Contact Festool USA about the warranty issues using any kind of third party between a vac and the Festool. cyclones such as the Dust Deputy, can create huge amounts of static electricity which can destroy the circuit boards within the tool.

Has anyone on the FOG experienced the destruction of their extractor due to the use of a Dust Deputy?

Yes, there were a couple of threads about it just a week or two ago.

Per our warranty...

Festool
does not condone nor support the use of any non-Festool engineered, designed, and manufactured accessories or consumables with Festool products. Use of any non-Festool products may affect performance or void the warranty. Festool is not responsible for any damages or losses incurred and user assumes all risk and responsibility with non-Festool derived products.

There have been numerous reports recently of damage to the circuit board of CTs due to static discharge presumably caused by the Ultimate Dust Deputy product.

Paul, Oneida has a fix that includes metal tape that runs between the inlet to the outlet of the cyclone and down to the base. You are supposed to wrap it around the cyclone fittings and then install the hoses.  You are also supposed to find a ground.  I don't remember them telling you exactly how.

Anyway, in my eyes its a crappy fix and something worthy of Makita. LOL.

I formed copper sheet to the OD of the cyclone fittings and attached wire  between them.  I ran the wire down to the inlet where I have a connector and a wire that goes into the CT and connects to ground on the bus where the power cord connects. This gets me back to house ground.

I fired up the CT with the extra grounds before I had made the final ground connection and there was so much static on the new ground system you would not want to touch anything I added.  As soon as I added the ground wire that brought all this back to house ground it settled down and worked great.

Here is my only comments...  I really like having the cyclone on the CT. Works GREAT.

But the Festool motor controller is obviously pretty sensitive.  My CT is probably 6 or 7 years old but only had about 2 hours use on it when I took the controller out. I would be afraid to take it out of my shop not knowing what the ground conditions are elsewhere. It really needs a good earth ground.

Right now I have the motor plugged directly to the bus so I have to plug/unplug the CT to make it work.  My new controller should be here next week. Hoping I don't have any issues in the future.

Okay, you're standing there sanding a board. (I'm thinking out loud.)  The dust is sucked through the tool, through the hose and eventually into the vacuum.  As the dust passes through the hose, it creates a static charge.  Add something like a plastic cyclone, and that creates additional area to create static charges.  The operator is not grounded.  The vacuum is.  In high humidity, some of the static will be more easily dissipated.  In dry air, less so. 

All electricity, static or otherwise, seeks a path to ground with the least resistance.  In this scenario, the path with the least resistance is within the vacuum. 

When building high voltage insulators, we need a large distance between the conductor and whatever we want to insulate it from because stray voltages can track across dust and create a short.  So, dust is a known conductor.  And dust is traveling through the hose.  If the static buildup isn't quickly dissipated, the charge could be sufficient enough to mess with sensitive circuitry, such as within the vacuum.

I think it's a gamble to trust that any static buildup will be dissipated through the air, no matter how humid.  Ultimately, any static accumulating on the hose, or plastic cyclone, that is not dissipated through the air will have to be dissipated through the vacuum, unless the operator conducts to ground.

That being the case, I wondered why Festool sells non-antistatic hoses to connect to their vacuums.  I'm an electrician, not an electronics expert or scientist, so maybe there's something I'm missing.  But for me, I will only use antistatic hoses between the tool and the vac.
   

Thanks everyone for all the input here, I love using cyclones so I've got some things to test out.

So what happens if there is no damp floor, or no human ground, or no other means for discharge?

Contrary to popular belief, electricity does not specifically flow to ground. It travels from any higher voltage to a lower voltage (the electrons actually flow the opposite, but that is because Ben Franklin got a negative sign backward, and we choose not to correct it today). It also doesn't take the path of least resistance. It takes all paths, but proportional to their resistance.

Even in the absence of a direct discharge path to a lower voltage, the static charge will still dissipate into the air. The rate of discharge is lower than the rate of charge, so that is why static will build up. However, once the source of the charging is removed, the charge will begin to bleed off.

