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Author Topic: TKS 80 and Dado set  (Read 6414 times)

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Offline Gary P

  • Posts: 1
TKS 80 and Dado set
« on: November 28, 2020, 04:05 AM »
Hi. Will the new TKS80 table saw be able to take a Freud dado set?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 04:11 AM by Gary P »

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Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7223
TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2020, 05:02 AM »
Nope.

Offline SRSemenza

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  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2020, 12:18 PM »
Hi Gary,

     Welcome to the forum!

       Won't hurt to have it posted again.

Seth

Offline rocky100370

  • Posts: 10
Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2020, 09:18 PM »
Is the US finally getting the TKS80??????????

Offline Alex

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Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2020, 01:56 AM »
Nope.

Offline rocky100370

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Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2020, 06:04 AM »
I think Festool should give us the option of ordering one.

Offline Alex

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Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2020, 11:46 AM »
I think Festool should give us the option of ordering one.

If the US had 220v like Europe it probably wouldn't be a big deal, but now Festool has to redesign the saw with a 110v motor. And then sell it in America as a competitor to SawStop, which they also own.

US buyers have the option to buy the SawStop saws. 

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 623
Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2020, 03:40 PM »
I think Festool should give us the option of ordering one.

If the US had 220v like Europe it probably wouldn't be a big deal, but now Festool has to redesign the saw with a 110v motor. And then sell it in America as a competitor to SawStop, which they also own.

US buyers have the option to buy the SawStop saws.
And they learned a lesson with the kapex.

How was it? fool me once, shame on you...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1238
Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2020, 09:03 PM »
I think Festool should give us the option of ordering one.

If the US had 220v like Europe it probably wouldn't be a big deal, but now Festool has to redesign the saw with a 110v motor. And then sell it in America as a competitor to SawStop, which they also own.

US buyers have the option to buy the SawStop saws.

Festool can sell the 230V model here, once again, we have 220V power.  Mafell sells their table saws as 230V here.  I don't own one, but plenty of wood workers have big table saws that are 220V.

The problem isn't the lack of 220V power in the US (since we have it), the problem is companies like Festool who don't seam to understand we have 220V and are fine with owning 220V tools (and in some cases would prefer it).

Festool over thinks bringing tools to the US, just bring stuff as is.  How much US regs come into play, we probably will never know. I know some folks bring it up, but then you have companies like Mafell that will sell you the german model of the tool, so clearly they have found they can sell stuff here with zero changes.

Offline Alex

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Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2020, 01:56 AM »
Festool over thinks bringing tools to the US, just bring stuff as is.  How much US regs come into play, we probably will never know. I know some folks bring it up, but then you have companies like Mafell that will sell you the german model of the tool, so clearly they have found they can sell stuff here with zero changes.

Mafell sells like 0,0000001% of what Festool sells in the USA. And in Europe.

Mafell has a business model where they don't even want people to know them or buy their tools. Nobody has ever heard of Mafell, except a few nuts like us on these forums.

Selling 220v tools does not work in the USA, and Mafell is the last company you should bring up to prove otherwise.

Offline rocky100370

  • Posts: 10
Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2020, 06:49 AM »
Still makes no sense. At least offer it to buyers. Some of us are 220v ready. Especially since most buyers who have a lot of Festool equipment want to stick with the brand.

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2020, 11:19 AM »
Festool over thinks bringing tools to the US, just bring stuff as is.  How much US regs come into play, we probably will never know. I know some folks bring it up, but then you have companies like Mafell that will sell you the german model of the tool, so clearly they have found they can sell stuff here with zero changes.

Mafell sells like 0,0000001% of what Festool sells in the USA. And in Europe.

Mafell has a business model where they don't even want people to know them or buy their tools. Nobody has ever heard of Mafell, except a few nuts like us on these forums.

Selling 220v tools does not work in the USA, and Mafell is the last company you should bring up to prove otherwise.

Almost no one knows of Festool in the US either.   Yes, they are far more known then Mafell, but it doesn't say much.  Some showing up on this old house is the first that many folks will ever see or hear of them.  Festool has only been in the US officially for like 20 years.

The core point is still, 220V is not a problem.  Unless someone is planning to only use their tools in bedrooms/living rooms only, folks have access to 220plug.  And adding one to a basement/garage if they don't have one is general not an issue.

Further, if someone bought a sawstop saw in the US (the units we have, not the festool), they sell them in 220V for some models. 

220V is not a problem here.  Clearly the problem is Festool thinks as you are that it somehow doesn't exist here.  Festool would have no issue selling 220V Kapex, CTs, etc in the US. 

