Festool Owners Group

FESTOOL DISCUSSIONS => Ask Festool => Topic started by: Scott216 on December 26, 2021, 01:23 PM

Title: Kapex on whole-shop dust collection?
Post by: Scott216 on December 26, 2021, 01:23 PM
Will dust collection on a kapex work well if it's connected to a shop dust collection system, verses a shop vacuum or Festool dust extractor? I have a clearvue CV1800 cyclone dust system.  It has 6" ductwork that I could get run to within a few feet of the kapex, then connect a short 1.5" or 2" hose.  I'd probably have to allow some make-up air since the port size on the kapex would probably starve CV1800 of air, but that's easy to do. 
Title: Re: Kapex on whole-shop dust collection?
Post by: ChuckS on December 26, 2021, 01:52 PM
No reason why it shouldn't. Use a short 36mm dia. hose for the Kapex.
Title: Re: Kapex on whole-shop dust collection?
Post by: Mini Me on December 26, 2021, 07:01 PM
Forget the Festool port as a hook for the 1800, the 1800 and similar extractors depend on mass air flow unlike the Festool system which depends on high air speed to do what it does which in reality is only to keep the workplace clean of debris. The largest hose that Festool supply will simply choke the 1800 and likely not pick up all the debris the Festool system will do. For complete collection of debris and fine dust build an enclosure for the saw and run the 6" line to that and using the original Festool system with a vac would not hurt either as every little bit helps. Mitre saws spray fine dust everywhere and keeping it to a minimum is the ultimate aim because getting it all is impossible. The Festool system was made for tradies and people working indoors (mostly) to keep the work site clean of debris and will never collect the fine dust that cause the health problems woodworkers suffer. It does that job really well as we know but that is all.
Title: Re: Kapex on whole-shop dust collection?
Post by: squall_line on December 26, 2021, 08:17 PM
Forget the Festool port as a hook for the 1800, the 1800 and similar extractors depend on mass air flow unlike the Festool system which depends on high air speed to do what it does which in reality is only to keep the workplace clean of debris. The largest hose that Festool supply will simply choke the 1800 and likely not pick up all the debris the Festool system will do. For complete collection of debris and fine dust build an enclosure for the saw and run the 6" line to that and using the original Festool system with a vac would not hurt either as every little bit helps. Mitre saws spray fine dust everywhere and keeping it to a minimum is the ultimate aim because getting it all is impossible. The Festool system was made for tradies and people working indoors (mostly) to keep the work site clean of debris and will never collect the fine dust that cause the health problems woodworkers suffer. It does that job really well as we know but that is all.

I understand that you've spent serious time and money researching this, but are you seriously saying (not just implying, but flat out saying) that a HEPA-rated collection system will never collect fine particles?

If so, what's the point of a HEPA rating?  Why not just leave the bag out of the canister like a typical $50 Borg Special shop vac if there's nothing small enough for the HEPA filter to worry about catching?

I'm not saying that an air cleaner isn't also a good idea, in addition to masking and other protection, but I don't understand the sentiment that Festool isn't capable of collecting fine dust.
Title: Re: Kapex on whole-shop dust collection?
Post by: Mini Me on December 27, 2021, 04:37 AM
No, the HEPA filter will collect the dust that the vac captures but the vac is not a fine dust collector it's primary function is
as a debris collector. I can see the surprise and consternation on everyone's face as they read that but I would be more than surprised if Festool's system was ever meant to be more than that. It will trap some fine dust but nowhere near what is required for good health reasons and the HEPA filter is needed for that reason. A tradesman working in a house wants and needs to keep things tidy and the Festool system does that well as we all know. I have seen numerous videos none of which I have book marked showing the huge amount of fine dust which is not captured and presumed others had seen them as well. The answer to the OP's question is that the 1800 will not function with a small vac hose, been there and tried that with my CV 1800.
Title: Re: Kapex on whole-shop dust collection?
Post by: JD2720 on December 27, 2021, 07:06 AM
This is how I collect dust from my miter saw. I have two four inch ports behind the saw.

