Author Topic: Safety Topic (Read 10656 times)

ChuckS · « **Reply #30 on:** April 07, 2020, 12:29 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on April 07, 2020, 11:43 AM

Snip.

define what the difference between push stick and push shoe is? I think people use them interchangeably?

Push Stick-Push Shoe

As it says, push stick is a general term for all of these.

Image from left to right:

Push stick (for use with the band saw, not the table saw), fixed push shoe, adjustable push shoe, and push block.

GoingMyWay · « **Reply #31 on:** April 07, 2020, 12:34 PM »

Quote from: Alex on April 07, 2020, 12:00 PM

I think most people who got an accident knew perfectly well what they were doing and should have done to keep it safe. It's not rocket science.

It may just be my inexperience, but not everything is that intuitive or obvious to me.

For example, using 1 clamp to hold down the workpiece on a miter saw is a good idea. Therefore, I'd think think using a clamp on both sides would be "twice as good" but that's obviously not that case and should not be done.

Same for the rule of not using a fence in conjunction with a miter gauge. I never would have thought on the surface that it would be dangerous if I hadn't heard it and had it explained by others.

As they say, you don't know what you don't know. So I always appreciate safety reminders and explanations.

ChuckS · « **Reply #32 on:** April 07, 2020, 12:50 PM »

Quote from: GoingMyWay on April 07, 2020, 12:34 PM

Snip.

As they say, you don't know what you don't know.

Indeed.

In post #18, Birdhunter related to his SawStop blade guard incident. It has never happened to me as a SawStop user since 2007 or so. Knowing about that incident, I will now be more careful when I do bevel cuts and make sure the fins won't be pushed into the blade. Shop safety is a very complex subject, and awareness of its importance (and our own blind spot) is the first step towards safe woodworking.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #33 on:** April 07, 2020, 01:11 PM »

Quote from: GoingMyWay on April 07, 2020, 12:34 PM

Quote from: Alex on April 07, 2020, 12:00 PM
I think most people who got an accident knew perfectly well what they were doing and should have done to keep it safe. It's not rocket science.

It may just be my inexperience, but not everything is that intuitive or obvious to me.

For example, using 1 clamp to hold down the workpiece on a miter saw is a good idea. Therefore, I'd think think using a clamp on both sides would be "twice as good" but that's obviously not that case and should not be done.

Same for the rule of not using a fence in conjunction with a miter gauge. I never would have thought on the surface that it would be dangerous if I hadn't heard it and had it explained by others.

As they say, you don't know what you don't know. So I always appreciate safety reminders and explanations.

This is a good example, and it shows a short coming with tools. Often they do little to explain the safety devices, other than point to them in a diagram. They might show how to use the safety device(s) on the tool. What is almost never done is explaining the theory behind it, they whys. You example is perfect here, "use the hold down clamp", great, so as you say someone things then more clamps better, nothing is there to explain binding and such. When people get informed of what is going on with it, with a bit further information than just "this is the anti kickback device", or "this prevents the material from kicking back", but explains how such an event happens and why the setup is the is they way it is, people get smarter.

Alex · « **Reply #34 on:** April 07, 2020, 01:56 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on April 07, 2020, 12:28 PM

Quote from: Alex on April 07, 2020, 12:00 PM
I think most people who got an accident knew perfectly well what they were doing and should have done to keep it safe. It's not rocket science.

I would assume people in your part of the world act the same way. When they mess up/do something stupid, it's alway someone else's fault, or a bad product, not them. Time to go get a lawyer.

Dunno. I only know that the kind of litigation Americans are used to is simply not possible here. Most of the cases that are admissable in the US wouldn't even get to court here, and for the few that do there has to be a strong indication the manufacturer is at fault. And then the money awarded is only for proveable costs and/or losses, and mostly measured in thousands and not in the millions.

But besides that, my remark was only meant to indicate most people know what they should do to keep it safe, but just disregard those rules, for various reasons. It has absolutely nothing to do with who is eventually to blame. Which, most of the time, is the person himself.

Jiggy Joiner · « **Reply #35 on:** April 07, 2020, 02:14 PM »

Quote from: GoingMyWay on April 07, 2020, 12:34 PM

Quote from: Alex on April 07, 2020, 12:00 PM
I think most people who got an accident knew perfectly well what they were doing and should have done to keep it safe. It's not rocket science.

It may just be my inexperience, but not everything is that intuitive or obvious to me.

For example, using 1 clamp to hold down the workpiece on a miter saw is a good idea. Therefore, I'd think think using a clamp on both sides would be "twice as good" but that's obviously not that case and should not be done.