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2020, 12:00 PM »
Personally, I think it's a lot simpler in case of the TKS 80. They don't want to interfere with it in what is the original "SawStop" market, for now at least.

I have an OT question: If you have a 230V circuit/panel wired professionally in the US, it has two wires considered hot and a ground wire, right? That's were typically 230V household appliances are plugged in, correct?

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2020, 12:12 PM »
Personally, I think it's a lot simpler in case of the TKS 80. They don't want to interfere with it in what is the original "SawStop" market, for now at least.

I have an OT question: If you have a 230V circuit/panel wired professionally in the US, it has two wires considered hot and a ground wire, right? That's were typically 230V household appliances are plugged in, correct?

Kind regards,
Oliver

Yes. There are two wires carrying 110/15/20 volts at 60 cycles that are out of phase with one another, and the neutral. Together they supply about 230 volts (depending on the grid). In the breaker panel the two hot lines are distributed in an alternating pattern so that a circuit breaker can contain two linked breakers connected side by side and gather current from both hot wires.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1238
Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2020, 12:51 PM »


I have an OT question: If you have a 230V circuit/panel wired professionally in the US, it has two wires considered hot and a ground wire, right? That's were typically 230V household appliances are plugged in, correct?


2 Hots, a Neutral and a Ground.    The Neutral and ground our Bonded together at 1 point in the system (typically the main panel).  For 110V supplies you have a hot and the neutral.   Since the neutral is bonded to the ground, it has 0VAC but carries full current the same as the 2 hots, ground is 0VAC 0amps.  On the 220V circuits, the neutral is unused. But ground is still there, the circuit is using 2 of the 110V lines that our out of phase to get the 220V.   Works out the same as pure 230V systems were one side is referenced to ground. Thus why we can plug stuff from Europe directly in.  Unless something has a real problem with 60hz vs 50hz, but most stuff you find is 200-240VAC  50/60Hz.

Generally everything is color coded.   The Hots are Black and Red, Neutral White, ground is Copper or Green.  Use the same wiring for both 110 and 220,  but when you wire up a 220V circuit, you typical wrap the white wire in red tape to help make clear it's 220V.  We also have dual voltage circuits, these have 220 and 110, so all 4 wires to the same plug.  These are common for items like dryers that might have 220V heaters, but controls/motor might be 110V.  These plugs are now common for welders, EV chargers, etc. In some places they are now required in new construction in garages.  They are also handy as you can install one, and then later use them as a place to install a small sub-panel and have 220/110V circuits.    Wire in the US for residential wiring is NM-B,  comes most often in 12-2, 14-2 or 12-3, 14-3  (the later number is the number of power conductors, so you have either a black and white or a black, white, red.  Both have a ground.  If you are building a garage/shop, you typical wire it up with a mix of 110V and 220V plugs, plus some 220/110V plugs to cover all the bases. 

Big saws, welders, air compressors, etc are typically 220V here, and course lots of hardwired in stuff is 220V.  Which is why in the end, tools being 220V really isn't an issue.  Only if you are doing a lot of work within the finish space of a house could it become a challenge, and that is where you would go looking for the dryer plug as it's going to the easiest to access 220plug,

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2020, 01:02 PM »
Thank you very much @Michael Kellough & @DeformedTree !

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Alex

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Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2020, 01:25 PM »
I don't know, I have the feeling there might be more to it both technically and marketing wise.

For instance the difference between 50Hz and 60Hz. All European tools are made for 50 Hz and might not react favourably to 60 Hz. Not every electronic part is universal, and some might even depend on the correct Hz for timing issues. I remember how a few years ago Serbia and I believe Montenegro had a dispute of power distribution over the grit and as a result Serbia disconnected a few electricity plants from the European grit. It had the effect that the 50 Hz went down a minute amount but because electric clocks used the 50 Hz as timing reference, all 220v clocks run a bit slower.

And then there's the American mindset that they don't like things pushed on them by foreigners. We've had a few discussions about it here on the FOG. Festool originally sold all their tools as metric, remember? I am pretty sure they did their marketing research in the USA and got negative responses that their tools weren't imperial. Hence the switch. I think selling 220v tools would be a big step for lots of Americans. Sure, the specialist on this forum here wouldn't have a problem, but the general public can be quite conservative.

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2020, 01:52 PM »
Please take this as a thought - nothing more.

What I was wondering about is the fact that the TKS 80 absolutely needs to be grounded for the safety feature to work. (Unlike all the Class II machinery Festool and its competitors make)

So what I was thinking earlier (but threw the thought out, because ultimately SawStop is from the US and works in the US), might there be a liability issue that, depending on circuit/panel used, there would be no grounding, thus the safety feature wouldn't work? Or if it was hooked up to a panel/circuit that was not done to code/ by a professional.

