Author Topic: Blum Metabox vs poplar dovetailed drawers (Read 3852 times)

Packard · « **on:** January 14, 2023, 10:19 AM »

With the price of lumber lately, I checked the relative cost of the Blum Metabox vs. my building drawer boxes using 3/4” x 3-1/2” poplar with through dovetails.

From a strictly economic standpoint:

Building the box from wood with dovetails:

4” nominal (3-1/2” actual) x 3/4” poplar currently costs $20.98 per 8’ board or $0.2185 per linear inch (Lowes’ pricing).

Building 12” wide drawers for base cabinets requires 2 pieces 12” and two pieces 22”. (I am leaving out the bottom panel cost now, as both systems will require bottom panels.)

That comes to 68” or $14.86 total.
3/4 travel drawer slides in powder coat costs $7.48/set.

That (poplar + dovetails) comes to $22.34.

I never timed myself building these drawers. There is a setup and the time to cut the dovetails, glue up plus applying the finish.

Blum Metabox construction:

I can buy Blum 3-1/2” Metabox for $16.47 from Cabinet Parts (even cheaper from Woodworkers’ Express). The front fixing brackets (pair) cost $3.16.

So that comes to $19.63. To which I have to add the rear panel only (the front fixing brackets allow for directly mounting the drawer front to the Metabox). The rear panel (also from Lowes, also poplar) cost $2.63.

That total (Metabox) comes to $22.26 vs $22.34

To both, I would have to add the bottom panel and the drawer front.

The advantages to the Blum system (since the cost is very comparable):

Much quicker to build. The front fixing brackets allow side to side and up/down adjustment (which sounds very appealing). No need to apply finish. (I would use melamine clad particle board for the bottoms and backs.

The advantages to the poplar/dovetail build:

A long history of durability. It appeals to my sense of craftsmanship.

I am leaning towards trying the Metaboxes. Am I missing anything?

https://www.google.com/search?q=blum+metabox&client=firefox-b-1-m&tbm=vid&ei=ysbCY7WcLM2eptQPxbqD4AY&start=10&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwi1qcvurMf8AhVNj4kEHUXdAGwQ8NMDegQIDxAW&biw=1261&bih=921&dpr=2#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:e4b2a59e,vid:IflSFICKFxA

Yardbird · « **Reply #1 on:** January 14, 2023, 10:56 AM »

I would find a cheaper place to buy lumber.

cdconey · « **Reply #2 on:** January 14, 2023, 11:01 AM »

I calculate the Lowes Poplar BF price to around $7.88/BF ( 2.66 BF ). I am buying 4/4 poplar at just under $3/BF, soft maple for ~ $3.50/BF, Hard Maple for ~ $5.20/BF.

I agree with @Yardbird, find another place to buy lumber.

tsmi243 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 14, 2023, 11:13 AM »

You've pretty much got it. I can't comment on material cost, but the labor savings is awesome. I'm not a pro, but I'm doing my kitchen in Metabox right now, and it's *almost* as easy as it looks on paper.

1. Carcasses- standard 32mm. Any system will work, I used LR32.

2. Drawer boxes- incredibly fast, once you've re-read the instructions 4-5 times. If you make a jig for the holes underneath, you'll fly through this. I made a bracket for my DDF40, similar to a Domiplate, that let me drill both holes in a single plunge, referencing the corner. Stupid fast and easy. I used 1/2" Baltic for the bottoms, bought before the..... events.... happened over there, and jacked the price up. It's not as easy to clean as melamine bottoms would be, but I like the two tone look when I open the drawer.

3. Drawer fronts- the fiddly part. You really DO need to measure things the way the instructions show, using the cabinet dimensions minus the reveal. Otherwise, it's a ton of math to come up with the locations for the 10mm holes for the brackets.

The brackets also have left-right adjustment space, and no reference point for "center", so it doesn't matter how accurate your 10mm holes are, once you install the fronts, they'll need adjusting- You have to adjust the spacing, to make the drawer rails parallel to each other- then ALSO adjust the lateral position of the front, to match the reveal. It's the same adjustment screws for both, so you have to do them simultaneously. Which is tedious, but not rocket science.

Adjusting up/down is easy though, the Pozidrive cam works really well.

tjbnwi · « **Reply #4 on:** January 14, 2023, 11:25 AM »

We use 5/8" hardmaple for our drawer boxes. I do own a dedicated machine for the dovetails, a grooving blade for the bottom groove and a head for the shaper for the rear notch.

