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Author Topic: Festool drills / drivers, Why?  (Read 22409 times)

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Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1301
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2021, 06:24 PM »
Yes, they are aftermarket accessories, there’s a long hex 1/4” bit holder, essentially the same bit holder you got with the kit, only longer. (2 differs sizes in fact, in addition to the standard length you’ve got)
The locking bit holder is the same as WERA’s: Search for BHS 60.
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“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

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Offline m8

  • Posts: 70
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2021, 07:58 PM »
I own a Dewalt Impact and Hammer Drill along with the Milwaukee Installation Driver (Festool CXS copy) and I don't enjoy using any of them.  Unfortunately most drill drivers are designed by marketing departments for YouTube videos because usually they all have a ton of power but are too powerful for most of my situations. 

I purchased the Milwaukee Installation Driver instead of the CXS because of limited platform of the batteries but after using the Milwaukee version I'm seriously considering buying the CXS.

When my Delwalts finally let out that last puff of smoke I will probably replace them with their respective Festool.

I do wish Festool would open up their Centrotec accessories along with updating the CXS to their 18 volt platform.

Offline Imemiter

  • Posts: 208
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2021, 08:23 PM »

Are there any tips/sets you recommend I pickup for it?

I'd still pimp the Snappy Centrotec sets. Since getting a CSX, the Jacobs Chuck has become this strange unwieldy kludge.  [laughing]



 

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 847
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #63 on: February 20, 2021, 09:11 AM »
I’ve three sized Vix and plenty of drill bits but would need to swap to the drill chuck ... is the advantage of Centrotec drill bits that you don’t need to carry the chuck adapter or also something else?

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2021, 09:26 AM »
Quick change is the biggest advantage, second comes weight and compactness. Using Centrotec can, depending on accessory, make the difference in small spots, speaking of overall length drill + drill bit.

That said, I think it's crucial to have the keyless chuck as well. So you don't have to put specialized drill bits in the 1/4" bit holder for drilling.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1573
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #65 on: February 20, 2021, 09:39 AM »
The compactness thing doesn't really apply to the CXS. That thing is huge in comparison to other 12V drills.


Code: [Select]
https://youtu.be/XmYbYxEyA3E?t=580

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #66 on: February 20, 2021, 09:46 AM »
Please read my post correctly/ in the right context. We are talking about the keyless chuck vs. Centrotec chuck. In some instances using Centrotec is more compact than chucking a drill bit inside the keyless chuck.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1573
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2021, 10:57 AM »
Please read my post correctly/ in the right context. We are talking about the keyless chuck vs. Centrotec chuck. In some instances using Centrotec is more compact than chucking a drill bit inside the keyless chuck.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Even in that context a Bosch GSR 12v with chuck will be more compact than the CXS with Centrotec chuck.

The body of the CXS is somewhat thinner though, that gives an advantage in some cases.

But the GSR bit storage is non-existent by default and the add-on one is garbage compared to Festool.

It's still a shame they didn't make an excenter chuck for the CXS.

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2021, 11:21 AM »
It's not about a different make/model. It's about CXS + keyless chuck or CXS + Centrotec chuck. Please read the question that was asked in #63 .

I give up/ surrender now. :)

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #69 on: February 20, 2021, 01:15 PM »
I’ve three sized Vix and plenty of drill bits but would need to swap to the drill chuck ... is the advantage of Centrotec drill bits that you don’t need to carry the chuck adapter or also something else?

Overall -- it is a built in compact quick change. Shorter, lighter, no spinning Jacobs, less wobble.

I think Centrotec makes a bigger difference on the T/C 18 (and previous 12v, 15v) than on the CXS. Because it makes a bigger difference on a full size , full power drill, than on the CXS when compared to other brands. I don't think the CXS is the best case drill to look at when asking "why Festool drills".

There is a lot of personal preference, type of work, situational usage involved with choosing a drill. As far as Centrotec goes --- some people love it, some people are indifferent, some people hate it.

Snappy makes three sizes of self centering (Vix) bits that fit the Centrotec chuck.