The risk to electronic equipment is when the charge builds to a high enough level to break down whatever insulation value is otherwise keeping it from moving; such as a spark. MOS (CMOS) circuitry is especially susceptible to it, because when the voltage on a MOS transistor exceeds the insulation, it literally punches a hole through the gate insulation and it becomes conductive.

Your example of high voltage insulators is kind of similar. It isn't that the dirt is conductive. It is that once an arc has occurred, it leaves a conductive trace behind that allows more current to flow past the insulator.

I was working on a job once when one of the roofers came up to me and told me that the temporary steel safety cable outside on the roof was live.  I knew that wasn't possible because the steel cable was threaded through angle iron that was welded to building steel.  But I went out to check anyway and to show him the cable was not live.  I took my Fluke meter with me.

As I walked across the rubber roof membrane (the roof was not finished), I realized there was a potential for static buildup.  The soles on my shoes did not allow for static buildup as well as the soles of the roofer's shoes.  I touched the safety cable and got a mild shock.  He touched it and you could both see and hear it.  And he jumped.  The static buildup in him jumped immediately to a ground source.  And it would do the same while using a dust collector, if it had the chance before dissipating.

Electrons take the path of least resistance, and yes, there may be many paths.  Seeing a lightning strike shows that clearly.  The charge is looking to find it's way to ground and will take any path to get there, as quickly and easily as it can.  But it's kind of like a highway, if the roads are packed, you take another route, e.g the path of least resistance.

I've done a few lightning protection jobs.  Most people think the purpose of lightning protection on a structure is to attract a lightning strike.  But in fact the actual purpose is to dissipate the charge and reduce the positive and negative charge differential in the air.  To do that you place sharp pointy spears all around the perimeter of the top of the structure and bond them to a known ground with a conductor sufficient to handle the potential load.  If that "highway" gets overloaded, you could have a problem.

The unknown variable with static buildup is how much of a charge is building?  While you're sanding away, you can't feel the buildup.  And there's nothing to measure the buildup.  Typically, a person only knows there's a buildup when the it suddenly discharges, or when their hair stands on end. 

I was a foreman on another job when I arrived at work one morning to see my boss throw a smoking telephone out the trailer door.  He screamed as he did that, obviously shocked.  I walked into the trailer and he said he was talking on the phone (land line) when it started smoking.  Next thing I know the iron worker foreman in the trailer next door comes over and says his doorknob is live.    I took my Fluke over and sure enough, the doorknob to trailer's steel stairs read over 50v. The stairs were free standing and now on damp ground from rain the night before.  I looked to see if the trailer was grounded.  It was.  I was scratching my head.  Then one of our guys came out of the building and said some of the temp lights were out, some were dim and some were bright. 

I went on the hunt to find out what was going on.  In the process I also learned the skip (manlift) wasn't working and found the controls were fried.  In the end, we finally agreed the building must have taken a lightning strike the night before.  Lightning protection was not yet installed.  The charge took whatever path it found and damaged a few things along its way to ground, one of them was one leg of the 3 phase temporary transformer.

I've seen some pretty crazy things in my career and I've learned that electrons are unpredictable in an uncontrolled environment.  While they ultimately make their way towards their final destination, the exact path cannot be predicted.  So you do your best to direct them along the way and help them discharge as quickly as possible so they don't do any damage, and try not to allow yourself, the tool you're using, the dust hose or the vac components to become capacitors.  And that's what tells me it's best to make sure your expensive dust vac is protected from that stray charge trying to jump through sensitive circuitry. 

Maybe the Festool anti fatigue mats should be anti static as well with a binding strap.

thx
Lambeater

Maybe

electricity does some weird things.  I wired up a GFCI outlet and light in the bottom of an elevator shaft a friday afternoon, tested it both light and outlet tripped properly. Over the weekend the pipe cover let go, and the city sewer system flooded the underground garage and elevator shaft. besides the horrendous smell you could see the light shining up through the raw sewage.

