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Author Topic: Safety Topic  (Read 6735 times)

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Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3354
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Safety Topic
« on: April 04, 2020, 03:03 PM »
I think a separate topic should be "Safety Tips".

I've been doing woodworking for many years and have learned a lot of safety lessons, but would love to learn from others.
Birdhunter

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2020, 03:54 PM »
I think a separate topic should be "Safety Tips".

I've been doing woodworking for many years and have learned a lot of safety lessons, but would love to learn from others.

Yes I also agree, it would make good sense to have such topics on a forum such as this, and if it helps people to be more aware and disciplined to stay safe, it can only be a good thing.

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3354
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2020, 09:10 PM »
How do I get Festool to look at this?
Birdhunter

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
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  • Posts: 9494
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2020, 12:51 AM »
How do I get Festool to look at this?

I'm looking. I can make sure Festool will see it.

Seth

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 830
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2020, 04:38 AM »
This is a great idea!
I would love to see users experience as well as recommendations from Festool and alike.
May I suggest a grouping by machine type? And a pinned topic?
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3354
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2020, 06:24 AM »
I think I should have specified a new “Board” within the FOG site.
Birdhunter

Offline Vondawg

  • Posts: 381
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2020, 07:43 AM »
I could see this going down a rabbit hole if not planned right. Like a worry wart mother or being afraid of bungee cords .....as if  grown people can’t figure obvious things out
There are no mistakes....just new designs.

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 682
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2020, 09:33 AM »
Yeah might be just a big pile of unread posts. I know it would take maintenance but our work puts out a weekly safety tip usually related to a real life incident. Maybe a weekly of monthly "sticky"?

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
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  • Posts: 9494
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2020, 10:26 AM »
Keep the ideas and thoughts on it coming. No promises, but the idea is good.

Seth

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3354
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2020, 10:55 AM »
.....as if  grown people can’t figure obvious things out

I’m certainly grown at 76 and I’ve been doing woodworking for over 40 years. I’m still learning tricks to reduce the possibility of an injury. I’ve started young friends in this craft and see them doing dangerous things out of inexperience. I’ve been “dinged” by accidents in retrospect seem incredibly obvious.

There is an immense volume of wisdom on this forum. Somehow, there must be a way to share this wisdom.

If one hand, one eye is saved, this would be a worthwhile exercise.
Birdhunter

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1238
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2020, 11:30 AM »
Creating a separate discussion board just makes it easy for people to completely ignore it, just like other safety instructions in life.

The good thing of bits on safety popping up in the main boards is people are more likely to see them.


Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2395
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2020, 11:52 AM »
.....as if  grown people can’t figure obvious things out

If one hand, one eye is saved, this would be a worthwhile exercise.
If people who suffered, say, a tablesaw injury, could really figure obvious things out, the injury wouldn't have happened in the first place.
 
In case anyone wonders if woodworking accidents really happen...the OSHA website has them documented with details...when, what how/why. They happen to hobbyists, trade people, young and old, male (more) and female, day and night.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 11:54 AM by ChuckM »

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 830
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2020, 12:50 PM »
Soo.. what did I do today, yes - shredded a millimetre thick piece of skin of the tip of my pinky about a half a centimetre wide.

I finally found time to start dismantling my newly bought Metabo Secanta saw for some light restoration. In the process I forgot to remove the blade. Well, that’s a quick job, no gloves and a 1/4” ratchet should do.. but holding the blade with the other naked hand.
One tooth on the sharp blade was enough.
Not a mess of blood, but a very sour pinky..

The right way: leather gloves on, block the blade with a piece of wood and it went off smoothly. I knew the right way, but didn’t bother to find the gloves or piece of wood.
No big thing, but I could have cut myself badly even with the only force of my other hand. Thankfully I did hold the blade in a manner that my palm was out of harms way.

Stupid.. [mad]
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Vondawg

  • Posts: 381
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2020, 01:07 PM »
@Birdhunter yes you’re right, there must be someway...that last line of mine didn’t come off right..guess being in your boat, same age, years woodworking/professionally licensed, etc. I roll my eyes when hearing certain things but must remember to move on and that somebody can learn from it ....the learning never stops.
Btw...I’ve been thinking the same things about all the tools.
There are no mistakes....just new designs.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1238
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2020, 02:25 PM »
.....as if  grown people can’t figure obvious things out

I’m certainly grown at 76 and I’ve been doing woodworking for over 40 years. I’m still learning tricks to reduce the possibility of an injury. I’ve started young friends in this craft and see them doing dangerous things out of inexperience. I’ve been “dinged” by accidents in retrospect seem incredibly obvious.

There is an immense volume of wisdom on this forum. Somehow, there must be a way to share this wisdom.

If one hand, one eye is saved, this would be a worthwhile exercise.

A lot of this is people don't see things that are "the way I/we have always done it" as dangerous. It's built into us to not see the tool or practice as dangerous as it is, if you were looking at at as a new creation.  This is why it's so hard to get people to change.  Lots of tools are very dangerous, but they haven't changed in 100 years, so no one sees a reason to change or uses some statement like "somehow we all survived" as a cover for what they are doing, ignoring not everyone survived.

PPE stuff is just this. Getting folks to wear safety gear is hard when for generations no one did it. Look at getting people to want dust collection, lots of folks just don't get it. Many people take pride in getting covered in dust. A lot of the changes will take a generation or 2. Always does. Look at things like litter and disposal of stuff. People under 40 would never think of tossing it along the road, pouring something down the drain.  It took a couple generations to get the mindsets to change.

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 443
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2020, 02:57 PM »
I think it is  important to know how and why accidents happen. I read an article that mentioned almost 80% of accidents on the table saw happen when people reach around the blade to grab a part before it has completely cleared the blade resulting in a kickback drawing that hand back into the blade.

Because of that article I never use a table saw without a good push stick and some sort of out feed table.

I think the more we know about how accidents happen the more likely it is we will avoid them.



Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3354
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2020, 05:31 PM »
A very intelligent young friend whom I got started in woodworking asked my wife and me to his house for a glass of wine and to see his new project. The four of us went into the garage where his Craftsman saw was set up.

My first question was where is the blade guard? He pointed to a shelf. His wife asked what is a blade guard?

I said it keeps your fingers out of the saw blade. She looked (glared) at her. Husband and said put it back on!

His explanation was that the blade guard was inconvenient.
Birdhunter

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 830
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2020, 05:52 PM »
The blade guard on a table saw is to common to not to see AT ALL in videos, photos etc.
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but it’s rare species  [blink]
I have left my guard off on my old table saw too often, but my CS 50 is supposed to have it fixed whenever in use. There might be cuts that need it off, but then the body and hands are far far off the blade (ie: splitting long narrow awkward crown mouldings that catches the guard. But then I can feed with two persons, one at front and the second pulling from behind at the end of cut.

More scary are a sight I’ve seen on building sites; miter saws with the entire guard removed  [scared]. They usually say it hangs up.. yes, and from my experience they do so if the saw is not cleaned and serviced regularly. The return spring and sawdust build up will limit the blade guard retraction after a while. A simple good clean and dust removal usually fix this. Solution on a work site: Remove it! [eek]
I believe that you guys in here do service and not removal.. [big grin]
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3354
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2020, 08:59 PM »
I have a long scab on my left forearm. I was cutting a 22.5 degree bevel when the blade guard exploded. The SawStop blade guard is a two piece affair on each side. I apparently pushed the drop down portion against the saw blade and pieces flew everywhere. I make a practice of always standing well off to the side of the saw blade so only a piece of the flying plastic hit me. I had a Magswitch featherboard against the wood so that didn’t go but a few inches.

I replaced the damaged blade guard. I now carefully check the blade guard so it is completely clear of the saw blade.

Over 40 years of woodworking and still shedding blood. Obvious mistake? Yes, in retrospect.
Birdhunter

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2395
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2020, 09:13 PM »
If SawStop knew about your incident, it might look into ways to improve their guards, either in material or in design (e.g., such that the moveable piece (I call it a fin) could ride in some kind of slot so it couldn't be pushed to touch a blade so easily). My fin on the fence side had touched the spinning blade but it didn't explode when my push shoe passed through between the fence and the blade guard. Your story is educational.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1901
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2020, 04:34 AM »
"His explanation was that the blade guard was inconvenient."

If only he could experience a week of 9-1/2 fingers then he might get a taste of what inconvenience is.

I have three 9 fingered friends who would like to tell him to use that guard.

As far as taking pride in being covered in dust at the end of the day. I never looked at it like that but I did have a job where I was covered in dust. It was more of a nuisance than a badge of honor. I was working on construction of a nuclear power plant as a pipefitter. Spent many a 10 hour day crawling around inside the reactor building running pipe, grinding J bevels for welds, installing pipe supports, etc. Looking back the place was filthy, even though they had people cleaning constantly. I would get two 4" air grinders and a stack of 12 or more grinding wheels at the beginning of the shift and most days they would all be gone by the end of the shift. You don't think that makes a mess try wearing out even one wheel and see what it's like. Now put over 100 people inside the same closed space with minimal ventilation and see how much swarf you take home with you. My clothes were covered with the grit and swarf from the steel plus the dust and debris from crawling around in the workspace. Towards the end of the job when the majority of the pipe and conduit and everything else was installed there were very few places where you could even stand up, that's how crammed it is inside there. My ears and nose would be filled with black grit and no doubt some of the bits of carbon or stainless steel I had been grinding on that day. In the 70s and 80s no one was handing out disposable ear plugs or dust masks to the thousands doing this type of work. On this one project alone we had over 1000 pipefitters welding and grinding. Add to that all the other trades and you can begin to envision the mess we worked in every day. When you blow your nose and nothing but black gunk comes out you have to think this can't be good.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 1169
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2020, 10:47 AM »
Adam Savage of MythBusters fame recently had an accident in the shop with his lathe: .
Inquiring Minds Want to Know

TS55, CT26, RO150, CXS, ETS 150/3, ETS EC 150/5, MFT/3, TS75, DF500, DTS400, OF1400, CT SYS

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1238
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2020, 11:00 AM »
I think Adam needs to have a talk about fire safety/fire hazard.  A fire gets started in there, it's going up fast and will he be able to get out in time, or anyone find him. 

A workshop full of stuff, and stuff hanging on the ceiling/walls/etc looks fun, but it's not safe.  Definitely not a space you want to be running machines and such in.

Offline GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 1169
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2020, 11:08 AM »
That's a good point about fire safety.  His previous video gave a bit of a tour of his "cave" and some of its contents: https://youtu.be/slvJzIJ_YXM?t=164.  Starts at the 2:44 mark.

Inquiring Minds Want to Know

TS55, CT26, RO150, CXS, ETS 150/3, ETS EC 150/5, MFT/3, TS75, DF500, DTS400, OF1400, CT SYS

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2395
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2020, 11:11 AM »
The video reminds me of the owner of woodgears.ca who had a table saw finger accident. Before that, he did not put enough emphasis on safety precaution in his videos. But the irony is with another video content producer who encountered a finger injury on his tablesaw shortly before his SawStop arrived. However, kudos to these people who did not try to cover their injuries, but shared them with their audience regardless of how they felt about safety in the past before the accidents hit.

All the local high school shops I've visited are equipped with the SawStop...no exceptions. Of course, all other machines they have, the mitre saws, the jointers, the band saws, etc. are equally dangerous tools for those teen students. I have great respects for the teachers since every day, they have a job to ensure the safety of their kids in a challenging environment: It's no easy task to manage teens in a classroom, let alone in a shop that is full of equipment that could seriously maim. 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 11:33 AM by ChuckM »

Offline GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 1169
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2020, 11:22 AM »
Matthias Wandel covered some "beginner" table saw mistakes that more experienced users might not even think about: .

