Author Topic: CT36 Plug Tap Rating (Read 18451 times)

ultgar · « **on:** December 20, 2010, 05:25 PM »

Received my CT36 today and was surprised to see a sticker on the plug tap cover suggesting not to exceed 3.1a (approx 375w) with any power tool plugged into this receptacle. This obviously has to be a mistake with the sticker as the CT33 had a 1200w sticker. Did anyone else notice this problem?

see http://www.ultimategarage.com/festool/ct36powerrating.jpg

Tom Bellemare · « **Reply #1 on:** December 20, 2010, 06:04 PM »

That's what mine says.

Tom

ultgar · « **Reply #2 on:** December 20, 2010, 08:06 PM »

I mention it because I get calls all the time with the Alto vacs I sell....customers want to know if they can safely plug their Saw or Router into the vac for tool triggered auto-start. I switched several customers last year from Alto to Festool because of this requirement....Alto vacs have a 600w recommended max on the receptacle cover.

According to the CT36 sticker (not sure about the CT26 but I assume its the same) which was presumably on the machine for UL approval, customers should not plug anything drawing greater than 3.1 amps (370w max ) or there might be a risk of fire. I am still waiting for someone from Festool to get back to me on this. Steve D

wnagle · « **Reply #3 on:** December 20, 2010, 08:42 PM »

Not sure what it means but It doesn't say 3.1 It says 3,1. I'm not sure why the comma instead of a decimal point, but it may be a clue to the mystery.

Tom Bellemare · « **Reply #4 on:** December 20, 2010, 08:43 PM »

Europeans use a comma instead of a period.

Tom

wnagle · « **Reply #5 on:** December 20, 2010, 09:08 PM »

ahhh, I don't get out much!

JD2720 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 20, 2010, 09:13 PM »

Well, I used my CT36 for 3 days last week with a Kapex connected to it & nothing caught on fire.

Brice Burrell · « **Reply #7 on:** December 20, 2010, 10:23 PM »

Quote from: Chris Rosenberger on December 20, 2010, 09:13 PM

Well, I used my CT36 for 3 days last week with a Kapex connected to it & nothing caught on fire.

I've used my 26 with the OF2200 and I've made miles of cut with the TS55.

tDot · « **Reply #8 on:** December 21, 2010, 02:17 AM »

I'm going out on a limb here, as I don't know all the CT 36 specs, but doesn't the CT36 only come with the plug for a 15A outlet? Does it even include the 20amp outlet adapter like the CT33?

Either way, the sticker probably has something to do with the Max amperage draw that would be allowed on a 15Amp outlet, if the vac was at full power. I'd assume max amperage draw would be approx 12Amps for the vac. So you would only have a small balance of available power remaining.

Festoolfootstool · « **Reply #9 on:** December 21, 2010, 03:17 AM »

Quote from: Brice Burrell on December 20, 2010, 10:23 PM

Quote from: Chris Rosenberger on December 20, 2010, 09:13 PM
Well, I used my CT36 for 3 days last week with a Kapex connected to it & nothing caught on fire.

I've used my 26 with the OF2200 and I've made miles of cut with the TS55.

I was told by Festool UK that using the of2200 with the ct26 36 was fine and would not cause any problems or warrantee issues

Jeff Zanin · « **Reply #10 on:** December 21, 2010, 06:34 AM »

Quote from: Festoolfootstool on December 21, 2010, 03:17 AM

Quote from: Brice Burrell on December 20, 2010, 10:23 PM
Quote from: Chris Rosenberger on December 20, 2010, 09:13 PM
Well, I used my CT36 for 3 days last week with a Kapex connected to it & nothing caught on fire.

I've used my 26 with the OF2200 and I've made miles of cut with the TS55.
I was told by Festool UK that using the of2200 with the ct26 36 was fine and would not cause any problems or warrantee issues

Interesting - what is the mains voltage in the UK?

In the U.S. and Canada it is 120VAC, I am wondering if the power available here is reduced compared to someplace where the voltage is higher.

I don't see an electrical specification for the CT36 on the Festool USA website, but if the vac is intended for use on a typical 15A branch circuit there might not be much amperage left to power a tool when the vac is running at full power. What type of plug does the CT36 have – 15A or 20A?

