Author Topic: Tips for working with aluminum (Read 57022 times)

Richard/RMW · « **on:** May 21, 2022, 09:07 AM »

There seems to be enough interest to perhaps fuel a running thread dedicated to this topic?

I've done a fair amount of aluminum work with woodworking tools, but would appreciate feedback on the finer points. Specifically, cutting precise slots using a router.

An upcoming project will require several 8mm slots in 3/8" bar stock and I need them precise, straight and tight width tolerance. I have a Shaper Origin & O flute bits so that seems the best route.

Any suggestions on DOC, spindle speed, etc? Also aluminum series, I tend to default to 6061 but it's just habit. @Cheese @rst

Thanks.

RMW

hdv · « **Reply #1 on:** May 21, 2022, 10:26 AM »

Yeah, I agree about the dedicated thread.

I for one would be very much interested to learn more about this topic from fellow FOGers. I do some metalworking now and then in the shop when it is needed for a project, but most of it is based on educated guesses and information I gleaned in places like this. A little education definitely would not hurt. Not when it comes to doing things right and especially not when it comes to doing things safe.

Cheese · « **Reply #2 on:** May 21, 2022, 10:37 AM »

Here are a couple of previous threads dealing with routing aluminum.

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/routingmilling-8020-for-festool-clamps-using-an-mfs-a-1010/30/

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/routingmilling-aluminum-angle-for-the-mfs-using-an-mfs-a-1010/msg575536/#msg575536

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/other-tools-accessories/musclechuck-on-festool-of1010/msg577899/#msg577899

When I first started to use a router on aluminum I just chucked up a 4-flute HSS end mill because that's what I had and it had worked well for milling steel. I soon found out that the finished slots were oversize and the finish quality was not good. So after I wore that bit out I found a 2-flute HSS end mill in my collection and used that for a while. The slots were now closer to being the correct size and the machined surface was of better quality. I thought about it and I felt that maybe the 4-flute tool didn't have enough room between the flutes to remove & discharge the aluminum chips. I also noticed several small pieces of aluminum "welded" to the end mill.

That observation made me remember my earlier bandsaw fiasco. My band saw is a variable speed so that it can cut metals or wood and I had a special blade made from tool steel, Nicholson Bi-Metalloy III to cut stainless steel with. One day I needed to cut some 1/2" aluminum plate and I was too lazy to change the Nicholson blade thinking it's only a short length of aluminum. Well the 1st inch went fine, then I had to increase the feed pressure considerably for the 2nd inch and after that the blade refused to cut any further. Upon close inspection, the gullets between the teeth were filled with aluminum and there were sections of the blade where the teeth were gone, completely ripped off from the band.

Here's a shot of the 2-flute HSS end mill, you can see the amount of damage on the end from just routing aluminum slots. This is the reason I moved to 0-flute solid carbide bits for aluminum work, it'd also be appropriate for brass & copper. I've not yet tried the ZrN (zirconium nitride) coated bits but they should prevent aluminum welding and provide a harder surface.

Bob D. · « **Reply #3 on:** May 21, 2022, 11:44 AM »

Pat Warner covered this with regard to making jigs and such in
one of his books. I'll will look for it next time in the shop and let
you know the title. I have no doubt copies are still available.

hdv · « **Reply #4 on:** May 21, 2022, 12:10 PM »

Thanks @Cheese. I remember those first two threads quite well. I even bookmarked them at the time. I learned a lot from that.

@Bob D. Might that be his title "Fast, Easy & Accurate Router Jigs"? If so, I will order a copy.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #5 on:** May 21, 2022, 12:21 PM »

Quote from: Bob D. on May 21, 2022, 11:44 AM

Pat Warner covered this with regard to making jigs and such in
one of his books. I'll will look for it next time in the shop and let
you know the title. I have no doubt copies are still available.

Thank @bobd I'd forgotten about Pat as a resource. Prior to his passing we'd chatted a bit, I was aiming to do one of his in-person courses but never had an opportunity to get out there. His website also had a ton of info but looks like his heirs took it down. I should still have some of his old pdfs somewhere. I may even has his book.

He was a blunt guy, really enjoyed interacting with him. Pat's e-commerce system was "OK, I'll send it to you mail me a check...".

His router work with AL was amazing, I have a couple of his straight edges.

RMW

rvieceli · « **Reply #6 on:** May 21, 2022, 04:16 PM »

@Richard/RMW I treasure my stuff I got from Pat and my interactions with him. On forums he came across as a curmudgeon but he loved to help people and was a wonderful innovator. Towards the end he was self publishing ebooks of tips and techniques.

He had a piece of 1/4 inch stainless rod with a point milled dead center on one end that he used in some drill press jigs and things. I asked him about it and he said “I’ve got an extra, I’ll send it to you send me a check for the postage.”

Ron

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #7 on:** May 21, 2022, 10:34 PM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 21, 2022, 09:07 AM

There seems to be enough interest to perhaps fuel a running thread dedicated to this topic?

I've done a fair amount of aluminum work with woodworking tools, but would appreciate feedback on the finer points. Specifically, cutting precise slots using a router.

An upcoming project will require several 8mm slots in 3/8" bar stock and I need them precise, straight and tight width tolerance. I have a Shaper Origin & O flute bits so that seems the best route.

Any suggestions on DOC, spindle speed, etc? Also aluminum series, I tend to default to 6061 but it's just habit. @Cheese @rst

Thanks.

RMW

That bit sounds right but I've only been cutting thin copper by trial and error so can't advise on speed/feed.

I can say I hope the slots you want to mill are not wider than the opening of the Shaper's base. That soft plastic is not good at gliding over metal shards. If you use the Workstation maybe you can drop the aluminum stock below the surface and then do something creative to set Z. Swarf might still be a problem...

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #8 on:** May 22, 2022, 12:28 AM »

Quote from: rvieceli on May 21, 2022, 04:16 PM

@Richard/RMW I treasure my stuff I got from Pat and my interactions with him. On forums he came across as a curmudgeon but he loved to help people and was a wonderful innovator. Towards the end he was self publishing ebooks of tips and techniques.

He had a piece of 1/4 inch stainless rod with a point milled dead center on one end that he used in some drill press jigs and things. I asked him about it and he said “I’ve got an extra, I’ll send it to you send me a check for the postage.”

Ron

@rvieceli Ron I searched my files earlier today and found some email from 2012-15 that brought a smile. He was indeed persnickity, and delightful as well. He offered training in his garage in Escondido, which I'd hoped to do, and introduced me to the existence of metrology.

I did find some of the plans I'd purchased from him, I wish I could share them freely as they're a delight. He was also an accomplished photographer, an example of his skills:

I hope his tools and jigs went to a good home.

RMW

[edit] And a snippet of one conversation

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #9 on:** May 22, 2022, 11:51 AM »

Found a great thread on routing AL on the SO forum, lots of info that would apply to routing with the MFS also.

@Cheese in some of your posts you recommend IPA as lube. I just loaded up a spray bottle with 91%, do you think that's too strong and I should use 70% instead?

Thanks.

RMW

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #10 on:** May 22, 2022, 12:02 PM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 22, 2022, 11:51 AM

Found a great thread on routing AL on the SO forum, lots of info that would apply to routing with the MFS also.

@Cheese in some of your posts you recommend IPA as lube. I just loaded up a spray bottle with 91%, do you think that's too strong and I should use 70% instead?

Thanks.

RMW

Be careful not to get alcohol on machined acrylic pieces. It will cause unseen stress cracks to open.

Cheese · « **Reply #11 on:** May 22, 2022, 01:56 PM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 22, 2022, 11:51 AM

@Cheese in some of your posts you recommend IPA as lube. I just loaded up a spray bottle with 91%, do you think that's too strong and I should use 70% instead?

I can't remember what strength I used Richard but you should be fine. Remember it's flammable so no sparks.

It also burns with a blue flame so it's tough to see, having said all that, I've not had a single issue in 4-5 years of using the stuff and it evaporates fast so no oily mess. I replaced the hot halogen light that's close to the quill with a LED light so that also eliminates a possible issue.

Cheese · « **Reply #12 on:** May 23, 2022, 10:59 PM »

Well this is a timely email from Travers Tool, they're a viable alternative to MSC for metal tooling/machining products. Here are some tips on machining aluminum and other non-ferrous materials including some plastics.

https://solutions.travers.com/metalworking-machining/milling/the-pros-cons-of-high-and-low-helix-angles

Recently, I purchased a complete set of parabolic drill bits that have a higher helix angle than normal and my intention is to use them exclusively on aluminum and plastic substrates...let's see how that works.

The cobalt bits will be reserved for steel and stainless.

As I noted earlier, any aluminum modified coatings (anything that contains Al) are NOT recommended when machining aluminum because they do not prevent the aluminum chips from adhering/welding to the tool.

https://solutions.travers.com/metalworking-machining/holemaking/drill-coating-selection-chart

Cheese · « **Reply #13 on:** May 24, 2022, 11:42 AM »

Here's another email from Travers Tool on machining aluminum. It covers the basics and deals mostly with machining being done on a mill or lathe using insert tooling. There is a short section on CNC use.

The biggest takeaway for me was the suggestion to use solid carbide cutters that are polished or ZrN coated. ToolsToday & Amana offer this type of tooling.

https://www.toolstoday.com/v-12759-46577.html

https://f.hubspotusercontent00.net/hubfs/5257956/Content%20Guides%20And%20Downloadable%20PDFs/Aluminum_Machining_Guide.pdf?__hstc=140417324.a8c63363ca2961ef7165a1909847d0f2.1653158759239.1653398154712.1653404742539.4&__hssc=140417324.4.1653404742539&__hsfp=1202131086&hsCtaTracking=65f888a2-5b48-4464-99b6-eaa3454d60d1%7C57f7fc69-2ae0-4cf2-ab4d-e1fda9329917

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #14 on:** May 25, 2022, 11:11 AM »

@Cheese thanks for posting those links, I took a quick look and will take some time over the weekend to study. There are 2 chunks of .375" MIC-6 arriving today, so I hope to do some test cuts this weekend.

From my limited experience with true 3-axis CNC machining, I gleaned that getting acceptable results cutting AL is a combination of speeds & feeds leading to an acceptable chip size and avoiding galling, along with using lubricant. One of the challenges is feeding fast enough with a handheld tool, which is largely a question of rigidity when compared to a typical CNC Mill.

I have a roughing mill I may try in conjunction with boring starting holes for the 8mm slots I need. Cut everything with an offset and then switch to an O-Flute bit for final pass. I am hoping to hit a tolerance if a few thou in the slots. I also need an 18" long straight reference edge on this part.

@Bob D. reminded me of Pat Warner which led me back to our conversation on Metrology and his emphasis on rock-solid jigs, securing materials and rigidly controlling interaction with the bit. Back in ~2015 I'd purchased his eBook on Jigs & Fixtures, which included this illustration of his jig for achieving straight edges:

This takes me to a chicken/egg quandary I frequently have, the need to make the thing to use to make the thing...

I also recognized the rabbit hole I'm heading down relative the Pat's comments on the two types of WW I posted earlier. Upon reflection, I see now that a lot of the frustrations I've experienced with cutting parts is due to not properly securing/indexing stock. Some of this is due to trying to use the MFT/TS for some odd cuts that are tough to properly secure the materials, partly due to not having a robust setup for holding smaller stock whil cutting. This opens the can of worms debate on using the MFT/TS to cut things that a table saw is better suited for, but now I'm drifting away from the original topic of cutting AL.

In any case, thanks for the input and I'll report back on progress and what I learn.

RMW

Cheese · « **Reply #15 on:** May 25, 2022, 11:01 PM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 25, 2022, 11:11 AM

@Cheese thanks for posting those links, I took a quick look and will take some time over the weekend to study.
1. There are 2 chunks of .375" MIC-6 arriving today, so I hope to do some test cuts this weekend.

2. From my limited experience with true 3-axis CNC machining, I gleaned that getting acceptable results cutting AL is a combination of speeds & feeds leading to an acceptable chip size and avoiding galling, along with using lubricant. One of the challenges is feeding fast enough with a handheld tool, which is largely a question of rigidity when compared to a typical CNC Mill.

3. I have a roughing mill I may try in conjunction with boring starting holes for the 8mm slots I need. Cut everything with an offset and then switch to an O-Flute bit for final pass. I am hoping to hit a tolerance if a few thou in the slots. I also need an 18" long straight reference edge on this part.

3. This takes me to a chicken/egg quandary I frequently have, the need to make the thing to use to make the thing...

4. I also recognized the rabbit hole I'm heading down relative the Pat's comments on the two types of WW I posted earlier. Upon reflection, I see now that a lot of the frustrations I've experienced with cutting parts is due to not properly securing/indexing stock. Some of this is due to trying to use the MFT/TS for some odd cuts that are tough to properly secure the materials, partly due to not having a robust setup for holding smaller stock whil cutting. This opens the can of worms debate on using the MFT/TS to cut things that a table saw is better suited for, but now I'm drifting away from the original topic of cutting AL.

1. Nice stuff Richard...locally I'm able to purchase some random pieces as drop which means a 50% drop in price. That's nice stuff, you will be spoiled, a flatness of ±.005" if I remember correctly.

2. Feeding fast is important but feeding at a consistent rate is probably more important, especially when it comes to solid carbide tooling. Solid carbide is extremely stiff, that's the reason it's commonly used for boring bars on lathes, but any sudden movement also means it can crack & break. Strong...stiff...but it fractures.

3. Ya, I'm modifying a Festool 50 mm hose to work on a Kapex and it will take me more time to produce the fixture/jig I need to modify the hose end than to actually modify the Festool hose end. It's all part of the game

and then they wonder why engineering always takes "too long."

4. That's one of the reasons I never went down the MFT rabbit hole, then again I do have the luxury of owning a table saw which you do not have the space for. I don't use the table saw often but it does scratch an itch.

Cheese · « **Reply #16 on:** May 25, 2022, 11:17 PM »

Goodness...these people at Travers Tool are working overtime.

Here's the latest guide I just received tonight on polishing aluminum.

https://solutions.travers.com/metalworking-machining/finishing/how-to-polish-aluminum

Packard · « **Reply #17 on:** May 26, 2022, 09:17 AM »

When I first started working in 1970, the company I worked for sold aluminum sheets and extrusions. Our customers used animal fat to lubricate the steel saw blades (no carbide back then).

I used to train the installers and I traveled with my German Shepherd. He was exceptionally interested in the lubricant.

Nowadays they have synthetics that work much better. They are easy to use. You just rub it on the cutting tool. And the cuts are much cleaner.

The odds are that it will not interest your dog, but it is best to keep it out of his reach. They may still be using some animal fat in the concoction.

This is available from Grainger. I did not check Amazon.com.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #18 on:** May 26, 2022, 10:04 AM »

I did grab a cutting wax lube off Amazon last week, definitely will give that a try.

The long weekend begins for me today and we have no plans/company coming. Weather is even cooperating for once. Should be lots of fun

RMW

rvieceli · « **Reply #19 on:** May 26, 2022, 03:24 PM »

@Richard/RMW Whilw I'm all for trying new stuff and being self sufficient, might be a time to visit a pro. After trying for a few years to get my son to buy a Bridgeport I've about goven up

The is still a working machine shop in my vicinity with real machinists, (down from about 4 shops). If I'm nice and polite and mention that I'm not in a rush, they will do stuff for me

It is rarely more than an hour to an hour and a half of machine time since they charge from set up to clean up.