He also put up an article about it on his website: https://woodgears.ca/table_saw/mistakes.html.

Inquiring Minds Want to Know

TS55, CT26, RO150, CXS, ETS 150/3, ETS EC 150/5, MFT/3, TS75, DF500, DTS400, OF1400, CT SYS

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2395
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2020, 11:31 AM »
I never use push sticks on my table saw. They don't give the kind of control a push block or push shoe does. Push shoes can be easily shop made (examples can be seen in the school shop image) or bought:

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/safety/push-sticks-and-blocks/30067-dual-tread-push-stick

I have several fixed and adjustable push shoes made to cater for different ripping widths. Total control every time.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 11:34 AM by ChuckM »

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1238
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2020, 11:43 AM »
I never use push sticks on my table saw. They don't give the kind of control a push block or push shoe does. Push shoes can be easily shop made (examples can be seen in the school shop image) or bought:


define what the difference between push stick and push shoe is?  I think people use them interchangeably?

Push Stick-Push Shoe

As it says, push stick is a general term for all of these.


Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7223
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2020, 12:00 PM »
I think most people who got an accident knew perfectly well what they were doing and should have done to keep it safe. It's not rocket science.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1238
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2020, 12:28 PM »
I think most people who got an accident knew perfectly well what they were doing and should have done to keep it safe. It's not rocket science.

I would assume people in your part of the world act the same way.  When they mess up/do something stupid, it's alway someone else's fault, or a bad product, not them.  Time to go get a lawyer.


Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2395
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2020, 12:29 PM »
Snip.

define what the difference between push stick and push shoe is?  I think people use them interchangeably?

Push Stick-Push Shoe

As it says, push stick is a general term for all of these.

Image from left to right:

Push stick (for use with the band saw, not the table saw), fixed push shoe, adjustable push shoe, and push block.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 1169
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2020, 12:34 PM »
I think most people who got an accident knew perfectly well what they were doing and should have done to keep it safe. It's not rocket science.

It may just be my inexperience, but not everything is that intuitive or obvious to me.

For example, using 1 clamp to hold down the workpiece on a miter saw is a good idea.  Therefore, I'd think think using a clamp on both sides would be "twice as good" but that's obviously not that case and should not be done.

Same for the rule of not using a fence in conjunction with a miter gauge.    I never would have thought on the surface that it would be dangerous if I hadn't heard it and had it explained by others.

As they say, you don't know what you don't know.  So I always appreciate safety reminders and explanations.
Inquiring Minds Want to Know

TS55, CT26, RO150, CXS, ETS 150/3, ETS EC 150/5, MFT/3, TS75, DF500, DTS400, OF1400, CT SYS

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2395
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2020, 12:50 PM »
Snip.

As they say, you don't know what you don't know.

Indeed.

In post #18, Birdhunter related to his SawStop blade guard incident. It has never happened to me as a SawStop user since 2007 or so. Knowing about that incident, I will now be more careful when I do bevel cuts and make sure the fins won't be pushed into the blade. Shop safety is a very complex subject, and awareness of its importance (and our own blind spot) is the first step towards safe woodworking. 

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1238
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2020, 01:11 PM »
I think most people who got an accident knew perfectly well what they were doing and should have done to keep it safe. It's not rocket science.

It may just be my inexperience, but not everything is that intuitive or obvious to me.

For example, using 1 clamp to hold down the workpiece on a miter saw is a good idea.  Therefore, I'd think think using a clamp on both sides would be "twice as good" but that's obviously not that case and should not be done.

Same for the rule of not using a fence in conjunction with a miter gauge.    I never would have thought on the surface that it would be dangerous if I hadn't heard it and had it explained by others.

As they say, you don't know what you don't know.  So I always appreciate safety reminders and explanations.

This is a good example, and it shows a short coming with tools.  Often they do little to explain the safety devices, other than point to them in a diagram. They might show how to use the safety device(s) on the tool.  What is almost never done is explaining the theory behind it, they whys.  You example is perfect here, "use the hold down clamp",  great, so as you say someone things then more clamps better, nothing is there to explain binding and such. When people get informed of what is going on with it, with a bit further information than just "this is the anti kickback device", or "this prevents the material from kicking back", but explains how such an event happens and why the setup is the is they way it is, people get smarter.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7223
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2020, 01:56 PM »
I think most people who got an accident knew perfectly well what they were doing and should have done to keep it safe. It's not rocket science.

I would assume people in your part of the world act the same way.  When they mess up/do something stupid, it's alway someone else's fault, or a bad product, not them.  Time to go get a lawyer.

Dunno. I only know that the kind of litigation Americans are used to is simply not possible here. Most of the cases that are admissable in the US wouldn't even get to court here, and for the few that do there has to be a strong indication the manufacturer is at fault. And then the money awarded is only for proveable costs and/or losses, and mostly measured in thousands and not in the millions.

But besides that, my remark was only meant to indicate most people know what they should do to keep it safe, but just disregard those rules, for various reasons. It has absolutely nothing to do with who is eventually to blame. Which, most of the time, is the person himself.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2020, 02:14 PM »
I think most people who got an accident knew perfectly well what they were doing and should have done to keep it safe. It's not rocket science.

It may just be my inexperience, but not everything is that intuitive or obvious to me.

For example, using 1 clamp to hold down the workpiece on a miter saw is a good idea.  Therefore, I'd think think using a clamp on both sides would be "twice as good" but that's obviously not that case and should not be done.

Same for the rule of not using a fence in conjunction with a miter gauge.    I never would have thought on the surface that it would be dangerous if I hadn't heard it and had it explained by others.

As they say, you don't know what you don't know.  So I always appreciate safety reminders and explanations.