Same for the rule of not using a fence in conjunction with a miter gauge. I never would have thought on the surface that it would be dangerous if I hadn't heard it and had it explained by others.

As they say, you don't know what you don't know. So I always appreciate safety reminders and explanations.

Got talking to a colleague yesterday about using two clamps simultaneously. He then reminded me that one of the timber mills we use, has a monster of a radial arm just near the entrance to one of the stock sheds.
This thing has three hydraulic hold down clamps each side of the cutter head, and more often than not, whoever operates it, uses all six clamps to hold the big pieces of rough sawn stock, whilst cutting.
They don’t seem to suffer kickback, well at least we’ve not witnessed it. I know this is cutting stock of a much larger size but, the principal must be the same or somewhere near?
Bearing in mind the majority of their sawn timber is not flat or straight.

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #36 on:** April 07, 2020, 03:11 PM »

@Jiggy Joiner
I follow your thoughts.. Since I got the KS120 I have on occasions used both clamps.
There’s many aspects and variables that comes into play here.
- Is the piece flat?
- Is it well supported, in all its length and width?
- Speed of movement of the head as the operator moves it?
- Are all levers securely locked, bevel/angle locks?

The security of using two or more clamps, and keeping the free hand well away from any danger zones is something I would prefer. Damage to the saw, well it’s replaceable.
If the above criteria’s are met, I think the risks are low (others; chime in if you disagree or want to add)

One factor I’ve learned, in practice and from seasoned carpenters:
Let The Tool (Saw) Do The Job!

With miter saws I see too often that the operator almost hits the piece way too fast. You wouldn’t do that on a table saw?
In fear of warped timber or timber with tension, go slow on both rpm’s and lower the head slowly. This way if there’s movement (tension/warped) the sawblade has time to “correct” it’s cutting path.

Bob D. · « **Reply #37 on:** April 07, 2020, 03:47 PM »

As much as I like Matthias and all the great projects and videos he has put out for everyone to enjoy I do not hold him up as a example of how to work safely.

In many instances he does not use guards when it is easy to do so, he exposes more blade on the TS than needed, and will often poo-poo those who take exception with his what appears to be carelessness on camera for all to see and copy. He will justify it as he knows what he's doing. Just as lame as the 'guard has been removed for photographic clarity" BS that the DIY and WWing shows flash on the screen. Once you've seen a spinning blade move through a piece of wood how many more times do you need to see it.

Matthias is not the only guilty party and I am probably only slightly better with my personal safety habits but I'm not the one with a couple hundred thousand followers on YT.

All the DIY shows such as TOH and all the rest are just as bad if not worse.

ChuckS · « **Reply #38 on:** April 07, 2020, 03:56 PM »

The use of two clamps on each side of a typical mitre saw blade at the same time may or may not result in binding and/or kickback depending on so many factors such as the condition and type of the lumber, its size, vibration, etc. No one can be sure if or when the binding could happen if both clamps are used together at once. It hasn't happened does not mean it doesn't happen.

On the other hand, one thing that is 100% sure is that using just one clamp with the off-cut freely to go will cause zero binding. The question is why take the risk? Safety often is about risk management, and in my shop I use just one clamp, and if the other end needs to be supported, I get it supported.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #39 on:** April 07, 2020, 04:12 PM »

Quote from: ChuckM on April 07, 2020, 03:56 PM

The use of two clamps on each side of a typical mitre saw blade at the same time may or may not result in binding and/or kickback depending on so many factors such as the condition and type of the lumber, its size, vibration, etc. No one can be sure if or when the binding could happen if both clamps are used together at once. It hasn't happened does not mean it doesn't happen.

On the other hand, one thing that is 100% sure is that using just one clamp with the off-cut freely to go will cause zero binding. The question is why take the risk? Safety often is about risk management, and in my shop I use just one clamp, and if the other end needs to be supported, I get it supported.

Yeah, a saw mill and miter saw not the same thing. A big factor is saw mills have basically endless power. It's hard to compare different tools/setups as you don't know what the manufacture has based their design on, tested, experienced over time.

All the talk on miter saws is surprising to me. I haven't considered them very un-safe. And I don't clamp stuff unless I have some very special setup going on. The few times things have got eventful I knew in advance it would happen and planned for it to happen (small end cut, weird angle, you know something is probably going to fly, so take precautions for that). Miter saws not high on my fear factor list.

