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Author Topic: Festool price rant  (Read 15966 times)

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Offline backhoebb

  • Posts: 14
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2018, 06:18 PM »
I think jg summed up many of our thoughts precisely. as Festool prices continue to rise I will be either more inlined towards brands like maffel and metabo. expensive but with real quality to show for it.


 I am not offended by Festool doing this, I'm concerned the company is going to force us, actual users, to look elsewhere for tools. I've always believed in paying for quality,  buy my hand tools on my vacations to Switzerland. but I'm sorry, 720 is just too much for a mft3, this goes for more and more of there tools to.

I am a long time believer and Festool and will continue to buy there "gamechanger tools" but the added prices will have me looking elseware for the rest of them.

-Robert 

 
festool collection: hk55,55" guide rail, fsk420 rail, rip fence, ct 26, mft, CMS-vl, TSC55

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Offline LooseSox

  • Posts: 145
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2018, 06:21 PM »
Look at all you guys with the rookie numbers... try come to Austalia and drop a measly $1335 for a MFT3 🤣

Yes, nothing gets cheaper in life but having an annual increase of 3 to 5 percent on what is already top tier pricing for tools that haven't changed in near a decade is a bit of a stretch. Especially when compaines like Bosch and Makita are making huge leaps with some of their tools and prices are static, if not coming down!

Offline James Biddle

  • Posts: 162
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2018, 08:27 PM »
The good thing about all of these price increases for me is in recouping my investment when I sell.  The bad news for Festool is there are now fewer buyers at the top end market because those people bought my tools. 

The innovative tools that Festool's produced that I still feel compelled to hang onto?  My Domino, Vac-SYS, my partner's Conturo (jury's still out on the HKC saw).  My 5 remaining sanders, 2 drills, 2 routers, jigsaw, 2 vacuums, MFT/3 have all been equalled or surpassed by the competition (in my mind) and are open to replacement.  I've sold the Kapex, 3 sanders, 2 TS55 saws, many tracks; the buyer got them cheaper than new and I recouped the majority of my initial investment.

An increasing pricing strategy will always collapse at some point.  There has to be someone new at the entry level to pay the new price. If I can sell my Festool for my initial investment and head up to one brand or down to another with only the cost differential from what I paid several years ago until now, why not?  There's no penalty for switching.  It creates the exact opposite effect as brand loyalty.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 443
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2018, 12:28 PM »
Look at all you guys with the rookie numbers... try come to Austalia and drop a measly $1335 for a MFT3 🤣

Yes, nothing gets cheaper in life but having an annual increase of 3 to 5 percent on what is already top tier pricing for tools that haven't changed in near a decade is a bit of a stretch. Especially when compaines like Bosch and Makita are making huge leaps with some of their tools and prices are static, if not coming down!

We’re going to see price increases from Bosch, Makita and Stanley Dewalt B&D this year.  We’re going to have to absorb some price increases across the board. 

I would have like to see some refinement in things like the routers and battery platforms.  If Bosch finally brings their track saw to the US/Canadian market, their will be a huge shake-up in the track saw world.  The Mafell made Bosch Track Saw is a seriously good Track Saw for it’s price point.
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 489
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2018, 05:30 PM »

We’re going to see price increases from Bosch, Makita and Stanley Dewalt B&D this year.  We’re going to have to absorb some price increases across the board. 
[/quote]

I have a DeWalt combo kit with 20V Li-Ion drill and impact driver with two 1.3Ah batteries, charger and case that I bought when the were first introduced in 2011 for $199...the same kit is available on Amazon today for $149.  Relentless price increases just like Festool!!

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1760
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2018, 06:18 PM »
Having standardized prices is a good thing as was mentioned by others,  race to the bottom pricing isn't good for anyone, and thus why so many companies have shifted to this model.
Good for all, except for the customers.
This kind of price fixing is illegal in many countries for exactly that reason.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2501
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2018, 07:37 PM »
Having standardized prices is a good thing as was mentioned by others,  race to the bottom pricing isn't good for anyone, and thus why so many companies have shifted to this model.
Good for all, except for the customers.
This kind of price fixing is illegal in many countries for exactly that reason.
I have a problem with price fixing in case of monopoly or shortage of essential goods. Otherwise I don't care. If Toyota decides to sell their autos for $1000000 a piece its their loss, I would buy Honda.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 10:46 PM by Svar »

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 443
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2018, 09:34 PM »

We’re going to see price increases from Bosch, Makita and Stanley Dewalt B&D this year.  We’re going to have to absorb some price increases across the board. 