Got talking to a colleague yesterday about using two clamps simultaneously. He then reminded me that one of the timber mills we use, has a monster of a radial arm just near the entrance to one of the stock sheds.
This thing has three hydraulic hold down clamps each side of the cutter head, and more often than not, whoever operates it, uses all six clamps to hold the big pieces of rough sawn stock, whilst cutting.
They don’t seem to suffer kickback, well at least we’ve not witnessed it. I know this is cutting stock of a much larger size but, the principal must be the same or somewhere near?
Bearing in mind the majority of their sawn timber is not flat or straight.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 830
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2020, 03:11 PM »
@Jiggy Joiner
I follow your thoughts.. Since I got the KS120 I have on occasions used both clamps.
There’s many aspects and variables that comes into play here.
- Is the piece flat?
- Is it well supported, in all its length and width?
- Speed of movement of the head as the operator moves it?
- Are all levers securely locked, bevel/angle locks?

The security of using two or more clamps, and keeping the free hand well away from any danger zones is something I would prefer. Damage to the saw, well it’s replaceable.
If the above criteria’s are met, I think the risks are low (others; chime in if you disagree or want to add)

One factor I’ve learned, in practice and from seasoned carpenters:
Let The Tool (Saw) Do The Job!

With miter saws I see too often that the operator almost hits the piece way too fast. You wouldn’t do that on a table saw?
In fear of warped timber or timber with tension, go slow on both rpm’s and lower the head slowly. This way if there’s movement (tension/warped) the sawblade has time to “correct” it’s cutting path.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1901
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2020, 03:47 PM »
As much as I like Matthias and all the great projects and videos he has put out for everyone to enjoy I do not hold him up as a example of how to work safely.

In many instances he does not use guards when it is easy to do so, he exposes more blade on the TS than needed, and will often poo-poo those who take exception with his what appears to be carelessness on camera for all to see and copy. He will justify it as he knows what he's doing. Just as lame as the 'guard has been removed for photographic clarity" BS that the DIY and WWing shows flash on the screen. Once you've seen a spinning blade move through a piece of wood how many more times do you need to see it.

Matthias is not the only guilty party and I am probably only slightly better with my personal safety habits but I'm not the one with a couple hundred thousand followers on YT.

All the DIY shows such as TOH and all the rest are just as bad if not worse.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2395
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2020, 03:56 PM »
The use of two clamps on each side of a typical mitre saw blade at the same time may or may not result in binding and/or kickback depending on so many factors such as the condition and type of the lumber, its size, vibration, etc. No one can be sure if or when the binding could happen if both clamps are used together at once. It hasn't happened does not mean it doesn't happen.

On the other hand, one thing that is 100% sure is that using just one clamp with the off-cut freely to go will cause zero binding. The question is why take the risk? Safety often is about risk management, and in my shop I use just one clamp, and if the other end needs to be supported, I get it supported.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1238
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2020, 04:12 PM »
The use of two clamps on each side of a typical mitre saw blade at the same time may or may not result in binding and/or kickback depending on so many factors such as the condition and type of the lumber, its size, vibration, etc. No one can be sure if or when the binding could happen if both clamps are used together at once. It hasn't happened does not mean it doesn't happen.

On the other hand, one thing that is 100% sure is that using just one clamp with the off-cut freely to go will cause zero binding. The question is why take the risk? Safety often is about risk management, and in my shop I use just one clamp, and if the other end needs to be supported, I get it supported.

Yeah, a saw mill and miter saw not the same thing. A big factor is saw mills have basically endless power.  It's hard to compare different tools/setups as you don't know what the manufacture has based their design on, tested, experienced over time.

All the talk on miter saws is surprising to me. I haven't considered them very un-safe. And I don't clamp stuff unless I have some very special setup going on.  The few times things have got eventful I knew in advance it would happen and planned for it to happen (small end cut, weird angle, you know something is probably going to fly, so take precautions for that).  Miter saws not high on my fear factor list.

Tools like jointers and routers, now those are ones that make me nervous.  High Speed or Large cutting that you don't see when using, and keeps running for a while after you stop, and with routers if not in a plunge base, you might set the thing down and it's still spinning or grab the bottom of the tool. Tools where you see the blade and it's rather stationary or on a guide worry me far less.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2020, 04:14 PM »
A former co-worker, in his 70s, cut his fingers on the table saw as he tried to remove an off-cut BEFORE the blade came to a stop. His first major table saw injury after over 40 years of hobby woodworking. Several months later, he said the pain was still not completely gone. Not sure if it was a psychological thing or the nerve pain never went away. His wife insisted that he get either a Festool track saw or a SawStop if he wanted to continue his hobby. He picked the former because in his words "I don't do a lot these days," and the SawStop was a lot pricier.

People can explain to themselves why they don't need or want the blade guard or riving knife installed when it does not obstruct the cuts. I wish them good luck and hope they will never find themselves hurt when using machines.

But these 604 pages of table saw incidents are a stark reminder that we should try as best as we can to use blade guards and riving knives whenever possible:

https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=&acc_keyword=%22table+saw%22&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=04&endday=07&endyear=2002&startmonth=04&startday=07&startyear=2021&InspNr=

Click on the summary to see more details.

Remember countless table saw injuries are not reported or included in those pages.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 04:54 PM by ChuckM »

Offline FestitaMakool

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2020, 04:22 PM »
As much as I like Matthias and all the great projects and videos he has put out for everyone to enjoy I do not hold him up as a example of how to work safely.

In many instances he does not use guards when it is easy to do so, he exposes more blade on the TS than needed, and will often poo-poo those who take exception with his what appears to be carelessness on camera for all to see and copy. He will justify it as he knows what he's doing. Just as lame as the 'guard has been removed for photographic clarity" BS that the DIY and WWing shows flash on the screen. Once you've seen a spinning blade move through a piece of wood how many more times do you need to see it.

Matthias is not the only guilty party and I am probably only slightly better with my personal safety habits but I'm not the one with a couple hundred thousand followers on YT.

All the DIY shows such as TOH and all the rest are just as bad if not worse.