Might not cost that much to get what you want.

there are also some cnc laser folks online that will do as little as a one-off if you send them a dxf file . Even some that will work with jpg and pdf

Ron

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #20 on:** May 26, 2022, 05:16 PM »

Quote from: rvieceli on May 26, 2022, 03:24 PM

@Richard/RMW Whilw I'm all for trying new stuff and being self sufficient, might be a time to visit a pro. After trying for a few years to get my son to buy a Bridgeport I've about goven up

The is still a working machine shop in my vicinity with real machinists, (down from about 4 shops). If I'm nice and polite and mention that I'm not in a rush, they will do stuff for me

It is rarely more than an hour to an hour and a half of machine time since they charge from set up to clean up.

Might not cost that much to get what you want.

there are also some cnc laser folks online that will do as little as a one-off if you send them a dxf file . Even some that will work with jpg and pdf

Ron

I may go that route, but the MIC-6 was only $40 on eBay so I figured I'd give it a try. It's an addiction thing...

I was originally going to use sendcutsend but I tested them with some simple brackets and the laser cut finish was not good enough. They are an awesome company and hugely patient coaching me thru the learning curve to get them files they could use but laser just won't work for this project. Also, their material is nowhere close to flat enough to use as a fence, again not a complaint just the limitation of their offerings. This is what led me to MIC-6 for the flatness.

I did end up with some very nice adjustable stops from the experiment...

Thanks.

RMW

rvieceli · « **Reply #21 on:** May 26, 2022, 05:22 PM »

What are you going to make?

Ron

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #22 on:** May 26, 2022, 05:29 PM »

V2.0 of the fence in the photo, with an indexed material stop. Like I said, it's an addiction.

RMW

rvieceli · « **Reply #23 on:** May 26, 2022, 05:52 PM »

I made a table for my drill press out of mic6. It’s nice to work with an prices have really jumped. I had a strip of mic6 I wanted to use as a fence. It had two rough saw cuts on the long edges. I had them machine the edges flat and parallel to each other within a thousandth and I think it was about 80 bucks.

Ron

Packard · « **Reply #24 on:** May 26, 2022, 06:37 PM »

The cutting speed of a router is almost certainly too fast for aluminum. A single cutter will be effectively slower that a double, but probably still too fast. There are cutting speed charts on the Internet. Look them up.

Consider phenolic sheets. Dimensionally stable and some grades are very strong. The paper laminate phenolic is the cheapest, and may be satisfactory. Much stronger grades made with linen are available. You can machine these with a router much like a very thick sheet of Formica.

The company I used to work for made short run stamping tools using phenolic sheets as the die base and mounting the punches in the phenolic. These tools typically were used for fewer than 5,000 piece runs, but occasionally they could stretch a little beyond that.

It is dimensionally unaffected by heat and cold. Do some Internet research to see if it makes sense.

Bob D. · « **Reply #25 on:** May 26, 2022, 07:35 PM »

send-cut-send

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #26 on:** May 27, 2022, 07:16 AM »

Quote from: Packard on May 26, 2022, 06:37 PM

The cutting speed of a router is almost certainly too fast for aluminum. A single cutter will be effectively slower that a double, but probably still too fast. There are cutting speed charts on the Internet. Look them up.

Consider phenolic sheets. Dimensionally stable and some grades are very strong. The paper laminate phenolic is the cheapest, and may be satisfactory. Much stronger grades made with linen are available. You can machine these with a router much like a very thick sheet of Formica.

The company I used to work for made short run stamping tools using phenolic sheets as the die base and mounting the punches in the phenolic. These tools typically were used for fewer than 5,000 piece runs, but occasionally they could stretch a little beyond that.

It is dimensionally unaffected by heat and cold. Do some Internet research to see if it makes sense.

I'd love to use phenolic, but my own experience is you cannot trust it to be truly flat. Because of the use flatness is the most critical aspect. I used 3 knobs in V1.0 to pull it against the extrusion and still had to capture the ends of the Alcubond panel to ensure flatness along the entire length.

Thanks to all for the input.

RMW

Packard · « **Reply #27 on:** May 27, 2022, 08:23 AM »

Here is an aluminum cutting speed chart. http://www.duramill.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/2015-Speed-and-Feed-Guide.pdf

In any case you can throw the chart out the window if you use phenolic sheet instead.

https://www.piedmontplastics.com/blog/phenolic-sheet-explained

https://www.americanmicroinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/le-phenolic-datasheet.pdf

Cheese · « **Reply #28 on:** May 27, 2022, 10:00 AM »

Quote from: Packard on May 27, 2022, 08:23 AM

Here is an aluminum cutting speed chart. http://www.duramill.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/2015-Speed-and-Feed-Guide.pdf

In any case you can throw the chart out the window if you use phenolic sheet instead.

https://www.piedmontplastics.com/blog/phenolic-sheet-explained

https://www.americanmicroinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/le-phenolic-datasheet.pdf

To use that chart you have to change the SFM to RPM, here's the formula.

RPM = (3.82 x SFM)/Diameter of cutter

So, if you want to maintain a rate of 800 SFM, a 1/4" dia cutter should be turning at 12,224 RPM...or there abouts.

Also those speeds look a bit fast, especially for uncoated tooling, I've always used the range of 500 SFM to 1500 SFM. Here's the chart I use.

Interestingly enough, Festool recommends using their routers for aluminum work. Here's an excerpt from the 1010, the 1400 & the 2200 owners manual.

Now this item surprised me initially, but after thinking about it, it does make sense for edging or radiusing aluminum. This is an excerpt from the MFK 700 owners manual.

Cheese · « **Reply #29 on:** May 27, 2022, 11:38 AM »

Here's a video of a guy using a plain Jane Dewalt router to machine aluminum. The fixture he made to hold the aluminum panel is particularly well done.

https://youtu.be/-gboj2XhuW0?t=8

Packard · « **Reply #30 on:** May 27, 2022, 12:02 PM »

I've seen two axis tables used with drill presses as an ersatz milling machine.

The bearings on drill presses are designed for vertical movement; not horizontal movement, so I don't know what this does to the drill press. For light work, it is probably OK. Just $145.00.

https://www.vevor.com/rotary-table-c_10128/compound-milling-machine-work-table-2-axis-cross-slide-bench-drill-vise-fixture-p_010230619047?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuPih54SA-AIVF6_ICh1H_AqvEAkYCSABEgKY6PD_BwE

Northern Tool sells a bench top milling machine for $1,000.00. I've bought some of their own branded equipment and they have always been of good to excellent quality.

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200660255_200660255

Cheese · « **Reply #31 on:** May 27, 2022, 12:42 PM »

Quote from: Packard on May 27, 2022, 12:02 PM

I've seen two axis tables used with drill presses as an ersatz milling machine.

The bearings on drill presses are designed for vertical movement; not horizontal movement, so I don't know what this does to the drill press. For light work, it is probably OK. Just $145.00.

The real issue with a drill press is tool slippage in the chuck. You need collets or diamond coated chuck jaws to prevent tool slippage and I'm not completely sure that diamond coated chuck jaws will work every time.

Packard · « **Reply #32 on:** May 27, 2022, 12:53 PM »

For milling aluminum? I've seen people use drill presses as milling machines in the past. Perhaps for tool steel, special chucks would be needed. But not for light gage aluminum.

This guy upgraded the bearings, but is using the stock chuck.

festal · « **Reply #33 on:** May 28, 2022, 08:07 AM »

If you have a Nova Voyager, it can be converted to Nova Vulcan (discountinued milling drill press) One guy on youtube did the conversion and there are 3 part videos of the process with part lists

Cheese · « **Reply #34 on:** May 29, 2022, 09:41 AM »

Quote from: festal on May 28, 2022, 08:07 AM

If you have a Nova Voyager, it can be converted to Nova Vulcan (discountinued milling drill press) One guy on youtube did the conversion and there are 3 part videos of the process with part lists

Unfortunately, I believe Nova is no longer selling the additional parts needed to convert it to a collet chuck system.

Bob D. · « **Reply #35 on:** May 29, 2022, 01:00 PM »

Quote from: festal on May 28, 2022, 08:07 AM

If you have a Nova Voyager, it can be converted to Nova Vulcan (discountinued milling drill press) One guy on youtube did the conversion and there are 3 part videos of the process with part lists

That ship has sailed. I watched those videos. The Vulcan is no longer sold by Nova and no parts available to convert/backfit a Voyager they told me in an email last year. I was looking for a Vulcan but had to settle for the Voyager, and I think I was lucky to get that the way things have been the past two years.

festal · « **Reply #36 on:** May 29, 2022, 01:02 PM »

Quote from: Bob D. on May 29, 2022, 01:00 PM

Quote from: festal on May 28, 2022, 08:07 AM
If you have a Nova Voyager, it can be converted to Nova Vulcan (discountinued milling drill press) One guy on youtube did the conversion and there are 3 part videos of the process with part lists

That ship has sailed. I watched those videos. The Vulcan is no longer sold by Nova and no parts available to convert/backfit a Voyager they told me in an email last year. I was looking for a Vulcan but had to settle for the Voyager, and I think I was lucky to get that the way things have been the past two years.

figures lol.

Cheese · « **Reply #37 on:** May 30, 2022, 10:57 AM »

Here's another information guide from Travers with speeds & feeds for aluminum milling, profiling & slotting. Again, using solid carbide tooling with 37° to 45° helixes and ZrN coatings.

https://f.hubspotusercontent00.net/hubfs/5257956/Aluminum_Milling_Speeds.pdf?__hstc=140417324.a8c63363ca2961ef7165a1909847d0f2.1653158759239.1653535015575.1653744002136.7&__hssc=140417324.6.1653744002136&__hsfp=1202131086&hsCtaTracking=648806bc-933c-4bee-895d-fd4e3b7b23ff%7C0a0c4518-503c-42b7-9a40-f18e33ec61b3

Here's a Hole Making Guide from Travers. The key points for most will be drill point angles, drill bit materials & drill bit finishes/coatings.

https://f.hubspotusercontent00.net/hubfs/5257956/Content%20Guides%20And%20Downloadable%20PDFs/Content%20Guide%20Thumbnails/Holemaking_Guide_HR.pdf?__hstc=140417324.a8c63363ca2961ef7165a1909847d0f2.1653158759239.1653836599798.1653922765018.9&__hssc=140417324.2.1653922765018&__hsfp=1202131086&hsCtaTracking=70d6bf1d-0d47-4a55-8c1f-fffe1926bf33%7C63f7ba03-541b-4c89-a936-68d40861b340

Cheese · « **Reply #38 on:** June 04, 2022, 09:51 AM »

Something I just ran across, affordable coatings for machining aluminum from Harvey Tool are TiN & ZrN.

https://www.harveytool.com/resources/tool-coatings

tsmi243 · « **Reply #39 on:** June 04, 2022, 10:15 AM »

In regard to Pat Warner-

I never got around to ordering his ebooks (or newsletters, I think he called them) until it was too late. His business was not continued by anybody after his passing. And it doesn't seem right to ask for a free copy from somebody who has them.

Is there any ethical way to share the info in them?

dwillis · « **Reply #40 on:** June 04, 2022, 06:36 PM »

Along the topic of cutting aluminum, I recently cut quite a few countersinks in holes that I drilled in 3/8" aluminum bars using a tool steel countersink (not carbide). As a result the countersink was gummed up with aluminum (probably too high of a speed on the drill press and no lubricant). To easily remove the aluminum buildup I soaked the countersink in a solution of water and lye (drain opener or sodium hydroxide).

For you chemists out there sodium hydroxide plus water reacts with aluminum to form aluminum hydroxide and hydrogen gas, so don't have any ignition sources around (ask me about an "experiment" gone wrong in high school chemistry during an unsupervised afternoon

). Also follow the safety instructions with the lye, it's nasty stuff.

After a few hours (rate depends on strength of sodium hydroxide and water solution) the aluminum will be gone and the tool clean. Plus you can pour the used solution down the drain because it's also used to clean clogged drains. I haven't tried this method on carbide tipped tools, so if anyone has experience with carbide please let us know.

Mini Me · « **Reply #41 on:** June 04, 2022, 07:55 PM »

Quote from: tsmi243 on June 04, 2022, 10:15 AM

In regard to Pat Warner-

I never got around to ordering his ebooks (or newsletters, I think he called them) until it was too late. His business was not continued by anybody after his passing. And it doesn't seem right to ask for a free copy from somebody who has them.

Is there any ethical way to share the info in them?

From a naive onlooker's view it seems that all his work was simply abandoned by the family which those who were aware of his work would find disappointing, I know I did. Does that mean all the IP is simply locked up even though there is no interest from those who controlled his estate?

Cheese · « **Reply #42 on:** June 05, 2022, 09:18 AM »

Quote from: dwillis on June 04, 2022, 06:36 PM

After a few hours (rate depends on strength of sodium hydroxide and water solution) the aluminum will be gone and the tool clean. Plus you can pour the used solution down the drain because it's also used to clean clogged drains. I haven't tried this method on carbide tipped tools, so if anyone has experience with carbide please let us know.

I wouldn't use that solution on carbide tooling as even something as benign as Simple Green can attack the binder in carbide. This is from Simple Green

"Caustic oven cleaners are sometimes recommended as the best way to clean table saw blades. Sodium hydroxide, also known as lye, is the main ingredient in many spray-on oven cleaners. This can cause severe respiratory irritation, nausea, dizziness, skin burns, and more. Other varieties of commercial blade and bit cleaners often don't stay wet for the prescribed amount of soaking time, which doesn't do much to loosen residue from the blade.
In addition to being toxic, oven cleaner and saw blade cleaning products with caustic ingredients can potentially damage saw blades. They attack the binder in the carbide and the brazing used to secure the teeth to the blade."

https://simplegreen.com/cleaning-tips/rooms/garage/saw-blades/

Bob D. · « **Reply #43 on:** June 05, 2022, 10:02 AM »

" I recently cut quite a few countersinks in holes that I drilled in 3/8" aluminum bars using a tool steel countersink "

I don't think you'd have this problem if you used a Weldon Zero Flute Countersink.
https://heritagecutter.com/BrubakerWeldon/PublicStore/

I've used soapstone on a file designed to cut steel when cutting aluminum to help keep the file from getting clogged. It works in a pinch but a file designed for Aluminum is a better option if available.

Regarding Pat Warner the WayBack machine probably has most of what was on his site plus at least 6 of his books are currently available on Amazon. We will probably never know but it is possible that he left instructions on how to handle everything connected to the website, his books and other IP he owned. Those instructions could have been take it all down and never release it again. That doesn't sound like the Pat I came to only briefly know in a couple emails years ago when I bought a couple books directly from him along with two of his router bases. I'm just saying it's a possibility.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #44 on:** June 05, 2022, 12:30 PM »

Quote from: Bob D. on June 05, 2022, 10:02 AM

" I recently cut quite a few countersinks in holes that I drilled in 3/8" aluminum bars using a tool steel countersink "

I don't think you'd have this problem if you used a Weldon Zero Flute Countersink.
https://heritagecutter.com/BrubakerWeldon/PublicStore/

I've used soapstone on a file designed to cut steel when cutting aluminum to help keep the file from getting clogged. It works in a pinch but a file designed for Aluminum is a better option if available.

Regarding Pat Warner the WayBack machine probably has most of what was on his site plus at least 6 of his books are currently available on Amazon. We will probably never know but it is possible that he left instructions on how to handle everything connected to the website, his books and other IP he owned. Those instructions could have been take it all down and never release it again. That doesn't sound like the Pat I came to only briefly know in a couple emails years ago when I bought a couple books directly from him along with two of his router bases. I'm just saying it's a possibility.

Ron Covell recommended on YT using soap as lube when grinding AL, I've tried it on a 12" disk and it helps prevent loading. I also use zero flute countersinks and they work great.

