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Author Topic: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?  (Read 23185 times)

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Offline Julian Tracy

  • Posts: 529
    • Renovation By Design, Inc.
Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2015, 09:23 AM »
Well...

That will certainly alleviate everyone's hesitation about the durability of the jigsaws... not.

It just seems like just a word for word repeat of the legal warranty language with very little actual new information addressing any of the concerns raised in these threads.

JT

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Offline richy3333

  • Posts: 201
Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2015, 09:37 AM »
Sometimes you just have to read what isn't there to decipher what is being said?

I have to say that Festool UK have always been very good and helpful to me which is why I have bought more Festool products.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2015, 11:56 AM »
This is from the Magnusson-Moss Act:

"Warrantors cannot require that only branded parts be used with the product in order to retain the warranty."

Link, statement above is found under "Requirements";

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act

Tom

Offline SittingElf

  • Posts: 1374
  • 66 Systainers and rising! YIKES!
Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2015, 12:10 PM »
What you are referring to is 15 USC 2302(c). To wit:

(c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by Commission
No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer’s using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if—
(1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and
(2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest.
The Commission shall identify in the Federal Register, and permit public comment on, all applications for waiver of the prohibition of this subsection, and shall publish in the Federal Register its disposition of any such application, including the reasons therefor.


I'm sure Festool is aware of this Act, and from reading much of the whole Act, I think they have outs for damage CAUSED by non-Festool components.

Classic example is the early Dust Deputy that was killing CT circuit boards when operated on Festools Dust Collectors.

Nonetheless, there IS the Act, and Festool must abide by the code...and if exceptions are made, they must have been approved by the FTC.

Cheers,
Frank
Woodworking is 3% talent and 97% paying attention to the FOG! 

hammerfelderowners.com

Offline andy5405

  • Posts: 406
Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2015, 12:45 PM »
I would like to say I have followed this thread/debacle with interest but really it was out of sheer boredom. However there is one really really relevant question that hasn't been asked.....


































Has there been a full moon lately?

Offline wow

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Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #65 on: April 15, 2015, 02:34 PM »
Good one! There's another question that HAS been asked but not answered -

Was the OP taken care of in a manner satisfactory to him and Festool? In other words, was he offered a solution that he accepted?

I think an answer to this question would go long ways toward putting the concerns to rest. I await a response from Brent...
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 03:13 PM by wow »
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9888
Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #66 on: April 15, 2015, 02:48 PM »
Wow,
I believe he was offered a solution but decided not to take Festool up on their offer.

Also, Brent has already responded...
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 02:51 PM by Cheese »

Offline Davej

  • Posts: 630
Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #67 on: April 15, 2015, 02:48 PM »
I rang festool a year or so ago to ask if their metal jigsaw blades were suitable for cutting stainless, the advice from the tech guy was no but Bosch do !
I dont mind growing old but i refuse to grow up

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9888
Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #68 on: April 15, 2015, 02:53 PM »
I rang festool a year or so ago to ask if their metal jigsaw blades were suitable for cutting stainless, the advice from the tech guy was no but Bosch do !

Whoops...

Offline orm8426

  • Posts: 109
Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #69 on: April 15, 2015, 03:11 PM »
I rang festool a year or so ago to ask if their metal jigsaw blades were suitable for cutting stainless, the advice from the tech guy was no but Bosch do !

Whoops...

It was never about the blade. That was just a scape-goat for Festool to justify their original stance on the warranty claim and a way for the new forum administrator to try to hastily brush the thread under the carpet without properly considering the backlash it would create  (over and above the initial complaints).

Let's just hope this has been a lesson learned; that the flip side of the positives of the forum in terms of almost free advertising and goodwill generation is significant backlash if Festool fall below the standards of customer service they allude to delivering.

I for one have just ordered the Mafell P1CC instead of the Carvex with accessory systainer. Not as many accessories for the same money, but hopefully a more robust machine that won't break it I accidentally nick a screw. 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 03:15 PM by orm8426 »

Offline wow

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Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #70 on: April 15, 2015, 03:17 PM »
Wow,
I believe he was offered a solution but decided not to take Festool up on their offer.

Also, Brent has already responded...

Sorry if I missed that they offered a solution (unless it was the $355 repair solution that made no sense.)

If they couldn't agree on a solution with the OP, I consider that a fairly 'Epic Fail' for Festool. Unless the OP was totally unreasonable - like demanding a new saw?