Tools like jointers and routers, now those are ones that make me nervous. High Speed or Large cutting that you don't see when using, and keeps running for a while after you stop, and with routers if not in a plunge base, you might set the thing down and it's still spinning or grab the bottom of the tool. Tools where you see the blade and it's rather stationary or on a guide worry me far less.

ChuckS · « **Reply #40 on:** April 07, 2020, 04:14 PM »

A former co-worker, in his 70s, cut his fingers on the table saw as he tried to remove an off-cut BEFORE the blade came to a stop. His first major table saw injury after over 40 years of hobby woodworking. Several months later, he said the pain was still not completely gone. Not sure if it was a psychological thing or the nerve pain never went away. His wife insisted that he get either a Festool track saw or a SawStop if he wanted to continue his hobby. He picked the former because in his words "I don't do a lot these days," and the SawStop was a lot pricier.

People can explain to themselves why they don't need or want the blade guard or riving knife installed when it does not obstruct the cuts. I wish them good luck and hope they will never find themselves hurt when using machines.

But these 604 pages of table saw incidents are a stark reminder that we should try as best as we can to use blade guards and riving knives whenever possible:

https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=&acc_keyword=%22table+saw%22&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=04&endday=07&endyear=2002&startmonth=04&startday=07&startyear=2021&InspNr=

Click on the summary to see more details.

Remember countless table saw injuries are not reported or included in those pages.

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #41 on:** April 07, 2020, 04:22 PM »

Quote from: Bob D. on April 07, 2020, 03:47 PM

As much as I like Matthias and all the great projects and videos he has put out for everyone to enjoy I do not hold him up as a example of how to work safely.

In many instances he does not use guards when it is easy to do so, he exposes more blade on the TS than needed, and will often poo-poo those who take exception with his what appears to be carelessness on camera for all to see and copy. He will justify it as he knows what he's doing. Just as lame as the 'guard has been removed for photographic clarity" BS that the DIY and WWing shows flash on the screen. Once you've seen a spinning blade move through a piece of wood how many more times do you need to see it.

Matthias is not the only guilty party and I am probably only slightly better with my personal safety habits but I'm not the one with a couple hundred thousand followers on YT.

All the DIY shows such as TOH and all the rest are just as bad if not worse.

After seeing the video, I agree with you, no blade guard where there could easily have been one. I didn’t notice if he had the riving knife in place though. Nothing much to learn, safety wise.

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #42 on:** April 07, 2020, 04:25 PM »

How would you think of securing those times you use a end stop on the miter saw?
Many, including me are using some sort of end stop for repetitive cuts. This way one of the pieces are constricted to move after the cut is made.

ChuckS · « **Reply #43 on:** April 07, 2020, 04:25 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on April 07, 2020, 04:12 PM

Snip.
All the talk on miter saws is surprising to me. I haven't considered them very un-safe.

Here're a couple examples of mitre saw injuries:

https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/accidentsearch.accident_detail?id=202527867
https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/accidentsearch.accident_detail?id=202468286

ChuckS · « **Reply #44 on:** April 07, 2020, 04:31 PM »

Quote from: FestitaMakool on April 07, 2020, 04:25 PM

How would you think of securing those times you use a end stop on the miter saw?
Many, including me are using some sort of end stop for repetitive cuts. This way one of the pieces are constricted to move after the cut is made.

Use a spring-loaded stop block as featured in the Tricks of the Trade in Popular Woodworking Magazine October 2010 #185:
https://cdn.instructables.com/FCM/5O8H/IZ6BX79J/FCM5O8HIZ6BX79J.LARGE.jpg?auto=webp&fit=bounds

It can also be used on the table saw cross-cut sled.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #45 on:** April 07, 2020, 04:41 PM »

Quote from: ChuckM on April 07, 2020, 04:25 PM

Quote from: DeformedTree on April 07, 2020, 04:12 PM
Snip.
All the talk on miter saws is surprising to me. I haven't considered them very un-safe.

Here're a couple of examples of mitre saw injuries:

https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/accidentsearch.accident_detail?id=202527867
https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/accidentsearch.accident_detail?id=202468286

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't implying I don't think people can injury themselves with a miter saw. Just that it's not the tool that would jump to the top of my dangerous tool list. It would be one of the lower ones on the powertool list. This is why I was surprised to see people talking about miter saws.

A lot of the really dangerous ones are small tools. Like dremel/cut off tools. Oscillating tools. Basically tools that are a blade just hanging out there looking for something.