Weird indeed, that GFCI maker has some explaining to do

could festool not put all these fancy sensitive parts in a fariday cage and protect them that way

just curious- would the steel powder coated dd cone solve all these  problems? someone said something about it? sorry i am electrically handicap- i dont follow any of this

I've done a few lightning protection jobs.  Most people think the purpose of lightning protection on a structure is to attract a lightning strike.  But in fact the actual purpose is to dissipate the charge and reduce the positive and negative charge differential in the air.  To do that you place sharp pointy spears all around the perimeter of the top of the structure and bond them to a known ground with a conductor sufficient to handle the potential load.  If that "highway" gets overloaded, you could have a problem.

It's amazing how often one hears the opposite...and I'm not even an electrician!

There was a recent episode of This Old House where the contractor described lightning rods as something to attract the lightning strike and channel it to ground.  The contractor and Kevin explained that the lightning would be channelled through all the copper cables and lead to ground.  It made me want to cry.....the amount of energy in a lightning strike would melt there little copper cables into copper puddles long before dissipating all that energy!

So..... after reading all these dissertations... can someone give an electrically -challenged individual a "grounding for dummies" version of what to actually do with a plastic and/or metallic DustDeputy connected to a Festool vac? Diagrams , pictures, part lists would be welcomed.

Unless you have some pretty sophisticated testing equipment, you can't know the exact path the static charge is taking from tool to ground.  There seems to be a reasonable possibility that some of the failed boards in CT vacs was caused by static charge buildup arcing through the board.  If you want to take all the precautionary measures you can to prevent this from happening, you need to think along the lines of those who work with PC boards.  They typically work on anti-static floor mats and wear anti-static wrist straps.  Using this in the tool shop would help dissipate the static buildup near the tool and not allow the operator to act as a capacitor (something that holds an electrical charge).

If you have anti-static hoses from the tool to the DD and from the DD to the vac, you're off to a good start.  This is what Oneida says is included with the Ultimate DD:
Kit Includes:
- Industrial Static Dissipative, 9 Gallon (34L) container
- Dust Bagger, plastic bag hold-down system. No messy dumping - allows easy removal of dust in plastic bags.
- Static dissipating cyclone separator
- 6 feet of static dissipating hose with static dissipating cuffs

Although they say the cyclone is static dissipating, they include metallic tape and instructions that tell you to create a path from port to port and to one of the metal bolts that secures the cyclone to the collection bin. 
You can see the ground tail coming off the bolt at the base of the cone.

So maybe the cyclone isn't all that static dissipating. And that may also be true of the hose that comes with it.

You can use copper tape to do the same thing as in the photo above.  Then make a ground wire with something like an alligator clip on one end and a fork or ring terminal on the other end.  The third from left is a fork terminal, the fourth is a ring terminal:


The ring or fork will attach to the bolt at the base of the cyclone (as in the pic above).  The alligator clip should be attached to a known ground.

Now you should be dissipating static charges created from the tool to the cyclone and, to some extent, from the hose going to the vacuum.  That should reduce a substantial portion of the static created.

Caveats -
1. Festool does not recommend third party accessories in between their tools and their vacs.   My guess is they only test their products with their accessories.  And they feel comfortable enough to warranty their tools as they do when used in conjunction with their accessories.

2.  Static charges that are allowed to build up will eventually arc across the first thing they see as a path to ground.  My OHM meter registers zero when tested across a Festool anti-static hose.  But my meter only pushes 9 volts.  Rubbing your feet across the carpet can create 10,000 volts.  I do not know the inner workings of the CT or how, or if, an anti-static hose works to protect the vac's circuitry.  Maybe that wasn't even a thought when they designed it.   According to their website:
Festool's Antistatic hose design helps you work cleaner by preventing dust from accumulating on the exterior of the hose. It helps you work more safely by preventing static discharge or shocks. And you'll work more efficiently with a system that prevents clogging due to particulate buildup inside the hose.
They don't specifically say the hose protects your tools.  But some have said after adding the DD, they started getting shocks at the tool.  So you know the discharge path is being interrupted by the DD.

The DD does work great.  But when you have to empty it, it can be a dusty mess.  I got mine to keep my $35 "HEPA" shop vac filter from clogging and losing suction.  It works for that purpose but I seem to lose some of the suction through the DD.  So who wins?  But when it comes to the CT vac, bags cost $7@.  They can last a long time if you're sanding.  If you're planing or routing, you could probably do well with the LongLife bag, which costs about the same as the UDD and doesn't void the warranty.  So with all that, is the UDD really the best choice for Festool dust collectors?