I have a DeWalt combo kit with 20V Li-Ion drill and impact driver with two 1.3Ah batteries, charger and case that I bought when the were first introduced in 2011 for $199...the same kit is available on Amazon today for $149.  Relentless price increases just like Festool!!
[/quote]

The price increases haven’t happened yet.  They’re slated for the fall.  Festool is one of the most over margined tools in the world.  Festool is probably making 60% margins on their tools.  There really isn’t much rhyme or reason to the price increases.  Europe has low inflation and stable prices, wage inflation is low ect...

Festool is simply hiking the prices for the sake of hiking them.   
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9787
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2018, 10:17 PM »
I have a problem with price fixing in case of monopoly or shortage of essential goods. Otherwise I don't care. If Toyota decides to sell their autos for $1000000 a piece its their loss, I buy Honda.

I buy neither...

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1398
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2018, 11:49 PM »
Having standardized prices is a good thing as was mentioned by others,  race to the bottom pricing isn't good for anyone, and thus why so many companies have shifted to this model.
Good for all, except for the customers.
This kind of price fixing is illegal in many countries for exactly that reason.

It's not price fixing.   If Festool called up Mafell and other members of the Track Saw Manufactures Association of Earth and decided on a price they would all charge for track saws, that would be price fixing. This sort of action is taken seriously in most all countries including countries like the US.

Festool makes the products and says it cost X amount. There is no price fixing when the maker of it decides the price on their own. That's what every product made has. One company can not "price fix" by itself.

A company like Festool does not have to sell thru 3rd parties.  They could just sell them all themselves and the price would be the price just like it is now.  They give others the ability to sell Festool products and in exchange those re-sellers agree to the price. 

When you don't control the price across the board you get all forms of problem, mainly scammers. People go "price hunting" find some shop with a price much lower than the rest, so they buy from it and think they are getting a deal.  Maybe the product will ship, maybe they never see it, or maybe random charges end up on credit card that can't be explained, or hidden fees.  Have a problem, oops that website doesn't exist anymore, where did they go.  And will the people who got taken say "I made a mistake and didn't buy from a reputable shop?"  No, they will go online and curse the manufacture.   Having the price be the same means everyone is on the same page, people buy from where they feel is reputable, or maybe they liked the staff, or they buy from the local store since the online place is no cheaper and it means they can have the product that day and not pay shipping.

Beyond scammers, it becomes the race to the bottom.  Product cost 1000 USD.  Someone decides they can cut it to 990 USD.  Suddenly other retailers find no one is buying because people cared that much about 10 bucks (same people who drive cross town to save 2 cents on gas and thing they are "saving").  So now everyone drops 10 bucks.  Then a different shop drops 15 bucks...... Cycle continues.  Now it becomes who blinks first.  How many places can cut margin and still keep the lights on due to a silly war a few dollars at a time.  Shop after Shop bails, consumers get mad at loss of retailers they liked.  This keeps going until there is one left standing, which is almost certainly going to be the one that started the largest, so someplace like Amazon wins, and then once the last competitor is gone after the price hit 700 bucks, they turn around and the price goes to 1200 USD.   This has been going on in business since forever. But now as direct sales from manufactures has become a much more practical thing in the internet age there is a way for companies to change this.    The Manufacture->Distributor->Wholesaler->Retailer->Customer model with no skipping steps and each adding their own markup business model is dead.  Endless companies still work this way, they just don't realize how soon/quick a new player is going to go Manufacture->Customer  and blow up the world they knew.  Set pricing means both or any variation of these models can co-exist.

Apple gave the market stability, companies who sold stuff below cost and would make it up in volume went away.   If you want to end up with 1 retailer for all things in the future (Buy-N-Large as the Movie Wall-E had) then having shops drive the price and create destructive price wars, then sure, don't have pricing like Festool does.  People don't want to live thru a Wall-Mart style destruction cycle, not in their town, not online.  Sure they are cheap when they are new and growing, but once everyone else is dead they charge what ever they want.

Consumers like consistent pricing.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7785
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2018, 01:18 AM »
Having standardized prices is a good thing as was mentioned by others,  race to the bottom pricing isn't good for anyone, and thus why so many companies have shifted to this model.
Good for all, except for the customers.
This kind of price fixing is illegal in many countries for exactly that reason.

