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Author Topic: Festool Table saw.....dado stack  (Read 1414 times)

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Offline Chris Cianci

  • Posts: 96
Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« on: June 01, 2020, 04:30 PM »
When the Festool table saw w SawStop technology is out in NA is it scheduled to be able to use a dado stack?

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Online Alex

  • Posts: 6550
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2020, 05:16 PM »
Me not Festool ..... but ..... not gonna happen.

Dados are not used in Europe, and they will not redesign that saw. And the saw will probably not even come to the USA.

Offline CeeJay

  • Posts: 111
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2020, 05:34 PM »
Is that right? Dadoes not used/not legal in Europe?

Why is that?


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Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1762
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2020, 05:53 PM »
You can't use the blade guard with a dado stack (except for rabbets). Not using the blade guard is a no-no in the EU.

North America only caught up with the riving knife standard not too long ago, something that has been a standard in the EU. Saw manufacturers blamed the delay on extra costs that consumers wouldn't want to pay for...similar arguments used for not fitting their saws with the finger-saving technology when they had the chance.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 05:56 PM by ChuckM »

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 491
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2020, 06:23 PM »
You can't use the blade guard with a dado stack (except for rabbets). Not using the blade guard is a no-no in the EU.

North America only caught up with the riving knife standard not too long ago, something that has been a standard in the EU. Saw manufacturers blamed the delay on extra costs that consumers wouldn't want to pay for...similar arguments used for not fitting their saws with the finger-saving technology when they had the chance.

- Or riving knife, but I guess you meant that also.

On Presicio saws there’s an opportunity to use the saw without the blade guard, and by lowering the riving knife by a firm push downwards on the knife, it will then lover to a “hidden cut” position.
With this function you’ll still have most of the riving knife’s function, but still can do a “dado” cut.
Albeit, only with standard blades.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 491
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2020, 06:34 PM »
Photos says more..  [big grin]:

First two shows riving knife in top position and blade guard in place.


Riving knife in top position w/o blade guard.


Riving knife in lowered position (pushed down).


The whole operation takes about 20 sec.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Online Alex

  • Posts: 6550
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2020, 11:17 AM »
Is that right? Dadoes not used/not legal in Europe?

Why is that?

To be honest, I don't know exactly. But they are totally not used here and dado blades are not sold. I don't know if they're illegal or not, but no one sells them and there are no saws on which they fit.

I'd guess they figure we do dados with a router, and we do. Or the approach with a table saw were you make multiple cuts a tiny little bit side by side.

Offline CeeJay

  • Posts: 111
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2020, 05:25 PM »
Ok. I guess it’s blade guard related as someone mentioned.

I have to say I love my dado stack on the table saw. Super quick and convenient for cabinetry. Interesting if it is related to  blade guard given it’s the only operation where the blade isn’t exposed!!

Also love my 6mm flat top grind blade for drawer bottoms etc. I guess also couldn’t use something like this on a CMS?


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Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1762
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2020, 06:15 PM »
The unexposed blade stack can be a hidden danger that catches an inattentive user or a newbie off guard.

I learned of a serious shop accident in which the operator got his palm severely injured when he was pushing a board over the stack. As his bare hand was on the work directly over the stack, a kickback occurred.

Another dado injury I heard of was when an operator pushed a board past the spinning stack which also sliced a bit of his thumb as his hand was not placed far away enough.

These days, I seldom use the dado stack (thanks to using the DF500), but I'm aware of the need to use push pads whenever I still need to cut rabbets on the table saw.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 07:46 PM by ChuckM »

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 797
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2020, 07:22 PM »
Is that right? Dadoes not used/not legal in Europe?

Why is that?

To be honest, I don't know exactly. But they are totally not used here and dado blades are not sold. I don't know if they're illegal or not, but no one sells them and there are no saws on which they fit.

I'd guess they figure we do dados with a router, and we do. Or the approach with a table saw were you make multiple cuts a tiny little bit side by side.

I think it's many things, and yeah, you guys being big into using routers for everything (in part because of track systems), long before other parts of the world probably had something to do with it.

What is interesting though is in the EU,  companies sell "groovers", which are basically circular saws with dado blades in them.  Which is strange those are fine, but the same thing mounted in a frame is not.  Similar with the massive hand held planers.