I agree with Rick on this one.. My recent experience with the non anti-static hose makes me think it's better. In a nutshell don't try harder to route the static to the CT.  Just try to dissapate to ground the static that does make it.

And regarding Oneida... after recent issues and working with their support department I give them zero credibility for knowing what they are doing or caring to fix it properly. Their "fix" for the UDD speaks volumes.

Quote from: Rick Christopherson on May 14, 2013, 03:09 PM

Quote from: JuliMor on May 14, 2013, 02:09 PM

If you have anti-static hoses from the tool to the DD and from the DD to the vac, you're off to a good start. 

To the contrary, using anti-static hoses with a non-antistatic break in the middle (i.e a Dust Deputy) will actually increase the likelihood of damaging the other components of the system (i.e. the tool or vac).

True, but I wasn't suggesting that.  If you read on you would see that I suggested creating a path across the plastic cone with conductive tape, as in the picture I posted.  I also suggested grounding the bolt, like in the picture.

As I mentioned in my post, the tape is very conductive, but the small surface area of contact with a hose does not result in a low conductivity connection with an antistatic hose. The conductivity of the hose is very low, until you take into account its entire surface area. But that tape is only touching a very small part of the surface.

The same is true with the Earth. The conductivity of dirt is almost zero, but when you take the total volume of the earth into account, that zero becomes very conductive. An infinite number of parallel paths through a high resistance body will result in a relatively small total resistance. As an electrician, you know that a single ground rod will not likely give you a low resistance connection to earth-ground. Technically, even 2 rods won't do that, but that is the limit of the NEC requirement on ground rods. It takes a very large surface area to make a reasonable connection to a non-conductive object.

I did.  They sent me the cheap tape solution which I didn't use. They act like its no big deal that I had to buy a new $145 controller.

I also sent an email to customer service about 10 days ago. No response.

The way I look at it the UDD is a turnkey solution that comes at a premium price of twice the cost of standard DD.

You can use copper tape to do the same thing as in the photo above. 

I was thinking this:


Regardless, the bottom line is how important is it to the owner of a Festool vac to catch dust and chips before it reaches the vacuum bag?  For me, as I stated earlier, I won't connect the DD to the CT vac.  It's a great system as is.  Each owner has to decide for himself or herself what's most important to them and accept any consequences that may happen from ignoring Festool's recommendations.

I did.  They sent me the cheap tape solution which I didn't use. They act like its no big deal that I had to buy a new $145 controller.

I also sent an email to customer service about 10 days ago. No response.

The way I look at it the UDD is a turnkey solution that comes at a premium price of twice the cost of standard DD.

Sorry to hear that happened.  Though it doesn't say much about Oneida, does it? 

that copper tape looks pretty cool.

I wonder as you wrap the tape up and overlap like you would when taping a splice.  Would the adhesive interfere with the good grounding contact?

A few of our customers have reported static problems while using the Dust Deputy.   Oneida is offering an upgraded grounding kit which includes a
more-conductive hose and supplemental grounding components free of charge for those customers.  This should eliminate any static problems on vacuums with static conductive inlets which are properly connected to a functional house ground.

Couple notes:
Not all vacuums have a static-conductive inlet.  Please ensure that your vacuum has an anti-static inlet and if it does not you must provide an alternate direct earth ground path from your hose and connections. 

Some people have reported that their static problems were caused by an improperly connected house ground.  Please ensure you are properly connected to a house ground per your vacuum’s instructions.

Currently all Oneida Ultimate Dust Deputies from the factory have static dissipative components and these supplemental grounding measures to ensure a completely grounded system. 


Please click here for more info and to request the upgrade kit.


-Jeff
Oneida Air Systems

and supplemental grounding components

Thanks for response. By supplimental grounding components do you mean 3' of foil stick on tape?

If so, I really don't consider this a long term fix as sliding the hoses on and off will sever the tape where its folded over the fitting.

