Hi. Will the new TKS80 table saw be able to take a Freud dado set?

Hi Gary,

     Welcome to the forum!

       Won't hurt to have it posted again.

Seth

Nope.

I think Festool should give us the option of ordering one.

If the US had 220v like Europe it probably wouldn't be a big deal, but now Festool has to redesign the saw with a 110v motor. And then sell it in America as a competitor to SawStop, which they also own.

US buyers have the option to buy the SawStop saws. 

Quote from: rocky100370 on December 11, 2020, 06:04 AM

I think Festool should give us the option of ordering one.

If the US had 220v like Europe it probably wouldn't be a big deal, but now Festool has to redesign the saw with a 110v motor. And then sell it in America as a competitor to SawStop, which they also own.

US buyers have the option to buy the SawStop saws.

Festool can sell the 230V model here, once again, we have 220V power.  Mafell sells their table saws as 230V here.  I don't own one, but plenty of wood workers have big table saws that are 220V.

The problem isn't the lack of 220V power in the US (since we have it), the problem is companies like Festool who don't seam to understand we have 220V and are fine with owning 220V tools (and in some cases would prefer it).

Festool over thinks bringing tools to the US, just bring stuff as is.  How much US regs come into play, we probably will never know. I know some folks bring it up, but then you have companies like Mafell that will sell you the german model of the tool, so clearly they have found they can sell stuff here with zero changes.

Still makes no sense. At least offer it to buyers. Some of us are 220v ready. Especially since most buyers who have a lot of Festool equipment want to stick with the brand.

Personally, I think it's a lot simpler in case of the TKS 80. They don't want to interfere with it in what is the original "SawStop" market, for now at least.

I have an OT question: If you have a 230V circuit/panel wired professionally in the US, it has two wires considered hot and a ground wire, right? That's were typically 230V household appliances are plugged in, correct?

Kind regards,
Oliver

I have an OT question: If you have a 230V circuit/panel wired professionally in the US, it has two wires considered hot and a ground wire, right? That's were typically 230V household appliances are plugged in, correct?

2 Hots, a Neutral and a Ground.    The Neutral and ground our Bonded together at 1 point in the system (typically the main panel).  For 110V supplies you have a hot and the neutral.   Since the neutral is bonded to the ground, it has 0VAC but carries full current the same as the 2 hots, ground is 0VAC 0amps.  On the 220V circuits, the neutral is unused. But ground is still there, the circuit is using 2 of the 110V lines that our out of phase to get the 220V.   Works out the same as pure 230V systems were one side is referenced to ground. Thus why we can plug stuff from Europe directly in.  Unless something has a real problem with 60hz vs 50hz, but most stuff you find is 200-240VAC  50/60Hz.

Generally everything is color coded.   The Hots are Black and Red, Neutral White, ground is Copper or Green.  Use the same wiring for both 110 and 220,  but when you wire up a 220V circuit, you typical wrap the white wire in red tape to help make clear it's 220V.  We also have dual voltage circuits, these have 220 and 110, so all 4 wires to the same plug.  These are common for items like dryers that might have 220V heaters, but controls/motor might be 110V.  These plugs are now common for welders, EV chargers, etc. In some places they are now required in new construction in garages.  They are also handy as you can install one, and then later use them as a place to install a small sub-panel and have 220/110V circuits.    Wire in the US for residential wiring is NM-B,  comes most often in 12-2, 14-2 or 12-3, 14-3  (the later number is the number of power conductors, so you have either a black and white or a black, white, red.  Both have a ground.  If you are building a garage/shop, you typical wire it up with a mix of 110V and 220V plugs, plus some 220/110V plugs to cover all the bases. 

Big saws, welders, air compressors, etc are typically 220V here, and course lots of hardwired in stuff is 220V.  Which is why in the end, tools being 220V really isn't an issue.  Only if you are doing a lot of work within the finish space of a house could it become a challenge, and that is where you would go looking for the dryer plug as it's going to the easiest to access 220plug,

I don't know, I have the feeling there might be more to it both technically and marketing wise.

For instance the difference between 50Hz and 60Hz. All European tools are made for 50 Hz and might not react favourably to 60 Hz. Not every electronic part is universal, and some might even depend on the correct Hz for timing issues. I remember how a few years ago Serbia and I believe Montenegro had a dispute of power distribution over the grit and as a result Serbia disconnected a few electricity plants from the European grit. It had the effect that the 50 Hz went down a minute amount but because electric clocks used the 50 Hz as timing reference, all 220v clocks run a bit slower.

And then there's the American mindset that they don't like things pushed on them by foreigners. We've had a few discussions about it here on the FOG. Festool originally sold all their tools as metric, remember? I am pretty sure they did their marketing research in the USA and got negative responses that their tools weren't imperial. Hence the switch. I think selling 220v tools would be a big step for lots of Americans. Sure, the specialist on this forum here wouldn't have a problem, but the general public can be quite conservative.