After seeing the video, I agree with you, no blade guard where there could easily have been one. I didn’t notice if he had the riving knife in place though. Nothing much to learn, safety wise.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline FestitaMakool

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2020, 04:25 PM »
How would you think of securing those times you use a end stop on the miter saw?
Many, including me are using some sort of end stop for repetitive cuts. This way one of the pieces are constricted to move after the cut is made.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2020, 04:25 PM »
Snip.
All the talk on miter saws is surprising to me. I haven't considered them very un-safe.

Here're a couple examples of mitre saw injuries:

https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/accidentsearch.accident_detail?id=202527867
https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/accidentsearch.accident_detail?id=202468286
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 04:38 PM by ChuckM »

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2020, 04:31 PM »
How would you think of securing those times you use a end stop on the miter saw?
Many, including me are using some sort of end stop for repetitive cuts. This way one of the pieces are constricted to move after the cut is made.

Use a spring-loaded stop block as featured in the Tricks of the Trade in Popular Woodworking Magazine October 2010 #185:
https://cdn.instructables.com/FCM/5O8H/IZ6BX79J/FCM5O8HIZ6BX79J.LARGE.jpg?auto=webp&fit=bounds

It can also be used on the table saw cross-cut sled.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 04:47 PM by ChuckM »

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2020, 04:41 PM »
Snip.
All the talk on miter saws is surprising to me. I haven't considered them very un-safe.

Here're a couple of examples of mitre saw injuries:

https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/accidentsearch.accident_detail?id=202527867
https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/accidentsearch.accident_detail?id=202468286

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't implying I don't think people can injury themselves with a miter saw.  Just that it's not the tool that would jump to the top of my dangerous tool list. It would be one of the lower ones on the powertool list.  This is why I was surprised to see people talking about miter saws.

A lot of the really dangerous ones are small tools.  Like dremel/cut off tools.  Oscillating tools.   Basically tools that are a blade just hanging out there looking for something.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2020, 04:44 PM »

Offline martin felder

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2020, 05:04 PM »
This is not a miter saw I currently own.  Assuming one is not using very wide boards and the miter saw is not setup for portability, this saw pictures would seem like a great option.  I posted this picture on another thread but this seems to be where this topic is being discussed.  I do not use clamps much on my current miter saw (the Kapex), but I do not use it for wide cuts (Table saw for that) or compound miters (for a woodshop not a job site for crown). I find the hand-manual clamps not so practical, but I am starting to re-think my priorities.  However, if I had that saw with pneumatic clamps, I would probably use the clamps with every cut, which is what I do with my slider table saw that has pneumatic clamps.  As for the binding issue, I am not sure if it would be a problem or not using both horizontal and/or vertical at the same time.


Offline ChuckM

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2020, 05:11 PM »
The pneumatic clamps are really nice, especially for repetitive work. If the feet can be swapped to wider ones, they can even handle small pieces.

I don't quite understand why you say the Kapex hold-down clamp is not practical. I use it 95% or more of the time when I use the Kapex. It is quick release, unlike the screw-type that we find of all other mitre saws. The screw-type is so impractical that I know of no one single mitre saw user who uses it (at all or on a regular basis).   

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2020, 05:25 PM »
Snip.

After seeing the video, I agree with you, no blade guard where there could easily have been one. I didn’t notice if he had the riving knife in place though. Nothing much to learn, safety wise.

If he had used the blade guard regularly, he would not have cut his fingers in the first place, and produced the video that explained why his fingers were cut.  But as we all know, many prolific YouTube content producers use their table saws without any guard and/or riving knife at all. Ironically, they are the ones (given the higher level of distraction) who could get added protection from using the safety gear.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 05:30 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Jiggy Joiner

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2020, 05:26 PM »
This is not a miter saw I currently own.  Assuming one is not using very wide boards and the miter saw is not setup for portability, this saw pictures would seem like a great option.  I posted this picture on another thread but this seems to be where this topic is being discussed.  I do not use clamps much on my current miter saw (the Kapex), but I do not use it for wide cuts (Table saw for that) or compound miters (for a woodshop not a job site for crown). I find the hand-manual clamps not so practical, but I am starting to re-think my priorities.  However, if I had that saw with pneumatic clamps, I would probably use the clamps with every cut, which is what I do with my slider table saw that has pneumatic clamps.  As for the binding issue, I am not sure if it would be a problem or not using both horizontal and/or vertical at the same time.

(Attachment Link)

I posted earlier mentioning a large industrial saw at a timber mill we use, has three hydraulic clamps each side of the cutting head. Nearly every time an operator uses it, they lock down all six clamps.
They’re cutting all kinds including rough sawn, non flat timber in large dimensions, without seemingly suffering any binding or kick back.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2020, 05:32 PM »
@FestitaMakool Thanks, I think we share the same or similar thoughts, whatever happens, I value my limbs more than any tool or machine.  [thumbs up]

Offline Alex

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2020, 05:45 PM »
A lot of the really dangerous ones are small tools.  Like dremel/cut off tools.  Oscillating tools.   Basically tools that are a blade just hanging out there looking for something.

Kidding, right?

Nobody accidentally cut of 3 fingers with a Dremel. Only injury you'll get from an oscillating multitool is burning your fingers when you try to change the blade right after you've made a cut.

Of the most used powertools the most dangerous ones are the table saw, circular saw and chain saw, as the slightest mistake can lead to missing body parts or an arterial bleeding.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2020, 05:49 PM »
Circular saws! [scared] They may look innocent, but they can amputate or kill:

https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?acc_keyword=%22Circular%20Saw%22&keyword_list=on

Offline FestitaMakool

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2020, 05:52 PM »
@FestitaMakool Thanks, I think we share the same or similar thoughts, whatever happens, I value my limbs more than any tool or machine.  [thumbs up]
Thanks the same!  [smile]
I’ve used a miter saw for a whole lot over at least 20 years. Over that period I’ve had a few scary throwout and kickbacks. Crown mouldings without support and clamping is one, short pieces another, not well supported pieces yet another one. Wet heavy treated timber too.
So, now also knowing two close friends with sewn on thumbs.. my lefty are not on the saws table anymore. A rule I had till now is holding the piece with my hand placed outside of the table’s end. The end of the table is blocking my hand from moving to the right. Short pieces have been held in place with long scrap pieces of wood - goggles on and stand back!
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline FestitaMakool

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2020, 06:00 PM »
A lot of the really dangerous ones are small tools.  Like dremel/cut off tools.  Oscillating tools.   Basically tools that are a blade just hanging out there looking for something.