Seth
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 01:20 PM by SRSemenza »

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #70 on: February 20, 2021, 01:20 PM »
One thing, that is often overlooked,  when comparing the Centrotec chuck to Jacobs is that you don't accidentally end up with
 the spinning chuck rubbing against another surface next to the drill. Granted this is a perfect application for the eccentric chuck (love that thing) but the eccentric doesn't always  work out depending on the drill bit and situation ( EX- using the 90 degree. Which is much better with Centrotec than Jacobs).

Seth

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1301
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #71 on: February 20, 2021, 02:31 PM »
One thing, that is often overlooked,  when comparing the Centrotec chuck to Jacobs is that you don't accidentally end up with
 the spinning chuck rubbing against another surface next to the drill. Granted this is a perfect application for the eccentric chuck (love that thing) but the eccentric doesn't always  work out depending on the drill bit and situation ( EX- using the 90 degree. Which is much better with Centrotec than Jacobs).

Seth

The non spinning and rubbing chuck is a very good point to Centrotec’s favour. And the fact that it makes the larger 18V drills much lighter and more compact. That said, I often use my other compact drill with a Jacobs chuck rather than putting that on the CXS, which does it rather long and front heavy. I would off course not be without the Jacobs chuck on the CXS, but I tend to bring the other and use both to each task.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline slavi.yordanov

  • Posts: 76
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2021, 07:41 PM »
The problem with Centrotec in my opinion is that it’s supposed to help with bit wobble, but I really don’t think the difference with a standard 1/4 hex is that big.

Also all the Centrotec stuff is way overpriced. Some will say everything Festool is overpriced, but considering the three year wear and tear warranty, systainer with every tool, and made in Germany (mostly), the price makes sense.

The BHS60 adapter for example is $30, which is made by Wera. It’s double the price of the standard 1/4 hex bit holder by Wera, and their stuff is not cheap either.

So I think a fair comparison is between Centrotec and standard 1/4 hex drive, when comparing different manufacturers.

The Bosch posted above actually works with Cetrotec bits (the stubby drill bits) and they are actually locked. Also the Festool hand driver by Wiha works on both standard 1/4 and centrotec bits, and there is zero play, I don’t know why that can’t be incorporated into a drill/impact.


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Offline mino

  • Posts: 937
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2021, 07:56 PM »
So I think a fair comparison is between Centrotec and standard 1/4 hex drive, when comparing different manufacturers.
It is not. A comparison (at the time Centrotec came out) did not exist. That is why Festool came up with the system to begin with IMO.

Today, you can approximate the quick-change-chuck part.
You can also (partially) approximate the locking-bitholder-directly-on-shaft part by getting some of the other vendors hex drive locking mini-chucks.

But you still cannot approximate both in one tool and the simplicity it gives.

Even if we ignore the Centrotec bits entirely, the quick-chuck + BHS combo are STILL way better solution than anything else on the market.

Do not like Centrotec bit. Do not use them. No one is forcing you.
It is a capability you get in addition to all the other great features which also other makers have.

No reason to be jealous of Festool users then. Right ?
 [big grin]
When The Machine has no brains, use Yours.

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2021, 10:11 PM »
CXS thinner > stout Bosch.

I can put a 90 adapter that I don't have to hold from turning on the CXS that gets it into VERY short spaces. But really the thinness helps a lot in many situations.

It is the best one to look at for why Festool. But the "system" approach to all the new stuff is probably the biggest reason why to look at other stuff.

Anyways continue to over-analyze and talk about stuff like how bots write reviews that are plastered all over the web for most products  [tongue]
CXS;RO150;ETS EC 125/3 EQ;CT26e  KSS400;MT55cc;DDF 40

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7776
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2021, 01:14 AM »
The problem with Centrotec in my opinion is that it’s supposed to help with bit wobble, but I really don’t think the difference with a standard 1/4 hex is that big.

Also all the Centrotec stuff is way overpriced. Some will say everything Festool is overpriced, but considering the three year wear and tear warranty, systainer with every tool, and made in Germany (mostly), the price makes sense.

I hear people repeating about the bit wobble, but I never have heard Festool say anything about that. I wonder where the idea comes from?

And yes, everything Festool is way overpriced.

Offline slavi.yordanov

  • Posts: 76
Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #76 on: February 23, 2021, 01:50 AM »
I hear people repeating about the bit wobble, but I never have heard Festool say anything about that. I wonder where the idea comes from?

