TM) to a company that don’t even distribute their products, everything was on special order for one or several (fleet) vehicles.
...
That is actually quite understandable.

Bott apparently has a HUGE (read >50% at certain key markets) presence in the -corporate- service fleet market in Europe. The service vehicles of the utilities etc. The "freelancer & trades" market is the smaller one for them as the corporate market is hugely profitable and very predictable. Especially if you are the market leader.

This is likely where their arrogance comes from. It is clear their company ethos is built around arranging for tens-to-hundreds van conversions per sale deal. They really do not understand the freelancer market. Not to mention the hobby non-van market who just needs some rails for their systainer cabinets.

Now, I do understand where this comes from working for a corporate. The first rule of a corporation is you establish processes and guidelines how to prevent this arrogance to creep into your customer relationships. The first part of any corporate brainwashing is to RESPECT your customer. Even when they are spewing toxic junk at you and you are right and they are wrong.

Bott is probably private and never got the message. Well, tough luck. They will get no sympathy from me here.

Festool (but I assume mainly the TANOS division of TTS) managed to convince Bott to give up their own box system and switch to the "standard" TANOS systainer. In return, TANOS had to make a bunch of concessions to Bott related to dimensions. This is seem mainly in the new "L series" which are standardised to the Bott width racks from prior and the heights which are aligned to the same.
In return, TANOS gets established as THE systainer vendor which was a strategic benefit to TTS given patents on T-Loc can take them only so far. Festool also goes for the ride as it makes them even more attractive to the same corporate market. But generally for Festool it was a wash - loss of "system" for some additional sales on the corporate side.

The real play would be to establish TANOS in the wider market once the T-Loc patents expire. It was cleary the TTS who wanted/needed the deal which gave Bott the upper hand and allowed them to push through the junk we see here.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2022, 06:48 PM by mino »
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1123
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2022, 06:42 PM »
Someone has already built a 3d file here on FOG: https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-and-tanos-systainers/sys3-bins-3d-files-for-printing-your-own/msg633695/#msg633695
Thanks.

Unfortunately those are just STL files /i.e. not editable/ and they look too close to the Festool/Bott version. Even if they were not made as a copy, one would be hard-pressed to argue they were not in a court of law.

These things are patented. So if one wants to publish something folks can legally use - possibly even sell on - one needs to make the rails as "something which will work with TANOS SYS3" which is legal. Not "something is a copy of TANOS rails". Patents do apply to making products "which-are-a-copy-of" but do not prevent making products which are "compatible-with".

As long as I can make a rail design which will work with the SYS3 railing but will _not_ be based on the Bott/Systainer rail design I can publish it under a free/open license and people will be free to take advantage of it including printing commercial for reselling etc. So that would be my goal here.
Will probably go for a different base width for the same reason - probably something aligned to the SYS-AZ installation width with the option of "cutting-off" the bottom of the print (aka the side) to make it arbitrarily narrower for the user need.

Hold your breadth though, that will be a couple weeks work including prototypes and I have other priorities now. But will happen. They just ticked me off nough to not care about my personal ROI here.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2022, 06:44 PM by mino »
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1788
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2022, 06:42 PM »
Festool only has to thank itself for putting just about everything in a 20mm bigger box. What tool got a smaller box with the conversion to Sys3?

Wondering if I should buy another Sys T-Loc Domino assortment before they are 20mm taller too...

Offline Freetime101

  • Posts: 13
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2022, 03:49 AM »
Someone has already built a 3d file here on FOG: https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-and-tanos-systainers/sys3-bins-3d-files-for-printing-your-own/msg633695/#msg633695

Fantastic, thanks - just need to find a friend with a 3d printer now  [big grin]

Offline Systainer.Store

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 296
    • systainer.store
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2022, 09:38 AM »
This is a good discussion and rant.

As a dealer in the USA, I too struggle to understand why Tanos/Festool/Bott don't make the rails easier and more accessible in all regions when this is a keep feature of the Systainer3.  I've sold rails in the US and I've shipped orders across the globe too. 

I'm happy to quote shipping to your destination, get in touch.  And it may be that buying in a bulk with some friends help, I'v had a couple customers do that. 