Alex,

While you are right that there is a general trend of some folks in the US not wanting ideas from outside, stuff like this isn't much of an issue. I won't tangent this with the metric discussion, but remember lots of folks are very angry about the removal of metric festool tools. Festool skipped the step of giving folks the option.

Most issues with 50/60hz I would say are in the past, when it wasn't much of a consideration (less international trade), and motors were built with less consideration of this and often didn't have cooling designs that considered different speeds. My German spec CT26 list 50/60hz right on it.  Pretty sure there are no countries using Schuko plugs that are 60hz.

Oliver,

I don't think grounding is an issue.  Like anyplace else, we have grounded tools and double insulated tools (no ground). While all new (since the 1960s) outlets 110V or 220V have the ground, it's not required that tools use it, but it's there. Most tools are double insulated anymore, but if a tool does require a ground, that very much is in place. 

I haven't looked at saw stops in person, but they sell them in 110V, 220V, and 3Phase here.  So they clearly have the basis covered when it comes to how the tech works.

In the end, if the TKS 80 never comes to the US, I think one could go to the various theories that have been put out there such as other saw stop products being in the market.  Far as 230V tools in general, there is nothing stopping festool from offering them.  I really think Festool has over thought this.  Just sell or offer as an option 230V, Metric tools in the US for those who want them. It may come down to dealer network not wanting more models, but if it was something like you can get them thru a subset of dealers, I think folks would be happy. I would happily buy a metric 230V OF2200 if they sold it here.

Please take this as a thought - nothing more.

What I was wondering about is the fact that the TKS 80 absolutely needs to be grounded for the safety feature to work. (Unlike all the Class II machinery Festool and its competitors make)

So what I was thinking earlier (but threw the thought out, because ultimately SawStop is from the US and works in the US), might there be a liability issue that, depending on circuit/panel used, there would be no grounding, thus the safety feature wouldn't work? Or if it was hooked up to a panel/circuit that was not done to code/ by a professional.

(Remember: Festool explicitly says that the TKS 80 can't be used with the new SYS-Powerstation because there is no classic grounding.)

Anyone know how this handled with the actual SawStop saws?

Kind regards,
Oliver

Neutral and ground go to the same place in your panel. Having the ground wire is just a double redundancy for safety when a tool isn’t double insulated.

Lots of modern 240v appliances in the US either require, or have an option to wire them for ground as well, but this does not effect the saw stop system. The blade is just hooked up to a computer that senses the change in connection to ground of the blade (resistance I would assume) when it is touched by something of a certain level of conductivity to ground. This is independent of the saws electronics and their connection to ground through the wiring.

I just read this read this thread for the first time and I have a question. Isn’t the TKS 80 marketed and generally used as a portable job site saw in Europe? Predominantly not as a permanent installation in a shop setting? If so, I would agree that 220/230V would not be very suitable here as it is not generally available on a job site. No new home here (and most businesses) is built with convenience plugs for 220/230V. There is 220/230V available in the panel for dedicated uses like ovens, clothes dryers, air conditioners, etc. but never convenience plugs unless it is a custom home built to owner spec by one of us. Portable saws here are all 110V. Sure there are few Festool crazed hobbyists like us that might buy one for stationary use in their home shop but nothing like the volume that a company like Festool would need.

@Alex, am I right that dadoes are not allowed in Europe?

That is correct.

"Using DADO blade is prohibited by EN and IEC standards. Therefore this is not offered in the European market. "

Festool does make fixed/stationary saws.  So I wouldn't say they market it as. stationary or portable, just as a saw.  In generally though, I would say all that festool makes is marketed at some level of portability.   But as folks like Alex have pointed out in the past he doesn't drag his CS 70 around to different places, even though it is in theory portable.

All saws Festool makes are considered mobile. Of course you can choose to leave a mobile saw in one place.

I bring my CS 70 to the job as needed. Even when using it at my own place I have to take it down after every use as I have no permanent place for it. It is currently very obnoxiously placed in my hallway with only a foot to spare, but I can't put it outside beause of heavy rain all week.

All saws Festool makes are considered mobile. Of course you can choose to leave a mobile saw in one place.

I bring my CS 70 to the job as needed. Even when using it at my own place I have to take it down after every use as I have no permanent place for it. It is currently very obnoxiously placed in my hallway with only a foot to spare, but I can't put it outside beause of heavy rain all week.

My apologies, I thought you had said something to the effect that you can move it but it's just to bulky to carry around a lot and it generally stays put. I might have got you confused with someone else.

But you touch on something, which is those who don't have a permanent spot for a saw. Often people have portable saws set up that stay in a spot for a long time, as they have no fixed shop, but that doesn't mean the saw doesn't find a home in the same spot for years.

What I was wondering about is the fact that the TKS 80 absolutely needs to be grounded for the safety feature to work.

I see no technical reason why the TKS 80 should need a PE for the safety feature to work, unless they f***ed it up completely by making it rely on a ground loop through the human. Which would be a bad idea as anyone wearing insulated shoes (= any plastic soles) would be up for a surprise when touching the blade (and only the blade).