RMW

Cheese · « **Reply #45 on:** June 05, 2022, 01:01 PM »

Quote from: Bob D. on June 05, 2022, 10:02 AM

I don't think you'd have this problem if you used a Weldon Zero Flute Countersink.
https://heritagecutter.com/BrubakerWeldon/PublicStore/

Even better than the Weldon (I use a Weldon for chamfering 20 mm holes in ply/MDF) I found the KEO Zero flute countersinks are machined from cobalt. I've used the Festool HSS Zero flute version on aluminum and only managed to chamfer 15-20 holes before the cutting degraded significantly. The KEO cobalt (M35) countersinks are slightly harder than HSS (HRC67-70 vs HRC63-65) but they are tougher so that the razor thin cutting edge in the Zero flute is retained for a longer time.

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/45117595

Bob D. · « **Reply #46 on:** June 05, 2022, 02:48 PM »

Good to know, thanks @Cheese

tsmi243 · « **Reply #47 on:** June 05, 2022, 03:08 PM »

Quote from: Bob D. on June 05, 2022, 10:02 AM

Regarding Pat Warner the WayBack machine probably has most of what was on his site plus at least 6 of his books are currently available on Amazon. We will probably never know but it is possible that he left instructions on how to handle everything connected to the website, his books and other IP he owned. Those instructions could have been take it all down and never release it again. That doesn't sound like the Pat I came to only briefly know in a couple emails years ago when I bought a couple books directly from him along with two of his router bases. I'm just saying it's a possibility.

His website was mostly just teasers for the ebooks, though. The content of the ebooks was emailed out by Pat after purchase. The Wayback won't have those.

rvieceli · « **Reply #48 on:** June 05, 2022, 03:38 PM »

The KEO zero flute countersinks are great.

While their primary purpose is to cut out a spot to sink a flat head screw flush or below the surface, they are also an excellent tool to deburr a drilled hole. Just take off a small sliver and it gets rid of the sharp edges and gives it a finished look.

Ron

Cheese · « **Reply #49 on:** June 15, 2022, 01:26 PM »

Received this email today pointing out the differences between 6061 & 6063.

https://www.kloecknermetals.com/blog/comparing-6061-vs-6063-aluminum/

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #50 on:** June 19, 2022, 12:53 AM »

I finally had a chance to try out the Shaper Origin on AL today, the results were good.

Started with some parts from SendCutSend and used the SO to modify and add features. One aspect that really helped was the ability to use the same design I made in F360 to generate both the .dxf they used to laser cut the parts and the .svg the SO used. These are 1/4" 6061:

Same SVG to cut the MDF fixture and the additional features. I just flipped the part over/around in the fixture as needed and repositioned the SVG. SO's use of probing and gridding made this possible.

The parts from SCS were a couple tenths of a mm oversized, easily fixed with a belt grinder and lapping. Then I needed to mill in an offset in the slot for a tee nut and a very shallow channel so the scale would be below the surface. I had a generic 2-flute carbide upcut bit in the SO & I gave that a try for the first pass, then changed out to a 1/4" O-flute. No surprise, the O-flute worked much better but the spiral upcut worked also.

Finished parts.

These are for narrow rip guides for the TS-55. I have a bunch of leftovers from the Rip Dog days, and I wanted a set of guides that I could use on 1/4" and thicker stock. Turned out great.

Given how well this worked I think I'm ready to tackle the fence using the MIC-6 plate.

RMW

Bob D. · « **Reply #51 on:** June 19, 2022, 06:45 AM »

Your narrow rip guides look great @Richard/RMW.

What is the turnaround time from SCS?

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #52 on:** June 19, 2022, 07:29 AM »

Quote from: Bob D. on June 19, 2022, 06:45 AM

Your narrow rip guides look great @Richard/RMW.

What is the turnaround time from SCS?

Placed the order on the 12th, shipped 16th arrived yesterday. Cost was ~$10/part with shipping.

I'm making a Hardy type setup for a workbench that will need a 1" square cutout in 3/8" steel plate, that'll be the next order.

RMW

rvieceli · « **Reply #53 on:** June 19, 2022, 07:51 AM »

@Bob D. one of the guys I do business with uses these people and really likes them. Might want to see what they could do.

https://laser-bros.com/

Ron

Cheese · « **Reply #54 on:** June 19, 2022, 09:33 AM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on June 19, 2022, 07:29 AM

Placed the order on the 12th, shipped 16th arrived yesterday. Cost was ~$10/part with shipping.

Lookin good...

The cost per part seems very reasonable considering the turnaround time.

What speed were you running the SO and how much of a cut were you taking?

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #55 on:** June 19, 2022, 09:50 AM »

Quote from: Cheese on June 19, 2022, 09:33 AM

Quote from: Richard/RMW on June 19, 2022, 07:29 AM

Placed the order on the 12th, shipped 16th arrived yesterday. Cost was ~$10/part with shipping.

Lookin good... The cost per part seems very reasonable considering the turnaround time.

What speed were you running the SO and how much of a cut were you taking?

@Cheese agree on SCS cost, caveat being I ordered 4 to cover their $29 minimum, only really needed 2. Even at the minimum they'd only have cost ~$15/part delivered. I've been really satisfied with their service.

I ended up pushing the speed up to max (26K) and got to 1mm cuts after making most at .5mm.

The heavier cuts were lengthening the slot/offset by about 10mm. Another nice thing with the SO was I could just shift the svg and make the cut. I've had the tool since they first came out but I'm only just starting to make full use of it, the WorkStation is now set up permanently.

RE: depth of cut, I'd been worried it would catch and pull, fighting me. It wasn't a problem, actually seemed to pull in AL less than it does routing ply.

RMW

rvieceli · « **Reply #56 on:** June 19, 2022, 10:09 AM »

Nice work Richard. Love your clear safety shoes

Ron

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #57 on:** June 19, 2022, 10:22 AM »

Quote from: rvieceli on June 19, 2022, 10:09 AM

Nice work Richard. Love your clear safety shoes

Ron

Steel-toed flip-flops are being re-soled.

This time of year I leave a couple pairs of sandals in the truck, otherwise I'll find myself at the Acme without shoes...

RMW

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #58 on:** June 19, 2022, 03:00 PM »

Ka-ching!

RMW

tjbnwi · « **Reply #59 on:** July 01, 2022, 05:36 PM »

Not aluminium but fun none the less.

Builder wanted brass spherical finials. Had the budget for me to design and turn.

The last drawings are a possible door knob project.

Tom

Cheese · « **Reply #60 on:** August 16, 2022, 12:29 PM »

Ran across this tap drill chart from Travers. I like that they give you tap hole diameters for both 75% & 50% threads. I usually shoot for 60% because it's the best of both worlds.

The last chart shown is also nice because it has both metric & imperial sizes combined into a single chart.

https://f.hubspotusercontent00.net/hubfs/5257956/Content%20Guides%20And%20Downloadable%20PDFs/Content%20Guide%20Thumbnails/Tap_Drill_Chart.pdf?__hstc=140417324.8042ce158be06ed73296bba5baca868f.1660058875562.1660058875562.1660662466409.2&__hssc=140417324.2.1660662466409&__hsfp=246074716&hsCtaTracking=418feaed-4426-456d-890f-3bb8a14dff61%7C21b17b9f-d503-493b-b73a-6ed16dc79430

Cheese · « **Reply #61 on:** October 25, 2022, 11:18 AM »

I'm a fan of flap wheels for deburring/grinding metals. I favor 3M Cubitron and Pferd discs because they last so long and are consistent throughout their lifetime.

About 3 months ago I needed something in a hurry so I purchased a handful of the CGW brand. They worked well but didn't seem to last as long as they should.

I recently purchased some more Pferd wheels and decided to compare the 2 brands. This surprised me.

A CGW for steel, A CGW for stainless & a Pferd for stainless.

Another item I noticed immediately is that there are at least twice as many filaments in the support structure on the Pferd wheel. I don't know if that's necessary but it does make me feel better and it again helps to explain some of the price difference between the wheels of $3.75 vs $5.00.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #62 on:** October 25, 2022, 06:08 PM »

Thanks Cheese. As usual, you get what you pay for.

Cheese · « **Reply #63 on:** October 26, 2022, 12:55 PM »

Got an email from Travers today to download their tap drill chart for both imperial & metric threads.

https://f.hubspotusercontent00.net/hubfs/5257956/Content%20Guides%20And%20Downloadable%20PDFs/Content%20Guide%20Thumbnails/Tap_Drill_Chart.pdf?__hstc=140417324.0ddac9622b518526834a09d11f33a6a6.1666722508561.1666722508561.1666800533419.2&__hssc=140417324.4.1666800533419&__hsfp=833781297&hsCtaTracking=418feaed-4426-456d-890f-3bb8a14dff61%7C21b17b9f-d503-493b-b73a-6ed16dc79430

Cheese · « **Reply #64 on:** December 10, 2022, 12:30 PM »

Just ran across these 2 new thin kerf CMT metal blades for the TSC 55 K. One for non-ferrous materials and the other for Stainless, now that last item is completely new for the 55 series saws. Previously it was only the 75 series that were available with steel cutting blades.

And here are a couple of regular kerf CMT metal blades for the 55 series saws. One for thin steel and one for thick steel.

And finally, here's the CMT PCD Diamond blade for cementitious materials that's been around for years. I have the 4 tooth version on an HKC and it works well. The newer 10 tooth version would be interesting to try out.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #65 on:** December 17, 2022, 02:47 PM »

The AL blade is interesting, I've had my little DW battery chop saw pretty much dedicated to AL all year. Been cutting a lot of 8020. Cheap blade from Amazon has been working great.

It's good to see blades coming out for the TSC K, I'm still using the stock one including trimming a little 1/4" 6061.

RMW

Cheese · « **Reply #66 on:** December 20, 2022, 02:06 PM »

Travers sent me this today, it takes a lot of the goofiness out of trying to identify/understand the various carbide inserts.

https://5257956.fs1.hubspotusercontent-na1.net/hubfs/5257956/Content%20Guides%20And%20Downloadable%20PDFs/Insert%20Identification%20Reference.pdf?__hstc=140417324.475f50fb3357f44235b927b653166d49.1671465423309.1671465423309.1671562233922.2&__hssc=140417324.2.1671562233922&__hsfp=2128657929&hsCtaTracking=2196bc4b-e547-41bf-8bff-ac90c1bd6261%7C04bb5082-0a63-41f3-a297-c3eec2fdce10

tsmi243 · « **Reply #67 on:** January 09, 2023, 11:16 AM »

Anything special about drilling aluminum extrusions?

I'm trying to put an LR32 hole pattern in a piece of T-track, but the Festool bits aren't biting. They just scribe little bullseyes on the surface.

Switching to the pointed LR32 bit and pre-drilling a pilot hole solves that problem, but the holes are now a really loose fit for shelf pins.

Cheese · « **Reply #68 on:** January 09, 2023, 12:38 PM »

Quote from: tsmi243 on January 09, 2023, 11:16 AM

1. Anything special about drilling aluminum extrusions?

2. I'm trying to put an LR32 hole pattern in a piece of T-track, but the Festool bits aren't biting. They just scribe little bullseyes on the surface.

3. Switching to the pointed LR32 bit and pre-drilling a pilot hole solves that problem, but the holes are now a really loose fit for shelf pins.

Will this be a long series of 5 mm holes or just a few?

1. You'll definitely want to use a lubricant with the drill bit, it can be a solid or liquid lubricant, I prefer isopropyl alcohol when drilling aluminum but be advised that IPA is flammable so take the necessary precautions. The lubricant will significantly reduce the wear on the drill bit but more importantly it will maintain a uniform hole diameter.

2. The bit you're describing has 2 sharp spurs on the outer edges so they will mark the hole diameter but they will not punch through the aluminum because of the design of the front cutting edge.

3. I'd use the pointed LR32 bit just to mark the center of each hole. I'd then follow up with selecting the proper sized bit needed to fit the pins, that's the experimental work.

Drill bits will usually drill oversized holes unless the drill bit itself is physically undersized. So it's not unusual to have that 5 mm drill bit produce a 5.1 mm hole or larger.

Here's a webpage from Travers that offers various sized metric drill bits. These are powdered metal while also being TiN & TiCN coated so they're very very spendy. Small metric drill bits are usually available in .1 mm sizes and if you stick with the TiN coating, that again will help maintain a uniform hole diameter.

https://www.travers.com/product/nachi-l7574p-metric-sg-coated-jobber-length-drills-498912?categoryIds=1778

The larger tooling houses usually stock all the various sizes. Another option I use is MSC Direct.

https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tn/Holemaking/Drilling-Drill-Bits/Metalworking-Multipurpose-Drill-Bits/Jobber-Length-Drill-Bits?mscNew=true&navid=2106186

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #69 on:** January 09, 2023, 02:18 PM »

@tsmi243 are you trying to use a router bit to drill holes in the aluminum t-track?

Maybe you should go to 1/4” pins and use a real 1/4” drill bit in a 1/4” collet?

tsmi243 · « **Reply #70 on:** January 09, 2023, 03:57 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on January 09, 2023, 12:38 PM

3. I'd use the pointed LR32 bit just to mark the center of each hole. I'd then follow up with selecting the proper sized bit

May have to do it that way. I was hoping to one-shot this with the LR32, but I'm guessing a 4.9mm router bit isn't going to be easy to find! Thanks for the suggestion, I got a 4.8 and a 4.9 coming this week.

Quote from: Michael Kellough on January 09, 2023, 02:18 PM

@tsmi243 are you trying to use a router bit to drill holes in the aluminum t-track?

Maybe you should go to 1/4” pins and use a real 1/4” drill bit in a 1/4” collet?

Yep, drilling the aluminum with the router.

For pins, I could use anything in any size. I just have lots of 5mm shelf pins handy, and the 5mm bit is already in the router. So that was the first attempt.

I was surprised that the bits won't touch the aluminum. I've had great results doing edge routing before. I'm not sure why drilling would be any different. I was wondering if the anodizing was the reason. I'll try sanding some off, and see if they bite then.

rmhinden · « **Reply #71 on:** January 09, 2023, 04:30 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on December 10, 2022, 12:30 PM

Just ran across these 2 new thin kerf CMT metal blades for the TSC 55 K. One for non-ferrous materials and the other for Stainless, now that last item is completely new for the 55 series saws. Previously it was only the 75 series that were available with steel cutting blades.

What do you recommend for a blade to cut aluminum for a Kapex?

Bob

Cheese · « **Reply #72 on:** January 09, 2023, 09:48 PM »

Quote from: rmhinden on January 09, 2023, 04:30 PM

What do you recommend for a blade to cut aluminum for a Kapex?

I purchased the Kapex aluminum blade when it was still being offered by Festool. Don't know what happened in corporate circles but at some point in time, Festool corporate/marketing obviously had a melt down when they suddenly decided to discontinue the aluminum blade along with the spark arrestor. Which makes no sense at all, as if you just move a few years forward, and they now offer an aluminum blade for hand saws...riddle me this, what is more dangerous, a hand guided saw or a fixed pivot chop saw?

The original Festool item is P/N 495386 if you're fortunate enough to find one. Another FOG member RST uses the Amana line of saw blades from Toolstoday.

rmhinden · « **Reply #73 on:** January 10, 2023, 02:57 AM »

Quote from: Cheese on January 09, 2023, 09:48 PM

The original Festool item is P/N 495386 if you're fortunate enough to find one. Another FOG member RST uses the Amana line of saw blades from Toolstoday.

@Cheese Thanks!

I looked up Festool 495386 and it came up with "Saw Blade LAMINATE/HPL HW 260X2,5X30 TF64".

I then looked around the Festool site (should have done that earlier) and found what looks like a Kapex blade for cutting Aluminum. Part number 494607. See:

Saw blade ALUMINIUM/PLASTICS HW 260x2,4x30 TF68

I assume that is the right one.