I'd also recommend writing to Festool and Tanos to express your opinion.  Let the customer be heard. 

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1788
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2022, 07:22 PM »
Someone has already built a 3d file here on FOG: https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-and-tanos-systainers/sys3-bins-3d-files-for-printing-your-own/msg633695/#msg633695

Fantastic, thanks - just need to find a friend with a 3d printer now  [big grin]

3D printed is usually a lot weaker than the real injection molded thing.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1123
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2022, 04:49 AM »
Someone has already built a 3d file here on FOG: https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-and-tanos-systainers/sys3-bins-3d-files-for-printing-your-own/msg633695/#msg633695

Fantastic, thanks - just need to find a friend with a 3d printer now  [big grin]
3D printed is usually a lot weaker than the real injection molded thing.
True, but not necessarily.
That is usually when incorrect settings/material are used and/or someone copies an injection-molded design and makes a 3d model of it.

When designing somethign for FDM 3d print, they key is to undestand that cavities are "free/easy" while material "merging" is not ideal.
Wehn designing for injection molding, the key is to understand that cavities are "hard-to-impossible" while material merging is almost perfect.

This means that for 3D print you want something "outwardsly robust" with holes inside, while for injection molding you want something shell-y with as simple as possible shapes to decrease the price of the molds (which are like 90% the cost in a low-volume part).

If one designs a piece for FDM printing from the scratch, it can and often is stronger than a part designed for the same function to be injection-molded. The issue here is the rails are designed assuming injection-molded rails, so it will be tricky. But there is almost 5mm space in systainer rail which should do at the reach level needed. What will be tricky is to print in such a way the deposited fiber will be perpendicular to the main sheer load or to use some strengthening with metail inserts etc.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1788
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2022, 05:21 PM »
To be concluded; we have worldwide postal service for a reason  [tongue]

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 276
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2022, 07:08 PM »
That web is so utterly arrogant starting with the url it is not funny. You cannot even open that website unless you own a van (!).
To be fair, that url is a direct link into the configurator section of their website, where they obviously need to know what van you have in order to configure it. The main website address is www.bottsmartvan.co.uk and you can access this without inputting any data. You can’t view any products though, and none of that changes the fact that the rails simply aren’t available to buy retail.

I noticed a similar approach by Sortimo when I was looking at their T-Boxx organisers. If I was going to buy a number of them, I wanted to be able to fit them on rails in home made cabinets, but couldn’t find the rails listed anywhere. You could buy cabinets with the rails already fitted, and you can get them as part of a full van fit out (like Bott do).

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1123
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2022, 07:45 PM »
To be fair, that url is a direct link into the configurator section of their website, where they obviously need to know what van you have in order to configure it. The main website address is www.bottsmartvan.co.uk and you can access this without inputting any data. You can’t view any products though, and none of that changes the fact that the rails simply aren’t available to buy retail.
Well, the fact Bott does not do retail AND at the same time prevents Festool to sell the rails is actually part of the problem. Either, on itself, is fine. Combined it desrves a F Off Bott! Linus Torvalds style.

And about that configurator site - that is precisely the point.
It would be OK if that configurator asked for a login and/or can be only lanuched from the main web. Not nice, but OK.
It would also be OK if it presenting you with TOS statiing sharing information abnout your business/life/etc. is mandatory to use the site. Illegal in EU these days, but at least respectful and so OK.
It would also be OK if it said something along "Hey, nice to see you, I am a configuratior, to be able to help you I need to know your needs. Please share the information about the van model you would like to see compatible options for!".

But no, they did not bother with decency and respect for the customer. They go ahead with a straight-in-the-face aggressive data mining grab. No, not OK. However way you slice it.
And this is precisely what you do when you do not respect the visitor because you KNOW her/his opinion does not affect your bottom line. Been there, seen that.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 276
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2022, 03:15 AM »
They go ahead with a straight-in-the-face aggressive data mining grab. No, not OK. However way you slice it.
Not sure I understand. On their website, when you click a link to say you want to configure your van, they ask you what van you want to configure. I don’t know how else a ‘configurator’ like this could work.