It's not price fixing.   If Festool called up Mafell and other members of the Track Saw Manufactures Association of Earth and decided on a price they would all charge for track saws, that would be price fixing. This sort of action is taken seriously in most all countries including countries like the US.

Festool makes the products and says it cost X amount. There is no price fixing when the maker of it decides the price on their own. That's what every product made has. One company can not "price fix" by itself.

A company like Festool does not have to sell thru 3rd parties.  They could just sell them all themselves and the price would be the price just like it is now.  They give others the ability to sell Festool products and in exchange those re-sellers agree to the price. 

When you don't control the price across the board you get all forms of problem, mainly scammers. People go "price hunting" find some shop with a price much lower than the rest, so they buy from it and think they are getting a deal.  Maybe the product will ship, maybe they never see it, or maybe random charges end up on credit card that can't be explained, or hidden fees.  Have a problem, oops that website doesn't exist anymore, where did they go.  And will the people who got taken say "I made a mistake and didn't buy from a reputable shop?"  No, they will go online and curse the manufacture.   Having the price be the same means everyone is on the same page, people buy from where they feel is reputable, or maybe they liked the staff, or they buy from the local store since the online place is no cheaper and it means they can have the product that day and not pay shipping.

Beyond scammers, it becomes the race to the bottom.  Product cost 1000 USD.  Someone decides they can cut it to 990 USD.  Suddenly other retailers find no one is buying because people cared that much about 10 bucks (same people who drive cross town to save 2 cents on gas and thing they are "saving").  So now everyone drops 10 bucks.  Then a different shop drops 15 bucks...... Cycle continues.  Now it becomes who blinks first.  How many places can cut margin and still keep the lights on due to a silly war a few dollars at a time.  Shop after Shop bails, consumers get mad at loss of retailers they liked.  This keeps going until there is one left standing, which is almost certainly going to be the one that started the largest, so someplace like Amazon wins, and then once the last competitor is gone after the price hit 700 bucks, they turn around and the price goes to 1200 USD.   This has been going on in business since forever. But now as direct sales from manufactures has become a much more practical thing in the internet age there is a way for companies to change this.    The Manufacture->Distributor->Wholesaler->Retailer->Customer model with no skipping steps and each adding their own markup business model is dead.  Endless companies still work this way, they just don't realize how soon/quick a new player is going to go Manufacture->Customer  and blow up the world they knew.  Set pricing means both or any variation of these models can co-exist.

Apple gave the market stability, companies who sold stuff below cost and would make it up in volume went away.   If you want to end up with 1 retailer for all things in the future (Buy-N-Large as the Movie Wall-E had) then having shops drive the price and create destructive price wars, then sure, don't have pricing like Festool does.  People don't want to live thru a Wall-Mart style destruction cycle, not in their town, not online.  Sure they are cheap when they are new and growing, but once everyone else is dead they charge what ever they want.

Consumers like consistent pricing.

Wow, huge story in which about everything about economics, law and consumer psychology is plain wrong. But thanks for your thoughts.

- It IS price fixing.

- Consumers like LOW pricing.

- Competition does not lead to monopolists and scammers, but to low prices.

Offline TheSergeant

  • Posts: 103
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2018, 01:47 AM »
I'm abandoning the brand as well.  I've owned most of the Festool line and have been selling everything off.  The only tools I'm planning on keeping are the OF1400, Domino 500 and my RO150.  Everything else has been sold.  That includes (2) TS55s, Trion, Carvex, CXS, (3) MFT3s, OF1010, CT22, ATF55, RO125, ETS125 and I'm sure others I'm forgetting, not to mention accessories and rails and other small items.  I'm just not seeing the innovations in the products that warrant the kind of price premium and I don't trust the longevity of the products anymore.  I'd rather offload them now while people are still willing to pay close to retail for a used "luxury brand tool".  The annual price increase and the "Hurry, buy now, prices are rising" sales strategy is also getting ridiculous.  I really never thought I'd jump ship but it's just getting silly at this point.  I used to direct people towards Festool, now I find myself persuading people away from the brand.  It's too bad really....