Title: Re: Kapex on whole-shop dust collection?
Post by: MikeGE on December 27, 2021, 08:53 AM
I don't have a CV1800, but my 3HP DC and 120mm ducting works great for the large shop machines.  However, it does not perform well on my miter saw. 

I had a DeWalt DWS780 in my miter saw workstation, with a large scoop behind the saw to hopefully collect the dust and chips. I even tried connecting a reducer to the 120mm flex hose so I could connect a shop vac hose directly to the saw.  Still no suck-cess.  The problem with the DWS780 is it threw as much chips and dust to the sides as it did to the back, so having a hose on the saw connected directly to the vacuum of space would not have worked well. 

I monitor the air quality with a Dylos DC1700, and when the level of measured particulate reaches a certain point, I stop and let the ceiling mounted air scrubber work for as long as it takes for the levels to drop back down.  The start and stop points vary from day to day, and it depends on the background readings for the day.  The Dylos does not distinguish between walnut, pollen, or burning toast particles, but my shop is normally at a lower level than my back porch.

I replaced the DWS780 with the KS120REB and connected it directly to a CTM36E under the miter saw table via a D36 hose.  Since then, I have not needed to stop during a cutting job to allow the fine particulate to clear.  There are still some stray chips that are not collected, but these will likely not wind up in my lungs.  It's possible that my confidence in this setup is misplaced, but I trust the Dylos monitor and the efficiency of the Festool system.
Title: Re: Kapex on whole-shop dust collection?
Post by: Peter_C on December 27, 2021, 04:33 PM
YES! As shown in the photo above picking up the air behind the saw in an enclosed cabinet or cover will vastly improve fine dust collection from any miter saw. Myself I would still hook to a Festool dust extractor on the saws port, along with a 4"-6" port.

The Rousseau 5000 has a 4" port in the bottom of it. Fastcap makes something similar without a specific port. Supposedly they have issues with the fabric around the port being sucked in, although there is a Rousseau PDF available on how to alleviate that issue.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Khn3BBbXL._AC_SS450_.jpg)

I monitor the air quality with a Dylos DC1700, and when the level of measured particulate reaches a certain point, I stop and let the ceiling mounted air scrubber work for as long as it takes for the levels to drop back down.
Curious what your cut off point for particulate matter is? (When I turn my Dylos on it goes to 1200. After Powermatic filtration is turned on it drops to 400, but when cutting or sanding I often see 1800+.)
Title: Re: Kapex on whole-shop dust collection?
Post by: Mini Me on December 27, 2021, 05:36 PM
YES! As shown in the photo above picking up the air behind the saw in an enclosed cabinet or cover will vastly improve fine dust collection from any miter saw. Myself I would still hook to a Festool dust extractor on the saws port, along with a 4"-6" port.

A good idea as every little bit helps. Mitre saws of any breed are very difficult capture the very fine dust from and once fine dust escapes from any machine it floats upwards and our noses happen to be well above the machines and then it will settle on us in our clothes. I can't figure out how to post an image on here but a search for mitre saw dust hood https://www.google.com/search?q=miter+saw+dust+hood&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwid2rb9_YT1AhWwzjgGHdTtBPQQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1600&bih=770&dpr=1.2 shows a lot of ideas but as usual some good and some not so good.

Mine is a bit unique and requires something in the order of a CV1800 to make it work and I have hot rodded my cyclone by running it at 70hz thus increasing the air flow. I am a bit of a realist about dust, we will never capture all of it but we need to take steps to minimise what escapes. Unfortunately about 99% of what is on the internet is not good practise and a lot of it is put out there for self promotion on YouTube to promote views for financial purposes. I would not mind them doing that if the information being promoted was good practise but in most cases it is not. Dave Stanton is one doing the right thing BTW and he will acknowledge the improvements to his system by using our blast gates. I am not here to sell a product as I have said before because we do not export but I will contribute to any discussion where I might be able to add my knowledge and raise the awareness of the fine dust problem we all face as woodworkers.