Although I’m not even sure that the make and model of a van counts as personal data under GDPR. Personal data is data that relates to an identified or identifiable person, and I don’t think the model of van alone is remotely granular enough to meet that definition. Were they collecting other personal data in addition to the van type, it might be an issue.



Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1788
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2022, 02:12 PM »
Also "currently unavailble" and overpriced.

It's utter bullcrap the rails aren't available outside the USA.

Also not appreciated US website are blocking European visitors...

It's how you get replaced by China. The Chinese ask less for their clones including shipping than the Americans charge for shipping an ounce of air across the Ocean.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 02:15 PM by Coen »

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1788
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2022, 02:28 PM »
This is a good discussion and rant.

As a dealer in the USA, I too struggle to understand why Tanos/Festool/Bott don't make the rails easier and more accessible in all regions when this is a keep feature of the Systainer3.  I've sold rails in the US and I've shipped orders across the globe too. 

I'm happy to quote shipping to your destination, get in touch.  And it may be that buying in a bulk with some friends help, I'v had a couple customers do that. 

I'd also recommend writing to Festool and Tanos to express your opinion.  Let the customer be heard.

What is the weight of a SYS rail? 4 for 2 pounds? So one is 1/2 pound, let's say 250 grams? So 80 are 20 kg? Shippingcosts of 80 rails to NL on systainer.store results in shipping quote of $500... I can ship such a weight the other way for €130...

Offline tsmi243

  • Posts: 285
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2022, 03:20 PM »
This is a good discussion and rant.

As a dealer in the USA, I too struggle to understand why Tanos/Festool/Bott don't make the rails easier and more accessible in all regions when this is a keep feature of the Systainer3.  I've sold rails in the US and I've shipped orders across the globe too. 

I'm happy to quote shipping to your destination, get in touch.  And it may be that buying in a bulk with some friends help, I'v had a couple customers do that. 

I'd also recommend writing to Festool and Tanos to express your opinion.  Let the customer be heard.

What is the weight of a SYS rail? 4 for 2 pounds? So one is 1/2 pound, let's say 250 grams? So 80 are 20 kg? Shippingcosts of 80 rails to NL on systainer.store results in shipping quote of $500... I can ship such a weight the other way for €130...

He said "get in touch".  What did you think that meant?

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1336
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2022, 05:31 PM »
This is a good discussion and rant.

As a dealer in the USA, I too struggle to understand why Tanos/Festool/Bott don't make the rails easier and more accessible in all regions when this is a keep feature of the Systainer3.  I've sold rails in the US and I've shipped orders across the globe too. 

I'm happy to quote shipping to your destination, get in touch.  And it may be that buying in a bulk with some friends help, I'v had a couple customers do that. 

I'd also recommend writing to Festool and Tanos to express your opinion.  Let the customer be heard.

What is the weight of a SYS rail? 4 for 2 pounds? So one is 1/2 pound, let's say 250 grams? So 80 are 20 kg? Shippingcosts of 80 rails to NL on systainer.store results in shipping quote of $500... I can ship such a weight the other way for €130...

@Coen  [wink]

“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1788
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2022, 05:38 AM »
Oh wow. More than Amazon says the product weight is  [tongue]

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1123
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2022, 06:03 AM »
Oh wow. More than Amazon says the product weight is  [tongue]
Careful, that is dual scale ... the 4-sets bag shows slightly above 1kg so 250g or so per a 2-rails set.
;)

BTW, our local etailer just listed the rails for CZK 480 ($20+VAT) per set. It seems they will be getting them directly from Bott.
The US Festool price seems reasonable in context.

https://www.naradionline.cz/vodici-kolejnice-festool-na-systainer-sys3-2ks.html
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1788
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2022, 02:42 PM »
That's twice the US price.

Amazon listed 2 pounds (as in the weight unit) for 4.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1788
Re: Sys3 rails in UK
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2022, 08:16 AM »
I mailed the local Festool... and yup; Festool agreed to not sell them here... because it would get in the way of Bott..

I might take another look at the Hettich 'more than fully' extendable drawer slides. That will result in the least amount of lost space, I think.