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Author Topic: tongue and groove flooring  (Read 12916 times)

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Offline sedici

  • Posts: 5
tongue and groove flooring
« on: January 28, 2017, 03:56 PM »
I have to complete a hardwood tongue and groove flooring job in the near future. usually I am able to use a friends 6 head molder for such a thing but not this time. the boards are 11" wide white oak and will not fit through the machine. Once the boards are flat, I have planned to use the 2200 router, available accessories and straight edge attachments to accomplish repeatable finished widths. from what I understand this should be possible. please describe the best setup for this operation. thank you for your advise   

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2017, 07:13 PM »
A: Router table ?

Offline Peter_C

  • Posts: 779
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2017, 08:32 PM »
A: Router table ?
That is how I would do it if I was to work with that wide of a board. If it were my flooring I would rip it narrow so it doesn't warp, nor leave as large of gaps in humidity changes. Then it could be feed thru the molder.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2017, 08:52 PM »
If he's got 11" boards, it's likely the owner wants wide plank flooring and paid a hefty premium for them. 

Ripping them down isn't going to be an option.

I'd mount the 2200 in a router table too, and go to work.  A baby power feeder would make a nice addition to the setup and make life easier while giving more consistent results.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2017, 08:57 PM »
   Personally I find wide , long, heavy (ish) boards difficult to maneuver through a router table. I would just use a bearing guided T & G set on the 2200. That router can handle that. Clamp the boards to a solid bench and go. Actually I have done hand held T & G with the 1400, not on white oak though.

Seth

Offline sedici

  • Posts: 5
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2017, 09:23 PM »
thanks guys for responding. the problem with the shaper is any curve that is usually taken out by a molder will just translate on a shaper. a bend in more narrow board can be straightened when installed but a wide board will be too stiff and will leave a gap.
If I use the festool straight edge for a side, I then can use the fence jig on that finished edge as a guide for the other. does the fence jig open up 11"? and does that plan sound like it would work?

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2017, 09:32 PM »
OK, so you are talking about using the router to cut the board straight? And then put the T & G on?  I would think you would use a track saw or table saw to straight line one side first.

What router fence jig exactly are you referring to.

Seth

Offline sedici

  • Posts: 5
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2017, 10:23 AM »
like you said, long and heavy, 16' long so the table saw may be difficult. The board have been ripped so they are almost straight. Thinking I use the track and router w the tongue or groove bit to take out whatever curve is left to give me one finished straight side.
Then set up the "Edge Guide For Router OF 2200 part# 494680" against finished side to cut the other side.
I'm not sure if this is the best plan considering the short bearing surface of the guide and how much it will be opened up across the board. It may be unstable or difficult to move at a consistent speed. thanks!

Offline WarnerConstCo.

  • Posts: 4078
    • Warner Mill Works
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2017, 11:28 AM »
No matter how hard you try, doing it with routers and the like will never produce consistent width boards. 
 

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2017, 11:37 AM »
3hp router with a big bit like that freehand would scare the beejezeeus outa me.  No way I'd do that hand held.

Should you chose that route, you can always add an aux. fence to the edge guide to give whatever support size you'd like.   You can also get longer rod stock if the FT bars aren't long enough for 11" wide boards.  I think they're 8mm , but I'm sure i saw a post round here recently discussing them.

I don't see how the guide is going to help you out with the straightening though.  Evey t&g bit I've seen has a bearing in it and that's going to follow the board and I don't think that edge guide is going to bend out any curve.

Straightening with the TS and a panther blade along with a long guide rail wouldn't be so bad.  I'd use the jointer with an infeed + outfeed table though.

Is there another shop close by with the large stationary equip. this job really calls for that you can sub out the milling to ?

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6609
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2017, 01:18 PM »
If this were my problem, I'd try straightening 1 board with a track saw & guide, and then check the results with 6'-8' level (or chalk line) to see if that gives you the straightness that you need. I think the straightening process would be more problematic using a router & guide.  [2cents]

Then I'd do as Seth advised and clamp the board down and attack it with the 2200. I've done a lot of T&G in the past but it's always been on narrow lumber. Think 1 1/2", 2 1/4" & 4 1/2" oak, maple and Brazilian cherry, and always using a router table. If you don't want to make the cut in a single pass, you can always use a larger bearing on the bit and complete it in 2 passes.