(Remember: Festool explicitly says that the TKS 80 can't be used with the new SYS-Powerstation because there is no classic grounding.)

Anyone know how this handled with the actual SawStop saws?

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1238
Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2020, 02:23 PM »
Alex,

While you are right that there is a general trend of some folks in the US not wanting ideas from outside, stuff like this isn't much of an issue. I won't tangent this with the metric discussion, but remember lots of folks are very angry about the removal of metric festool tools. Festool skipped the step of giving folks the option.

Most issues with 50/60hz I would say are in the past, when it wasn't much of a consideration (less international trade), and motors were built with less consideration of this and often didn't have cooling designs that considered different speeds. My German spec CT26 list 50/60hz right on it.  Pretty sure there are no countries using Schuko plugs that are 60hz.

Oliver,

I don't think grounding is an issue.  Like anyplace else, we have grounded tools and double insulated tools (no ground). While all new (since the 1960s) outlets 110V or 220V have the ground, it's not required that tools use it, but it's there. Most tools are double insulated anymore, but if a tool does require a ground, that very much is in place. 

I haven't looked at saw stops in person, but they sell them in 110V, 220V, and 3Phase here.  So they clearly have the basis covered when it comes to how the tech works.

In the end, if the TKS 80 never comes to the US, I think one could go to the various theories that have been put out there such as other saw stop products being in the market.  Far as 230V tools in general, there is nothing stopping festool from offering them.  I really think Festool has over thought this.  Just sell or offer as an option 230V, Metric tools in the US for those who want them. It may come down to dealer network not wanting more models, but if it was something like you can get them thru a subset of dealers, I think folks would be happy. I would happily buy a metric 230V OF2200 if they sold it here.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 06:59 PM by DeformedTree »

Offline nero

  • Posts: 5
Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2020, 05:44 PM »
I think Festool should give us the option of ordering one.

They do, you just have to be creative. I was using mine here in California not more than an hour ago... :p

Offline nero

  • Posts: 5
Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2020, 05:59 PM »
Please take this as a thought - nothing more.

What I was wondering about is the fact that the TKS 80 absolutely needs to be grounded for the safety feature to work. (Unlike all the Class II machinery Festool and its competitors make)

So what I was thinking earlier (but threw the thought out, because ultimately SawStop is from the US and works in the US), might there be a liability issue that, depending on circuit/panel used, there would be no grounding, thus the safety feature wouldn't work? Or if it was hooked up to a panel/circuit that was not done to code/ by a professional.

(Remember: Festool explicitly says that the TKS 80 can't be used with the new SYS-Powerstation because there is no classic grounding.)

Anyone know how this handled with the actual SawStop saws?

Kind regards,
Oliver
Neutral and ground go to the same place in your panel. Having the ground wire is just a double redundancy for safety when a tool isn’t double insulated.

Lots of modern 240v appliances in the US either require, or have an option to wire them for ground as well, but this does not effect the saw stop system. The blade is just hooked up to a computer that senses the change in connection to ground of the blade (resistance I would assume) when it is touched by something of a certain level of conductivity to ground. This is independent of the saws electronics and their connection to ground through the wiring.

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1902
Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2020, 06:23 PM »
@Alex, am I right that dadoes are not allowed in Europe?
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 633
Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2020, 12:33 AM »
I just read this read this thread for the first time and I have a question. Isn’t the TKS 80 marketed and generally used as a portable job site saw in Europe? Predominantly not as a permanent installation in a shop setting? If so, I would agree that 220/230V would not be very suitable here as it is not generally available on a job site. No new home here (and most businesses) is built with convenience plugs for 220/230V. There is 220/230V available in the panel for dedicated uses like ovens, clothes dryers, air conditioners, etc. but never convenience plugs unless it is a custom home built to owner spec by one of us. Portable saws here are all 110V. Sure there are few Festool crazed hobbyists like us that might buy one for stationary use in their home shop but nothing like the volume that a company like Festool would need.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1238
Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2020, 01:07 AM »
Festool doesn't (edit: stupid contractions) make fixed/stationary saws.  So I wouldn't say they market it as. stationary or portable, just as a saw.  In generally though, I would say all that festool makes is marketed at some level of portability.   But as folks like Alex have pointed out in the past he doesn't drag his CS 70 around to different places, even though it is in theory portable.