I don't think anyone here would look at their skil saw and think "I should put a dado stack in that".

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 993
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2020, 12:52 AM »
Dado sets must be sold in some places in Europe.  I've seen some of  Timothy Wilmots' videos that show his Felder slider set up  for dado work.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2088
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2020, 01:03 AM »
I believe it has to do with blade break on Euro saws. Heavy dado stack risks unwinding the nut when breaking. Some higher end saws have pins that keep blade from slipping, thus allowing dado blades. Just speculating here.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 01:09 AM by Svar »

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 518
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2020, 03:12 AM »
Me not Festool ..... but ..... not gonna happen.

Dados are not used in Europe, and they will not redesign that saw. And the saw will probably not even come to the USA.
Nope.

Felder / Hammer has a “dado” stack. Available in Europe. You can go from 8-18,5 mm (according to their website).

Harvey (cabinet saw) can also fit one.


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Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1092
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2020, 06:18 AM »
I have been told without question they are illegal in the UK, because it involves blade guard removal. Others have dismissed this as nonsense.
I am not sure either way, what I will say is, There are users of dado or UK termed “housing” or “trench” stacks in the UK, I see them when visiting some timber mills.

There are as mentioned European tools made, that demonstrate the guard removed, so a dado can be cut, albeit with a single blade. Work that out? [scratch chin]

However, the majority have either large router tables set up, or spindle moulders, and cut dado’s and rabbet’s or what we term as rebates on them.
Over here routers and spindle moulders are like a multi tool, and used for all sorts of jobs.
To be fair, it’s probably a lot safer cutting a dado on a router table or spindle moulder, with all the guards in place, than it is on a table or cabinet saw.

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 518
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2020, 06:23 AM »
I have been told without question they are illegal in the UK, because it involves blade guard removal. Others have dismissed this as nonsense.

They lie [big grin]

For the Hammer B3 its just a option:
Quote
Preparation for Dado tooling up to ¾” (19.5 mm) width

https://www.felder-group.com/en-gb/products/saw-spindle-moulders-c1950/saw-spindle-moulder-b3-p142682

Search for DADO...

Felder/Hammer, I think, is one of the few in EU that has adapted their saw (legally) for this.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1092
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2020, 07:24 AM »
I have been told without question they are illegal in the UK, because it involves blade guard removal. Others have dismissed this as nonsense.

They lie [big grin]

For the Hammer B3 its just a option:
Quote
Preparation for Dado tooling up to ¾” (19.5 mm) width

https://www.felder-group.com/en-gb/products/saw-spindle-moulders-c1950/saw-spindle-moulder-b3-p142682

Search for DADO...

Felder/Hammer, I think, is one of the few in EU that has adapted their saw (legally) for this.

Well I’m now more unsure than I was an hour ago.
After some googling, all kinds showed up, including link to UK government law on this stuff, which also includes router and spindle moulder cutters.

Some say the dado stack is illegal because, the blade guard removal, the saw needs to be braked, and stop un aided in a certain time. (Under 10 seconds) I think?

Then I read a thread where a woodworker presenter of a UK woodwork show, set up and used a dado stack on a cabinet saw on the show. Apparently, he checked with all the relevant authorities, who gave him the all clear?

From what I’ve read, I can’t see how they are illegal over here, and even if they were, how would they police it?

I could buy a European machine, ship it over and use it for the rest of my days, who’s going to stop me, who’s even bothered?  ;)

Online Alex

  • Posts: 6550
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2020, 08:02 AM »
The Hammer B3 is a combination machine that can do various things. Combination machines are mostly stationary only, and perfectly legal. Of course you can put a dado in there also, the machine is built for that kind of things. It is not a saw only.

Offline Doug S

  • Posts: 488
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2020, 08:14 AM »
I think here in the UK you can use a dado stack if you comply with all the regs when using it but this is hard to do as the table saws are not generally designed to take them.

The problems are arbors are too short, guards need to be removed, the tip speed is reduced because the dado stacks are often smaller then the blades, the extra weight of the dado stack messes up the length of time the blade takes to stop etc.

If it is for personal use it's up to the individual if they are willing to take the risks but if you are a business you need to comply with regs for insurance purposes.


Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 518
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2020, 08:24 AM »
The Hammer B3 is a combination machine that can do various things. Combination machines are mostly stationary only, and perfectly legal. Of course you can put a dado in there also, the machine is built for that kind of things. It is not a saw only.

I don't think it matter if it's a combination machine, they also have a K3, and it has the same option. Here they even show hot its works (on a K3): https://youtu.be/HuTbDxpuLZY?t=666

Quote from: Alex
But they are totally not used here and dado blades are not sold. I don't know if they're illegal or not, but no one sells them and there are no saws on which they fit.

Was just mention this, since you strongly stated DADO's are not used/sold in Europe...

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 518
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2020, 08:39 AM »
From what I’ve read, I can’t see how they are illegal over here, and even if they were, how would they police it?
Wel, depending on the brand (pretty sure a Hammer K3/B3 would be fine), I guess they can't (police it). However, if you run into some type of accident maybe the insurance could stir-up some issues?

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1092
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2020, 09:09 AM »
From what I’ve read, I can’t see how they are illegal over here, and even if they were, how would they police it?
Wel, depending on the brand (pretty sure a Hammer K3/B3 would be fine), I guess they can't (police it). However, if you run into some type of accident maybe the insurance could stir-up some issues?

As a business and employer, I obviously cannot take the risk mate but, there doesn’t seem to be anything stopping me doing so.
Occasionally, we get a visit from health and safety, and if I change insurance brokers, they may well pay a visit.
Public are only allowed by appointment, so it’s not like many, apart from colleagues and delivery drivers see inside the workshop.

I’m happy cutting trench cuts (dado) with the router and spindle moulder but, I can see how handy a dado stack is.

Offline Chris Cianci

  • Posts: 96
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2020, 09:10 AM »
I started this post and appreciate all of the responses. I’m a novice and happy to hear anything that helps me . Maybe I just need to be more creative in my use of a router in a table or a router on a track.
Thanks again Fog members

Offline Bert Vanderveen

  • Posts: 653
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2020, 09:43 AM »
Is that right? Dadoes not used/not legal in Europe?

Why is that?

To be honest, I don't know exactly. But they are totally not used here and dado blades are not sold. I don't know if they're illegal or not, but no one sells them and there are no saws on which they fit.

I'd guess they figure we do dados with a router, and we do. Or the approach with a table saw were you make multiple cuts a tiny little bit side by side.


Per EU-regulation saw blades have to come to a complete stand still within a certain time after hitting the stop button. Dado-blades have too much mass to be able to reach that limit.
BTW Dado-stacks are used on pro-saws, mostly special order models, but often limited to 19,5 mm width (3/4 inch). For example: Hammer and Felder offer them. My guess is that these machine have blade braking tech on board that makes them fall within the limits.


Here’s a link to a Felder dado-stack:
https://de.feldershop.com/Saegen/Schlitz-und-Nutsaegen/Verstellnutfraeser-fuer-Kreissaegeeinsatz-WPL-HW.html
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

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Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 944
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2020, 10:47 AM »
Or you can just attack it from a different angle:

Multi-cutter MF 26 cc

Online Alex

  • Posts: 6550
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2020, 10:57 AM »
Quote from: Alex
But they are totally not used here and dado blades are not sold. I don't know if they're illegal or not, but no one sells them and there are no saws on which they fit.

Was just mention this, since you strongly stated DADO's are not used/sold in Europe...

I didn't mean to give an all-inclusive list of every professional tool used out there. I just never see them in the stores where I go, I don't see the dados and I don't see any saws that can take them. And I see a lot of professional tool stores, everywhere.

In the USA, dados are open for any consumer to get. If that were the same here, I surely would have seen them and most probably bought them.

Of course, Felder is in the big machine PRO-league. They have their own chanels.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1092
Re: Festool Table saw.....dado stack
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2020, 11:35 AM »
If you watch this video about 1.50 minutes in, it shows the blade guard removed, and cutting a dado/trench, albeit with a single blade.

At least three tool shops I use have these in stock, and I can buy one and use it legally.
So the stack seems to be the issue, as you can see the blade guard lowered or removed.
The video was almost certainly shot in Germany but, sold in Europe with European law, and also N.A

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