Hardmaple cost me ~$3.82 BDF. Takes about 10 minutes to fabricate a 4 sided drawer, 25 minutes to fabricate a U shaped drawer.

Blum Metabox vs poplar dovetailed drawers

Tom

kevinculle · « **Reply #5 on:** January 14, 2023, 12:10 PM »

Dovetailed drawer joints were necessary when drawers ran on plain wooden cleats and the forces imposed on the front corner joints while opening a heavily loaded drawer with no wax on the sliding surface was very stressful. Nowadays in an application with ball bearing metal slides, the drawer joints see minimal loading and stress. Dovetails are a throwback to a past era for style and craftsmanship chops...basic construction with glued corner joints using biscuits, dominoes, whatever is quite structurally adequate.

MaineShop · « **Reply #6 on:** January 14, 2023, 12:18 PM »

I have used the blum meta box system on a couple jobs. They are good for what they are but I am not sure I would view them as acceptable on a clients kitchen. I mean jobs have all different ranges of price point but the meta box is a realtively inexpensive slide. They are not going to have the same longevity of like a tandem slide or even a side mount ball bearing slide. We have used them a lot in laundry rooms and other auxiliary storage areas. We tend to use 5/8 maple with dovetails or 5/8 baltic birch for our kitchen boxes with blum undermounts. Sometimes we step up the legra box system.

The meta box is really fast if you buy Blum's universal jig for the system. It also gives a very clean looking and durable box. The slide is the weak point of the system.

my two cents

Adam

simnick · « **Reply #7 on:** January 14, 2023, 04:11 PM »

What about Legrabox? Anyone have experience with that?

tsmi243 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 14, 2023, 04:47 PM »

Quote from: MaineShop on January 14, 2023, 12:18 PM

They are not going to have the same longevity of like a tandem slide or even a side mount ball bearing slide.

Not sure that's accurate- the reason I went with them is because the 28yr old cabinets I removed from this kitchen were Blum's predecessor to the Metabox. The rails are still perfectly usable. Not one single failure, not even a loose roller. Even the melamine parts were still totally functional, just grimy.

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #9 on:** January 14, 2023, 05:37 PM »

If it's a client job, I would give them the choice, with a price difference to reflect the time difference.
I'm also in agreement with the others on the vendor situation. Your typical big box stores may indeed be less costly for most things, but hardwood is not generally one of those things.

Lincoln · « **Reply #10 on:** January 15, 2023, 12:48 AM »

I'm surprised Blum still offer Metabox, they are very basic and not really aligned with their other products. Their 'Legrabox' are a much, much nicer drawer, with a high quality runner. They are more expensive, of course, and there's an extra step or two in construction.

twistsol1 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 15, 2023, 08:44 AM »

Quote from: kevinculle on January 14, 2023, 12:10 PM

Dovetailed drawer joints were necessary when drawers ran on plain wooden cleats and the forces imposed on the front corner joints while opening a heavily loaded drawer with no wax on the sliding surface was very stressful. Nowadays in an application with ball bearing metal slides, the drawer joints see minimal loading and stress. Dovetails are a throwback to a past era for style and craftsmanship chops...basic construction with glued corner joints using biscuits, dominoes, whatever is quite structurally adequate.

Hardwood dovetailed drawers will better survive toddlers and teenagers.

The kitchen kitchen in our current house came with Metabox drawers throughout and while I've never built with them, they are really nice for day to day use. The elimination of finishing time would be major selling point as I no longer have a dedicated finishing room and need to move cars and put up a spray booth in the garage.

afish · « **Reply #12 on:** January 25, 2023, 09:15 AM »

I switched to metal box similar to legrabox style back when BB became 200 plus a sheet or impossible to get. I dont think I would ever go back at this point. However, I build almost all frameless more modern style cabinets. So, I use white cabinet liner ply for bottoms and back. zero finishing is huge for me. I just edgeband the top of the back piece and assemble. soft close slides are built in the only thing is they dont have is the tip on feature if you want no handles. but the legrabox is about 5x more. im not a fan of the meta line.

Packard · « **Reply #13 on:** January 25, 2023, 12:32 PM »

Thanks for the replies.

I am in the process of refacing my kitchen cabinets. The kitchen was remodeled probably in the 1990s with honey oak raised panel doors. I did not want to paint over the oak, so all new doors and drawer faces. I’m about half way done now.

I replaced the 1/2” overlay Amerock hinges with 1” overlay Blum soft close. This hides an addition 1” of face frame and gives a more modern look.