And yes, everything Festool is way overpriced.

From video, for me specifically.

When stuff is made in Germany (Europe), people complain it’s expensive. When it’s cheap, they complain it’s made in China.

So I did some testing. The brad point stubby bit has these additional notches in the shaft, which allows it be locked inside my Bosch. The bit holder doesn’t have these notches for some reason, but when inserted has noticeably less play than a standard hex bit holder. I would try if the stubby bits lock in the TID or my Milwaukee impacts. I guess the wobble has more to with the ball detent on standard 1/4 hex bits than anything else really.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7776
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #77 on: February 23, 2021, 07:20 AM »
From video, for me specifically.

Peter Parfitt is great guy and long time member here, but he is not Festool.

A system where you insert bits that are not clamped down will always have some wobble.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 937
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #78 on: February 23, 2021, 08:31 AM »
I hear people repeating about the bit wobble, but I never have heard Festool say anything about that. I wonder where the idea comes from?

Probably anecdotal experience. It _is_ possible to make hex components to the same tolerance as the Cetrotec is being made to from the get go.

You buy Centrotec, you get guaranteed "wobbliness" which is generally on the better/best side of the scale. But that is more of a side-effect IMO.

Festool did not use /actually they did, you can fit hex bits directly into the shaft/ native hex simply because they needed additional STRENGTH so it can be used to carry the full Jacobs chucks etc. So they took the torque from the hex but the guiding aspect is using the MUCH STRONGER outer cylinder which allows for more consistent precision but mainly more strength.

The Centrotec system bits compatible with the special chuck is only part of the system. The primary purpose is the quick-change chucks capability which cannot be achieved but a simple hex internal bit itself.
You need to compare that with other systems using balls for torque etc. which are generally inferior for torque transfer but was patent-free till late.
When The Machine has no brains, use Yours.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1573
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2021, 09:24 AM »
CXS thinner > stout Bosch.

I can put a 90 adapter that I don't have to hold from turning on the CXS that gets it into VERY short spaces. But really the thinness helps a lot in many situations.

See the same Youtube video I posted from 18:00 on. The CXS 90 degree adapter isn't that special. The thinness is nice, but same can be achieved with longer bit with other machines, while the shorter body can never be achieved by Festool. So you are going to use the 90 degree adapter more.

One thing, that is often overlooked,  when comparing the Centrotec chuck to Jacobs is that you don't accidentally end up with
 the spinning chuck rubbing against another surface next to the drill. Granted this is a perfect application for the eccentric chuck (love that thing) but the eccentric doesn't always  work out depending on the drill bit and situation ( EX- using the 90 degree. Which is much better with Centrotec than Jacobs).

Seth

Competitors now also have products that have 90 degree adapters without using any Jacob's chuck.

The Festool system remains the easiest I have to say. But last year, when I bought new drills, I looked at a Festool T18 Set... and for less money I got a Bosch GSR 18v-60, a GSR 12v-35 and a GSR 12v-35 FC with all the chucks, total 6 batteries. If I have a drill / drive job I now have a machine for each, so no exchanging heads at all.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 09:27 AM by Coen »

Offline slavi.yordanov

  • Posts: 76
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2021, 10:04 AM »
Centrotec is nice, don’t get me wrong, but the price to get all the necessary bits is ridiculous. It’s very cleverly designed and I see the benefit of having a few of these adapters loaded with different bits. Still slower than having to drills ready to go through.

I have used my Centrotec head less than ten times, since regular drills suck for driving screws. I don’t have any Centrotec drilling bits, except the stubby ones, but they lock nicely in to my Bosch Flexiclick. And they have the same amount of wobble as when mounted on my C18.

Interestingly when looking at older pictures all Centrotec bits had the little notches in the shaft, where the Bosch locks them. Most of the new bits do not have these notches..

I love my C18 for what I use it for. It has the keyless chuck and 90 degree adapter attached to it 95% of the time. I mainly use 7/8 hex shank Hole Saw bits for drilling through 2x material. The thing fits perfectly in subfloor space. Centrotec drill bits will not work in my application, so I’m not really excited about it. One thing that bothers me is that when a drill bit is locked in the keyless chuck, it can’t me removed from the drill like the Centrotec adapter.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 937
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2021, 11:25 AM »
One thing that bothers me is that when a drill bit is locked in the keyless chuck, it can’t me removed from the drill like the Centrotec adapter.
It absolutely can I do it all the time.