ChuckS · « **Reply #46 on:** April 07, 2020, 04:44 PM »

https://www.wwgoa.com/article/shop-accident-statistics-woodworking-safety/#

I can't verify the above statistics or estimates.

martin felder · « **Reply #47 on:** April 07, 2020, 05:04 PM »

This is not a miter saw I currently own. Assuming one is not using very wide boards and the miter saw is not setup for portability, this saw pictures would seem like a great option. I posted this picture on another thread but this seems to be where this topic is being discussed. I do not use clamps much on my current miter saw (the Kapex), but I do not use it for wide cuts (Table saw for that) or compound miters (for a woodshop not a job site for crown). I find the hand-manual clamps not so practical, but I am starting to re-think my priorities. However, if I had that saw with pneumatic clamps, I would probably use the clamps with every cut, which is what I do with my slider table saw that has pneumatic clamps. As for the binding issue, I am not sure if it would be a problem or not using both horizontal and/or vertical at the same time.

ChuckS · « **Reply #48 on:** April 07, 2020, 05:11 PM »

The pneumatic clamps are really nice, especially for repetitive work. If the feet can be swapped to wider ones, they can even handle small pieces.

I don't quite understand why you say the Kapex hold-down clamp is not practical. I use it 95% or more of the time when I use the Kapex. It is quick release, unlike the screw-type that we find of all other mitre saws. The screw-type is so impractical that I know of no one single mitre saw user who uses it (at all or on a regular basis).

ChuckS · « **Reply #49 on:** April 07, 2020, 05:25 PM »

Quote from: FestitaMakool on April 07, 2020, 04:22 PM

Snip.

After seeing the video, I agree with you, no blade guard where there could easily have been one. I didn’t notice if he had the riving knife in place though. Nothing much to learn, safety wise.

If he had used the blade guard regularly, he would not have cut his fingers in the first place, and produced the video that explained why his fingers were cut. But as we all know, many prolific YouTube content producers use their table saws without any guard and/or riving knife at all. Ironically, they are the ones (given the higher level of distraction) who could get added protection from using the safety gear.

Jiggy Joiner · « **Reply #50 on:** April 07, 2020, 05:26 PM »

Quote from: martin felder on April 07, 2020, 05:04 PM

This is not a miter saw I currently own. Assuming one is not using very wide boards and the miter saw is not setup for portability, this saw pictures would seem like a great option. I posted this picture on another thread but this seems to be where this topic is being discussed. I do not use clamps much on my current miter saw (the Kapex), but I do not use it for wide cuts (Table saw for that) or compound miters (for a woodshop not a job site for crown). I find the hand-manual clamps not so practical, but I am starting to re-think my priorities. However, if I had that saw with pneumatic clamps, I would probably use the clamps with every cut, which is what I do with my slider table saw that has pneumatic clamps. As for the binding issue, I am not sure if it would be a problem or not using both horizontal and/or vertical at the same time.

(Attachment Link)

I posted earlier mentioning a large industrial saw at a timber mill we use, has three hydraulic clamps each side of the cutting head. Nearly every time an operator uses it, they lock down all six clamps.
They’re cutting all kinds including rough sawn, non flat timber in large dimensions, without seemingly suffering any binding or kick back.

Jiggy Joiner · « **Reply #51 on:** April 07, 2020, 05:32 PM »

@FestitaMakool Thanks, I think we share the same or similar thoughts, whatever happens, I value my limbs more than any tool or machine.

Alex · « **Reply #52 on:** April 07, 2020, 05:45 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on April 07, 2020, 04:41 PM

A lot of the really dangerous ones are small tools. Like dremel/cut off tools. Oscillating tools. Basically tools that are a blade just hanging out there looking for something.

Kidding, right?

Nobody accidentally cut of 3 fingers with a Dremel. Only injury you'll get from an oscillating multitool is burning your fingers when you try to change the blade right after you've made a cut.

Of the most used powertools the most dangerous ones are the table saw, circular saw and chain saw, as the slightest mistake can lead to missing body parts or an arterial bleeding.

ChuckS · « **Reply #53 on:** April 07, 2020, 05:49 PM »

Circular saws!

They may look innocent, but they can amputate or kill:

https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?acc_keyword=%22Circular%20Saw%22&keyword_list=on

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #54 on:** April 07, 2020, 05:52 PM »

Quote from: Jiggy Joiner on April 07, 2020, 05:32 PM

@FestitaMakool Thanks, I think we share the same or similar thoughts, whatever happens, I value my limbs more than any tool or machine.

Thanks the same!

