Author Topic: Longer open time adhesive ?  (Read 2242 times)

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Online Steve1

  • Posts: 214
Longer open time adhesive ?
« on: August 13, 2022, 07:33 PM »
I normally use Titebond III, but I have a dresser to glue up soon -- basically two side frames with three shelf pieces, total of 28 loose tenons, and the thought of trying to spread the adhesive, align the pieces and setting the clamps, in 10 minutes, is rather intimidating.

I sometimes use PL Premium on wood, but in this case, I expect the material expansion would be a problem for this project.

Lee Valley's Cabinetmaker's glue specifies 15-20 minute open time, but its a PVA glue so I wonder if its really any different than the Titebond.

Maybe I should be using epoxy ?

What do you guys use when you need a little more working time ?

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Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3826
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2022, 07:45 PM »
Epoxy, a little messy for tenons, will work.

I'd use Old Brown Glue, which, however needs to be kept warm during use, and requires at least 12 hours (more for me) to cure.

Alternative: use PVA and a helper.

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 500
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2022, 07:48 PM »
I use mostly Titebond III, but when I need either the high strength of longer open time, I use West System G/Flex epoxy and I have had excellent results with it.

Offline Mortiser

  • Posts: 145
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2022, 09:35 PM »
I've used TiteBond Extend Wood Glue ( http://www.titebond.com/product/glues/d7c6f86b-93cc-4400-99ed-79f8a75a2e95 ) for complex glue-ups with good results. Typically Woodcraft has it in stock and I believe Amazon has it.

Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 516
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2022, 09:45 PM »
Old brown glue. Has a long open time and is makes repairs easier.

I stay away from epoxy unless I really need it.

Online Steve1

  • Posts: 214
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2022, 09:49 PM »
For the guys who use epoxy, what do you do with squeeze-out ?
Do you clean it off right away with mineral spirits or acetone, or do you wait an hour or two to let it stiffen up and then scrape it off ?

Pre-finishing (or at least pre-staining) is very possible on this portion of the build.   So I could apply GF dye-stain first to try to avoid the epoxy squeeze-out effecting how the dye stain is absorbed into the wood.    I'm not sure if the dye-stain would effect adhesion, but I would mask off the glue areas as best I could, before staining.

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2022, 10:00 PM »
In the very few times i used it (for its gap filling feature), I taped off the joint nearby spots.

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3826
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2022, 10:00 PM »
Old brown glue. Has a long open time and is makes repairs easier.

I stay away from epoxy unless I really need it.

Clean-up is easy, too. Mostly water.

Offline VirTERM

  • Posts: 131
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2022, 10:38 PM »
I normally use Titebond III, but I have a dresser to glue up soon -- basically two side frames with three shelf pieces, total of 28 loose tenons, and the thought of trying to spread the adhesive, align the pieces and setting the clamps, in 10 minutes, is rather intimidating.

I sometimes use PL Premium on wood, but in this case, I expect the material expansion would be a problem for this project.

Lee Valley's Cabinetmaker's glue specifies 15-20 minute open time, but its a PVA glue so I wonder if its really any different than the Titebond.

Maybe I should be using epoxy ?

What do you guys use when you need a little more working time ?
From my experience, LeeValley’s Cabinet Maker glue gives you extra 5-7 minutes. I actually prefer it over Tidebond III except for outside furniture or cutting boards.

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 295
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2022, 11:11 PM »
This might be the same as "old brown glue," but... hide glue. For interior projects only.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2022, 11:46 PM »
For any construction project involving lengthy glueing issues I'll break down the task list into short sustainable tasks. So if there are 28 Dominos that need to be glued in, do they all need to be glued in at the same time or can it be a staged glue-up that can be completed in 2, 3 or 4 stages?

Sure it takes more time but the frustration level is severely diminished and the possibility of a screw-up is practically eliminated.

So, if I had 28 tenons to glue, I'd take a look at only gluing 14 or FEWER of them at the same time. Just break it down into practical fabrication steps that can be handled by a single person over a short duration of time.

If this is a production problem, then that's another issue...wherein you just need to pony-up and spend the $$$ that are required to attain the production efficiency that you desire.

Offline Vtshopdog

  • Posts: 158
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2022, 12:00 AM »
Plus one for Cheese’s suggestion.

For many of my loudspeaker cabinet builds I dry fit most of the panels with Dominos to aid alignment and glue whatever joint(s) makes sense in sequence.  They can be like jigsaw puzzles with boxes inside boxes, braces and baffles etc.
Lot of put it together and take it apart, slows things down quite a bit but lowers stress.

Have also had good luck with TB extended open.