Kidding, right?

Nobody accidentally cut of 3 fingers with a Dremel. Only injury you'll get from an oscillating multitool is burning your fingers when you try to change the blade right after you've made a cut.

Of the most used powertools the most dangerous ones are the table saw, circular saw and chain saw, as the slightest mistake can lead to missing body parts or an arterial bleeding.

- They’re eating eyes.. Dremel and their counterparts are extremely dangerous to your eyesight.
But if you cut yourself they usually make clean cuts. Surgeons are not fan of toothed saw blade cuts - they make a terrible mess.. Freely spoken from a surgeon.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #56 on: April 07, 2020, 06:17 PM »
A lot of the really dangerous ones are small tools.  Like dremel/cut off tools.  Oscillating tools.   Basically tools that are a blade just hanging out there looking for something.

Kidding, right?

Nobody accidentally cut of 3 fingers with a Dremel. Only injury you'll get from an oscillating multitool is burning your fingers when you try to change the blade right after you've made a cut.

Of the most used powertools the most dangerous ones are the table saw, circular saw and chain saw, as the slightest mistake can lead to missing body parts or an arterial bleeding.

No, not kidding.  You have the debris that comes off as mentioned but people hurt themselves because the loose track of where the blade is while moving the tool, the part, and both hands around.  It's an fully expose blade, no margin there.  Fully agree on chainsaw, now you are in the fully exposed blade catagory.   On multi-tools, like the one I have, it's battery powered, it dies, you pull the battery off, put a new one on and the tool takes off running (yes, that can be a design issue of the tool, but that's the case for all tools, the design of each comes into play).  Also with the multi tool you may have moved the blade in a different position than you had it all day, you also are using them often to get into awkward spots.  It's very easy to find you turning it and having a running blade right at your face.

Cut off tools, multi-tools and their big even brother the angle grinder get folks in trouble fast.


Offline jimbo51

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2020, 06:50 AM »
I think I still have a recording of Ask This Old House which contains one of the worst safety violations I have ever seen.

Tommy Silva is helping lay down some wood flooring. To fit a piece at a doorway, he does a rip cut in a piece while holding in his bare hand. I still cannot believe they put that out as acceptable behavior.

Offline Birdhunter

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  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Safety Topic: Jig saw
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2020, 01:03 PM »
I own a Festool battery jigsaw. It’s a great tool.

I NOW store the saw in the Systainer with the battery removed. This is after grabbing the saw out of the Systainer and having it fire up. Scared me. No blood shed.  Lesson learned.
Birdhunter

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2020, 01:12 PM »
I think I still have a recording of Ask This Old House which contains one of the worst safety violations I have ever seen.

Tommy Silva is helping lay down some wood flooring. To fit a piece at a doorway, he does a rip cut in a piece while holding in his bare hand. I still cannot believe they put that out as acceptable behavior.

TOH, NYWS, ATOH. are pretty much the origin of "some safety features have been removed for tv".  You will see lots of bad things be done, and it goes back to it all being normal to the folks. No one is reviewing it to really think if what was done is right.  And if your editing later having a screen show "footage not found", everytime they go to cut something, just isn't going to work.

In the case of TOH, you basically have a situation were Tom is using his own tool, the show is just another job of his company.  He's not getting paid to show off the tools and such (well, till now with Festool sponsorship). He was there just to do the job. Unless they set up the scene to be a focus on safety, they probably won't put much thought to it.  While in-correct use of a tool probably falls under OSHA, you can tell they are more concerned on making sure everyone has safety glasses, harness, hard hats and other stuff that if his people don't have, can get him in trouble real fast.


Offline martin felder

  • Posts: 110
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2020, 01:40 PM »


TOH, NYWS, ATOH. are pretty much the origin of "some safety features have been removed for tv".

That video is a good example.  Here Norm says at 0:44.  that when using a router it is always good to have hearing protection and just protection.  Then, 6 seconds later he demonstrates using the router without either.  Then, right after that he said to not wear jewelry of any kind to catch on the tools, then you see him make a cut after that with a ring on. Haha

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline ChuckM

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2020, 02:18 PM »
For anyone who wants a refresher on mitre saw safety:

https://youtu.be/FVpmjX1DjmI?t=175

Since I don't have a SawsStop feature on my Kapex, I use its hold-down clamp most of the time (with a very few exceptions in which cases an F-style clamp may be used instead -- watch video segment at 7:48).

« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 02:24 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Alex

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2020, 04:41 PM »
Cut off tools, multi-tools and their big even brother the angle grinder get folks in trouble fast.

Angle grinder - yes, definitely. The other two - just minor injuries, not worth mentioning in this category.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2020, 04:59 PM »
The dremmel type tools do present some danger, mainly as mentioned to the eyes and face.
When set up as a mini grinder or cutter, they expel a lot of dust or fine metal swarf, and even when wearing goggles, the dust can find it’s way into any vents the goggles have.
I know of a few cases of people having fine metal or dust coating their eyes, and has ended in a hospital visit to get cleaned out.
Because the dust is fine, it sticks quite firm sometimes to eyes. Being fine dust, many operators don’t see it, so don’t worry about goggles.
The wire brush fitting for these tools can be lethal, as they’re often poor quality and break up easily, sending metal strands flying around.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #64 on: April 09, 2020, 12:59 AM »
Cut off tools, multi-tools and their big even brother the angle grinder get folks in trouble fast.

Angle grinder - yes, definitely. The other two - just minor injuries, not worth mentioning in this category.

I don't know about that. Put one of the circular type blades on a multi tool and you better watch your hand placement. Even with the little plastic edge guard.