If I come off as disgruntled its because I am.  I just shelled out $150 for a new motor controller last week because of the UDD when it was supposed to be a turn-key solution for the Festool CT vacuums.  So still have a bad taste in my mouth.

Once again I appreciate you taking time to respond here.

Jeff,

From reading online posts, I know that not everyone who uses the DD in conjunction with a Festool CT uses the Ultimate.  Some use the Deluxe DD.  Does Oneida plan on offering the same update for the Deluxe as the Ultimate?

Hey everyone,

I need to weigh in on this. Shane did not say that static electricity had destroyed circuit boards. The word he used was presumably.
I have been in the electrical/electronics industry for the past 25 years and have handled thousands of circuit boards and certainly much more complicated than what is in a Festool dust extractor.
Shane, how many circuit boards are on the festool DE and with what you are expecting to be static electricity, are the boards that are being damaged examined more closely? Or is the board replaced and that's it. I am not about to say categorically that static discharge is not the culprit, but not to jump in and say it is either.

Regards,
Dan

Peter, the issue is using any third-party device between a Festool dust extractor and a Festool.

Excessive static electricity generated by the third-party device can and have destroyed circuit boards in the tool and in the Festool dust extractor.

Shane Holland has stated several times on FOG that in cases of static damage resulting from use of the third-party devices the usual warranty might be void.

That is why I wrote the post I wrote as a warning to Festool owners. Of course the policies of Festool UL could well be different. My post only applies to NA Festool owners.

They said they'd ship the upgrade/repair kit right out to me. It's almost two weeks later now and no sign of it. I am not amused with Oneida at this point.

I think the upgrade is coming but is not finalized. They were supposed to send me a draft of the instructions a couple weeks ago but I never did see it.

I think their sign up for upgrade deal was to help calm the storm and not that they were really ready.

I received my UDD upgrade kit today along with detailed instructions.

Jack

Hey Shane,
Well that is a fair comment. I did get this upgrade kit when I bought the DD but didn't use it. I am not 100% convinced that installing a piece of foil tape will do the trick for the whole case of the DD. I think there is a bit more to it than that. Incidentally the hose that they supplied I have been meaning to change it but I don't think Festool makes one that size. Thanks for the comment. What Oneida should have done was made the whole thing of metal.

Regards,
Dan

Dan,

I think the Oneida has all but admitted there's a problem since they are offering a free upgrade kit to help with static. The reason I said presumably was because that was the common denominator among the damaged circuit boards. They were all used with a Dust Deputy.

Quote from: jacko9 on June 14, 2013, 10:19 PM

I received my UDD upgrade kit today along with detailed instructions.

Jack

The new one with a hose or just the old original update with tape?

I have the new kit with the black hose, etc.

Jack

i'm a bit struck by this whole thing, could someone maybe explain the reason why they use a cyclone on a CT vac?
If it's to save bags then a longlife bag is cheaper and more practical, if it's to keep the airflow high i could understand even though i can only suspect this addition makes the CT work harder because creating this cyclone action must take quite a bit of energy.
The vacs are designed to function perfectly without, so is it not a bit like fixing a problem that doesn't exist, by adding a real problem (static build up)?

I don't have a long life bag so can't compare.  But static issues aside (which no one planned on when they purchased it) the Ultimate Dust Deputy  cost less than the long life bag, holds a lot more material and if you use the disposable bags its easier and faster to change than a bag in the vac.

The performance for me is better than my original bag because the performance doesn't drop off as the bag fills.

Course if the static issue continues there is no reason to consider one. But I am hoping Oneida has that fixed !

I'm assuming that the Oneida Fix will work but as mentioned above, the long life bag exposes you to the very dust your trying so hard to avoid when you have to empty that bag.

With the UDD, I just throw away the plastic bad dust and all.

Jack

Hey guys,

What if you were to ground the cyclone as good as you can with copper tape and so on, and yet, use non-antistatic hoses to the tool and to the vac.

Wouldn't that be the best bet to avoid any harm to your equipment ?