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 462
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2022, 05:24 AM »
For projects that need more assembly time I like to use Cascamite. There was a period where the producer (Polyvine) had severe trouble with the quality of this product, but I haven't had any trouble anymore with it for a few years now. It is dependable, easy to mix, easy to apply, has a long open time, and has a very long shelf time if not mixed yet.

See https://polyvine.com/index.php/en/products/adhesives/cascamite

Online Steve1

  • Posts: 214
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2022, 07:34 AM »
So if there are 28 Dominos that need to be glued in, do they all need to be glued in at the same time or can it be a staged glue-up that can be completed in 2, 3 or 4 stages?

Thank you for the response.

I thought of that.
It's a definite possibility.   I could pre-glue all the tenons into the side pieces. Cuts the task basically in half.   I have a bit of play in the slots laterally (long direction).  My concern is that the loose tenons don't end up exactly in the correct position and then I can't align the "shelf" properly (in the long direction).  That would not be the end of the world - do a trial fit and if there is a problem then I would have to figure out which loose tenon was hindering final alignment and shave the end of that tenon a bit.  Or, just shave the end of all four tenons on that piece.

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3891
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2022, 07:53 AM »
Have you done a dry fit to practice the sequence?
Birdhunter

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1892
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2022, 09:29 AM »
I have used several different glues/methods. I just depends on the actual project. Old Brown Glue (Hide glue) is rather loose/runny, that is not ideal in some situations. It does cleanup very well and is reversable with water or steam, but that takes it out of play for outdoor applications.

Epoxy is very versatile, sticks to darn near anything. It's totally waterproof, as long as the things you are gluing can say the same. It is far more of a pain to cleanup though and doesn't look so good on exposed joints like inlays, dovetails, box-joints, etc.

Cascamite is a good alternative too. I have only used it once as a test for some long miterfolding glueups. It worked as I had hoped. The only drawback is that it is a powder that you have to mix for each use, so it's not something you can leave sitting on your bench for everyday things. That's not really any different from epoxy though, only mixed when needed for the bigger jobs.
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Offline Packard

  • Posts: 1549
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2022, 10:03 AM »
I would add reference to epoxy, to use the slowest cure that seems reasonable when gluing porous items.

A slow cure time allows the Epoxy to flow into the pores and provides a stronger joint. 

This would not apply when gluing non-porous items such as glass or metal or ceramic. But for wood, plywood, mdf, etc., it can improve the joint strength.

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 1549
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2022, 10:08 AM »
An old girlfriend was angry with me when she knew I was at home, but did not answer the phone.

I patiently explained that I was in the midst of a glue-up.  She said, “So stop, and answer the darn phone”.

Glue-ups are not sufficient reason to fail to answer the phone.  And mercy to the woodworker who has a glue up in process when the doorbell rings. [eek]

Online Steve1

  • Posts: 214
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2022, 10:12 AM »
Have you done a dry fit to practice the sequence?

Yes, I have had it together several times.
First time was pretty slow getting all the tenons into the slots.   But I am getting better/faster at it by this point.
On the other hand, I have noticed I will need to add the task of adding a couple of strap clamps to the bonding operation to pull it exactly square.

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3826
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2022, 10:12 AM »
Let me slightly revise my recommendation in your case because you may find OBG less convenient to use, which requires a warm source (I use a crockpot for a large job; coffee warmer otherwise).

http://www.titebond.com/product/glues/9e9995b4-08eb-4fc6-8254-c47daa20f8ed

No matter what glue is used, a shop helper will greatly reduce the stress of a complex glue-up (just give her or him a minute of training in how to apply glue and how to hold clamps).

Here, Tage Frid got a job done with his helper (his grandson):



I used Lee Valley glue in this angled joinery job because I had a helper:



It would have been a challenge to center the clamping force with such long, heavy clamps single-handedly, not to mention adjusting the clamps to correct out-of-squareness, if any.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2022, 10:28 AM by ChuckS »

Offline Bob D.

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Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2022, 10:34 AM »
Titebond makes a hide glue.

Application Guidelines
Application Temperature: Above 50°F (10°C)
Open Assembly Time: 10 minutes (70°F./50% RH)
Total Assembly Time: 20-30 minutes (70°F./50%RH)
Minimum Required Spread : Approximately 6 mils or 250 square feet per gallon
Required Clamping Pressure: Enough to bring joints tightly together (generally, 100-150 psi for softwoods, 125-175 psi for medium woods and 175-250 psi for hardwoods)
Method of Application: Can be applied by roller or dip spreader, pressurized oil cans, plastic applicators, brush or stick.
Cleanup: Damp cloth while glue is wet. Scrape off and sand dried excess.
-----
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Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3826
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2022, 10:44 AM »
Snip.
It's a definite possibility.   I could pre-glue all the tenons into the side pieces. Cuts the task basically in half.   I have a bit of play in the slots laterally (long direction).  My concern is that the loose tenons don't end up exactly in the correct position and then I can't align the "shelf" properly (in the long direction).  That would not be the end of the world - do a trial fit and if there is a problem then I would have to figure out which loose tenon was hindering final alignment and shave the end of that tenon a bit.  Or, just shave the end of all four tenons on that piece.