I wish they'd make a clear and concise statement about THIS incident, and not just re-quote the warranty. There are just too many unanswered questions for this topic to die...
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9888
Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #71 on: April 15, 2015, 03:29 PM »
Wow,
I believe he was offered a solution but decided not to take Festool up on their offer.

Also, Brent has already responded...

Sorry if I missed that they offered a solution (unless it was the $355 repair solution that made no sense.)

If they couldn't agree on a solution with the OP, I consider that a fairly 'Epic Fail' for Festool. Unless the OP was totally unreasonable - like demanding a new saw?

I wish they'd make a clear and concise statement about THIS incident, and not just re-quote the warranty. There are just too many unanswered questions for this topic to die...

Here it tis:

Re: Festool will not cover repair of jigsaw at 1year into a 3 year warrenty
« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2015, 08:31 PM »
Brent:
I spoke with the OP this afternoon to confirm with him all of the information. He was using a non Festool wood blade to cut through the wood top and cut into a screw that was attaching the cabinets together.
Our warranty states "This warranty is void if the tool is not used, operated, repaired and maintained in accordance with the tool's instruction manual." In the manual it states " Festool does not condone nor support the use of any non-Festool engineered, designed, and manufactured accessories or consumables with Festool products.
 We discussed his options for repair of the tool which he declined.  [eek]

Offline Staniam

  • Posts: 714
  • Enjoy what you do. Build something.
Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #72 on: April 15, 2015, 03:42 PM »
And how do we know what those options were? For all we know Festoop could have offered him the repair for only shipping cost. Or they could have offered him the repair for $500. We do not know. Do you really think Festool, or any other company is going to discuss this kind of situation on an open forum? Even if Festool took care of the customer for free they probably would not state that. Have all of you been able to make every one of your customers happy? I work for The Orange Box and I know first hand how much we bend over backwards to help our customers and make things right even if we aren't obligated to and reputations are built that way. Do we not agree that Festool has a reputation for doing what's right? Even then no individual or company large or small will ever make every customer happy. Whether the rest of us agree that Festool did what they could here, does not matter. We do not know the whole story and for all we know the OP could have been exaggerating. We. Do. Not. Know. So let's move on and chop this up as an aberation.

Go ahead with the backlash, I'll come back to read this ambiguous thread once I'm off.
LA Lakers - Oakland Athletics
The Arsenal: Festool - PDC, CXS, RO 125, TS55 REQ, OF 1010 EQ, CT MIDI;  Bosch - JS572EBL, JS120, 1294VSK, PS22

Offline Julian Tracy

  • Posts: 529
    • Renovation By Design, Inc.
Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #73 on: April 15, 2015, 06:43 PM »
You're right - we don't know.   But the fact is, the perceived durability of those jigsaws has been distinctly tarnished by the thought of it being totaled by a simple run-in with a screw, so this particular case scenario is what's being analyzed and discussed.

And in regards to this new perception of the possibility of these jigsaws being relative lightweights, durability-wise, neither Festool nor any of the Festool diehards or apologizers have said anything to minimize this new fear in possible buyers of the saw.

JT


Offline Staniam

  • Posts: 714
  • Enjoy what you do. Build something.
Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #74 on: April 15, 2015, 07:47 PM »
You're right - we don't know.   But the fact is, the perceived durability of those jigsaws has been distinctly tarnished by the thought of it being totaled by a simple run-in with a screw, so this particular case scenario is what's being analyzed and discussed.

And in regards to this new perception of the possibility of these jigsaws being relative lightweights, durability-wise, neither Festool nor any of the Festool diehards or apologizers have said anything to minimize this new fear in possible buyers of the saw.

JT

Very true, you bring up a good point and I think people will have to decide whether or not they want to continue with this thread or not. I think if there are legitimate durability problems with the Carvex people would have mentioned it. I haven't had any issues with mine and I've used it to cut steal, aluminum, flashing all the way to 4×6 lumber. Never flinched and I have owned the cordless and now own the corded barrell grip.

I trully believe there is more to the story than "I hit a screw and the saw died". Give me a break. And I'll bet people may be thinking the same thing. Just my feeling atleast.

As I said, let's just chalk this situation up as an aberation.
LA Lakers - Oakland Athletics
The Arsenal: Festool - PDC, CXS, RO 125, TS55 REQ, OF 1010 EQ, CT MIDI;  Bosch - JS572EBL, JS120, 1294VSK, PS22

Offline BMAC

  • Posts: 160
  • BMAC Construction & Consulting Ltd.
Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #75 on: April 15, 2015, 08:57 PM »
What you are referring to is 15 USC 2302(c). To wit:

(c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by Commission
No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer’s using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if—
(1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and
(2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest.
The Commission shall identify in the Federal Register, and permit public comment on, all applications for waiver of the prohibition of this subsection, and shall publish in the Federal Register its disposition of any such application, including the reasons therefor.