You may want o check if your chuck does not experience some issue preventing this.
When The Machine has no brains, use Yours.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1573
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #82 on: February 23, 2021, 11:34 AM »
One thing that bothers me is that when a drill bit is locked in the keyless chuck, it can’t me removed from the drill like the Centrotec adapter.
It absolutely can I do it all the time.

You may want o check if your chuck does not experience some issue preventing this.

He means the drillbit itself can't be removed from the chuck if you already removed the chuck from the machine.

Offline grobkuschelig

  • Posts: 735
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #83 on: February 23, 2021, 12:02 PM »
He means the drillbit itself can't be removed from the chuck if you already removed the chuck from the machine.

Until a couple of years ago, Festool was selling a Wiha-made screwdriver handle with a Centrotec part as the „Blade“.

These were also part of the installer kits and would allow you to use all your Centrotec equipment manually as well.

I have one in every drill Systainer and use these to release drills from the chuck or manual tasks. But they might be very hard to get nowadays...



As with everything regarding tools, you need to find what you like for yourself.
I for one definitely appreciate the Centrotec system and the Festool drills.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9670
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #84 on: February 23, 2021, 12:13 PM »

I have one in every drill Systainer and use these to release drills from the chuck or manual tasks. But they might be very hard to get nowadays...


Great idea...I now have a new use for mine.  [smile]

Offline slavi.yordanov

  • Posts: 76
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #85 on: February 23, 2021, 01:00 PM »
One thing that bothers me is that when a drill bit is locked in the keyless chuck, it can’t me removed from the drill like the Centrotec adapter.
It absolutely can I do it all the time.

You may want o check if your chuck does not experience some issue preventing this.

He means the drillbit itself can't be removed from the chuck if you already removed the chuck from the machine.
I meant that the chuck can’t be removed from the drill, if a bit is locked inside.


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Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7776
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #86 on: February 23, 2021, 02:13 PM »
I meant that the chuck can’t be removed from the drill, if a bit is locked inside.

But you can, I do it all the time. Why doesn't yours? Just lift the locking collar up and off it should go. See if there's some metal shavings inside, or other dirt, and spray it with WD40. 

Offline mino

  • Posts: 937
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #87 on: February 23, 2021, 02:31 PM »
One thing that bothers me is that when a drill bit is locked in the keyless chuck, it can’t me removed from the drill like the Centrotec adapter.
It absolutely can I do it all the time.

You may want o check if your chuck does not experience some issue preventing this.

He means the drillbit itself can't be removed from the chuck if you already removed the chuck from the machine.
Ok, not what was written.

But in that case that is a natural property of every quick-change chuck system I have ever seen. Including those on CNCs etc. With no machine (or some contraption) connected, there is nothing to stop the shaft from moving in a chuck.

Normally it is not an issue. The quick-chuck system is about having as-many-as-needed-for-project chucks so that you do not change tools in chucks but whole chucks on tool/between tools.
When The Machine has no brains, use Yours.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1573
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #88 on: February 23, 2021, 03:04 PM »
One thing that bothers me is that when a drill bit is locked in the keyless chuck, it can’t me removed from the drill like the Centrotec adapter.
It absolutely can I do it all the time.

You may want o check if your chuck does not experience some issue preventing this.

He means the drillbit itself can't be removed from the chuck if you already removed the chuck from the machine.
I meant that the chuck can’t be removed from the drill, if a bit is locked inside.


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Huh what. I do that all the time. Well, did. I now mainly use my Bosch drills.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9670
Re: Festool drills / drivers, Why?
« Reply #89 on: February 23, 2021, 06:22 PM »

I meant that the chuck can’t be removed from the drill, if a bit is locked inside.


I do that all the time, if I have a lot of repetitive holes to drill with 2 different sized drills, I chuck the smaller bit in the CXS chuck and then chuck the larger bit in the C 15 chuck and swap chucks around on the CXS as needed. Swapping chucks is faster than swapping drill bits.