I was not planning on replacing the drawer boxes or slides, but I had one that was in bad shape and I made it with 3/4” poplar and through dovetails. I reused the old slides.

Replacing the slides is a job better suited to someone with long thin arms. 60 years of weight lifting puts me at a disadvantage in that department. I am still undecided. I probably won’t decide until the kitchen is fully refaced. I can swap out the drawer fronts at a later date.

Thanks for the replies.

Packard

afish · « **Reply #14 on:** January 25, 2023, 03:02 PM »

I will also say I would be a lot more tempted to use blum legrabox if I was only doing one drawer per cabinet like a typical lower. I tend to build all my lowers with drawers only and each typically have 3 drawers so to use blum legra would add about 500 bucks per cabinet just for drawer hardware. Thats to steep for me personally. one drawer per I could swallow but not 3...

tsmi243 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 25, 2023, 04:08 PM »

Quote from: afish on January 25, 2023, 03:02 PM

I will also say I would be a lot more tempted to use blum legrabox if I was only doing one drawer per cabinet like a typical lower. I tend to build all my lowers with drawers only and each typically have 3 drawers so to use blum legra would add about 500 bucks per cabinet just for drawer hardware. Thats to steep for me personally. one drawer per I could swallow but not 3...

Mine are also non-stop drawers..... Metabox it is! Might do a Legra for a minibar or something, they DO look cool.

xedos · « **Reply #16 on:** March 14, 2023, 12:51 PM »

Quote from: simnick on January 14, 2023, 04:11 PM

What about Legrabox? Anyone have experience with that?

Yep - very nice, but.................

it's over priced and more importantly, they are a total P.I.T.A to assemble because they need a very wide notch in the bottom board on two sides. This xtra step means it's out for us. The time just isn't worth it when other square , thin sided drawer systems are available that are just as good and don’t require the xtra machining.

Oldwood · « **Reply #17 on:** March 14, 2023, 02:29 PM »

I think the real advantage of the box systems is only realised if you have a CNC or/and a 32 mm multi head drill.

The metabox are the bottom of the box system line but require less accurate drilling.

If you can drill very accurately the drawer fronts just snap into place and require almost no adjustments.

We used the Legrabox, Intrabox for most kitchens when we had a CNC and 32 mm construction drill but I am looking at doing a kitchen now that I have sold off all the machinery and I will use Movento guides and wood boxes.

xedos · « **Reply #18 on:** March 15, 2023, 08:24 AM »

Quote from: Oldwood on March 14, 2023, 02:29 PM

I think the real advantage of the box systems is only realised if you have a CNC or/and a 32 mm multi head drill.

This just isn't accurate.

Box systems offer lots of advantages, even for the jobber or handyman. We can send out an installer/servicer with two small boxes of sides and slides and a 1/4 sheet of melamine - and he can make up any size drawer from 9" to 48" in width on the spot and install it in less than an hour with a tracksaw, drill/driver and a tape measure. If we know the width ahead of time the drawer bottom and backer can be made up ahead of the call in even less time. With another small box of parts he could make an interior rollout to add to a pantry or base cabinet. The seasoned ones aren't drilling the bottoms for screw holes either - they use type 17 self drilling screws and a steady hand along with a keen eye.

Try doing either of those onsite with dovetailed drawers within an hour or without big specialized equipment.

Now, if you have CNC , or point to point or any other type of big stationary equipment - you'll see more advantages in time and efficiency. But, that's universally true with any type of production. Drawer systems, dovetailed boxes, food,

Packard · « **Reply #19 on:** March 15, 2023, 09:38 AM »

What is the perception to the consumer? Is it upmarket or down? Is it perceived as cheap or dear?

How is the durability? Certainly better than 5/8” vinyl clad particle board and staples, but as good as 3/4” through dovetails?

I will have to figure out the cost differential. With the current cost of lumber + finish + good slides vs Legrabox & slides.

I took a quick peek at the pricing on the Legrabox + slide and it appears to me to be about $100.00 (looking a CabinetParts, though I usually buy from A & H Turf).

woodferret · « **Reply #20 on:** March 15, 2023, 10:06 AM »

No love for Merivobox?

Coen · « **Reply #21 on:** March 15, 2023, 03:19 PM »

Quote from: woodferret on March 15, 2023, 10:06 AM

No love for Merivobox?

Oh those look nice. Finally vertical sides! I gotta dream a bit about those before I look up the prices.