I’ve used a miter saw for a whole lot over at least 20 years. Over that period I’ve had a few scary throwout and kickbacks. Crown mouldings without support and clamping is one, short pieces another, not well supported pieces yet another one. Wet heavy treated timber too.
So, now also knowing two close friends with sewn on thumbs.. my lefty are not on the saws table anymore. A rule I had till now is holding the piece with my hand placed outside of the table’s end. The end of the table is blocking my hand from moving to the right. Short pieces have been held in place with long scrap pieces of wood - goggles on and stand back!

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #55 on:** April 07, 2020, 06:00 PM »

Quote from: Alex on April 07, 2020, 05:45 PM

Quote from: DeformedTree on April 07, 2020, 04:41 PM
A lot of the really dangerous ones are small tools. Like dremel/cut off tools. Oscillating tools. Basically tools that are a blade just hanging out there looking for something.

Kidding, right?

Nobody accidentally cut of 3 fingers with a Dremel. Only injury you'll get from an oscillating multitool is burning your fingers when you try to change the blade right after you've made a cut.

Of the most used powertools the most dangerous ones are the table saw, circular saw and chain saw, as the slightest mistake can lead to missing body parts or an arterial bleeding.

- They’re eating eyes.. Dremel and their counterparts are extremely dangerous to your eyesight.
But if you cut yourself they usually make clean cuts. Surgeons are not fan of toothed saw blade cuts - they make a terrible mess.. Freely spoken from a surgeon.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #56 on:** April 07, 2020, 06:17 PM »

Quote from: Alex on April 07, 2020, 05:45 PM

Quote from: DeformedTree on April 07, 2020, 04:41 PM
A lot of the really dangerous ones are small tools. Like dremel/cut off tools. Oscillating tools. Basically tools that are a blade just hanging out there looking for something.

Kidding, right?

Nobody accidentally cut of 3 fingers with a Dremel. Only injury you'll get from an oscillating multitool is burning your fingers when you try to change the blade right after you've made a cut.

Of the most used powertools the most dangerous ones are the table saw, circular saw and chain saw, as the slightest mistake can lead to missing body parts or an arterial bleeding.

No, not kidding. You have the debris that comes off as mentioned but people hurt themselves because the loose track of where the blade is while moving the tool, the part, and both hands around. It's an fully expose blade, no margin there. Fully agree on chainsaw, now you are in the fully exposed blade catagory. On multi-tools, like the one I have, it's battery powered, it dies, you pull the battery off, put a new one on and the tool takes off running (yes, that can be a design issue of the tool, but that's the case for all tools, the design of each comes into play). Also with the multi tool you may have moved the blade in a different position than you had it all day, you also are using them often to get into awkward spots. It's very easy to find you turning it and having a running blade right at your face.

Cut off tools, multi-tools and their big even brother the angle grinder get folks in trouble fast.

jimbo51 · « **Reply #57 on:** April 08, 2020, 06:50 AM »

I think I still have a recording of Ask This Old House which contains one of the worst safety violations I have ever seen.

Tommy Silva is helping lay down some wood flooring. To fit a piece at a doorway, he does a rip cut in a piece while holding in his bare hand. I still cannot believe they put that out as acceptable behavior.

Birdhunter · « **Reply #58 on:** April 08, 2020, 01:03 PM »

I own a Festool battery jigsaw. It’s a great tool.

I NOW store the saw in the Systainer with the battery removed. This is after grabbing the saw out of the Systainer and having it fire up. Scared me. No blood shed. Lesson learned.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #59 on:** April 08, 2020, 01:12 PM »

Quote from: jimbo51 on April 08, 2020, 06:50 AM

I think I still have a recording of Ask This Old House which contains one of the worst safety violations I have ever seen.

Tommy Silva is helping lay down some wood flooring. To fit a piece at a doorway, he does a rip cut in a piece while holding in his bare hand. I still cannot believe they put that out as acceptable behavior.

TOH, NYWS, ATOH. are pretty much the origin of "some safety features have been removed for tv". You will see lots of bad things be done, and it goes back to it all being normal to the folks. No one is reviewing it to really think if what was done is right. And if your editing later having a screen show "footage not found", everytime they go to cut something, just isn't going to work.

In the case of TOH, you basically have a situation were Tom is using his own tool, the show is just another job of his company. He's not getting paid to show off the tools and such (well, till now with Festool sponsorship). He was there just to do the job. Unless they set up the scene to be a focus on safety, they probably won't put much thought to it. While in-correct use of a tool probably falls under OSHA, you can tell they are more concerned on making sure everyone has safety glasses, harness, hard hats and other stuff that if his people don't have, can get him in trouble real fast.