I have used my CT22 on a 15A circuit with the TS-75 (and with a Bosch 4100

) with no issues, but the run time of the tool + vac is typically quite short and likely not enough to pop the breaker, and there was nothing else in use on the circuit. But whenever possible I remove the pigtail and use a 20A receptacle and circuit.

Jeff

Festoolfootstool · « **Reply #11 on:** December 21, 2010, 07:25 AM »

Quote from: Jeff Zanin on December 21, 2010, 06:34 AM

Quote from: Festoolfootstool on December 21, 2010, 03:17 AM
Quote from: Brice Burrell on December 20, 2010, 10:23 PM
Quote from: Chris Rosenberger on December 20, 2010, 09:13 PM
Well, I used my CT36 for 3 days last week with a Kapex connected to it & nothing caught on fire.

I've used my 26 with the OF2200 and I've made miles of cut with the TS55.
I was told by Festool UK that using the of2200 with the ct26 36 was fine and would not cause any problems or warrantee issues

Interesting - what is the mains voltage in the UK?

Hi The voltage I was talking to festool about was 110v 50 cycles which is used on uk construction sites

In the U.S. and Canada it is 120VAC, I am wondering if the power available here is reduced compared to someplace where the voltage is higher.

I don't see an electrical specification for the CT36 on the Festool USA website, but if the vac is intended for use on a typical 15A branch circuit there might not be much amperage left to power a tool when the vac is running at full power. What type of plug does the CT36 have – 15A or 20A?

I have used my CT22 on a 15A circuit with the TS-75 (and with a Bosch 4100 ) with no issues, but the run time of the tool + vac is typically quite short and likely not enough to pop the breaker, and there was nothing else in use on the circuit. But whenever possible I remove the pigtail and use a 20A receptacle and circuit.

Jeff

fdengel · « **Reply #12 on:** December 21, 2010, 07:40 AM »

The PDF of the user's manual from the festoolusa site indicates that the connected power tool should not exceed 3.7 amps, or 9.1 amps at minimum suction, for the CT 36.

This seems strange to me, I thought my CT 22 allowed more than this?

Brice Burrell · « **Reply #13 on:** December 21, 2010, 08:48 AM »

Quote from: fdengel on December 21, 2010, 07:40 AM

The PDF of the user's manual from the festoolusa site indicates that the connected power tool should not exceed 3.7 amps, or 9.1 amps at minimum suction, for the CT 36.

This seems strange to me, I thought my CT 22 allowed more than this?

Forget what the literature says. The vacs are meant to be used with any of the tools we have here in N America. Festool wouldn't sell the tools and vacs packaged together if they didn't intend for you to use them.....

ultgar · « **Reply #14 on:** December 21, 2010, 08:55 AM »

Quote from: tDot on December 21, 2010, 02:17 AM

I'm going out on a limb here, as I don't know all the CT 36 specs, but doesn't the CT36 only come with the plug for a 15A outlet? Does it even include the 20amp outlet adapter like the CT33?

Either way, the sticker probably has something to do with the Max amperage draw that would be allowed on a 15Amp outlet, if the vac was at full power. I'd assume max amperage draw would be approx 12Amps for the vac. So you would only have a small balance of available power remaining.

I agree. I sell a lot of Alto vacs and their engineers have indicated to me that the sticker on the Alto machines (600w max, 500w max with XC models) was there to satisfy UL requirements. The CT36 now comes with a 5-15P plug eliminating the hassle (and cost) of the plugtail adapter. Despite the hefty 12 gauge cord, the CT can now be plugged into any 15 amp convenience outlet . Tool triggered autostart is a great feature/convenience but the use of higher amperage tools (saws, routers, etc) through the AS circuitry will compromise the performance and longevity of both the vacuum and tool. Throw in a 50' or 100' 14 gauge extension cord that most contractors use and you really have a problem.

I received an official response from Festool this morning and it appears they are upset with me for discussing it on this forum. I was trying to tap into the strong presence of Festool dealers who frequent here. SD

Ken Nagrod · « **Reply #15 on:** December 21, 2010, 10:06 AM »

Steve,

So I guess now there's a gag order placed on you? Maybe you should have done it on the Wikileaks site?

I just checked my CT36. At 3.1 amps it's fine. At 3.2 amps it starts melting the top of the vac. At 3.3 amps a fire started and the whole thing went up in flames. Now I need a new vac. Maybe I'll try the Alto.