Assuming you used tight and wide (middle) width settings in cutting your mortises, you can glue tenons in all the tight mortises first, and those tenons won't move. If both mating mortises are cut in the wide setting (not common for me), my usual preference is place the tenon in the center of the mortise (eyeball). But in most of my builds, I use the tight to loose rather than the loose to loose combination.

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 1549
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2022, 10:45 AM »
I use Titebond’s pre-mixed hide glue for my cane panel installations.  Reversibility is the key reason to use hide glue for this application.

But the viscosity and flow of the hide glue makes it a pleasure to work with.  I can lay an entirely uniform line of hide glue.  I would not be able to do the same with PVA glue from Titebond. 

I have no personal experience regarding the strength of the bond.  I don’t think the door panels or seat panels need huge amounts of strength.  So far, all the bonds have held.

I get the glue from Rockler.

I install the cane panels after soaking them in water for 20 minutes.  I suspect that the moisture content lengthens the open time, but I have no data to prove that.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2022, 10:47 AM by Packard »

Offline deepcreek

  • Posts: 977
    • TimberFire Studio
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2022, 03:15 PM »
Just used some for the first time yesterday.

I normally use Titebond 3 but decided to give their hide glue a try on this project.

Highly recommend.

Joe Adams
TimberFire Studio
Houston, Texas

http://www.facebook.com/timberfire

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 1549
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2022, 03:30 PM »
Here is an article comparing hide glue with Titebond.  The author claims that the holding strength of both are about equivalent.

But he then goes on to say that PVA adhesives bond by penetrating the grain in the wood.  Hide glue bonds at the molecular level. 

That meant nothing to me until he explained that by bonding at the molecular level, hide glue will adhere to glass and metal rather tenaciously.

He makes other observations, including the reversibility advantage of hide glue and the waterproof capability of Titebond.  In any case, a short article and I found it interesting.

https://esomogyi.com/titebond-vs-hide-glue/

Online Steve1

  • Posts: 214
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2022, 08:30 AM »
UPDATE

I decided to pre-glue the tenons into the 3 "shelves" and give it a shot with the Titebond.   I did have to shave the ends of a few tenons after pre-gluing them, but that was minimal and very quick.

It was a real scramble, but I managed to get everything glued, positioned and clamped.   I even put glue on both the tenon and the mortise surfaces.  I had pre-stained panels and all of the interior.  It came out fine.  If you are wondering what the extra vertical rail is on the inside, its for drawer slide screws to land on.    Still need to make six drawers, a top, and a back.   

Next bottle of glue, I will probably try that Lee Valley Cabinet Maker's Glue.  An extra 5 to 7 minutes would have been very much appreciated.

Thanks to all for their input.

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 1549
Re: Longer open time adhesive ?
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2022, 09:36 AM »

Lee Valley's Cabinetmaker's glue specifies 15-20 minute open time, but its a PVA glue so I wonder if its really any different than the Titebond.

When I had my picture framing shop we first used “white glue” (Elmer’s).  But probably in the early 1980s Framica came out with the first PVA glue for framers called “Corner Weld”. 

It was dramatically stronger than white glue and designed to glue end grain to end grain. 

For the longest time, I thought Corner Weld was stronger than other PVA glues for end grain applications.  But about a year ago I retested it and compared it with Titebond III. 

The strength was nearly identical for both.  Any differences could easily be blamed on imprecise execution on my part.

But one characteristic was significantly different.  When I glued up the Titebond pieces the areas to be bonded remained slick and wet for all the time it took to clamp the pieces.

But simply rubbing the areas to be bonded with the Corner Weld caused them to bond and grab within seconds of application. It is the nature of picture frame joinery that the joints only take seconds to join (using an underpinned), so this makes sense.

We could easily handle and finish a frame 10 minutes after glue-up (though my shop through put did not allow for that).

So I have come to believe that there can be significant differences in behavior for PVA glues.  Your own testing is the best way to discover those differences.

I still use Corner Weld for really simple glue-ups.  It is not as runny as Tite Bond III and I prefer that flow characteristic.