Looks like I can get it from Amazon UK for about $106 plus tax.

Bob

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #74 on:** January 10, 2023, 05:38 AM »

Quote from: Cheese on January 09, 2023, 09:48 PM

Quote from: rmhinden on January 09, 2023, 04:30 PM

What do you recommend for a blade to cut aluminum for a Kapex?

Another FOG member RST uses the Amana line of saw blades from Toolstoday.

I've had good luck with Oshlun for both AL & Steel. Their non-ferrous Kapex blade is available on Big A.

RMW

Cheese · « **Reply #75 on:** January 10, 2023, 01:05 PM »

Quote from: rmhinden on January 10, 2023, 02:57 AM

I looked up Festool 495386 and it came up with "Saw Blade LAMINATE/HPL HW 260X2,5X30 TF64".

I then looked around the Festool site (should have done that earlier) and found what looks like a Kapex blade for cutting Aluminum. Part number 494607. See:

Saw blade ALUMINIUM/PLASTICS HW 260x2,4x30 TF68

I assume that is the right one.

Looks like I can get it from Amazon UK for about $106 plus tax.

Bob

Sorry Bob I gave you the wrong number...it should have been 495385.

But this whole thing does bring up an interesting point as Festool in 2016 decided to obsolete their metal cutting blades for not only the Kapex, but also the TS 55. That's the reason I purchased this 495385 blade back in late 2016. Here's the blade...

At the time, this 495385 blade along with 3 other blades were newly released and on the front of the package it refers to the blade it replaced the 494607. Here's the front of the package.

Here's the rear of the package.

So the way this story reads is that the 494607 was replaced by the 495385 to then be replaced by the 494607.

Weird, as both blades appear to have exactly the same specs dimensionally in addition to grind geometries. At any rate, it seems like you're good to go.

The Amazon price also seems cheap because I paid Amazon $150 for the 495385 blade back in 2016.

tsmi243 · « **Reply #76 on:** January 10, 2023, 04:39 PM »

LR32 followup- It's not the aluminum, it's the bit. The pointy one. I switched back to MDF, and the flat tip bit works fine, but the pointy one drills oversize.

Soooo back to the drill press, I guess. I think spotting the holes with the LR32 is the best I'm gonna get.

Cheese · « **Reply #77 on:** March 01, 2023, 04:57 PM »

This may be of interest, especially the spiral flute tap that's been previously talked about.

https://f.hubspotusercontent00.net/hubfs/5257956/Content%20Guides%20And%20Downloadable%20PDFs/Tapping_Right.pdf

rvieceli · « **Reply #78 on:** March 01, 2023, 05:41 PM »

Like Richard I’ve had good luck with Oshlun blades for steel and aluminum. They make a wide variety of sizes and arbor sizes as well.

They are generally available on Amazon.

@Cheese im very fond of my spiral taps for bottoming tapping. It was always a hassle to extract swarf from the hole after using a regular bottoming tap. These keep the chips coming out the top.

Ron

Cheese · « **Reply #79 on:** May 10, 2023, 12:52 PM »

Here's a 3M Abrasive Solutions brochure that showed up in my mailbox this morning. It discusses Roloc Discs, abrasive belts, Scotch-Brite pads and Cubitron flap wheels.

https://f.hubspotusercontent00.net/hubfs/5257956/Content%20Guides%20And%20Downloadable%20PDFs/3M_Abrasives_Guide.pdf?__hstc=140417324.936935434c7c7d4e56e400ebdda117e0.1683221900122.1683221900122.1683733401120.2&__hssc=140417324.3.1683733401120&__hsfp=1091543274&hsCtaTracking=97609617-45c1-444b-8192-6bc8e993c354%7Cc697f060-a2de-4de7-9858-7056dc3bd650

Cheese · « **Reply #80 on:** May 17, 2023, 01:01 PM »

Here are 3 catalogs that 3M has produced that deal with abrasives for RA grinders. The Scotch-Brite™ Clean and Strip XT Pro discs are something that are new.
https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1569068O/scotch-brite-clean-and-strip-xt-pro-and-pro-extra-cut-brochure.pdf

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1017953O/3m-abrasives-for-right-angle-system-the-right-choice-brochure.pdf

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1273214O/3m-abrasives-for-right-angle-tools-field-guide-brochure.pdf

tsmi243 · « **Reply #81 on:** May 17, 2023, 04:56 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on May 17, 2023, 01:01 PM

The Scotch-Brite™ Clean and Strip XT Pro discs are something that are new.

I ordered some a few days ago. They're supposed to be really good for mill scale removal. I'll let you know how it goes.

Cheese · « **Reply #82 on:** May 18, 2023, 01:22 PM »

Quote from: tsmi243 on May 17, 2023, 04:56 PM

Quote from: Cheese on May 17, 2023, 01:01 PM
The Scotch-Brite™ Clean and Strip XT Pro discs are something that are new.

I ordered some a few days ago. They're supposed to be really good for mill scale removal. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks...I also ordered a couple as I want to remove some lime/calcium deposits from stainless. I ordered both Silicon Carbide & Aluminum Oxide versions and will be using them in an AGC 18.

Cheese · « **Reply #83 on:** May 25, 2023, 10:10 PM »

I received 3 Scotch-Brite™ 36 grit discs today. I tried out the glass fiber backed version which has a molded in 5/8-11 screw thread. It's very nice and very solid however, it is also very aggressive. That's not a big deal for steel items that will be powder coated, but it may be an issue for stainless issues left naked or for aluminum substrates. I'd like to see this item offered in a 60-80 grit version.

All of these discs are 36 grit, 2 with the TN designation (Tinnerman nut) and one with the molded in 5/8-11 screw threads. The differences between the discs is they are manufactured from either Aluminum Oxide or Silicon Carbide abrasives.

The non-Tinnerman nut disc was initially my favorite because there is no tangential run-out of the disc. The Tinnerman nut version produces a tangential runout because of the way it's manufactured. There is a pricing difference of 50 cents between the different styles which could be an issue if thousands of these discs were used per year...think automotive body shops.

The molded thread version is really nice, it glides along the surface and it would be my go-to disc. I plan on trying the Tinnerman nut version tomorrow and see how that goes. I expect the Tinnerman nut version to produce a weird machining pattern because of its constantly changing depth dimension. These photos may help.

In order of viewing...the fiberglass backer version with molded in 5/8"-11 threads, the TN versions which obviously have a serious offset...we'll find out how that affects the performance.

festal · « **Reply #84 on:** May 26, 2023, 07:33 AM »

So I have a Ridgid oscilating sander that has 4" x 24" belt attachment and been trying to find scotch-brite belts for it. Seems maverick abrrasives have them but only in quantity of 6 or more for each grit. Also mcmaster has them but at $40 each belt.
Any other places where i can get them decently priced?

Also what grit do people recommend to get? Medium, Fine, Ultra fine? basically for rust removal, getting rid of scratches etc on tools that I find and clean up lol.

Cheese · « **Reply #85 on:** May 26, 2023, 10:48 AM »

Quote from: festal on May 26, 2023, 07:33 AM

So I have a Ridgid oscilating sander that has 4" x 24" belt attachment and been trying to find scotch-brite belts for it. Seems maverick abrrasives have them but only in quantity of 6 or more for each grit. Also mcmaster has them but at $40 each belt.
Any other places where i can get them decently priced?

Also what grit do people recommend to get? Medium, Fine, Ultra fine? basically for rust removal, getting rid of scratches etc on tools that I find and clean up lol.

I've been very happy with these people. They usually have everything in stock at one or several of their warehouses. Reasonably priced and USUALLY purchasable in quantities of 1.

The items will show up at the house within 2-3 days.

I haven't had great luck with 3M Scotch-Brite or Dynabrade DynaBrite belts because if too much heat is generated, the adhesive that holds the ends together usually releases. For that reason I try to use Scotch-Brite products in a non-belt form like discs, flap wheels or hand pads.

These are traditional abrasive belts.
https://www.rshughes.com/c/Sanding-Belts/1126/?fn.1=Belt%20Width&fv.1=4%20in&fn.2=Brand&fv.2=3M&fn.3=Belt%20Length&fv.3=24%20in

festal · « **Reply #86 on:** May 26, 2023, 10:52 AM »

Quote from: Cheese on May 26, 2023, 10:48 AM

Quote from: festal on May 26, 2023, 07:33 AM
So I have a Ridgid oscilating sander that has 4" x 24" belt attachment and been trying to find scotch-brite belts for it. Seems maverick abrrasives have them but only in quantity of 6 or more for each grit. Also mcmaster has them but at $40 each belt.
Any other places where i can get them decently priced?

Also what grit do people recommend to get? Medium, Fine, Ultra fine? basically for rust removal, getting rid of scratches etc on tools that I find and clean up lol.

Thank you for the info. I just checked the link you posted and scotch brite version is over $400 lol. but good to know about the belt version

I've been very happy with these people. They usually have everything in stock at one or several of their warehouses. Reasonably priced and USUALLY purchasable in quantities of 1. The items will show up at the house within 2-3 days.

I haven't had great luck with 3M Scotch-Brite or Dynabrade DynaBrite belts because if too much heat is generated, the adhesive that holds the ends together usually releases. For that reason I try to use Scotch-Brite products in a non-belt form like discs, flap wheels or hand pads.

These are traditional abrasive belts.
https://www.rshughes.com/c/Sanding-Belts/1126/?fn.1=Belt%20Width&fv.1=4%20in&fn.2=Brand&fv.2=3M&fn.3=Belt%20Length&fv.3=24%20in

Cheese · « **Reply #87 on:** May 26, 2023, 11:18 AM »

Quote from: festal on May 26, 2023, 10:52 AM

Thank you for the info. I just checked the link you posted and scotch brite version is over $400 lol. but good to know about the belt version

I just placed an order for some of these to use on a RA grinder. They use hook & loop to attach to a backing pad. They can be purchased in single pieces. They are Scotch-Brite non-woven material loaded with precision shaped ceramic grains.

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/dc/v101337474/

rvieceli · « **Reply #88 on:** May 26, 2023, 04:50 PM »

@Cheese do you have a link for those and the adapter for the grinder with hook and loop.

Ron

Cheese · « **Reply #89 on:** May 27, 2023, 01:41 AM »

Quote from: rvieceli on May 26, 2023, 04:50 PM

@Cheese do you have a link for those and the adapter for the grinder with hook and loop.

Ron

Hey Ron @rvieceli , here's a copy of the invoice. The pad is item #4 638060-89871 and the discs are items #5-#9. Each disc can be ordered individually which is really a God-send.

These are 5" diameter discs, 4-1/2" discs and pads are also available.

I will say I have no previous experience with this system. Thus I'm hoping that I've ordered the correct items.

I should receive these items early next week as they've already been sent out...order on Friday and ship on Friday...what's not to like.

I'd be happy to weigh in once i receive the items to verify that everything plays well together.

Here's a link to the pad and to the discs.

https://www.rshughes.com/p/3M-Scotch-Brite-Universal-Surface-Conditioning-Back-Up-Pad-Hook-Loop-Attachment-5-In-Diameter-Contains-Three-Different-Attachment-Nuts-M10-M14-And-5-8-11-As-Well-As-Optional-Snap-In-Center-Post-89871/638060_89871/

https://www.rshughes.com/p/3M-Scotch-Brite-PN-DH-Precision-Surface-Conditioning-Hook-Loop-Disc-89242-Precision-Shaped-Ceramic-5-In-Coarse/638060_89242/

festal · « **Reply #90 on:** May 27, 2023, 07:28 AM »

Thanks for the links @Cheese
speaking of grinders. What grinder are you using for this? Looking to get one and currently researching

rvieceli · « **Reply #91 on:** May 27, 2023, 07:32 AM »

@Cheese Thanks so much for the info. I'll hold off ordering till I hear how they work for you.

They are also available in Roloc form as well

Ron

rvieceli · « **Reply #92 on:** May 27, 2023, 07:42 AM »

@festal I think cheese is using the Festool grinder, but I'm not sure.

I'm a big fan of Metabo grinders and am currently rocking a few of this model. I don't like to change disks so I keep a different wheel on each one. Strip disk, grinding wheel, wire brush, etc

https://beavertools.com/603624420-metabo-wp-11-125-quick-4-1-2-5in-angle-grinder.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw1MajBhAcEiwAagW9MVZXtC3oGbvMSFEfVLgBByafZXCWBv6vfZEh_ByM-nN6awJYG0A31RoCMKgQAvD_BwE

They make several different models including variable speed ones as well. This model is good quality and price.

I like the safety switch models, have to keep the paddle switch depressed to keep it running. Kind of a dead man switch.

Ron

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #93 on:** May 27, 2023, 07:47 AM »

@Cheese I'll be interested in your results with those disks. The 3M selection I was able to find on Amazon was underwhelming and I never put in the energy to search further. Mostly I'm using disks from the local-ish industrial supply, the carry SAIT and similar options. Hughes looks like a good source for 3M.

RE: working with AL, I've needed some pre-sized blanks for making misc. parts with Origin and found the best approach was old school, cut them with the saw and grind to final size. Made sense to make a jig.

A few years ago I filed the front edge of the grinder table to make it parallel with the disk. The first (rightmost) guide gets set with the jig a few thou off of the disk. The screws holding the guide in the slot are loose, so the jig can move in and out until it hits the hard stop.

With the hard stop set, you use a gage block to set the fence.

I use a 10 thou shim when setting the fence, to leave the final part oversized, then file/lap it to final dimension. Should'a made this years ago.

Looking forward to your report on the 3M disks.

RMW

Cheese · « **Reply #94 on:** May 27, 2023, 09:18 AM »

Quote from: festal on May 27, 2023, 07:28 AM

Thanks for the links @Cheese
speaking of grinders. What grinder are you using for this? Looking to get one and currently researching

I have a corded Milwaukee that AEG made that is variable speed, a Milwaukee M18 cordless single speed and recently the AGC 18 which is variable speed. Like Ron mentioned, I also keep different discs/wheels on each grinder, it really does speed up the process.

The Festool grinder is smoother & quieter than both of the Milwaukee grinders. Then again, the AEG is 24 years old and the Milwaukee cordless is 9 years old, maybe that's part of the issue.

I also had a German made Metabo that I really liked but it grew legs one night and walked out of the garage.

rvieceli · « **Reply #95 on:** May 27, 2023, 09:59 AM »

The country of origin on the Metabo I linked to is Germany.

festal · « **Reply #96 on:** May 27, 2023, 10:00 AM »

I'm thinking of getting one of the M18 ones since i already have few batteries for it. i also have an old craftsman corded one that i can keep as well

Cheese · « **Reply #97 on:** May 27, 2023, 10:09 AM »

That's a real nice jig you made Richard

I just may have to copy that.

Was the slotting done with the Shaper Origin? I really like the hold down feature, simple but effective, very clever.

rst · « **Reply #98 on:** May 27, 2023, 10:14 AM »

While I don’t have near as many grinders as routers, in 50 years I’ve got a few. I have two old B&D corded from the 70s - 80s when they making industrial tools. I had those for commercial door and locksmithing. Diamond blade in one cutting blade in the other. Bought an M18 Milwaukee when they came out. Recently got two Metabos, a low slope nose and a six inch, both 18v. The Metabos are fantastic tools, I’m going to sell the Milwaukee

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #99 on:** May 27, 2023, 10:51 AM »

@Cheese what do you call that special nut (that you can remove by hand) on your grinder in the other thread?

Cheese · « **Reply #100 on:** May 27, 2023, 11:38 AM »

Quote from: Michael Kellough on May 27, 2023, 10:51 AM

@Cheese what do you call that special nut (that you can remove by hand) on your grinder in the other thread?