Then I'd check again with the level & chalk line to see if everything is still within specs, if so... you've established a process, if not... then some detective work needs to be done. [smile]

Offline Linbro

  • Posts: 203
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2017, 01:57 PM »

If I use the festool straight edge for a side, I then can use the fence jig on that finished edge as a guide for the other. does the fence jig open up 11"? and does that plan sound like it would work?

No, if I'm reading it right, that won't work. You won't be able to run the router guide fence on one edge of the board while cutting the other edge. The cutter will be trying to 'dig in', while you're trying to push the fence the opposite way. Won't take much to run astray.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2017, 03:13 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^

And the cutter's guide bearing is going to follow the not milled/jointed side regardless of the router guide registering on the other edge you just cut with the saw.

You've got to start with two square and straight edges (three really) for flooring. There really isn't any way round this requirement.  And they need to be parallel too.

Offline Alan Mack

  • Posts: 25
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2017, 06:49 PM »
Sounds like a floor that I and a colleague did last year. It was using Douglas Fir boards, 4.8m long and 300mm wide. The room was 4.7wide so single board spanning the room. What we did was have the boards machined with a 6mm groove midway on both sides and used slip tenons made of 6mm ply instead of tongues. The grooves were 15mm deep and the ply was 25mm to allow for some slack. To start the first pair of boards were set up on a set of trestles next to each other. Then using a TS55 and guide rails( 2700 and 2x 1400 joined) we ran the saw between them to sawkerf them. The first one went onto the floor, the second one moved over on the trestles and no.3 was placed next to no.2 and saw kerfed and so on. The 5mm less width in the ply tenon allowed for some trimming of the edges. Once or twice a pair of boards would need a couple of cuts to get them tight and we ripped narrower tenons at 20mm or so. Boards were fixed using screws and plugged.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2017, 08:14 PM »
I don't think the plugged look will appeal to many customers on this side of the pond.

I do like your book matching cutting scheme though.  Or , at least that's what I think you were describing.

Offline sedici

  • Posts: 5
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2017, 09:31 PM »
ok thanks everyone for the input.  I realize I'm trying to reinvent the wheel and not very well.  I understand the problem with the bit bearing.  I envisioned a bit without a bearing while using the track.  not sure but thought the 2200 would take a 1/4 shank.  I now also see the problem with the bit direction and apposing sides of the board.  But I'm pretty sure I've seen this done before.

An early plan was to use splines or tenons and groove both sides. face screw have been approved so long the plugs match well.  I will reconsider this plan now that Alan has described his method.  Thanks Alan

This is unconventional at best but still seems that there could be a way to do this well with repeatable consistent results.

I don't have access to a large jointer or another local mill that can handle these widths. I may be able to use a shaper with feed roller
but I'm trying to avoid this as a solution. 

 Have you guys seen the Betterley Straight Line Connector used to connect the guide track? This looks like a must have for anyone who uses multiple tracks.

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2277
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2017, 09:38 PM »
Easiest to use slotting cutters with an edge guide.  2200 works great for this as the weight is an advantage.  Put the track guide on the rods extending from the other side to help hold down securely.

Offline Alan Mack

  • Posts: 25
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2017, 02:14 PM »
Antss, we took care with rotating plugs to match any grain showing, flush cut and then whole floor filled with a mix of Yew and Cherry two pack filler which gave a very close match to the knots. When I say whole floor, I mean the knots. Quite a lot of them shattered when going through the planer. Knots? Aye well, the boards came from the clients own contacts. He's a Forester and chose the trees for the floor. Truth be told they were too knotty for quality flooring, but he chose them. I'm also a Forester and I would have picked finer branched ones or clean stems.

Plug holes cut with the festool wood bits which give a very clean hole as they have a chamfered edge rather than brad points which tend to tear at the edge. Plugs made with a tapered cutter so giving a really tight fit. They really disappear into the floor, so not obvious that its plugged.

And then with the chairs, rugs, dinner table and chairs, you can hardly see the floor let alone the plugs...

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2017, 02:27 PM »
   There must be something I am just not getting about this ........

       Are the boards wide enough to get 11" parallel out of?  Or are they already 11" wide and not straight?

       Do you want to cut them to width with the router?