Gone · « **Reply #16 on:** December 21, 2010, 10:18 AM »

The bottom line is Festool has outlined their specifications to satisfy UL and they or their dealers have the responsibility to follow. What you do with the equipment after purchase is your responsibility and will only come under scrutiny when there is a problem with warranty or problem with the equipment damaging personal property. Whether you can hook up and run an OF2200/CT36 at full load isn't really Festool's concern because they have covered themselves by load statements in the owners manual.

John

Jeff Zanin · « **Reply #17 on:** December 21, 2010, 10:35 AM »

Quote from: ultgar on December 21, 2010, 08:55 AM

<snip>
I received an official response from Festool this morning and it appears they are upset with me for discussing it on this forum. I was trying to tap into the strong presence of Festool dealers who frequent here. SD

I can see why they would be concerned but at the same time there is a broad range of Festool experience and expertise among FOG members, and the opinions range from:

Quote from: Brice Burrell on December 21, 2010, 08:48 AM

<snip>
Forget what the literature says. The vacs are meant to be used with any of the tools we have here in N America. Festool wouldn't sell the tools and vacs packaged together if they didn't intend for you to use them.....

to:

Quote from: junk on December 21, 2010, 10:18 AM

The bottom line is Festool has outlined their specifications to satisfy UL and they or their dealers have the responsibility to follow. What you do with the equipment after purchase is your responsibility and will only come under scrutiny when there is a problem with warranty or problem with the equipment damaging personal property. Whether you can hook up and run an OF2200/CT36 at full load isn't really Festool's concern because they have covered themselves by load statements in the owners manual.

John

both of which sound reasonable to me, but which are a bit contradictory.

So for those that have or are considering one of the new vacs an official response or clarification would be a good thing.

Jeff

ultgar · « **Reply #18 on:** December 21, 2010, 11:18 AM »

Festool is issuing an official position to its dealers which is understandably vague and protects them from liability. It is up to the dealers to interpret/explain this position to their customers. My interpretation as a dealer (Ultimate Garage) would be as follows...........

CT Dust Extractors are engineered to work with ALL Festool power tools assuming the CT is plugged directly into a dedicated 20amp (115-125v, 60hz) circuit without the use of cord extensions. However, there may be compatability issues with non-Festool products (without MMC electronic thermal & overload protection) used in conjunction with the Festool CT vacuums. To ensure maximum performance of ANY power tool used with the CT Extractor, separate circuits should be used for each device. The CT should never be used with a compromised power supply (ie, line voltage less than 110v or greater than 130v).

Steve D'Gerolamo

Jeff Zanin · « **Reply #19 on:** December 21, 2010, 12:53 PM »

Quote from: ultgar on December 21, 2010, 11:18 AM

Festool is issuing an official position to its dealers which is understandably vague and protects them from liability. It is up to the dealers to interpret/explain this position to their customers. My interpretation as a dealer (Ultimate Garage) would be as follows...........

CT Dust Extractors are engineered to work with ALL Festool power tools assuming the CT is plugged directly into a dedicated 20amp (115-125v, 60hz) circuit without the use of cord extensions. However, there may be compatability issues with non-Festool products (without MMC electronic thermal & overload protection) used in conjunction with the Festool CT vacuums. To ensure maximum performance of ANY power tool used with the CT Extractor, separate circuits should be used for each device. The CT should never be used with a compromised power supply (ie, line voltage less than 110v or greater than 130v).

Steve D'Gerolamo

That seems quite reasonable and incorporates the common sense aspects of Brice's comments with an appropriate scope limitation.

I'll have to break the news to Mr. Bosch 4100 that he can no longer use the magic receptacle on the CT...

Jeff

Chris Wong · « **Reply #20 on:** December 21, 2010, 01:17 PM »

Steve,

Thanks for getting to the bottom of this for us. I had the same concern.

Brice Burrell · « **Reply #21 on:** December 21, 2010, 01:29 PM »

Quote from: Jeff Zanin on December 21, 2010, 12:53 PM

That seems quite reasonable and incorporates the common sense aspects of Brice's comments with an appropriate scope limitation.....