Seth

Offline Birdhunter

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  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Safety Topic; the little voice
« Reply #65 on: April 09, 2020, 05:28 AM »
My wife is a fantastic cook but has terrible knife skills and has contributed her blood to a few meals. She lets her hands get in the path the knife would take if it slipped or glanced off the object being cut. I have suffered a few wounds from screw drivers, chisels, and pocket knives that slipped and encountered my gnarly hands. Careless, stupid, yes, but common injuries.

I’ve learned to think “what could go wrong here?” before picking up a chisel, knife , turning on a saw etc. I also listen to that little voice that says “this doesn’t feel safe”. I’ve learned to walk away and come up with a safe way to get the job done. I’ve found this little voice is harder to hear when I’m in a hurry and when I’m tired.

I still screw up, but when I do, I add a mental note to my “preflight check list”.

Oh! I forgot to say that when I come up with a safe way to do a difficult operation, especially something I rarely do, I take pictures of the setup.
Birdhunter

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Safety Topic (Not everything you see in a magazine is safe)
« Reply #66 on: April 12, 2020, 03:54 PM »
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 03:57 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 1270
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2020, 09:53 PM »
I never use push sticks on my table saw. They don't give the kind of control a push block or push shoe does. Push shoes can be easily shop made (examples can be seen in the school shop image) or bought:


define what the difference between push stick and push shoe is?  I think people use them interchangeably?

Push Stick-Push Shoe

As it says, push stick is a general term for all of these.

The wikipedia article should have been titled Push_Device but it would get a lot less hit  [tongue]
Mario

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2395
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #68 on: April 18, 2020, 02:25 PM »
Another shop safety reminder: https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/kamloops-student-sues-teacher-school-district-after-losing-fingers-in-shop-class-mishap/ar-BB12PV38?ocid=mailsignout


I wish this kind of technology would be adopted by band saw manufacturers:

How it works:
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 04:30 PM by ChuckM »

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2020, 05:44 PM »
That "backtracking" really made me cringe:

https://youtu.be/ohyMRATOt5U?t=387

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2020, 06:43 PM »
Safety system you shove down your pants...

Offline notenoughcash

  • Posts: 87
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #71 on: April 27, 2020, 11:52 AM »
biggest safety tango uniform i ever witnessed was when i told my brother to do a simple crosscut on a bit of 1x2 a year or so ago.

he go it on the mitre saw and lined it up fine.  then he put his left hand by his side, right hand on the handle, blade on the wood, no holdown clamp and fired the old girl up.  i have a sliding one so if this went wrong he would have ended up fairly winded.  thankfully it didin't go wrong but he hasnt been allowed to use the mitre saw again. 

just goes to show the saying is true.

dont be scared of the tool or the tool will bite you.

i also think one of the biggest safety violations if beeng scared of it.  a very healty repect by all means but beeing scared is when you get things going wrong becuse you are to busy worrying about what can go wrong so you loose consentration.

i also, in light of what others have said, have notices wandel and john heitz using table saws without riving knifes or blade guardes.

when i get a table saw the riving knife and the guard is staying firmly on the saw, other than when trenching, and if i can, i will use a router for that.
turns out that woodworking is 1% making things you'll use, 4% making bespoke high end firewood, 15% cleaning, and 80% looking for the bl**dy thing you just put down

Offline Birdhunter

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  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #72 on: April 27, 2020, 01:13 PM »
I agree one should not frightened of a tool. But, I think being wary of a tool is smart. When I get antsy about a cut on a table saw or any other tool, I walk away and consider alternatives. I can usually come up with a workaround that doesn’t raise my hackles.
Birdhunter


Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2020, 04:51 AM »
Just an update on using two clamps simultaneously on the Kapex 120.
I have purposely carried on using two clamps whilst cutting long lengths of flat square hardwood only. Mainly because of this thread and what other users have written.
There has been no issues or kick back, even one of my employees has adopted the same method, without issues.
We agreed this should only be tried with completely flat stock.

Ironically, the other day, I needed to trim the lengths on some walnut beads and trims. Some had to be mitred also, so the axillary fences were removed when cutting some angles. 
The larger pieces were clamped, and the small pieces held by my left hand.

Near the end of finishing, I had kick back, the usual sickening bang, followed by the hope that the saw isn’t damaged.

I checked the blade guard and surrounding area, and apart from a piece of walnut loose up in the guard, all seemed fine.
I carried on, and noticed the extraction was not as good as usual.
When I finished, I noticed a hole about 8-9mm in the angled dust port. A piece of walnut obviously hit it directly.

I have done a temporary repair with black silicone, whilst waiting for a replacement to arrive.
Although as I mentioned a few times on here, I look after my tools, I don’t baby them but, was quite upset that the saw took a bit of damage but, thankful it wasn’t a lot worse.

So, the next day, it was back to cutting flat hardwood with two clamps, all good.
Make of it what you will 😉

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2020, 09:46 AM »
Snip.
The larger pieces were clamped, and the small pieces held by my left hand.

Near the end of finishing, I had kick back, the usual sickening bang, followed by the hope that the saw isn’t damaged.

So, the next day, it was back to cutting flat hardwood with two clamps, all good.
Make of it what you will 😉

If my understanding of your description is correct that you were holding one end with a clamp (on the right) and the other with your hand (on the left), then the risk of kickback happening was similar to that of holding the piece with both clamps on either side of the blade, which is your usual approach.

It is not much different from holding one end of a work (say on the left with a clamp or hand), AND using a fixed stop block on the other end (i.e., on the right side of the blade), a practice that increases the risk of launching pieces across the shop. While it is less common to see both clamps used at the same time, the use of fixed stop block as described above is a "mistake" made by many, including magazines.

We're talking about risk here. Using only one clamp on one side will significantly reduce or eliminate the chances of kickback on the mitre saw. 