Michael are you talking about this nut? If so it's the Festool quick release nut they provide with the AGC 18. I also added one to both of my Milwaukee RA grinders.

Interesting that Milwaukee thought it was important to include that style nut on this 19 year old Milwaukee abrasive saw yet they didn't provide it on their newer RA grinders.

rvieceli · « **Reply #101 on:** May 27, 2023, 01:16 PM »

Michael the style of nut is available from a lot of vendors online and if you gave a Home Depot nearby.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-Fixtec-Tool-Free-Grinder-Flange-Nut-49-40-2783/308642822

Ron

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #102 on:** May 27, 2023, 05:52 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on May 27, 2023, 10:09 AM

That's a real nice jig you made Richard I just may have to copy that. Was the slotting done with the Shaper Origin? I really like the hold down feature, simple but effective, very clever.

Thanks. Yes, cut with Origin on the WorkStation with and o-flute. It's been greeting a regular diet of 6061 lately.

RMW

festal · « **Reply #103 on:** May 27, 2023, 08:06 PM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 27, 2023, 05:52 PM

Quote from: Cheese on May 27, 2023, 10:09 AM
That's a real nice jig you made Richard I just may have to copy that. Was the slotting done with the Shaper Origin? I really like the hold down feature, simple but effective, very clever.

Thanks. Yes, cut with Origin on the WorkStation with and o-flute. It's been greeting a regular diet of 6061 lately.

RMW

Still trying to figure out how its used lol

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #104 on:** May 27, 2023, 09:13 PM »

Quote from: festal on May 27, 2023, 08:06 PM

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 27, 2023, 05:52 PM
Quote from: Cheese on May 27, 2023, 10:09 AM
That's a real nice jig you made Richard I just may have to copy that. Was the slotting done with the Shaper Origin? I really like the hold down feature, simple but effective, very clever.

Thanks. Yes, cut with Origin on the WorkStation with and o-flute. It's been greeting a regular diet of 6061 lately.

RMW

Still trying to figure out how its used lol

Not sure I can do this with words.

Say I am starting with a piece of bar stock that varies from 39 to 41mm over a 100mm length, and I need to finish at 38.1mm over the length. With the hard stop against the grinder front esdge I'd use a 38.1mm gage block pushed against the disk to set the fence. The hard stop prevents the jig for moving any closer to the disk but it can slide further away.

With the rough stock clamped against the fence there is between 0.9 and 1.9mm hanging over the front edge and the hard stop is not touching the front edge of the grinder. I just grind that stock away until the hard stop prevents any further movement towards the disk and the stock is now the same size as the dimension the fence was set to.

Make any sense? A 10 second video would make it clear.

RMW

tsmi243 · « **Reply #105 on:** May 27, 2023, 09:32 PM »

What does the bar inside the miter slot do?

And is that a diy disc sander? Much nicer table than I'm used to seeing. I love cast iron....

festal · « **Reply #106 on:** May 27, 2023, 10:11 PM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 27, 2023, 09:13 PM

Quote from: festal on May 27, 2023, 08:06 PM
Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 27, 2023, 05:52 PM
Quote from: Cheese on May 27, 2023, 10:09 AM
That's a real nice jig you made Richard I just may have to copy that. Was the slotting done with the Shaper Origin? I really like the hold down feature, simple but effective, very clever.

Thanks. Yes, cut with Origin on the WorkStation with and o-flute. It's been greeting a regular diet of 6061 lately.

RMW

Still trying to figure out how its used lol

Not sure I can do this with words.

Say I am starting with a piece of bar stock that varies from 39 to 41mm over a 100mm length, and I need to finish at 38.1mm over the length. With the hard stop against the grinder front esdge I'd use a 38.1mm gage block pushed against the disk to set the fence. The hard stop prevents the jig for moving any closer to the disk but it can slide further away.

With the rough stock clamped against the fence there is between 0.9 and 1.9mm hanging over the front edge and the hard stop is not touching the front edge of the grinder. I just grind that stock away until the hard stop prevents any further movement towards the disk and the stock is now the same size as the dimension the fence was set to.

Make any sense? A 10 second video would make it clear.

RMW

It does. Video would be great. Also have same question as above. About the jig itself. And filing the table front. What does that do?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #107 on:** May 28, 2023, 06:45 AM »

Quote from: festal on May 27, 2023, 10:11 PM

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 27, 2023, 09:13 PM
Quote from: festal on May 27, 2023, 08:06 PM
Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 27, 2023, 05:52 PM
Quote from: Cheese on May 27, 2023, 10:09 AM
That's a real nice jig you made Richard I just may have to copy that. Was the slotting done with the Shaper Origin? I really like the hold down feature, simple but effective, very clever.

Thanks. Yes, cut with Origin on the WorkStation with and o-flute. It's been greeting a regular diet of 6061 lately.

RMW

Still trying to figure out how its used lol

Not sure I can do this with words.

Say I am starting with a piece of bar stock that varies from 39 to 41mm over a 100mm length, and I need to finish at 38.1mm over the length. With the hard stop against the grinder front esdge I'd use a 38.1mm gage block pushed against the disk to set the fence. The hard stop prevents the jig for moving any closer to the disk but it can slide further away.

With the rough stock clamped against the fence there is between 0.9 and 1.9mm hanging over the front edge and the hard stop is not touching the front edge of the grinder. I just grind that stock away until the hard stop prevents any further movement towards the disk and the stock is now the same size as the dimension the fence was set to.

Make any sense? A 10 second video would make it clear.

RMW
It does. Video would be great. Also have same question as above. About the jig itself. And filing the table front. What does that do?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The front edge needed to be absolutely parallel with the disk to use it as reference. The casting was slightly rough so I had to grind and file it slightly until it was smooth and consistent.

I'll see about a video, I'm not set up for anything other than phone so it wouldn't be pretty...

RMW

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #108 on:** May 28, 2023, 07:03 AM »

Quote from: tsmi243 on May 27, 2023, 09:32 PM

What does the bar inside the miter slot do?

And is that a diy disc sander? Much nicer table than I'm used to seeing. I love cast iron....

It's a 25 year old Delta 12" sander. Import but a really nice tool that gets tons of use, IIRC it was my first marital Xmas gift.

The screws holding that bar are tightened with the hard stop against the table edge before setting the fence with a gage block. Then loosen the screws so the jig can move away from the disk and the excess material to be ground off hangs over the front edge.

The jig is intended for removing the last couple mm from rough cut stock to end up with precision parts. It there is more than a mm or two of stock to remove I'll free hand it first then take the last little bit off using the jig.

RMW

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #109 on:** May 28, 2023, 07:14 AM »

Quote from: Cheese on May 27, 2023, 11:38 AM

Quote from: Michael Kellough on May 27, 2023, 10:51 AM
@Cheese what do you call that special nut (that you can remove by hand) on your grinder in the other thread?

Michael are you talking about this nut? If so it's the Festool quick release nut they provide with the AGC 18. I also added one to both of my Milwaukee RA grinders.

(Attachment Link)

Interesting that Milwaukee thought it was important to include that style nut on this 19 year old Milwaukee abrasive saw yet they didn't provide it on their newer RA grinders.

(Attachment Link)

@Cheese does the Festool angle grinder offer any benefit that justify the cost premium over a yellow or red one?

The handle orientation looks good for cutting but then it's sideways for most grinding, the opposite of common right-angle grinders.

None of my grinders have variable speed, but I'm not sure I miss/need it.

RMW

festal · « **Reply #110 on:** May 28, 2023, 07:33 AM »

@Richard/RMW which one is the hard stop? one riding in the groove or the one against the edge of the table?

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #111 on:** May 28, 2023, 07:43 AM »

Quote from: festal on May 28, 2023, 07:33 AM

@Richard/RMW which one is the hard stop? one riding in the groove or the one against the edge of the table?

Against the table edge. The bar in the groove is only used when setting the fence.

I'll try to cobble together a video today.

RMW

festal · « **Reply #112 on:** May 28, 2023, 07:54 AM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 07:43 AM

Quote from: festal on May 28, 2023, 07:33 AM
@Richard/RMW which one is the hard stop? one riding in the groove or the one against the edge of the table?

Against the table edge. The bar in the groove is only used when setting the fence.

I'll try to cobble together a video today.

Thank you

RMW

rvieceli · « **Reply #113 on:** May 28, 2023, 09:04 AM »

Richard - Don't you have a mini mill? Couldn't you make those by standing them on edge in the mill vise and running them under a cutter?

Is it not rigid enough to hold the tolerances you need?

Ron

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #114 on:** May 28, 2023, 09:21 AM »

Quote from: rvieceli on May 28, 2023, 09:04 AM

Richard - Don't you have a mini mill? Couldn't you make those by standing them on edge in the mill vise and running them under a cutter?

Is it not rigid enough to hold the tolerances you need?

Ron

Used to Ron, but no longer, no room. I'd love to have space for a decent mill and small (not mini) lathe.

This setup actually works really well, takes longer to explain than to use it. I keep 1/2, 3/8 & 1/4 bar stock on hand from 1-4" and the little 20V portaband make short work of lopping off a chunk. I was just hand marking, grinding and filing too much, which led to making the jig.

I haven't needed to do it yet but setting the fence at an angle simlarly makes it fast and easy to make precise angled parts. A lot of this is due to the recent dawning on me that setting a stop or fence using gage blocks is so much more accurate than measuring or using a built in scale. It was kinda a head-slapper what-took-me-so-long moment.

RMW

Cheese · « **Reply #115 on:** May 28, 2023, 09:50 AM »

Hey Richard...what diameter O-flute cutter and at what rpm?

The beautiful thing about that jig is you really don't have to worry about it moving precisely parallel to the disc because you're going to continue to grind until the hard stop contacts the front edge of the table which IS parallel to the disc.

I'm going to have to measure my Jet and see how parallel the front edge is to the platen surface. I need to change the abrasive disc anyways.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #116 on:** May 28, 2023, 10:05 AM »

Quote from: Cheese on May 28, 2023, 09:50 AM

Hey Richard...what diameter O-flute cutter and at what rpm?

@Cheese there is a major bout of yapping about Origin and AL over on the SO forum, short answer is:

3/16" O-Flute bit
Plunge 100
Auto speed 125
Speed ~3
(Auto) passes between 1.5 & 1.7 DOC

This is a place where AutoPass really shines, ramping into the cut mostly eliminates the tendency for the cutter to grab and jerk Origin around.

Quote from: Cheese on May 28, 2023, 09:50 AM

The beautiful thing about that jig is you really don't have to worry about it moving precisely parallel to the disc because you're going to continue to grind until the hard stop contacts the front edge of the table which IS parallel to the disc.

Exactly. Combined with setting the fence from the disk using a gage block it ensures a precise, parallel result. More and more I need to idiot-proof everything I do, lest I figure out a new & innovative way to dumb something.

RMW

festal · « **Reply #117 on:** May 28, 2023, 10:39 AM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 10:05 AM

Quote from: Cheese on May 28, 2023, 09:50 AM
Hey Richard...what diameter O-flute cutter and at what rpm?

@Cheese there is a major bout of yapping about Origin and AL over on the SO forum, short answer is:

3/16" O-Flute bit
Plunge 100
Auto speed 125
Speed ~3
(Auto) passes between 1.5 & 1.7 DOC

This is a place where AutoPass really shines, ramping into the cut mostly eliminates the tendency for the cutter to grab and jerk Origin around.

Quote from: Cheese on May 28, 2023, 09:50 AM
The beautiful thing about that jig is you really don't have to worry about it moving precisely parallel to the disc because you're going to continue to grind until the hard stop contacts the front edge of the table which IS parallel to the disc.

Exactly. Combined with setting the fence from the disk using a gage block it ensures a precise, parallel result. More and more I need to idiot-proof everything I do, lest I figure out a new & innovative way to dumb something.

RMW

1.5 thou doc?
What gage blocks are you using?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cheese · « **Reply #118 on:** May 28, 2023, 10:48 AM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 10:05 AM

@Cheese there is a major bout of yapping about Origin and AL over on the SO forum, short answer is:

3/16" O-Flute bit
Plunge 100
Auto speed 125
Speed ~3
(Auto) passes between 1.5 & 1.7 DOC

This is a place where AutoPass really shines, ramping into the cut mostly eliminates the tendency for the cutter to grab and jerk Origin around.

Thanks for the SO thread

that's really interesting. I'd never have thought those little parts could be fabricated with a router...they seem squarely within the realm of milling machine work. Good job, I guess necessity is the mother of invention.

Cheese · « **Reply #119 on:** May 28, 2023, 10:53 AM »

Quote from: festal on May 28, 2023, 10:39 AM

1.5 thou doc?
What gage blocks are you using?

If I were to guess, it'd be a standard sized gauge block along with some feeler stock.

So setting to 18.1 mm would be an 18 mm block along with some .004" feeler gauge stock...just a guess.

rvieceli · « **Reply #120 on:** May 28, 2023, 11:42 AM »

@festal Feeler gauges are wonderful things to have around. Shim stock is expensive. Feeler gauges are usually between $5-$10. Most closer to $5. Readily available at most outlets from Harbor Freight, Walmart, NAPA, Autozone.

Take the things apart and you have a bunch of shim stock. Can be stacked when you need an in between size etc.

https://www.harborfreight.com/feeler-gauge-32-piece-63665.html

Ron

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #121 on:** May 28, 2023, 12:08 PM »

Quote from: festal on May 28, 2023, 10:39 AM

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 10:05 AM
Quote from: Cheese on May 28, 2023, 09:50 AM
Hey Richard...what diameter O-flute cutter and at what rpm?

@Cheese there is a major bout of yapping about Origin and AL over on the SO forum, short answer is:

3/16" O-Flute bit
Plunge 100
Auto speed 125
Speed ~3
(Auto) passes between 1.5 & 1.7 DOC

This is a place where AutoPass really shines, ramping into the cut mostly eliminates the tendency for the cutter to grab and jerk Origin around.

Quote from: Cheese on May 28, 2023, 09:50 AM
The beautiful thing about that jig is you really don't have to worry about it moving precisely parallel to the disc because you're going to continue to grind until the hard stop contacts the front edge of the table which IS parallel to the disc.

Exactly. Combined with setting the fence from the disk using a gage block it ensures a precise, parallel result. More and more I need to idiot-proof everything I do, lest I figure out a new & innovative way to dumb something.

RMW
1.5 thou doc?
What gage blocks are you using?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry, Depth of Cut, but in mm not thou, so ~1.5mm per pass. AutoPass ramps into each depth consecutively until you hit the target. It's a fantastic time-saver in general and IMO indispensable when cutting AL.

I got several sets of cheap gage blocks in metric on Bangood or AliExpress, don't recall which. Augmented those with @rvieceli brilliant suggestion elsewhere to use feeler gages for <1mm shims.

Really bad video making its way to the cloud now, should have it cobbled together shortly. The hand model had the day off so remember, you asked for it...

RMW

festal · « **Reply #122 on:** May 28, 2023, 12:11 PM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 12:08 PM

Quote from: festal on May 28, 2023, 10:39 AM
Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 10:05 AM
Quote from: Cheese on May 28, 2023, 09:50 AM
Hey Richard...what diameter O-flute cutter and at what rpm?

@Cheese there is a major bout of yapping about Origin and AL over on the SO forum, short answer is:

3/16" O-Flute bit
Plunge 100
Auto speed 125
Speed ~3
(Auto) passes between 1.5 & 1.7 DOC

This is a place where AutoPass really shines, ramping into the cut mostly eliminates the tendency for the cutter to grab and jerk Origin around.

Quote from: Cheese on May 28, 2023, 09:50 AM
The beautiful thing about that jig is you really don't have to worry about it moving precisely parallel to the disc because you're going to continue to grind until the hard stop contacts the front edge of the table which IS parallel to the disc.