Oldwood · « **Reply #22 on:** March 15, 2023, 10:24 PM »

Quote from: xedos on March 15, 2023, 08:24 AM

Quote from: Oldwood on March 14, 2023, 02:29 PM
I think the real advantage of the box systems is only realised if you have a CNC or/and a 32 mm multi head drill.

This just isn't accurate.

Box systems offer lots of advantages, even for the jobber or handyman. We can send out an installer/servicer with two small boxes of sides and slides and a 1/4 sheet of melamine - and he can make up any size drawer from 9" to 48" in width on the spot and install it in less than an hour with a tracksaw, drill/driver and a tape measure. If we know the width ahead of time the drawer bottom and backer can be made up ahead of the call in even less time. With another small box of parts he could make an interior rollout to add to a pantry or base cabinet. The seasoned ones aren't drilling the bottoms for screw holes either - they use type 17 self drilling screws and a steady hand along with a keen eye.

Try doing either of those onsite with dovetailed drawers within an hour or without big specialized equipment.

Now, if you have CNC , or point to point or any other type of big stationary equipment - you'll see more advantages in time and efficiency. But, that's universally true with any type of production. Drawer systems, dovetailed boxes, food,

How do you drill your drawer fronts for the front fixing bracket and gallery rail? Do you mount the cabinet member by hand?

Building the boxes is dead easy but drilling the holes in the gables and fronts so every front just snaps into place with little or no adjustment is huge when there are 30 or 40 drawers in the kitchen.

YMMV
Gerry

woodferret · « **Reply #23 on:** March 16, 2023, 07:29 AM »

Quote from: Oldwood on March 14, 2023, 02:29 PM

If you can drill very accurately the drawer fronts just snap into place and require almost no adjustments.

We used the Legrabox, Intrabox for most kitchens when we had a CNC and 32 mm construction drill but I am looking at doing a kitchen now that I have sold off all the machinery and I will use Movento guides and wood boxes.

No luck using ZML.0040.01 Universal Drilling Template?

xedos · « **Reply #24 on:** March 16, 2023, 10:08 AM »

Quote from: Packard on March 15, 2023, 09:38 AM

What is the perception to the consumer? Is it upmarket or down? Is it perceived as cheap or dear?

Depends on the box system and the customer. Metabox is entry level and 3/4 extension. 3/4 extension is going to put off a lot of people especially in a kitchen. In a closet , many can deal with it. For the crowd that doesn't want to hear anything (rightly or wrongly) other than "real wood" - a box system isn't going to fly no matter how good and wonderful it is. You may educate / convince them that a box sys isn't evil, but is it really worth your time ? Some of the best, most expensive cabinets form Europe have metal box systems, so does IKEA at the other end of the spectrum. It all boils down to the spec of the cabinet builder and the system he choose to use.

Quote

How is the durability? Certainly better than 5/8” vinyl clad particle board and staples, but as good as 3/4” through dovetails?

It's quite durable. I've got some kitchens with box systems that are 30+ years old.

Quote

I will have to figure out the cost differential. With the current cost of lumber + finish + good slides vs Legrabox & slides.

Let me save you some trouble and dissuade you of the notion of using Legrabox. It will be one of the most expensive options out there. And you'll have the notching issue to deal with which is a pain.

Quote

I took a quick peek at the pricing on the Legrabox + slide and it appears to me to be about $100.00 (looking a CabinetParts, though I usually buy from A & H Turf).

see Legrabox comments above.

I'd look at Tandembox:
https://www.woodworkerexpress.com/tandembox-drawer-profile/

or Grass's Nova Pro:
https://www.woodworkerexpress.com/grass-nova-pro-scala-metal-drawer-box-system/

these are solid, European made systems that are cheaper than Legrabox - they just don't have the same thin profile that's all the rage now. Tandembox use the exact same slides as Legra - but doesn't require the ridiculous notch to use.

Packard · « **Reply #25 on:** March 16, 2023, 10:48 AM »

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Oldwood · « **Reply #26 on:** March 16, 2023, 11:39 AM »

Quote from: woodferret on March 16, 2023, 07:29 AM

Quote from: Oldwood on March 14, 2023, 02:29 PM
If you can drill very accurately the drawer fronts just snap into place and require almost no adjustments.

We used the Legrabox, Intrabox for most kitchens when we had a CNC and 32 mm construction drill but I am looking at doing a kitchen now that I have sold off all the machinery and I will use Movento guides and wood boxes.

No luck using ZML.0040.01 Universal Drilling Template?

I think those work ok, but it is the combination of drilling the fronts and the gables for the runners accurately that makes the system work so well.