While on the mitre saws, I came across a DIY kind of video by a couple. He held an angled piece with his bare hand, trying to trim it slightly smaller. Good luck to those DIY-ers who follow their channel, if they aren't aware of the injury risks.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 10:05 AM by ChuckM »

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2020, 09:54 AM »
 @Jiggy Joiner

            Was this kick back of the saw head or did a small off cut get picked up by the blade?


Seth

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2020, 04:24 PM »
@ChuckM no Chuck, when I cut the beads, the larger pieces were clamped on the left only.
When cutting the smaller stuff, when the bang occurred, it was secured by my left hand only, no clamp left or right.
I would have used the clamp on the smaller stuff but, some was moulded and the clamp wouldn’t sit right with it. Just bad luck I guess but, again I was fairly tired.

@SRSemenza Too be honest Seth, I’m not 100% sure, as some off-cuts were longer than others.
Could have been a small off-cut fired upwards? I checked the saw again, and luckily nothing else appears to be damaged.

Offline Vondawg

  • Posts: 381
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2020, 07:48 AM »
One of my favorite features on the 120 is the ability to slide the fence(s) right up to the blade for that zero clearance cut, and keep those small pieces where you want them
There are no mistakes....just new designs.

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3354
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2020, 03:44 PM »
Has anyone come up with a way to clamp small pieces on the Kapex? Pieces that are too short to go under the standard clamp. I just don’t like holding down a piece with my hands.
Birdhunter

Offline Peter Durand

  • Posts: 208
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2020, 04:38 PM »
Has anyone come up with a way to clamp small pieces on the Kapex? Pieces that are too short to go under the standard clamp. I just don’t like holding down a piece with my hands.

Check out the FastCap stick.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2395
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2020, 05:08 PM »
I have the Fastcap finger-saving stick, too. Highly recommended. It can be used on the mitre saw and table saw (cross-cut sled). But you can also modify the bridge block to work like the Fastcap product. Simply replace the strip on the block with a beam (say, 1" x 2" x 14" - 16"), and adhere some friction pad on the end of the beam. Don't become a statistic (6,800 estimated/projected mitre saws injuries a year in the US alone).
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 05:17 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2020, 10:17 PM »
If I have a lot of moulded pieces to cut, I make up a reverse profile block, that sits over the top, and is then clamped. In this case there were only handful, and a bridge wouldn’t sit right on them. I also have a few small push sticks, which most importantly save fingers but, will not remove the risk of off cuts projecting themselves.

I always use the auxiliary fences where possible, along with oak zero tolerance facings

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #83 on: July 15, 2020, 05:06 AM »
An update on using two clamps simultaneously. This is only done with larger dimension, and long lengths of hardwoods.

Always make sure the timber is flat and true, and any supports are the exact same height as each other, and the saw base.
Once the timber is lined up for cutting, both clamps are used, and recently the ends of timber has been clamped also. Cuts are made pulling the cutting head fully back and down, or as far down as the timber width will allow. The blade is always sharp, I keep one aside just for this purpose.

Switch on, and push steadily forward until the cut is complete, switch off, wait for blade to stop, raise cutting head. For real dense hardwoods, the cut is done with a few steady passes.

This works for us, and so far, I cannot find a reason not to continue.
I wouldn’t dream of doing this with warped, twisted, bent or pressure treated timber. If we have really large dimension timber, we use the large radial arm saw, which is in constant use, so making use of the Kapex suits.
I honestly have lost count of how many cuts have been made this way but, it’s a lot, certainly enough to make a conclusion.

Offline phase3

  • Posts: 19
Re: Safety Topic
« Reply #84 on: July 24, 2020, 10:15 PM »
I think it is  important to know how and why accidents happen. I read an article that mentioned almost 80% of accidents on the table saw happen when people reach around the blade to grab a part before it has completely cleared the blade resulting in a kickback drawing that hand back into the blade.

Because of that article I never use a table saw without a good push stick and some sort of out feed table.

I think the more we know about how accidents happen the more likely it is we will avoid them.

This taught me a lesson. Thank you. Most of my mistakes these days are from rushing while fatigued, but this one I would have done just from bad habit, so FWIW this thread helped me for whenever I will next use a table saw.
I'm not using a table saw these days, as the track does nearly everything for me except rip a piece from something slim, but I'm old now and everyone in my memory would grab the part from the table saw at around the time it was clearing the blade. I bet I did it too, but I just can't remember. The move looked so graceful -- Run the piece through, maybe with a safety push stick, but then reach over and give it a little pull from the other side which guides it straight out, and then the piece is in your hand. All the way back to the custom cabinetry shop I worked at in the 1980's, all the workers were thinking about safety, but my (admittedly poor) memory has everyone doing this mistake.

Here's one of my recent mistakes. I was cutting the triangles out of a stair stringer with my TS 55 and the short 800mm track.
Mistake #1:
I prioritized what I thought would be accuracy above what I knew wasn't the safest setup. I wanted to cut against all the lines with the track edge, so in one direction I was plunging the saw in the middle of the 2x12, then driving it toward the edge.
Mistake #2:
I was exhausted but I wanted to finish that riser before ending the day. It's the equivalent of "I bet I can get in one more ski run".
Mistake #3, the real "Oh wow I'm lucky that's as bad as it got":
On the last of the cuts, I plunged and the blade wasn't very close to the vertex of where the tread & riser meet. Instead of leaving that for the jig saw work later, I BACKED UP THE TS 55. Total no-no -- The riving knife wasn't in the groove yet because I'd just finished the plunge. The blade kicked the saw backward, cutting way past the vertex before the saw rode up out of the board and I got it shut off. Just stupidity on my part. I didn't get hurt, so I was lucky for that. Our building code doesn't allow for over-cuts in stair stringers, and that was my last tread/riser cutout to do, so the whole 12 foot 2x12 was now a scrap piece.

On my replacement stringer board, I was well rested and hydrated, I wasn't rushing myself, I drove the saw toward the piece for both the riser and tread cuts, and I didn't bother getting too close to the vertex with the circular saw. The jig saw does a stellar job anyway. When I'm tired I don't recognize when I'm not making good decisions.