I'm sure Festool is aware of this Act, and from reading much of the whole Act, I think they have outs for damage CAUSED by non-Festool components.

Classic example is the early Dust Deputy that was killing CT circuit boards when operated on Festools Dust Collectors.

Nonetheless, there IS the Act, and Festool must abide by the code...and if exceptions are made, they must have been approved by the FTC.

Cheers,
Frank


Here in Canada warranties are handled much the same as the magnussen moss antitrust act in the USA.

As a form of consumer protection for Canadians the Competition Act is designed so that OEM manufacturers cannot claim a monopoly and bind consumers to only buy from them. These are better known as ‘anti-consumer’ practices and are very openly proclaimed as being illegal in the Competition Act and the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act.

Here’s an example from the US Federal Trade Commission (FTC) better explaining what the law in the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act states:

“Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.

For example; Quote

“In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags.  Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.”

This above law can be used in many different situations like getting your home appliances serviced by third-party service providers, and still keeping the warranty valid.

In the case of ink or toner cartridges, using remanufactured ink or toner is legally NOT going to void your warranty unless the OEM manufacturer is ready to take action to prove that the remanufactured ink or toner cartridge caused the printer or copier to fail, and in most cases this is highly unlikely." End quote.

Kind of like Ford insisting that their warranty is void because you used a Fram oil filter instead of the Ford branded filter. Simply doesn't happen and nor should it in this case.

So in keeping with this thread about "how many of us use non-Festool blades?" And vis-a-vis Festool stating unilaterally that use of non-festool will void the warranty is patently counter to the legislation in BOTH Canada and the U.S. The onus is on Festool to PROVE that the non-festool consumable in this case was responsible for or caused the tool failure, period.

« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 09:07 PM by BMAC »
Bruce
BMAC Construction & Consulting Ltd.

Support services for the Fire and Flood Restoration Industry. Specializing in custom cabinetry restoration and millwork.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7791
Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #76 on: April 16, 2015, 04:01 AM »

I trully believe there is more to the story than "I hit a screw and the saw died". Give me a break. And I'll bet people may be thinking the same thing. Just my feeling atleast.


Yeah, I think the same thing. Very odd story and I take it with a very big grain of salt. People focus too much on that, while common sense should tell them a jigsaw doesn't break that easily from hitting a screw. I guess the Festool repair facility also knows this, and denied warranty repair because it was clear something else was going on.

Unfortunately Brent Shively, Festool employee, didn't realise he dropped a bomb when he said warranty repair is denied because of use of a 3rd party consumable. That's what really got people worried, and for good reason. It would be out of this world if you can't use 3rd party consumables with your Festools.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 09:13 AM by Alex »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9888
Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #77 on: April 16, 2015, 09:08 AM »

I trully believe there is more to the story than "I hit a screw and the saw died". Give me a break. And I'll bet people may be thinking the same thing. Just my feeling atleast.


Yeah, I think the same thing. Very odd story and I take it with a very big grain of salt. People focus too much on that, while common sense should tell them a jigsaw doesn't break that easily from hitting a screw. I guess the Festool repair facility also knows this, and denied warranty repair because it was clear something else was going on.

Unfortunatel Brent Shively, Festool employee, didn't realise he dropped a bomb when he said warranty repair is denied because of use of a 3rd party consumable. That's what really got people worried, and for good reason. It would be out of this world if you can't use 3rd party consumables with your Festools.

Well I'll be the party to 3rd that conclusion. It was a strange thing from the very beginning, and the OP only posted twice early-on and then never posted again. Something funny there for a new jigsaw to just suddenly quit working and upon receipt/review of the tool, Festool also came to that conclusion.

However, I think Festool could have done a lot better job in conveying their warranty decision to the FOG members, rather than just quoting their warranty policy word for word, and repeating it twice. They had to know that their decision was under the microscope, and they could have crafted/wordsmithed a policy statement that would have allayed any members warranty angst, while still upholding their technical decision. In the medical world, it's called bedside manner.   [poke]   

Offline promhandicam

  • Posts: 205
Re: Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?
« Reply #78 on: April 16, 2015, 06:47 PM »
The moral of the story is surely that if / when you send a tool in for repair, that you make sure that there are no third party accessories sent with it.