I'm only one data point but, I installed the free Oneida supplied grounding system on my UDD and I use the system every day on my CT22 with no issues so far and that has been over a year.  I used the UDD on my CT22 for a year before that without the free Oneida supplied kit with no issues.  But since I know how nasty static discharge can be I contacted Oneida and they responded pretty fast with the upgrade.

Jack

I just requested the kit. I will update when it comes and if it works

The kit works for me every day and I use my CT22 as a shop vac as well as hooked up to my Festool Domino, Sanders (5 ea) and to my Leigh Dovetail jig.

Good luck,

Jack

I received the UDD upgrade kit in the mail today. I filled out their online request form on dec 13. I'd say that's pretty darn good considering the holidays, it was free and I didn't even provide them with a receipt. I'm very happy with their service and product. I recommend this to anyone interested in the dust deputy

In all fairness as previously posted this thread has been about damage to the CT's presumably caused by static electricity when used in combination with the Ultimate Dust Deputy - not about tools like the TS-75 being damaged.  That being said, the warranty statement from Festool that Shane posted early in the thread does not differentiate between CT's and other tools.  So, if your tool is damaged (as you ask) by static electricity while using a non Festool product hooked up to it then there is a real chance that the damage would not be covered by the Festool warranty. 

That might seem extreme or unusual to some but it is normal for manufacturers to have exclusions.  They have to.  If I hook up a battery charger to my wife's car incorrectly and do damage I assure you that the damage will not be covered by her GM warranty.

Not trying to be an alarmist, I personally would take the risk and do what you are prescribing to do, but there is a risk.

Peter

I think that this last post misses the point. No manufacturer can cover every possible use of their tools in any warranty statement otherwise it would be 100s of pages long. "...and owners of the TS75 cannot throw their tools off the top of a cliff or use it under water."

Festool have made an honest statement, on this forum as a result of a query from a FOGger, that they do not recommend that a DD be used with their CTs and will not cover static discharge damage. That is perfectly reasonable.

I use a DD connected to my CT and I take the risk. I know that the risk is my responsibility as I have read Festool's statements here on the FOG.

Peter

Loads of people are using non Festool extractors with their Festool tools - I use one of my Numatics with my TS55 and I don't think that anyone has an issue with that. The problem comes with the plastic cyclone extractors, perhaps like the Dust Deputy, that may make static build up more likely. These cyclones are not extractors, they are interceptors that fit between the tool and the extractor. They do not have the continuous earthing that Festool extractors and hoses have built-in which is a weakness.

Peter

  Rick

Peter

Quote from: Peter Parfitt on December 31, 2014, 03:27 PM

Rick

Peter

Oops. It didn't even dawn on me that there were two Peters posting. I was addressing Peter Halle's warranty comments a little farther above.

I guessed it was not me hence the light hearted way I took it.

Happy New Year.

Peter

When I'm winding the operating table up to the ceiling and opening the dome in the thunderstorm so the life-giving lightning can lick around the body on the table, the Master keeps me chained to the floor of the laboratory. I believe this is so that static in the air can drain to ground through me, keeping us all safe. The Master calls it a grounding strap.

Would I be better off with an insulated chain instead?

Use the DD with your vacuum if you want. Plenty of others do and if it fails there is no reason to even mention it. I'll equate to putting different rims and tires on your car.

frankly, oneida could do a better job explaining the EXACT scenarios in which one needs to consider the problem of static buildup when used with a ct and one of their cyclones.  For example, their "product bulletin" https://www.oneida-air.com/blog/ultimate-dust-deputy-product-awareness-bulletin suggests that owners of the UDD go through the process to check using specialized equipment if the static continuity is maintained.  Personally, that suggestion is a bit unrealistic unless you are an electrician with the correct equipment and knowledge.

Festool could also do a better job explaining what their "antistatic" and "non-antistatic" hoses and accessories do in regard to a real world scenario such as this one with the UDD.  The intuitive inclination would be to use a non-antistatic hose to reduce the potential of built up static jumping, but they make no recommendation about what use cases the two different variations offer. 

Additionally, Festool should clarify exactly what "non-antistatic" and "antistatic" mean.  are the "non-antistatic" accessories static dissipating or static conductive?