       It just seems that you would rip them straight and then parallel with track saw and long guide rail. The use 2200 with bearing guided bits to put the T & G on.

      What am I missing here?

       Festool makes a rail that is about 16' 5".  Also the Betterley works great!

Seth

Offline Alan Mack

  • Posts: 25
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2017, 04:36 PM »
If as was the case with our 4.8m boards in a 4.7m room, they dont need to be parallel,they were as it happens but not actually needed as each board was cut to fit with its neighbour. One other floor we had been discussing was to use tapered Scots Pine, (Red Pine I think you call it, P sylvestris). Joining  the boards as before with a ply slip tenon/spline and sawcarving the joints tight. Reversing every second board to account for taper. Obviously would only work for somewhere you could run one board across the room. (probably possible with shorter lengths but that would cause headaches...)

As Seth says, there are longer guide rails so ideally we should have used the 5m one for our DF floor, but we had the 2700 and 1400's already.

Offline sedici

  • Posts: 5
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2017, 08:13 PM »
Hi Seth.

 Sounds like you get it. The boards have been ripped on a band mill to 11". They are not perfectly straight so a TS would take care of that. Then the 2200 for TG.   

I haven't bought the tools discussed yet so wanting the best problem solved approach.

The thing that has been my concern is keeping repeatable finished widths. Once the sides have been straitened and one side routed what is the best approach for setting up the track for the other side for accurate widths?

Will I be using a tape measure to set the track? I could have a machine shop make something to attach to the track that set it to the same distance away from the first finished edge. Do you know a better way or is there something festool makes for this

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 934
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2017, 08:34 PM »
My way would be to use the 55 on a rail to get a straight edge then rout the tongue profile onto that edge.

This way if the routing is not perfect you can trim off and get a second chance.

Then use a set of parallel guides (not the Festool one as it hooks over the ends of the board, use one of the other after market models) to set the board width and cut the second edge. Use the router and fence to cut a groove only in the new side and you are finished.

Because you haven't touched the new edge you can always go over it a second time if required.

The result is that all of the boards are the same width and you can fix any routing errors.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2017, 10:15 PM »
Why the reluctance to sub out the job to a shop that has the machines and capability to make this flooring that you can then just install ?

That has got to be a lot cheaper than an of2200, a ts55, a Vacuum and the accompanying accessories necessary.

It will also free up your time for doing tasks that you already have the capability to do. 

Offline sheperd80

  • Posts: 135
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2017, 10:29 PM »
I think youre intended approach is all wrong, honestly. Setup good infeed and outfeed support for your tablesaw, rip the boards nice and straight (Ive done it with huge material, its not hard with proper support you just have to go slow with oak).
Then use bearing guided t&g bits to do the edges in a handheld router. It'll be work for sure but youll get consistent results.


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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6609
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2017, 10:53 PM »
There must be something I am just not getting about this ........

That'd make two of us...

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2017, 11:23 PM »
Once you have the boards ripped straight and parallel (with a saw) the bearing guided router won't change that. It will just follow the now straight edge on each side. Run the slot cutter (making the groove) along one side and the matching tongue cutter along the other. You don't need anything to guide the router except the bearing that is part of the bit.

Seth


Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 934
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2017, 11:34 PM »
.... the matching tongue cutter along the other. You don't need anything to guide the router except the bearing that is part of the bit.

Seth

The problem with that is that the tongue cutter cuts the full height of the board leaving nothing for the bearing to run against.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2017, 11:44 PM »
.... the matching tongue cutter along the other. You don't need anything to guide the router except the bearing that is part of the bit.

Seth

The problem with that is that the tongue cutter cuts the full height of the board leaving nothing for the bearing to run against.


Must be different styles to some of them then. I have the CMT set. The bearing is between the upper and lower cutter. It rides on the material that is left ..... the tongue.

Seth

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 934
Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2017, 12:16 AM »
 [thumbs up]

Offline Cheese

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Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2017, 09:58 AM »
Here ya go...

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: tongue and groove flooring
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2017, 10:09 AM »
Here ya go...


Yup. that's it.


@sedici   Also It is now clear that you will not have 11" wide boards when you are done. So if you want them all the same width you will need to find the board that needs the most removed in order to straighten it and make it parallel to determine the width for all of them.

Seth

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.