Exactly. Combined with setting the fence from the disk using a gage block it ensures a precise, parallel result. More and more I need to idiot-proof everything I do, lest I figure out a new & innovative way to dumb something.

RMW
1.5 thou doc?
What gage blocks are you using?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry, Depth of Cut, but in mm not thou, so ~1.5mm per pass. AutoPass ramps into each depth consecutively until you hit the target. It's a fantastic time-saver in general and IMO indispensable when cutting AL.

I got several sets of cheap gage blocks in metric on Bangood or AliExpress, don't recall which. Augmented those with @rvieceli brilliant suggestion elsewhere to use feeler gages for <1mm shims.

Really bad video making its way to the cloud now, should have it cobbled together shortly. The hand model had the day off so remember, you asked for it...

RMW

Yep I remember reading about the feeler gauges as shim stock. Used it too

So you are using 0.03mm doc with auto pass?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #123 on:** May 28, 2023, 12:29 PM »

Quote from: festal on May 28, 2023, 12:11 PM

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 12:08 PM
Quote from: festal on May 28, 2023, 10:39 AM
Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 10:05 AM
Quote from: Cheese on May 28, 2023, 09:50 AM
Hey Richard...what diameter O-flute cutter and at what rpm?

@Cheese there is a major bout of yapping about Origin and AL over on the SO forum, short answer is:

3/16" O-Flute bit
Plunge 100
Auto speed 125
Speed ~3
(Auto) passes between 1.5 & 1.7 DOC

This is a place where AutoPass really shines, ramping into the cut mostly eliminates the tendency for the cutter to grab and jerk Origin around.

Quote from: Cheese on May 28, 2023, 09:50 AM
The beautiful thing about that jig is you really don't have to worry about it moving precisely parallel to the disc because you're going to continue to grind until the hard stop contacts the front edge of the table which IS parallel to the disc.

Exactly. Combined with setting the fence from the disk using a gage block it ensures a precise, parallel result. More and more I need to idiot-proof everything I do, lest I figure out a new & innovative way to dumb something.

RMW
1.5 thou doc?
What gage blocks are you using?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry, Depth of Cut, but in mm not thou, so ~1.5mm per pass. AutoPass ramps into each depth consecutively until you hit the target. It's a fantastic time-saver in general and IMO indispensable when cutting AL.

I got several sets of cheap gage blocks in metric on Bangood or AliExpress, don't recall which. Augmented those with @rvieceli brilliant suggestion elsewhere to use feeler gages for <1mm shims.

Really bad video making its way to the cloud now, should have it cobbled together shortly. The hand model had the day off so remember, you asked for it...

RMW
Yep I remember reading about the feeler gauges as shim stock. Used it too

So you are using 0.03mm doc with auto pass?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nope, each pass is around 1.5mm. Depends on the final depth as AutoPass lets you set the # of passes, so if the final depth is 6mm and I select 4 passes, each one is 1.5mm.

RMW

Cheese · « **Reply #124 on:** May 28, 2023, 12:40 PM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 07:14 AM

@Cheese does the Festool angle grinder offer any benefit that justify the cost premium over a yellow or red one?

The handle orientation looks good for cutting but then it's sideways for most grinding, the opposite of common right-angle grinders.

None of my grinders have variable speed, but I'm not sure I miss/need it.

The first thing I noticed is how smooth it runs, it doesn't have that hand numbing vibration like the Milwaukee. The second was noise level. The Milwaukees have a lot more noise, difficult to describe but a combination of gear noise, a higher level of noise and at both higher & lower frequencies.

One thing to watch though is to thoroughly tighten whatever disc/item you put on the AGC because the brake is much more effective. I've had both a cut off disc and a Scotch-Brite disc come loose because the Festool comes to a halt in 1-1.5 seconds while the Milwaukee slowly takes 4-5 seconds to wind down.

The handle orientation can be easily changed because the head rotates 180º by removing 4 screws.

The reduction in rpm does make a big difference for battery life. On speed level 1 (4500 rpm) the AGC is rotating faster than a RAS 115 at maximum 4000 rpm.

I was removing mineral stains on stainless using Scotch-Brite discs. With a 4.0 battery I was getting about 30 min of run time. Lowering the rpm to level 1, the run time improved to almost double that.

For heavy grinding or cutting I'd set the speed back to max but would install a 5.2 battery instead. The 4.0 battery balances the AGC nicely and that's my favorite combination.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #125 on:** May 28, 2023, 12:47 PM »

You were warned. The full process is:

Rough cut stock 1+mm oversized
Tighten the miter bar with the hard stop against the grinder face
Using gage blocks, set the fence to the final dimension (40mm in this case), plus 0.5mm shim, loosen the miter bar screws
Secure stock and grind the first edge, knock off the burrs
Rotate stock and secure using the 0.25mm shim to offset the second edge
Grind and deburr, which leaves you with the final dimension plus +/- 0.25mm
Lap to final dimension using 120G wet/dry and a surface plate

Last chance...
Really bad video alert

Stock prep:

Gage blocks & shims:

Rough stock:

Stock after < 4 minutes setting up & grinding:

Stock after 60 seconds of lapping:

I needed a 40mm gage block, thanks for providing the nudge to finally make it.

RMW

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #126 on:** May 28, 2023, 01:01 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on May 28, 2023, 12:40 PM

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 07:14 AM

@Cheese does the Festool angle grinder offer any benefit that justify the cost premium over a yellow or red one?

The handle orientation looks good for cutting but then it's sideways for most grinding, the opposite of common right-angle grinders.

None of my grinders have variable speed, but I'm not sure I miss/need it.

The first thing I noticed is how smooth it runs, it doesn't have that hand numbing vibration like the Milwaukee. The second was noise level. The Milwaukees have a lot more noise, difficult to describe but a combination of gear noise, a higher level of noise and at both higher & lower frequencies.

One thing to watch though is to thoroughly tighten whatever disc/item you put on the AGC because the brake is much more effective. I've had both a cut off disc and a Scotch-Brite disc come loose because the Festool comes to a halt in 1-1.5 seconds while the Milwaukee slowly takes 4-5 seconds to wind down.

The handle orientation can be easily changed because the head rotates 180º by removing 4 screws.

The reduction in rpm does make a big difference for battery life. On speed level 1 (4500 rpm) the AGC is rotating faster than a RAS 115 at maximum 4000 rpm.

I was removing mineral stains on stainless using Scotch-Brite discs. With a 4.0 battery I was getting about 30 min of run time. Lowering the rpm to level 1, the run time improved to almost double that. For heavy grinding or cutting I'd set the speed back to max but would install a 5.2 battery instead. The 4.0 battery balances the AGC nicely and that's my favorite combination.

(Attachment Link)

Thanks. I have the DeWalt 20V and know what you mean about the noise, it has a definite grinding-gearbox sound.

Funny you mention the effect of the brake, as my first thought when you mentioned the locking nut earlier is that I never use a wrench on the DW anyway, just the friction of the nut against the disk, which I grab and tighten or loosen by hand. Never occurred to me it could loosen itself that way.

Just idle curiosity anyways, I have so many 4-1/2" grinders that 2-3 are stored in the house. A guy can dream, right?

RMW

festal · « **Reply #127 on:** May 28, 2023, 01:04 PM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 12:29 PM

Quote from: festal on May 28, 2023, 12:11 PM
Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 12:08 PM
Quote from: festal on May 28, 2023, 10:39 AM
Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 10:05 AM
Quote from: Cheese on May 28, 2023, 09:50 AM
Hey Richard...what diameter O-flute cutter and at what rpm?

@Cheese there is a major bout of yapping about Origin and AL over on the SO forum, short answer is:

3/16" O-Flute bit
Plunge 100
Auto speed 125
Speed ~3
(Auto) passes between 1.5 & 1.7 DOC

This is a place where AutoPass really shines, ramping into the cut mostly eliminates the tendency for the cutter to grab and jerk Origin around.

Quote from: Cheese on May 28, 2023, 09:50 AM
The beautiful thing about that jig is you really don't have to worry about it moving precisely parallel to the disc because you're going to continue to grind until the hard stop contacts the front edge of the table which IS parallel to the disc.

Exactly. Combined with setting the fence from the disk using a gage block it ensures a precise, parallel result. More and more I need to idiot-proof everything I do, lest I figure out a new & innovative way to dumb something.

RMW
1.5 thou doc?
What gage blocks are you using?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry, Depth of Cut, but in mm not thou, so ~1.5mm per pass. AutoPass ramps into each depth consecutively until you hit the target. It's a fantastic time-saver in general and IMO indispensable when cutting AL.

I got several sets of cheap gage blocks in metric on Bangood or AliExpress, don't recall which. Augmented those with @rvieceli brilliant suggestion elsewhere to use feeler gages for <1mm shims.

Really bad video making its way to the cloud now, should have it cobbled together shortly. The hand model had the day off so remember, you asked for it...

RMW
Yep I remember reading about the feeler gauges as shim stock. Used it too

So you are using 0.03mm doc with auto pass?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nope, each pass is around 1.5mm. Depends on the final depth as AutoPass lets you set the # of passes, so if the final depth is 6mm and I select 4 passes, each one is 1.5mm.

RMW

Oh didn’t know you can do that deep per pass with shaper

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tsmi243 · « **Reply #128 on:** May 28, 2023, 02:00 PM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 12:47 PM

Tighten the miter bar with the hard stop against the grinder face
Using gage blocks, set the fence to the final dimension (40mm in this case), plus 0.5mm shim, loosen the miter bar screws

I get it now- it's not there for the actual cut. It's just a 3rd hand for setting the fence. That's a really good system.

How does that machine do on mild steel?

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #129 on:** May 28, 2023, 02:34 PM »

Quote from: tsmi243 on May 28, 2023, 02:00 PM

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 12:47 PM

Tighten the miter bar with the hard stop against the grinder face
Using gage blocks, set the fence to the final dimension (40mm in this case), plus 0.5mm shim, loosen the miter bar screws

I get it now- it's not there for the actual cut. It's just a 3rd hand for setting the fence. That's a really good system.

How does that machine do on mild steel?

The grinder is great on steel also. The disk is pretty well done, needs to be replaced which is the downside since it involves peeling it of and then cleaning adhesive using lacquer thinner. PITA.

Side note, did lacquer thinner get "improved" recently? My most recent gallon smells different.

RMW

festal · « **Reply #130 on:** May 28, 2023, 03:08 PM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 02:34 PM

Quote from: tsmi243 on May 28, 2023, 02:00 PM
Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 12:47 PM

Tighten the miter bar with the hard stop against the grinder face
Using gage blocks, set the fence to the final dimension (40mm in this case), plus 0.5mm shim, loosen the miter bar screws

I get it now- it's not there for the actual cut. It's just a 3rd hand for setting the fence. That's a really good system.

How does that machine do on mild steel?

The grinder is great on steel also. The disk is pretty well done, needs to be replaced which is the downside since it involves peeling it of and then cleaning adhesive using lacquer thinner. PITA.

Side note, did lacquer thinner get "improved" recently? My most recent gallon smells different.

RMW

One more question lol. How close to the wheel is the base of the jig? Hard to tell in the video but it’s not touching the wheel?
Do you have any drawings and measurements of the jig?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cheese · « **Reply #131 on:** May 28, 2023, 03:25 PM »

Quote from: festal on May 28, 2023, 03:08 PM

One more question lol. How close to the wheel is the base of the jig? Hard to tell in the video but it’s not touching the wheel?
Do you have any drawings and measurements of the jig?

Richard mentioned a couple of thousandths.

festal · « **Reply #132 on:** May 28, 2023, 03:33 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on May 28, 2023, 03:25 PM

Quote from: festal on May 28, 2023, 03:08 PM

One more question lol. How close to the wheel is the base of the jig? Hard to tell in the video but it’s not touching the wheel?
Do you have any drawings and measurements of the jig?

Richard mentioned a couple of thousandths.

oops. missed it. appologies

festal · « **Reply #133 on:** May 28, 2023, 04:21 PM »

@Cheese does festool grinder work with 5" wheels or only 4-1/2?

Cheese · « **Reply #134 on:** May 28, 2023, 04:34 PM »

Quote from: festal on May 28, 2023, 04:21 PM

@Cheese does festool grinder work with 5" wheels or only 4-1/2?

Yup...check out this post for purchasing proper 5" guards.

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/ask-festool/does-the-north-american-agc-18-ship-with-a-5-guard-or-a-4-12-guard/msg694048/#msg694048

Coen · « **Reply #135 on:** May 28, 2023, 04:35 PM »

Quote from: festal on May 28, 2023, 04:21 PM

@Cheese does festool grinder work with 5" wheels or only 4-1/2?

Haha, you gotta be kidding me Festool...

In Europe they have the AGC 18-125.... so guess what; for 125mm wheels.
On FestoolUSA they have the AGC 18-115... so that is 115mm

Same machine if you ask me

5" is ofcourse 127mm. I have no clue if you guys get 2mm less than what your wheels are sold as or that we get 2mm more

festal · « **Reply #136 on:** May 28, 2023, 04:41 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on May 28, 2023, 04:34 PM

Quote from: festal on May 28, 2023, 04:21 PM
@Cheese does festool grinder work with 5" wheels or only 4-1/2?

Yup...check out this post for purchasing proper 5" guards.

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/ask-festool/does-the-north-american-agc-18-ship-with-a-5-guard-or-a-4-12-guard/msg694048/#msg694048

Perfect. Thank you. i guess i'll be getting festool grinder lol after i figure out the model numbers

Coen · « **Reply #137 on:** May 28, 2023, 04:58 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on May 28, 2023, 04:34 PM

Quote from: festal on May 28, 2023, 04:21 PM
@Cheese does festool grinder work with 5" wheels or only 4-1/2?

Yup...check out this post for purchasing proper 5" guards.

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/ask-festool/does-the-north-american-agc-18-ship-with-a-5-guard-or-a-4-12-guard/msg694048/#msg694048

Lol, I should have not ignored the warning "there was a new post ..." warning.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #138 on:** May 28, 2023, 05:41 PM »

Quote from: festal on May 28, 2023, 03:08 PM

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 02:34 PM
Quote from: tsmi243 on May 28, 2023, 02:00 PM
Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 12:47 PM

Tighten the miter bar with the hard stop against the grinder face
Using gage blocks, set the fence to the final dimension (40mm in this case), plus 0.5mm shim, loosen the miter bar screws

I get it now- it's not there for the actual cut. It's just a 3rd hand for setting the fence. That's a really good system.

How does that machine do on mild steel?

The grinder is great on steel also. The disk is pretty well done, needs to be replaced which is the downside since it involves peeling it of and then cleaning adhesive using lacquer thinner. PITA.

Side note, did lacquer thinner get "improved" recently? My most recent gallon smells different.

RMW
One more question lol. How close to the wheel is the base of the jig? Hard to tell in the video but it’s not touching the wheel?
Do you have any drawings and measurements of the jig?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cheese nailed it.

No drawings, everything was made up on the fl. The stock is 1/4" by 4", the 12" disk can't handle anything much wider. Length is based on the table depth plus another 20mm or so. Slots start around 25mm in from the disk.

RMW

rvieceli · « **Reply #139 on:** May 28, 2023, 06:31 PM »

Before anyone asks, the reason the 12 inch sanding disk won’t handle more than 4-5.5 inches or so is control. Since the disk is spinning rather quickly, rotating around the arbor. On one side of the arbor the rotation is up away from the table. On the other side it rotates into the table. The rotation away from the table wants to pull the workpiece up as well. On the other side the rotation pins the workpiece to the table and makes it easier to control the interface with the sander and the piece.

That’s why you would see big disk sanders in pattern shops because of the increased workpiece size. Not uncommon to see 20 and 30 inch disks.