The two words in bold are key here. I mean if Festool vacs could only be used with their smaller sanders don't you think Festool would make that very clear. Besides, how many posts have you read here about CT extractors bursting into flames...none (well, actually, only one, but that was the dust in the bag, not the extractor itself).

Pete Pedisich · « **Reply #22 on:** December 21, 2010, 02:02 PM »

I have used my CT22 with the OF1400, TS55, Bosch 13amp circular saw, DW 618 Router on a 15amp circuit, never a problem. I never use an extension cord with my CT22 or my 6 gallon compressor, but tradesmen have no choice often.

Anyone know if the 120 vs 240v issue gives us (in the US/Canada) less real world capacity in the tool receptacle on the CT's?

Alex · « **Reply #23 on:** December 21, 2010, 02:05 PM »

Guys, just get a 230 volts net, all problems solved.

Ken Nagrod · « **Reply #24 on:** December 21, 2010, 02:28 PM »

Quote

Quote from: Pete Pedisich on December 21, 2010, 02:02 PM
I have used my CT22 with the OF1400, TS55, Bosch 13amp circular saw, DW 618 Router on a 15amp circuit, never a problem. I never use an extension cord with my CT22 or my 6 gallon compressor, but tradesmen have no choice often.

Anyone know if the 120 vs 240v issue gives us (in the US/Canada) less real world capacity in the tool receptacle on the CT's?

The basic formula is E=IR. E the voltage, I the current and R the resistance. Doubling the voltage, halves the current while the internal resistance of the CT remains constant, so makes no difference for current draw of the attached tool.
** Nobody from Europe has told us what the max amperage draw is on their CT that runs on approx. 230vac. **

Quote from: Alex on December 21, 2010, 02:05 PM
Guys, just get a 230 volts net, all problems solved.

...or forget about using the CT altogether and call Merry Maids when your done.

Tom Bellemare · « **Reply #25 on:** December 21, 2010, 02:42 PM »

Quote

Anyone know if the 120 vs 240v issue gives us (in the US/Canada) less real world capacity in the tool receptacle on the CT's?

Yes, unless the wiring between the receptacle and the main power bus in the tool was increased for the NA versions.

If these are wired for (and this is just an example) 2300 watts and 230 volts, that would be 10 amps. If I lower the voltage to 115 volts, the same wiring can still only carry 10 amps, so the power capacity is 1150 watts.

I don't know exactly how they were wired, but I use the example above strictly for demonstrative comparison.

The voltage a conductor can handle is dependent on the insulation and most common wiring I've seen can take 600 volts very safely. The current carrying capacity (sometimes called ampacity) is dependent on the conductor (size, configuration, material, and surrounding). So the wire will limit the current but the insulation won't limit the voltage in this case because the voltage is dropping. If the voltage drops and the current remains the same, the power drops proportionately. 1 watt = 1 volt * 1 amp

I see you posted while I was writing this, Ken. I may be wrong but I don't think the wiring's resistance is significant in this analysis.

Tom

Ken Nagrod · « **Reply #26 on:** December 21, 2010, 02:52 PM »

That's why I was curious as to why no one from Europe or other areas that run on 230vac letting us know what their CT's warning label states and with the CT, it's not just about the external wiring you see but also the internals receiving the full ac power before any step down and rectification.

Also, if anyone is just dying to do the math, when talking about power and alternating current, watts = volts x amps x 1.414 (sine wave). When dealing with straight direct current it's only w=va. Sorry for the nerd lesson.

Tom Bellemare · « **Reply #27 on:** December 21, 2010, 03:00 PM »

I hate to make assumptions, but sometimes it helps reason things through... In this case, I'm assuming the receptacle wires directly to the power cord termination, which would mean that wire is the determining factor. Maybe they upgraded it for our lower voltage. That's what I would do.

Tom

Ken Nagrod · « **Reply #28 on:** December 21, 2010, 03:06 PM »

Tom,

In the interest of, well, probably no one, would you be willing to take apart one of your display model CT's so we have an answer.

I'm sure like everyone else here, we'll just keep doing what we've been doing and if something trips and if we're smart, we'll change the way we do it. Happy vacuuming!

Pete Pedisich · « **Reply #29 on:** December 21, 2010, 03:13 PM »

WOW, that stuff is way over my head.

I don't understand electrical, but I do know my CT22 has worked as designed for me for 4 years without an issue! ...maybe I should stop thinking.