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2384
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2018, 09:52 AM »
I'm abandoning the brand as well.  I've owned most of the Festool line and have been selling everything off.  The only tools I'm planning on keeping are the OF1400, Domino 500 and my RO150.  Everything else has been sold.  That includes (2) TS55s, Trion, Carvex, CXS, (3) MFT3s, OF1010, CT22, ATF55, RO125, ETS125 and I'm sure others I'm forgetting, not to mention accessories and rails and other small items.  I'm just not seeing the innovations in the products that warrant the kind of price premium and I don't trust the longevity of the products anymore.  I'd rather offload them now while people are still willing to pay close to retail for a used "luxury brand tool".  The annual price increase and the "Hurry, buy now, prices are rising" sales strategy is also getting ridiculous.  I really never thought I'd jump ship but it's just getting silly at this point.  I used to direct people towards Festool, now I find myself persuading people away from the brand.  It's too bad really....
   I don't get you at all. You already OWNED all of those tools, you paid the money and you seem to say you were enjoying using them. Maybe you made money with them as well?
  So, you're selling them off because you're 'betting' the value of them is going to fall drastically in the future or that tools which have never been posted as prone to failure are going to fail on you?   I don't see a single Kapex in your 'sold off' list.
 This makes no sense to me at all since none of what you sold off is ever really talked about as fragile in the least here on FOG and other Forums.   [huh]
 
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline koenbro

  • Posts: 84
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2018, 12:53 PM »
I don't get it either. 

The tools are good, some are excellent. They provide functionality that you'll need to replicate somehow, after selling existing green tools at 50-80% of new cost.

Like everyone else here, I see full well that some accessories are pretty poorly designed others are positively horrid (MFT3 protractor and rail locks, LR32 distance stop,  plastic accessories for the otherwise excellent DF500, etc, etc) but i can't easily replace them.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

MFT/3 • TS 55 REQ • Carvex PS420 EBQ + Accessories • OF1400 + LR32 + MFS400 • Domino DF500 • AvidProCNC 24x48" • ETS EC150/5 EQplus • DTS 400 REQplus • CXS • CT 26E • Fuji Q4 + 3M PPS

Offline TheSergeant

  • Posts: 103
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2018, 02:36 PM »
I'm abandoning the brand as well.  I've owned most of the Festool line and have been selling everything off.  The only tools I'm planning on keeping are the OF1400, Domino 500 and my RO150.  Everything else has been sold.  That includes (2) TS55s, Trion, Carvex, CXS, (3) MFT3s, OF1010, CT22, ATF55, RO125, ETS125 and I'm sure others I'm forgetting, not to mention accessories and rails and other small items.  I'm just not seeing the innovations in the products that warrant the kind of price premium and I don't trust the longevity of the products anymore.  I'd rather offload them now while people are still willing to pay close to retail for a used "luxury brand tool".  The annual price increase and the "Hurry, buy now, prices are rising" sales strategy is also getting ridiculous.  I really never thought I'd jump ship but it's just getting silly at this point.  I used to direct people towards Festool, now I find myself persuading people away from the brand.  It's too bad really....
   I don't get you at all. You already OWNED all of those tools, you paid the money and you seem to say you were enjoying using them. Maybe you made money with them as well?
  So, you're selling them off because you're 'betting' the value of them is going to fall drastically in the future or that tools which have never been posted as prone to failure are going to fail on you?   I don't see a single Kapex in your 'sold off' list.
 This makes no sense to me at all since none of what you sold off is ever really talked about as fragile in the least here on FOG and other Forums.   [huh]

I didn't just sell them to sell them.  I started looking at what what other manufacturers were offering and realized there much better tools being sold at much lower prices.  I sold my Festools and replaced them with better tools and literally had $1,000+ left in my pocket.  I did it now because there's still a demand for Festool in the used market for hobbyist and I saw an opportunity to upgrade and make money at the same time, which is almost unheard of.  The demand is there because people still perceive these tools as being superior, in part, because of their price.  I think people are waking up though and I don't think the demand in the used market is going to be there in a year, or two or three.   

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 12525
  • Remington Steele - My Third Boy
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2018, 04:47 PM »
Well, what started as a proclaimed rant has produced a thread where many have provided thoughts and insights for Festool and the rest of the internet to read.  But sensing that this thread has run its practical course whereas the prices in effect will remain in effect unless Festool takes action mid-sales-year and Festool won't discuss marketing strategy in public, I am going to lock this thread.

Hopefully everyone will have the time and inkling to go and safely use their tools of whatever color.

Peter Halle - Moderator