I’m running two 12s one for metal and one for wood. By I rarely work with bigger pieces.

These disk sanders come up fairly frequently on Facebook marketplace, they seem to have fallen out of favor for people using the belt ones instead.

If you have the space and the extra budget, I’d suggest at least a 20 in you want work with 6-9.5 inch stuff.

Ron

festal · « **Reply #140 on:** May 28, 2023, 06:55 PM »

ha i actually knew that lol

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #141 on:** May 28, 2023, 07:10 PM »

Quote from: rvieceli on May 28, 2023, 06:31 PM

Before anyone asks, the reason the 12 inch sanding disk won’t handle more than 4-5.5 inches or so is control. Since the disk is spinning rather quickly, rotating around the arbor. On one side of the arbor the rotation is up away from the table. On the other side it rotates into the table. The rotation away from the table wants to pull the workpiece up as well. On the other side the rotation pins the workpiece to the table and makes it easier to control the interface with the sander and the piece.

That’s why you would see big disk sanders in pattern shops because of the increased workpiece size. Not uncommon to see 20 and 30 inch disks.

I’m running two 12s one for metal and one for wood. By I rarely work with bigger pieces.

These disk sanders come up fairly frequently on Facebook marketplace, they seem to have fallen out of favor for people using the belt ones instead.

If you have the space and the extra budget, I’d suggest at least a 20 in you want work with 6-9.5 inch stuff.

Ron

Gets exciting quick if you slip across the center line...

I'd love a larger machine, even a second 12" for a different grit would be awesome. Just realized that, except for perhaps a couple routers, this is my oldest power tool.

RMW

Cheese · « **Reply #142 on:** May 28, 2023, 09:46 PM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on May 28, 2023, 07:10 PM

Gets exciting quick if you slip across the center line...

I'd love a larger machine, even a second 12" for a different grit would be awesome. Just realized that, except for perhaps a couple routers, this is my oldest power tool.

Ya it does get exciting when traveling over the center line...you have a 1"-2" overtravel and then hold on. It gets worse the larger you go because of the moment arm.

I'd also like to have the space where I could have a pair of 12" discs and a pair of 4" x 48" belt sanders. I'd keep different grits on both machines and the process would be so much faster.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #143 on:** May 29, 2023, 12:00 PM »

Just a final thought on this grinder. I recalled that the original purpose of truing up the front edge was more straightforward, quick & dirty 90 & 45 degree true ups.

Here's the finished 40mm by 100mm gage block. The import sets are great but it's nice to not need to stack up several blocks for common sizes like 1.5" & 40mm.

RMW

rvieceli · « **Reply #144 on:** May 29, 2023, 12:11 PM »

Richard I put a sled on mine that runs in the miter slot and has a stop that can be adjusted slightly to get it 90 degrees to the platter.

Ron

Cheese · « **Reply #145 on:** May 30, 2023, 09:25 AM »

Quote from: Coen on May 28, 2023, 04:35 PM

Haha, you gotta be kidding me Festool...

In Europe they have the AGC 18-125.... so guess what; for 125mm wheels.
On FestoolUSA they have the AGC 18-115... so that is 115mm

Same machine if you ask me

5" is ofcourse 127mm. I have no clue if you guys get 2mm less than what your wheels are sold as or that we get 2mm more

I purchased this US 576824 AGC 18-125 EB RA grinder but now realize it came with 115 mm guards. So @Coen do the AGC 18-125 grinders in Europe come with 125 mm or 115 mm guards?

Coen · « **Reply #146 on:** May 30, 2023, 09:47 AM »

125 as far as I know. My brother has one.

115 is exotic size here. It's all 125 or 230

Cheese · « **Reply #147 on:** May 30, 2023, 11:51 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on May 25, 2023, 10:10 PM

I received 3 Scotch-Brite™ 36 grit discs today. I tried out the glass fiber backed version which has a molded in 5/8-11 screw thread. It's very nice and very solid however, it is also very aggressive. That's not a big deal for steel items that will be powder coated, but it may be an issue for stainless issues left naked or for aluminum substrates. I'd like to see this item offered in a 60-80 grit version.

(Attachment Link)

All of these discs are 36 grit, 2 with the TN designation (Tinnerman nut) and one with the molded in 5/8-11 screw threads. The differences between the discs is they are manufactured from either Aluminum Oxide or Silicon Carbide abrasives.

The non-Tinnerman nut disc was initially my favorite because there is no tangential run-out of the disc. The Tinnerman nut version produces a tangential runout because of the way it's manufactured. There is a pricing difference of 50 cents between the different styles which could be an issue if thousands of these discs were used per year...think automotive body shops.

The molded thread version is really nice, it glides along the surface and it would be my go-to disc. I plan on trying the Tinnerman nut version tomorrow and see how that goes. I expect the Tinnerman nut version to produce a weird machining pattern because of its constantly changing depth dimension. These photos may help.

In order of viewing...the fiberglass backer version with molded in 5/8"-11 threads, the TN versions which obviously have a serious offset...we'll find out how that affects the performance.

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

I know I earlier expressed some doubt with the way these discs would function because they do not align perpendicular to the grinder shaft axis. Happy to report I could not feel any unusual vibration or notice any aberration in the grind surface patterns. This disc performed exactly like the non-Tinnerman nut version and they are about 50 cents cheaper...could be a big deal for large quantity users.

I also noticed that these 3M Scotch-Brite discs put very little heat into stainless. That was a surprise. I used them at #1 speed on an AGC which is 4500 RPM. It enhanced battery life and produced a nice clean surface with little heat.

They are also very resistant to loading up. I used them to remove PL 400 and Dow Corning Silicone applied to stainless steel. They removed the residue with no drama...easy peasy. Maybe it was the lower RPM that made the difference because the stuff didn't melt and spread itself over the entire surface.

I'm very happy with their performance, just wish they made something in higher than a 36 grit compound. Think 60-80 grit...

rvieceli · « **Reply #148 on:** June 03, 2023, 12:42 PM »

@Cheese did you get those hook and loop 3M scotchbrite disks? Had a chance to use them yet? Curious about how they perform. Thanks Ron

Cheese · « **Reply #149 on:** June 03, 2023, 01:06 PM »

Quote from: rvieceli on June 03, 2023, 12:42 PM

@Cheese did you get those hook and loop 3M scotchbrite disks? Had a chance to use them yet? Curious about how they perform. Thanks Ron

Hey Ron, I received the Scotch-Brite discs, I'm just waiting for the back-up pad to arrive.

I tried placing a disc on the AGC grinder which lasted for about 5 seconds before the disc released itself and sailed under some lilac bushes.

I'm hoping the pad arrives today, if not, I just may dig out the RAS and see how that goes just to get a feeling of the kind of finish these discs will leave. The small area that was subjected to 5 seconds of the medium disc, produced a real nice blended surface.

Cheese · « **Reply #150 on:** June 07, 2023, 02:07 PM »

Quote from: rvieceli on June 03, 2023, 12:42 PM

@Cheese did you get those hook and loop 3M scotchbrite disks? Had a chance to use them yet? Curious about how they perform. Thanks Ron

Hey Ron @rvieceli I finally received the backing pad. Before I received the 3M backing Pad for the AGC, I tried using the Scotch-Brite™ Precision Surface Conditioning Discs on the RAS 115. Initially they held fine until the RAS was removed from the surface, at that point the RPM's increased and the discs would usually jettison themselves from the sander.

I really like the Surface Conditioning Discs as they impart a nice uniform finish to the metal. They aren't nearly as aggressive as the Scotch-Brite™ Clean & Strip discs.
The Scotch-Brite™ Clean & Strip discs work well for striping paint, coatings, adhesive or mill scale and rust. They don't load-up but they do leave a very slight surface texture. It would be best to then paint the surface (powder coating would probably be ideal) or if you want a more decorative finish, further refine the surface using the Scotch-Brite™Precision Surface Conditioning Discs.

Here's a RAS Scotch-Brite™ pad with an aluminum round placed on top and a Scotch-Brite™ Precision Surface Conditioning Disc with the same aluminum round. Quite a difference in stiffness.

A sample of the 5 grits available, extra course, course, medium, fine & very fine.

Here's the 3M backing pad. It comes with 3 different sized nuts for 10 mm, 14 mm or 5/8-11 threads. The plastic piece fills in the middle of the pad if the discs have 5/8" diameter center holes.

Here's a comparison of the hook & loop between the 3M pad and the RAS pad...quite significant.

The Precision Conditioning Disc and a comparison to the Clean & Strip Disc.

rvieceli · « **Reply #151 on:** June 07, 2023, 05:33 PM »

@Cheese thanks for the info. I have tried the XT Pro disk before and just ordered another to try again. Personally I love 3M scotchbrite stuff and believe that you are just throwing money away if you buy anything other than 3M rolocs.

I’m not sure I feel the same way about the larger RA grinder disks. They cost 3-4times more than the imports I have been using but don’t last 3-4 times longer. The do last longer and do a great job but a perhaps too high a premium.

I’ll give them another shot with this new order. I really need something for heavy duty removal and thr precision disks may be too refined for my process.

Ron

Cheese · « **Reply #152 on:** June 19, 2023, 02:15 PM »

I recently ran across these two 3M White Papers on Cubitron™ II materials. Pretty interesting read...

It all started as I wanted to purchase some new 6" x 48" belts and I noticed that 3M pricing ranged from $14 to $44 for the same size Cubitron belt...Why?

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1310315O/effects-of-pressure-on-performance-of-abrasive-belts-white-paper.pdf

One paper gets into the differences between crushed ceramic grain materials and Precision Shaped Grain (PSG) ceramic materials and the differences in abrasive life and the amount of heat that's put into the substrate.
I do know that when using the Scotch-Brite™ Precision Surface Conditioning Discs with a PSG coating, the stainless doesn't get nearly as hot as it normally would. I'd typically work an area of the SST item and then move on to an entirely different area to allow the first area to cool down before returning to the first area to complete the job. The difference is quite noticeable.

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1381348O/advancements-in-abrasive-grain-white-paper.pdf

The other paper gives a history of abrasives that goes back to the use of shark skin as an abrasive material. It also gets into the difference in shapes between crushed ceramics & PSG ceramics.

squall_line · « **Reply #153 on:** June 20, 2023, 12:16 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on June 19, 2023, 02:15 PM

I recently ran across these two 3M White Papers on Cubitron™ II materials. Pretty interesting read...

This is amazing information!

It also goes a long way towards disproving the whole "it's just marketing gibberish" theory that competitors or others may try to throw around when attempting to discredit 3M products.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #154 on:** June 20, 2023, 02:35 PM »

I was using the Festool edge sanding rig this morning. Festool Rubin was slow so I tried some Cubitron II. This stuff.

I thoroughly mark the surfaces to be sanded with a very soft graphite pencil so I know when sanding is finished and in this case when the angle of the edge sanding rig is off.

I was using 120 grit Rubin so went with 180 Cubitron knowing it is more aggressive and leaves a courser surface that al ox abrasives. It took only one pass to eliminate the pencil marks. I changed to 220 grit Cubitron and it also only needed one pass, and the surface is still courser than what the 120 grit Rubin was leaving.

Cheese · « **Reply #155 on:** June 20, 2023, 03:28 PM »

So, trying to understand the price difference in 3M Cubitron abrasive belts was an interesting and very educational process. A rabbit hole worth falling into.

From one of the 3M White Papers,

"UNDERSTANDING BELT AND APPLICATION PRESSURE"

"Combining the right belt with the right application pressure is essential to reaching the optimal breakdown point of an abrasive. The wrong variable in either of these fields can lead to suboptimal results evident on the workpiece and the used belt. Using either excessive pressure or insufficient pressure during grinding can have effects on the performance of an abrasive and the materials it’s grinding."

3M varies the "bond strength" (my nomenclature, not 3M's, they just refer to belt numbers) for use with the various grinding pressures that can be attained. So a 947A belt is for low to medium pressure, 784F for medium pressure and 984F for high pressure. All the belts are coated with Cubitron™ II ceramic particles but the price point for the same sized belt goes from $14 to $24 to $44. The higher the intended pressure the higher the belt price. Non-Cubitron belts for woodworking only, which use Aluminum Oxide particles, are in the $9-$10 range.

But here's the kicker, the 6" x 48" belt used on common stationary sanders like this

cannot, by it's design, generate a high enough pressure to breakdown the abrasive particles. 3M refers to this type of sander as "Slack of Belt Sander". Without the proper amount of pressure, the belt will glaze over and the belt life will be short lived. This is a great example of not needing to spend $44 for the most expensive...highest tech belt that 3M makes. A $14 belt for low pressure use on this style machine is actually a better choice and will give a longer life than the more expensive ones.

None of the issues I'm talking about really apply when sanding/grinding wood substrates, for that any GOOD belt will do, but these are issues when grinding metals, stone, ceramics or glass.

Here's a material chart and a belt selection chart. They go hand-in-hand with this brochure in identifying the various belts needed for various pieces of equipment.

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/926870O/3m-industrial-products-for-metalworking-catalog-hi-res-pdf.pdf

Mini Me · « **Reply #156 on:** June 20, 2023, 09:52 PM »

I note the belt speed specification in one of the tables and wonder how many variable speed linishers are sold to the hobbyist sector of the market. I made my own machine which has speed control but I doubt many others have speed control and like myself even know of its importance. A rabbit hole indeed and thanks for your efforts in the rabbit hole.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #157 on:** June 24, 2023, 05:55 PM »

@Cheese you sidetracked my usual habit of scanning mostly through a post then dashing off a half-baked comment and moving on. I actually had to read the info you referenced and I'm still not certain I understand which belt to use for AL. I did get far enough into the maze to figure out that 3M doesn't make 12" Cubitron disks, which brought me to a temporary halt. I need to delve back through it again. Thanks for providing the context.

I'm down to my last couple of disks and the one on the machine is ready to be replaced. They use a particularly nasty PSA that necessitates scraping off the disk surface and scrubbing it with lacquer thinner, it's enough of a PITA that I'll run a disk well beyond the point it should be replaced.

RMW

Cheese · « **Reply #158 on:** June 24, 2023, 11:57 PM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on June 24, 2023, 05:55 PM

I'm down to my last couple of disks and the one on the machine is ready to be replaced. They use a particularly nasty PSA that necessitates scraping off the disk surface and scrubbing it with lacquer thinner, it's enough of a PITA that I'll run a disk well beyond the point it should be replaced.

I hear you, I've had just the opposite problem, The previously purchased non 3M 12" sanding discs were initially slightly cupped and thus, after some time, prematurely released themselves from the platen sanding surface. This meant that every time I used the sander, I would have to push the cupped sanding disc to the platten or risk that the sanding disc would destroy itself once it was turned on. What a nuisance.

Actually 3M does offer large discs up to 36" in diameter which makes sense as Baldor, Baileigh & Kalamazoo offer large disc stationary
grinders. I've recently ordered and received 12" sanding discs and will get back to you with the grits and the part numbers. It's confusing as the number of sanding products that 3M offers is incredible and difficult if not impossible to track. Add in the the fact that you want to purchase a single item rather than a box of 12 each and the purchasing task is daunting.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #159 on:** June 25, 2023, 06:11 AM »

Needed to lop off the heads of some old dogs (they refused to learn new tricks...) and the grinder jig came in handy again. The beheading:

The 20mm section was 18mm under the head, after the bandsaw cut the target was 16mm finished length. The little angle is 1.5", so the setup used a 1.5" gage block + 16mm gage block: (It's the last rodeo for this disk)

I'm still a little surprised at how easy & accurate this jig is, the results were bang on 16mm fresh off the sander, ready for lapping on the surface plate.

Finished dogs with a M8 countersink.