I am not suggesting you can not use the box systems without a cnc and/or 32 mm construction drill. I am just suggesting you do not get the most from the system that way.

They are designed for production equipment.

Cheese · « **Reply #27 on:** March 16, 2023, 12:38 PM »

Quote from: Packard on March 15, 2023, 09:38 AM

What is the perception to the consumer? Is it upmarket or down? Is it perceived as cheap or dear?

Tough question to answer...beauty is always in the eyes of the beholder.

Here are some box system drawers that may have you lifting your eyebrows. None of these photos leave me to believe the owners are just 5 minutes from being "street people."

The first 5 photos are from a $70,000 Hacker kitchen remodel.

This next one is from a $95,000 Hacker upgrade.

And finally these last photos are the Puustelli cabinets in Andrew Zimmern's recent kitchen remodel. He also chose to use all Gaggenau appliances so you be the judge. Half empty...or half full?

rvieceli · « **Reply #28 on:** March 16, 2023, 12:55 PM »

Bottom line on most of this stuff is that is very difficult to build someone that you don’t know their perfect kitchen. So in general build something that you find good for you and that you want to live with.

I think redoing kitchens and baths be is high on the list for many home buyers.

Given my space constraints, my is pretty perfect for ME but I have no illusions that many other people would find it acceptable.

Ron

xedos · « **Reply #29 on:** March 16, 2023, 04:45 PM »

Quote

I am not suggesting you can not use the box systems without a cnc and/or 32 mm construction drill. I am just suggesting you do not get the most from the system that way.

They are designed for production equipment.

While they are designed with production in mind , so what ? Some systems don't even require drilling at all in order for assembly. Your statement is about as off base as saying one needs CNC or 32mm drill in order to use 35mm cup hinges.

Your observation that big automated (or semi) machinery is better for production is basically true across all manufacturing endeavors. A dovetail router jig is gonna run circles around a guy cutting dovetails by hand. A dedicated , stationary dovetailing machine will pound a router jig into the ground, and an automated version is even better than that.

So, by extension - we can only get the most from dovetail drawers by having big automated equipment, right ?

Manufacturing is almost always served best by large automated processes, to suggest that one shouldn't consider a particular product because it is more efficiently made with automated equipment (that you don't have) is plain ridiculous. You seem to be missing the entire point of packard's question in general and how it relates to a drawer box system.

You need to ask yourself whether it's reasonable for packard to build a box from a system quicker than a dovetail box and for close to the same cost. I think we can reasonable assume he doesn't have an automated system for either type. And I'm willing to be most people are going to make 4 cuts on a sheet of melamine and add some screws to the box system faster than they can knock out 4 corners on a dovetail jig + groove them + cut the bottom and then glue and assemble the lot. The more boxes made the more time is saved with a system - and that's just with a calculator, tablesaw, and a screwgun.

The cost is a bit harder to dope out. Can you get 5/8" or 3/4" solid wood for free ? Gonna be hard to beat that against a $20-$40 pair of metal sides. How much do you value your time ? If you're just a putzer that has more time than dosh, it doesn't really matter how long it takes to build a drawer. If you're a professional billing at $50, $100, $500/hr........ saving 30min. a drawer can add up quick.

Oldwood · « **Reply #30 on:** March 16, 2023, 08:08 PM »

"to suggest that one shouldn't consider a particular product because it is more efficiently made with automated equipment (that you don't have) is plain ridiculous."

That is not what I said.

I believe Without the drilling capability Movento guides with wood boxes are more efficient.

Of course you are free to disagree

xedos · « **Reply #31 on:** April 15, 2023, 08:40 PM »

Quote from: Oldwood on March 16, 2023, 08:08 PM

That is not what I said.

I believe Without the drilling capability Movento guides with wood boxes are more efficient.

Of course you are free to disagree

Well, ya kinda did………buttressed by your comment on “the wood boxes are more efficient “

So yea, I disagree and think you’re plain mistaken that wood drawers are more efficient than a metal box system if you’re doing both with minimal tooling.

Might be able to concede that you could assemble a wooden box more efficiently IF you bought pre-finished material , and butt jointed the corners with glue and nails and then nailed on the bottoms too. But I’d still wager some money I could find someone faster with a metal box system.

If you have to machine any kind of joint : dowel, domino, drawer lock , finger joint and especially dovetail - you’re gonna lose the race every single time with typical hand tools powered or not.

morts10n · « **Reply #32 on:** April 16, 2023, 11:22 AM »

Quick comment: 3/4" drawersides are completely uncommon and unnecessary.