I would generally say most people use jobsite saws in fixed locations, mainly in that big cabinet saws are a dying beast.  If you are going to go down that road now, I think most folks would buy the very fancy European sliding saws now. Folks buy jobsite saws because they are small, and can be built into their work bench setups well.  Plus once you have a track saw, the scope of table saw usage gets much reduced.

The basis of the 220V bit is in part it means Festool doesn't have to do a redesign for it.  But also that many folks here want 220V stuff, in part because they want it for anything high power.  Far as plugs, yes, most folks won't have a 220 plug in their living room, but they are very normal in garage.  Now with EV cars becoming normal, no one builds a garage without 220 outlet in it, and some areas/codes now require 220 plugs, and plugs like NEMA 14-50s to be in the garage to support EVs and EV chargers.

Festool should offer a 110V version, after all it's far more than just North America that would use it.  But a lot of folks would be happy to have 220V options for tools, that's all many folks ask for is the option, it's not like the items don't exist as is. No one is asking for a 3 phase model, or a 48V DC model.   Making products that have some tailoring to local markets is fine, and often a must. But when something also already exist, that is where people would like to have that too as an option. Not everyone aligns to their local market, it's why they look for stuff from other places.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 11:42 AM by DeformedTree »

Offline Alex

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Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2020, 02:50 AM »
@Alex, am I right that dadoes are not allowed in Europe?

That is correct.

"Using DADO blade is prohibited by EN and IEC standards. Therefore this is not offered in the European market. "


Festool does make fixed/stationary saws.  So I wouldn't say they market it as. stationary or portable, just as a saw.  In generally though, I would say all that festool makes is marketed at some level of portability.   But as folks like Alex have pointed out in the past he doesn't drag his CS 70 around to different places, even though it is in theory portable.

All saws Festool makes are considered mobile. Of course you can choose to leave a mobile saw in one place.

I bring my CS 70 to the job as needed. Even when using it at my own place I have to take it down after every use as I have no permanent place for it. It is currently very obnoxiously placed in my hallway with only a foot to spare, but I can't put it outside beause of heavy rain all week.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1901
Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2020, 05:50 AM »
I know it is probably confusing why we (the USA) refer to household power as 110 or 120 to those outside the US, but when we do many (including me) are talking about the same thing. Same for 220 and 240.

Yes, US homes are supplied with 240v power, but it is not run throughout the house, it's used for high power equipment like water heaters, HVAC, large power tools, EV charging stations, etc.

My line voltage normally runs a couple volts over 120 as can be seen below in this screenshot from my Sense energy monitor webapp. Both phases are close in voltage, but when I first got the Sense energy monitor 3 years ago that was not the case. I found out that the voltage of each phase differed by over 6 volts. I had 121.4 on L1 and 127.6 on L2. I knew this delta was a little wider than normal so I called my utility and they came and checked it out. They found out the transformer supplying my home and three others was bad and replaced it. Line voltage on each leg has been within two volts since.

I found this article interesting but know nothing about the website.

Why Is There 230-Volt Power in Europe and 120 Volts in North America?
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1238
Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2020, 11:46 AM »

All saws Festool makes are considered mobile. Of course you can choose to leave a mobile saw in one place.

I bring my CS 70 to the job as needed. Even when using it at my own place I have to take it down after every use as I have no permanent place for it. It is currently very obnoxiously placed in my hallway with only a foot to spare, but I can't put it outside beause of heavy rain all week.

My apologies, I thought you had said something to the effect that you can move it but it's just to bulky to carry around a lot and it generally stays put. I might have got you confused with someone else.

But you touch on something, which is those who don't have a permanent spot for a saw. Often people have portable saws set up that stay in a spot for a long time, as they have no fixed shop, but that doesn't mean the saw doesn't find a home in the same spot for years.

Offline papester

  • Posts: 15
Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2020, 11:56 AM »
Has anyone had any success in using the TKS 80 in the US?

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1749
Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2020, 02:51 PM »
What I was wondering about is the fact that the TKS 80 absolutely needs to be grounded for the safety feature to work.
I see no technical reason why the TKS 80 should need a PE for the safety feature to work, unless they f***ed it up completely by making it rely on a ground loop through the human. Which would be a bad idea as anyone wearing insulated shoes (= any plastic soles) would be up for a surprise when touching the blade (and only the blade).


Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 504
Re: TKS 80 and Dado set
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2020, 02:55 PM »
Allenbach said
Sure there are few Festool crazed hobbyists like us that might buy one for stationary use in their home shop but nothing like the volume that a company like Festool would need.

I wonder if the US sales of Mafell Erika 70 have gone from a few per year to 1-2 per year when they changed it to 220 v. For some extra money, you could get the Erika 85.