Lots more aluminum chips were flying around the shop yesterday, but that's another story. I did take the plunge and replace the disk; I wish I could figure out where I got these as they have lasted really well.

RMW

EDIT: after a little sleuthing I did manage to find the same sanding disks.

Now all I have to do is justify another $45 in abrasives I "need" to reach the free shipping level, and I'll have a lifetime supply of disks/addition to the estate sale inventory. Or find a similar USA made zirconia disk and see if they hold up as well. I'm inclined to go with the proven alternative.

@rvieceli another "buying supplies" quandary.

RMW

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #160 on:** June 25, 2023, 08:08 AM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on June 24, 2023, 05:55 PM

I'm down to my last couple of disks and the one on the machine is ready to be replaced. They use a particularly nasty PSA that necessitates scraping off the disk surface and scrubbing it with lacquer thinner, it's enough of a PITA that I'll run a disk well beyond the point it should be replaced.

RMW

There's a little body shop trick that I learned back in the early 90's to mitigate that problem.
Of course, you have to go through the PITA to get the platen clean first, but hopefully it will be the last time.
You simply stick the new abrasive disc to your shirt, pull it off, and re-stick it (in a different place) then apply it to your machine's platen. The fibers and dust from your shirt will interfere with the "over-bonding" that most PSA discs experience. It won't make it so bad that it won't stick properly, but it will come off much easier the next time. If your shirt is sweaty, stick the disc to a cotton rag, stretched out on the bench top. Sweat is too much.
I do this with the 8" geared orbital sanders that I use for leveling solid surface seems. Ingersol-Rand 328b. The bigger problem with them is that the platen is not metal, therefore harder to clean. It's an aluminum backer with a dense foam padding and some kind of plastic skin? PVC maybe? so cleaning it with solvent takes a lot of care, which is why I avoid it like the plague. The shirt fibers do the trick.

@Cheese do you have a part number for that 3M disc that fits the RAS?

Cheese · « **Reply #161 on:** June 25, 2023, 10:30 AM »

Here's the disc that I mentioned that was cupped, it adheres initially but after 4-5 minutes it starts to release from the platen. You can see that it's not really been used a lot.

So I finally purchased a couple of Cubitron discs in 60 & 80 grit. I may also purchase one in 120 grit...we'll see how these work.

This next part is for you @Richard/RMW ...for 12" discs 3M strangely produces a limited assortment. For general woodworking they produce the 348D series which uses aluminum oxide grit. The other series is 777F which uses an aluminum oxide & ceramic matrix, and is known as Cubitron. Cubitron II is also aluminum oxide & ceramic however it is a Precision Shaped Grain (PSG) product and oddly not available in large 12" diameter discs.

Cubitron & Cubitron II can both be used on stainless and produce a reduced level of heat when used on SST. Cubitron produces less heat through a coating while Cubitron II produces less heat because of the PSG grains. Here's an example of Cubitron vs Cubitron II products.

And finally here are the 3M 12" disc numbers for both 348D & 777F. Also here's the vendor I purchased them through because they are offered in single quantities.

https://www.rshughes.com/p/3M-348D-88903-PSA-Disc-12-In-60-Medium-Aluminum-Oxide/051144_88903/

https://www.rshughes.com/p/3M-Cubitron-777F-88871-PSA-Disc-12-In-60-Medium-Ceramic/051144_88871/

Cheese · « **Reply #162 on:** June 25, 2023, 11:22 AM »

Quote from: Crazyraceguy on June 25, 2023, 08:08 AM

@Cheese do you have a part number for that 3M disc that fits the RAS?

Just so that you're aware @Crazyraceguy there is a considerable difference between the hook & loop profile of the RAS pad versus the 3M pad. Which means that the Scotch-Brite disc can be attached to the RAS but it's not a solid connection. You have to be careful because the Scotch-Brite disc can jettison itself at maximum RAS speed. Here's a comparison between the RAS pad & the 3M pad and the part numbers of the Scotch-Brite discs I purchased.

rvieceli · « **Reply #163 on:** June 25, 2023, 12:00 PM »

A sometimes good source for 3M abrasives locally is an auto parts store that caters to body shops. They don’t usually have everything and usually not 12 inch disks. But my local one will sell one sheet or one roloc if you want try something or open a box you thought was half full to find it empty.

Ron

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #164 on:** June 25, 2023, 05:51 PM »

Thanks @Cheese that's what I was looking for. Seems like the 88656 backing pad is the one I need.
Festool's hook and loop is quite different from the rest of the brands, so compatibility issues might be solved by this. The main thing is that it can get me into 5" paper, in which I have far more variety of grits, plus the Scotch-Brite.

Cheese · « **Reply #165 on:** June 25, 2023, 06:56 PM »

No @Crazyraceguy you don’t want that pad, it’s a hard backer pad for Cubitron grinding discs. Let me get back to you later tonight after I’m done preparing dinner. Chicken tacos with tomatillo/poblano sauce.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #166 on:** June 25, 2023, 08:05 PM »

@Cheese thanks for the info and links. I couldn't find those disks when I search thru the 3M PDF catalog.

RMW

Cheese · « **Reply #167 on:** June 26, 2023, 12:00 AM »

Quote from: Cheese on June 25, 2023, 06:56 PM

No @Crazyraceguy you don’t want that pad, it’s a hard backer pad for Cubitron grinding discs. Let me get back to you later tonight after I’m done preparing dinner. Chicken tacos with tomatillo/poblano sauce.

If I remember correctly, the RAS has a M14 thread, so that's fact number one.

Secondly the RAS is 115 mm while the 3M discs are 125 mm so that's fact number two.

The 3M pad needed for the Scotch-Brite Precision Surface Conditioniong Discs is 3M p/n 89871 which is 125 mm in diameter and comes with nuts that will fit M10, M14 & 5/8-11 threads. It looks like this.

The 88656 pad you referred to looks like this. It's a back-up pad used on Cubitron fiber discs.

I guess you have some options but you need to decide which options are amenable to you.

Unfortunately the 3M pad will not fit within the RAS without removing the RAS guard/vacuum housing surround or modifying the pad and the 3M discs.
I'd start with ordering a couple of 3M Scotch-Brite discs, attaching them to the current RAS pad and see if that meets your needs. And then go from. there.

Cheese · « **Reply #168 on:** June 26, 2023, 12:05 AM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on June 25, 2023, 08:05 PM

@Cheese thanks for the info and links. I couldn't find those disks when I search thru the 3M PDF catalog.

RMW

So you're good to go? Mother mining can be very confusing at times.

Cheese · « **Reply #169 on:** June 26, 2023, 12:47 AM »

@Crazyraceguy here's some supporting evidence, the 125 mm 3M pad placed on the RAS 115. The pad overhangs the guard and yet it is still not centered as can be seen when looking at the alignment of the center of the pad and the RAS attachment spindle.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #170 on:** June 26, 2023, 04:45 AM »

Quote from: Cheese on June 26, 2023, 12:05 AM

Quote from: Richard/RMW on June 25, 2023, 08:05 PM
@Cheese thanks for the info and links. I couldn't find those disks when I search thru the 3M PDF catalog.

RMW

So you're good to go? Mother mining can be very confusing at times.

Yep, appreciate your guidance. I'll add the Cubitron to a future order and see if it's 3X as good as the zirconia disks. It'll be interesting to see if the heat reduction applies to AL and mild steel.

RMW

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #171 on:** June 26, 2023, 08:59 AM »

Quote from: Cheese on June 26, 2023, 12:47 AM

@Crazyraceguy here's some supporting evidence, the 125 mm 3M pad placed on the RAS 115. The pad overhangs the guard and yet it is still not centered as can be seen when looking at the alignment of the center of the pad and the RAS attachment spindle.

(Attachment Link)

Thanks so much @Cheese I had it wrong. What I was looking for was a backing pad with regular (Velcro style) hooks that fits 5" discs.

From the pics, It looks like that pad is too "flat", not enough off-set to work with the RAS? Maybe I could make a spindle adapter of sorts? An M14 internal thread and use the more common 5/8-11 outside. I'll have to measure the depth of the RAS pad to figure out the overall length.

What would be ideal is an arbor thing that would allow flap discs.

Cheese · « **Reply #172 on:** June 26, 2023, 10:28 AM »

Quote from: Crazyraceguy on June 26, 2023, 08:59 AM

From the pics, It looks like that pad is too "flat", not enough off-set to work with the RAS? Maybe I could make a spindle adapter of sorts? An M14 internal thread and use the more common 5/8-11 outside. I'll have to measure the depth of the RAS pad to figure out the overall length.

What would be ideal is an arbor thing that would allow flap discs.

The M14 internal x 5/8-11 external is a pretty common adapter, used on wet tools so there's usually a small coolant hole through the center.

I'll take a couple of side view photos showing the 3M pad placed on the RAS. I'm assuming you want to retain the stock RAS dust collection guard & brushes?

Cheese · « **Reply #173 on:** June 26, 2023, 12:39 PM »

Hey @Crazyraceguy here are some interesting photos for the RAS.

I don't know if you're aware of it but Festool does offer a pad that you can attach 4-1/2 sanding/grinding discs to, 485298.

Here's a side view of the RAS pad on the left & the 3M pad on the right. There is an 18 mm height difference between them so an adapter may work, it just needs to be the correct length.

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #174 on:** June 26, 2023, 04:57 PM »

@Cheese that's great information. Thank you so much.

Cheese · « **Reply #175 on:** June 28, 2023, 11:27 AM »

Quote from: Crazyraceguy on June 26, 2023, 08:59 AM

Thanks so much @Cheese I had it wrong. What I was looking for was a backing pad with regular (Velcro style) hooks that fits 5" discs.

From the pics, It looks like that pad is too "flat", not enough off-set to work with the RAS? Maybe I could make a spindle adapter of sorts? An M14 internal thread and use the more common 5/8-11 outside. I'll have to measure the depth of the RAS pad to figure out the overall length.

What would be ideal is an arbor thing that would allow flap discs.

If you remove the RAS housing, the 3M pad will easily fit on the RAS and for surface conditioning as compared to surface cleaning, that's not a bad option as the material removal will be insignificant.

Take the 3M pad & remove the 5/8-11 nut and install the M14 (black) nut. Attach the 3M pad and you're done.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #176 on:** June 28, 2023, 01:36 PM »

@Cheese is it an optical illusion or do the threads extend above the pad?

RMW

rvieceli · « **Reply #177 on:** June 30, 2023, 12:22 PM »

On the subject of disk sanders, Ameribrade seems to be coming out with a very nice looking albeit expensive piece of kit. Seems well thought out and fitted out for different operations

Here’s a link to the presale page:

https://www.ameribrade.com/hyper-disc-bench-grinder

Ron

Cheese · « **Reply #178 on:** June 30, 2023, 12:50 PM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on June 28, 2023, 01:36 PM

@Cheese is it an optical illusion or do the threads extend above the pad?

(Attachment Link)

RMW

Ya @Richard/RMW the threads do extend above the pad but placing a thick washer between the pad & the arbor would take care of that issue.

Cheese · « **Reply #179 on:** July 01, 2023, 11:28 AM »

I recently received the 3M belts I ordered, an aluminum oxide 36 grit, and a 60 grit & 120 grit Cubitron II. The 36 grit will be for wood use only (probably) while the other 2 will be used on both wood & metals. Here are a few photos of the belts for quick identification purposes.

Aluminum oxide on the top, Cubitron II on the bottom.

Here are the important belt identifiers:
Red = grit
White = grit material
Blue = grit bond strength

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #180 on:** July 01, 2023, 05:55 PM »

It looks like I have it worked out, in a couple of ways.
I got a 5" pad with direct 14mm threading. The height is almost exactly the same, within a mm or 2.
But, because of the diameter difference, it does rub. I'll just make a spacer to keep it from going so deep, easy. I didn't recall seeing it in the description of the pad, but it came with 50 pieces of 100 grit abrasive and the little 1/4" shank arbor/adaptor came with it too.

I also found a flange mounting arbor that is direct threaded, converting to 5/8-11. The two flanges and nuts, plus the pin-spanner, were separate. With this I will be able to use flap wheels, grinding wheels, or even cup wheels (wire)

$43 for all of it.

Cheese · « **Reply #181 on:** July 02, 2023, 12:49 AM »

So the Million $ question is ...does that work with the standard RAS dust collection shroud? And what discs are you planning to use with that back-up pad? Surface conditioning discs (Scotch-Brite) or surface removal discs such as Cubitron II?

What I've found out is that making things work with different components is one level, but making things work with different components while still retaining the dust collection capabilities is another level completely.

I embrace the first level because functionally it's a prudent position and prior to 10 years ago that wasn't even a consideration. But the second level is really the meat on the bones. It's the Dali Lama equivalent to "you will receive total consciousness".

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #182 on:** July 02, 2023, 07:13 AM »

No, it's not going to work with the brush. Any increase in diameter will take that out of the picture immediately. I have never really embraced the dust collection aspect of the RAS in the first place. The brush takes the "feel" out of it. I generally use the RAS pretty aggressively, with coarse abrasive, as a smoothing/blending tool. To use it "flat" is nearly impossible with the brush in place, so I removed it, long ago. Then when I found out that it is virtually irreplaceable? Why bother.
Also, when used in a tipped fashion, the dust collection is pretty ineffective anyway, and once you get the offset of a flap-wheel in the mix, the brush is going to be so far away as to be useless.
I'm just looking to increase the effectiveness of the machine by adding to the variety of discs it can use.
The original Festool backing pad has the proprietary hooks, which is a limitation on it's own, this gets me into the more common hook and loop.
The thread adapting arbor and flanges was just a bonus that came up in the investigation.

Cheese · « **Reply #183 on:** August 23, 2023, 12:58 PM »

Just noticed that 3M has released a new Cubitron™ II formulation with a re-shaped PSG geometry. It's only available in belt form and only in 36 grit. 3M refers to the new belt product as 984FX Pro.

https://www.rshughes.com/search.html?q=mmmnineeightfourfxpro&utm_source=Klaviyo&utm_medium=campaign&utm_campaign=2023-08-22-3M-Cubitron-II-984FX-Pro-Cloth-Belt&utm_id=01H8CZN0FA0YGRKVGAAAH6DQPY&_kx=WRFltw0xaHZqF_BsAzSPy0hnIgIE0u3_pK6iBxOLY0o%3D.WjJzt2

Conventional crushed ceramic...Cubitron™

PSG (precision-shaped grain) ceramic...Cubitron™ II

New modified PSG ceramic...Cubitron™ II 984FX

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #184 on:** September 23, 2023, 10:31 AM »

I've been fiddling with a Pat Warner style router sled/fence setup to make milling down precise aluminum blanks easier. Some years ago I bought Pat's PDF's, at the time he also offered one-on-one tutoring in his shop. I regret not making the trip out to meet him personally, it would have been a hoot. Now I'm stumbling through the learning process somewhat blindly.

Pat's setup used a fence that fully encapsulated the bit and a sled that rode along the fence with the material extending slightly past the sled's edge. The main idea is there is always 100% contact between the fence and sled, and the material is secured to the sled in a death grip.

This version had its maiden run today, the edge finish left a lot to be desired, but with a couple of minutes of clean up the result was bang-on parallel.

Next up is a micro-adjuster and precision stop so I can dial in the fence offset for different bits. Any recommendations on this would be appreciated. My inclination is to have an adjustable stop that gets set so there is a 10mm offset to the bit and locked in. Then the fence is adjusted out as far as necessary for whatever rough thickness I'm starting with, moving back ~1mm for each cut until it reaches the fixed stop.

Unfortunately

Ophelia is preventing us from doing any yard work... guess I'll just have to spend the weekend in the shop.

Thanks,

RMW